Posting with Empathy

[desertIslandCactus]

 

I feel sad that so many people find themselves unable to put themselves in the shoes of another, and perhaps have an understanding of how others might feel in a given set of circumstances. I think you, jthorne, would be one who would naturally have some empathy for those who choose to have an affair, given that it was your choice for many years. Do you think there is a reason that you are unable to cast your mind back and remember why that choice was right for you at the time? As perhaps others are simply where you were then...

 

Mistakes can be followed by remorse, and a turning away from. Anyone who makes mistakes is not doing a favor by encouraging others in the same path.

 

A decision to have an ER was Never right for me. It's something a repentant person remembers with disdain.

 

People know the mechanics of A's, and others' testimonies should be a good reminder of the loss of time, priorities, and destruction involved.

[Silly_Girl]

I'm going to ignore what I perceive as a veiled insult here. However, that is never an issue for me as I am good at picking out people who have the mindset of "screw everyone, as long as I'm happy," and I don't allow them in my circle of friends to begin with.

 

Nope. I wouldn't put you in that category of people.

 

Donna, it wasn't a veiled insult - what you said led me to ask.

[donnamaybe]

Donna, it wasn't a veiled insult - what you said led me to ask.

Well, good. I would hate it if you turned into one of those kind of posters.

[jthorne]

I actually feel happy that people aren't able to come to grips with a mindset that allows for messing with someone else's life without a care for who gets hurt.

Thank you!

[bentnotbroken]

I can see why you'd think that, but it's not the case.

 

I can empathize with someone who wants/needs to change their situation.

 

I can't empathize with someone who posts with no intent to change the situation.

 

The reason I can't is because I can't understand what there would be for me to empathize with if there's no need for support or change when they're in this kind of situation.

 

I struggle to understand a mindset that's ok with being the OW/OM and not wanting some kind of change. That's why I can't empathize with it.

 

Nothing to do with sympathy for someone who WANTS change/support.

 

Simply that they're mindset is something I CAN empathize with...it "makes sense" to me.

 

Someone who comes to a site like this and posts a "I'm in an affair and all is wonderful" post baffles me...because if they're not here for "support", I can't understand why they're here at all. I don't get their goals, their motives for posting, what they hope to gain by posting.

 

So I'm unable to empathize with them.

 

Someone who comes here wanting change of some kind...I can empathize with.

 

So when you ask me if I can empathize with a poster who comes here and isn't hurting/wanting support/seeking some kind of change...I tell you that I personally can't do it, not really.

 

 

I always love your posts. I get it completely.

[jthorne]

Mistakes can be followed by remorse, and a turning away from. Anyone who makes mistakes is not doing a favor by encouraging others in the same path.

 

A decision to have an ER was Never right for me. It's something a repentant person remembers with disdain.

 

People know the mechanics of A's, and others' testimonies should be a good reminder of the loss of time, priorities, and destruction involved.

I agree with this. I'd also add that someone who didn't have empathy for themselves in a certain situation really can't be expected to have empathy for others in it either.

[desertIslandCactus]

 

 

When I talk to a colleague in the kitchen at work, or a friend, or my son, if something has happened to them (does NOT have to be bad, can be something wonderful) I struggle not to feel it a little for them. Our stock controller told me a story a long while ago about a surprise he had for his wife. At the end of Christmas Day he put an envelope at the bottom of the bed where she would be due to get in, and in it were tickets for his wife and her mum to travel from UK to NYC for wife's birthday. It had been a long day, he kept dozing off, he desperately wanted to see her reaction when she discovered she had one more present, and a fantastic one at that.

 

I have never forgotten how he told me that, and also how I felt as he did so. I wouldn't necessarily have felt the same, or done the same, but I felt what I believed to be his emotions at the time.

 

C'mon SG, he was doing something beautiful for his family. Not causing havoc to others' lives.

 

I think I am therefore forced to consider that my inbuilt empathy (which is also where my instinct to play devil's advocate comes from) might be the exception to the rule and that the 'norm' is to have a blanket 'No, I won't be able to understand that POV...

 

There's no "inbuilt empathy" involved with living the A concept.

[Silly_Girl]

 

C'mon SG, he was doing something beautiful for his family. Not causing havoc to others' lives.

 

 

See what you're saying, but... Empathy is empathy; I wasn't talking about validation or support or condoning, just an understanding of how someone WHO ISN'T YOU feels about something.

[jthorne]

 

See what you're saying, but... Empathy is empathy; I wasn't talking about validation or support or condoning, just an understanding of how someone WHO ISN'T YOU feels about something.

But isn't it rather egocentric to expect those that have been in similar situations would have the same understanding?

[Silly_Girl]

But isn't it rather egocentric to expect those that have been in similar situations would have the same understanding?

 

I didn't say there was only one way to feel about something. I didn't say there should be only ONE perspective on something. But I would expect your mind to be more open, to a greater or lesser degree, to how an OW might be feeling than, say, a BS. I think that's reasonable.

 

 

Just wondered if you'd missed this, or just didn't wish to respond.

 

What question jthorne? I said 'I don't expect anyone to pin a medal on my chest for....'

 

You said 'If you don't expect it, then why did you ask the question?'

 

Are you saying I asked for a medal? If so, please quote it clearly. Thanks.

 

I merely said that I felt using empathy was favourable. Because I believe it would lead to improved mutual understanding. Which I personally see as a good thing. Clearly, not everyone would share that view.

 

Not sure why you said THIS to me: I am, however, disturbed that people would come here with the "I'm in an affair, and it's so great" attitude and expect empathy under the tired old guise of "it's a support forum."

 

Was it directed at me or just a general comment?

 

I feel sad that so many people find themselves unable to put themselves in the shoes of another, and perhaps have an understanding of how others might feel in a given set of circumstances. I think you, jthorne, would be one who would naturally have some empathy for those who choose to have an affair, given that it was your choice for many years. Do you think there is a reason that you are unable to cast your mind back and remember why that choice was right for you at the time? As perhaps others are simply where you were then...

[silktricks]

I can see why you'd think that, but it's not the case.

 

I can empathize with someone who wants/needs to change their situation.

 

I can't empathize with someone who posts with no intent to change the situation.

 

The reason I can't is because I can't understand what there would be for me to empathize with if there's no need for support or change when they're in this kind of situation.

 

I struggle to understand a mindset that's ok with being the OW/OM and not wanting some kind of change. That's why I can't empathize with it.

 

Nothing to do with sympathy for someone who WANTS change/support.

 

Simply that they're mindset is something I CAN empathize with...it "makes sense" to me.

 

{snip}

I find this very interesting, because empathy means to me being able to understand when the other person is pretty much nothing like you, nor in accord with you. In other words, if my best friend is hurting because her husband cheated on her, I can feel with her and sympathize with her and show her compassion, and I don't need to express empathy towards her, because I totally get where she is and what she is experiencing.

 

If, however, a friend is in pain because she is cheating on her husband with a woman she met at the gym and doesn't know what to do - in that circumstance I need to have/show empathy, because this is not within the realm of things I could do, nor do I understand it in the slightest. I have to completely step out of myself and my own beliefs so that I can listen to her, and if possible provide a shoulder for her to weep on. I'll give her my opinion on what to do if asked, but if not, then I'll just be someone she can talk with and not worry. I don't approve of her choices, but I accept that she has to live with her choices, not I.

 

I totally get not being able to understand why someone is doing - whatever - but showing kindness and even "supporting" that they are making a choice that they feel is right, while telling them (but in a nice way:)) that you disagree with their choice shows empathy IMO. You do that all the time OWL, so I believe you do show empathy even when you can't "wrap your head around" the choices some people are making .

[desertIslandCactus]

I find this very interesting, because empathy means to me being able to understand when the other person is pretty much nothing like you, nor in accord with you. In other words, if my best friend is hurting because her husband cheated on her, I can feel with her and sympathize with her and show her compassion, and I don't need to express empathy towards her, because I totally get where she is and what she is experiencing.

 

If, however, a friend is in pain because she is cheating on her husband with a woman she met at the gym and doesn't know what to do - in that circumstance I need to have/show empathy, because this is not within the realm of things I could do, nor do I understand it in the slightest. I have to completely step out of myself and my own beliefs so that I can listen to her, and if possible provide a shoulder for her to weep on. I'll give her my opinion on what to do if asked, but if not, then I'll just be someone she can talk with and not worry. I don't approve of her choices, but I accept that she has to live with her choices, not I.

 

I totally get not being able to understand why someone is doing - whatever - but showing kindness and even "supporting" that they are making a choice that they feel is right, while telling them (but in a nice way:)) that you disagree with their choice shows empathy IMO. You do that all the time OWL, so I believe you do show empathy even when you can't "wrap your head around" the choices some people are making .

 

You listed two scenerios where people are either hurting or in pain. And empathy is provided here, for that.

 

But we are speaking of a third version where people are boasting of breaking up M's, and getting 'the love of their life'. .. Obviously no remorse. Not asking for anything but 'empathy' and understanding - while challenging.

[seren]

If it's posting with empathy then I would say that if someone posts that they are hurt, in pain, doesn't understand and is an A, then I can empathise with the emotions involved without agreeing with the A. Obviously as an XBS I will have little to no sympathy for the person's predicament, mainly because I will have empathy with the BS, whether I know them or not. However, I can acknowledge that someone feels a certain way without condoning their actions, which as someone pointed out, would be me validating their actions.

 

If I come onto the OW/OM section of LS I expect there to be posts that I don't agree with, so move along, some threads ask for advice, support with NC or try to understand the A from a BS viewpoint. I feel able to dissasociate from my situation and try to empathise with the emotion and need in the thread without agreeing that A's are good.

When I came to LS it was to understand A's, in the search for understanding I got some very good advice and support from BS and OW/OM, I find it ironic that some of the posts by BS piss me off far more than some of the posts by OW/OM, don't know why that should be as it isn't a club and everyone's reaction to A's will be different. It has nothing to do with my situation, just the posting style of some who refuse to look at situations without anger as it doesn't add or contribute to my understanding.

 

This is not to say I don't think people shouldn't post in anger sometimes, it's understandable. The discussion threads are enlightening and add to my understanding of A's, they will never change my opinion that A's are not all bad, each and every time because they involve hurting someone else at the expense of another. That I will never understand or empathise with, I don't have to experience this to know it and I will say I will never do this. But, posting with empathy for someone who is feeling hurt, yes, because I do understand hurt.

 

It's like watching someone drowning, I can either jump in and drown with them, stand on the side and throw a lifebelt or just yell at them for being so stupid for getting in that situation in the first place. The first would see me in the same mess and possibly drowning myself, the last as just bloody pointless and just noisy, I see the throwing a lifebelt as empathy, I can understand the situation without having to get into the water.

 

Well that's how I see it anyway. For the record, I have made a number of friends on LS and exchanged PM's with both BS and OW/OM and frankly, the labels mean nothing in that context, we can engage in discussion and agree to disagree, but I still like them enormously and will not be bullied into keeping my foot in just the BS camp. I have had a lot of support from both over the years and am grateful for their friendship.

Edited April 4, 2011 by seren
phew missed out a vital not word

[SidLyon]

...will not be bullied into keeping my foot in just the BS camp. ...

 

Seren this caught my eye. I hope I haven't taken it too much out of context.

 

I just wondered if you'd ever felt bullied in this way and if so which "camp" it was that bullied you to stay in your box (either OW or BW or someone else).

 

I've not noticed any bullying of you and to me you seem to be one of the most respected posters on this forum.

[seren]

Hi Sid,

Just something that was posted that rang my bell, suggesting that because my H and I have reconciled that my views would be different had he or I divorced. I have noticed a few snarky posts, not at me necessarily, but at BS who don't throw bricks at OW/OM/WS. I refuse to be labelled because my H had an A and I sure as hell refuse to be labelled because we decided to work on our marriage. I understand people being angry, but not rude. TBH, if it wasn't that I know it would descend into a bitch fest then I might have chosen to respond to better understanding the meaning behind it but, as it is it would be pointless.

 

Thank you for the compliment.

[SidLyon]

Hi Sid,

Just something that was posted that rang my bell, suggesting that because my H and I have reconciled that my views would be different had he or I divorced. I have noticed a few snarky posts, not at me necessarily, but at BS who don't throw bricks at OW/OM/WS. I refuse to be labelled because my H had an A and I sure as hell refuse to be labelled because we decided to work on our marriage. I understand people being angry, but not rude. TBH, if it wasn't that I know it would descend into a bitch fest then I might have chosen to respond to better understanding the meaning behind it but, as it is it would be pointless.

 

Thank you for the compliment.

 

Yes I know the comments you mean. I noticed them too but also decided not to pursue them. I can't remember now whether specific posters were mentioned but I interpreted them as directed generally at people in reconciled marriages.

[jthorne]

Just wondered if you'd missed this, or just didn't wish to respond.

I responded to what I felt pertinent to the discussion.

[White Flower]

If it's posting with empathy then I would say that if someone posts that they are hurt, in pain, doesn't understand and is an A, then I can empathise with the emotions involved without agreeing with the A. Obviously as an XBS I will have little to no sympathy for the person's predicament, mainly because I will have empathy with the BS, whether I know them or not. However, I can acknowledge that someone feels a certain way without condoning their actions, which as someone pointed out, would be me validating their actions.

 

If I come onto the OW/OM section of LS I expect there to be posts that I don't agree with, so move along, some threads ask for advice, support with NC or try to understand the A from a BS viewpoint. I feel able to dissasociate from my situation and try to empathise with the emotion and need in the thread without agreeing that A's are good.

When I came to LS it was to understand A's, in the search for understanding I got some very good advice and support from BS and OW/OM, I find it ironic that some of the posts by BS piss me off far more than some of the posts by OW/OM, don't know why that should be as it isn't a club and everyone's reaction to A's will be different. It has nothing to do with my situation, just the posting style of some who refuse to look at situations without anger as it doesn't add or contribute to my understanding.

 

This is not to say I don't think people shouldn't post in anger sometimes, it's understandable. The discussion threads are enlightening and add to my understanding of A's, they will never change my opinion that A's are not all bad, each and every time because they involve hurting someone else at the expense of another. That I will never understand or empathise with, I don't have to experience this to know it and I will say I will never do this. But, posting with empathy for someone who is feeling hurt, yes, because I do understand hurt.

 

It's like watching someone drowning, I can either jump in and drown with them, stand on the side and throw a lifebelt or just yell at them for being so stupid for getting in that situation in the first place. The first would see me in the same mess and possibly drowning myself, the last as just bloody pointless and just noisy, I see the throwing a lifebelt as empathy, I can understand the situation without having to get into the water.

 

Well that's how I see it anyway. For the record, I have made a number of friends on LS and exchanged PM's with both BS and OW/OM and frankly, the labels mean nothing in that context, we can engage in discussion and agree to disagree, but I still like them enormously and will not be bullied into keeping my foot in just the BS camp. I have had a lot of support from both over the years and am grateful for their friendship.

I can so appreciate this post.

 

And the bolded part is utterly brilliant.

[White Flower]

This is without a doubt some of the most idiotic "logic" I've ever read.

 

Because a fBS chose to forgive their fWS, that explains why the fBS are nice to current and fOW?

 

You have shown your circular logic with that statement. If anything - according to your own assumptions that a marriage can never truly recover from an affair, and that you will forever have bad memories and thoughts - the fBS who chose to stay married would have less reason to be "nice" to folks on this forum.

 

What I don't understand is how so many people who have chosen to leave their WS simply cannot seem to ever move past that one incident. I can understand staying angry with the spouse who hurt you, but even that seems like it should fade with time. To be angry with every person who has ever had an affair, and to be angry with everyone who has chosen to forgive their partner - that seems to show a serious anger issue.

 

Is it that you simply dislike everyone who doesn't agree with you and share your anger?

 

Some people actually can forgive. They really can move past a bad situation. And (back to the crux of this thread) they can show empathy. They can understand what happened in their own marriage - from both their own and their spouses perspectives. The can see the viewpoint of others - even while disagreeing with that viewpoint. That doesn't make them better people, though. Not in any way. It just makes them different.

Great, great post!

 

And I hope this doesn't sound off-putting, but perhaps it DOES make them better. I know that you do not want to say you're better than the person you quoted and I am not saying that either. But if we come FULL circle, past the point of anger, past the point of the work, and finally to the point of forgiveness, and even further, to the point of reconciliation and even on top of that, to the point of understanding with empathy, doesn't that make the person/people stronger, more experienced, and yes better??? I think so.

[White Flower]

Actually, I find this entire thread quite ironic.

 

Most will agree that having an affair is not empathetic. Yet here are some this thread, who have openly admitted not having empathy, suggesting to the rest of us how to post.

 

This is a long thread and I may have missed something, but did these people post somewhere that they would follow their own suggestion?

 

And could someone please explain to me how posting with empathy here on an anonymous internet board means anything if you don't live your life the same way?

jthorne,

 

Please don't take things out of context. While it may have been said that during the A, usually at the beginning (and you should know this since you had an A for 20 years), there comes a moment in which the AP (doesn't matter whether OP or MP) says my needs at this time overcome my sense of empathy for whom this A may hurt. No doubt, that happens, just as it happened to you.

 

This thread is not about that though, even though it has been explained as an aside.

 

And usually, said AP will come back to their senses and realize there have been people hurt and they hurt also so they come here to post about their inner-struggle. THAT is what this discussion is about, and that is where empathy should be displayed. Hey, we know we're in a mess, but I can't hear you try to help me if you can't show a level of empathy or compassion or heck, just plain old sympathy. If you can't relate, perhaps you (general you) should get off this thread because I (general I) am looking for help.

 

If all you're going to do is snipe, make fun, and try to spoof my character, well, they have other places to do that. But I came here for SUPPORT, not to be made fun of.

 

I am empathetic on a daily basis in most every area in my life and if I can't be that, I can at least be compassionate or sympathetic.

 

So you can take your last question and focus my entire life based on that one moment I decided to throw caution into the wind, or you can see me for the entire me which is nothing like that at all.

 

And FWIW, I don't judge you for being an OW 4 times longer than I was.

Edited April 5, 2011 by White Flower

[White Flower]

Because crybabies report them and they get deleted.

Sorry to hear that. I'm hardly on anymore, so don't report. But if you don't want posts removed, perhaps you should be a little kinder in your references? A serious suggestion, and not meaning to poke in any way.

[White Flower]

If he's as bright as she says he is, he will most likely figure it out on his own.

 

Sure, parents do things they aren't proud of, but they usually find ways to make them teachable moments, and continue to be positive role models. I'm having trouble figuring out where obtaining a man by having an affair is a teachable moment for positive behavior.

Believe it or not jthorne, all moments are teachable moments. But we don't have to see them as following in the footsteps moments, unless those footsteps had brilliant outcomes. Sometimes good things come out of As.

 

It's not. that's why he really does not have to know. There is no reason to tell him mommy's boyfriend was married when they got together. no reason at all. Keep the kid well adjusted and from thinking poorly of his mom.

I have no idea if she told him, but that is beside the point. Either way, the child is surely going to see for himself and understand WHY his mom would love this man. He's going to see someone who stopped being in an R that was a sham, that he overcame the need to please everybody, that he did the right thing, and that his mom believes in those principles. All teachable moments.

 

I feel for you. Your need to try to shame this poster must come from a very deep and painful place. I am very sorry, and I sincerely mean that. If you ever want to PM me, I will listen.

[Silly_Girl]

I responded to what I felt pertinent to the discussion.

 

Very good!

[greengoddess]

I have no idea if she told him, but that is beside the point. Either way, the child is surely going to see for himself and understand WHY his mom would love this man. He's going to see someone who stopped being in an R that was a sham, that he overcame the need to please everybody, that he did the right thing, and that his mom believes in those principles. All teachable moments.

 

I feel for you. Your need to try to shame this poster must come from a very deep and painful place. I am very sorry, and I sincerely mean that. If you ever want to PM me, I will listen.

 

:laugh: wow if that is not wearing rose colored glasses. Sorry most people do not see such noble things in the mistresses affair. I think the kid has some really good morals and would think this man is a jerk for not ending is marriage before f$#$ing his mom. I think this kid would seriously wonder why his mom would not wait till he was divorced before jumping in head first. This kid is 14. He knows right from wrong and silly girl has taught him that. He is not going to see an affair through foggy rose colored glasses.

[jthorne]

jthorne,

 

Please don't take things out of context. While it may have been said that during the A, usually at the beginning (and you should know this since you had an A for 20 years), there comes a moment in which the AP (doesn't matter whether OP or MP) says my needs at this time overcome my sense of empathy for whom this A may hurt. No doubt, that happens, just as it happened to you.

 

This thread is not about that though, even though it has been explained as an aside.

 

And usually, said AP will come back to their senses and realize there have been people hurt and they hurt also so they come here to post about their inner-struggle. THAT is what this discussion is about, and that is where empathy should be displayed. Hey, we know we're in a mess, but I can't hear you try to help me if you can't show a level of empathy or compassion or heck, just plain old sympathy. If you can't relate, perhaps you (general you) should get off this thread because I (general I) am looking for help.

 

If all you're going to do is snipe, make fun, and try to spoof my character, well, they have other places to do that. But I came here for SUPPORT, not to be made fun of.

 

I am empathetic on a daily basis in most every area in my life and if I can't be that, I can at least be compassionate or sympathetic.

 

So you can take your last question and focus my entire life based on that one moment I decided to throw caution into the wind, or you can see me for the entire me which is nothing like that at all.

 

And FWIW, I don't judge you for being an OW 4 times longer than I was.

Um, I don't recall responding to you at all, but you might want to consider why you took my words so personally.

 

And since you know I was never an OW for 20 years, I assume that this is your attempt to spoof my character, when I've done nothing to you personally.

So really, the way I'm reading it, you've no more empathy than I.