Posting with Empathy

[tami-chan]

No, he did it himself. He was a great father during the formative years - then blew it with the help of the jealous OW/turned W. Hurt his sons directly, all by himself.

Replace "anger and digust" with 'Opression' - at the time.

 

I am sorry that your xH did that to you and your children. It is difficult when another adult will not even stop to at least do some damage control-and it is more difficult when you cannot do anything about it.

 

As another poster said, responsible adults don't replace their BS lifestyle for that of the OW - without at some point, turning away from it.

Generally, yes. But I think you touched on something there. I do not DEFINE myself as a BS or as an OW in my real life(well, I am no longer either)...On LS, posters somehow have to use it. I am just me-living my life. I think people should actually make an effort to "turn away" from being a BS and stop this "victim mentality".

 

Doesn't look like it so far.

...and your assessment is based on....? you are just making potshots and that is fine (Your God knows, I am more than capable of doing the same) and I thought for a second there you actually wanted to engage in a decent conversation...but so be it...

 

The present circumstances don't have anything to do with 'adult' issues.

Well, she did not grow up to be a fine young adult if her parents did not make an effort to "separate" her of their issues. She was not raised by a mother who was too oppressed and angry to make sure her home was was peaceful and loving. BTW, not sure what you quoted is correct..i think you spliced it....but so you know my present circumstance is I am divorced and my SO is divorced and we all have a good relationship with our exes. Edited April 4, 2011 by tami-chan

[tami-chan]

Rationalizations are tiresome. He needs to be kept "well adjusted and think well of his mom" through lies, nice. He will most likely find out. Better not to be a liar and a cheater maybe? But truly the empathy in it all is underwhelming, another casualty of sneaky, selfish collusion to take away the rights and power of a trusting third party. Wow, that's hot. Ick.

 

I think when an adult makes a decision that is contrary to established societal norms and values-it is a tight rope to walk on. The child does not live in a cocoon but has to deal with that larger community. In my humble opinion, a parent, albeit flawed and imperfect, must find that "appropriate time" to explain the actions (good or bad) that parent has taken. Of course, I am aware that is not always possible.

[donnamaybe]

At some point, one has to be responsible for the consequences of the choices they make. If they make ones that aren't so good and they end up getting hurt, then why should I not feel empathy for them? What is wrong with being kind to another human being who is hurting?

I nearly always feel sympathy for someone hurting, even if they made the bed they now find themselves lying in. I say "nearly always" because SOME people keep doing the same ignorant stuff over and over and over, i.e.asking advice but then ignoring it, and then whining when the expected results come in.

 

For those who go about hurting others with no remorse because they have no vested interest in the outcome, I would never be able to have sympathy for, nor empathise with as I cannot, for the life of me, understand someone with that mindset. Moreover, I kinda dislike people who don't mind hurting others who've done them no wrong.

[Owl]

So again back to the idea...what's the difference between "posting with empathy" and "posting with sympathy"?

 

I can absolutely read a situation where someone is hurting because of their choice to engage in a relationship with someone who's already in a committed relationship, and empathize...can see where they're hurting and why.

 

Which is why my posts are nearly always intended to help that person RESOLVE the situation that's led them to this conflict.

 

I believe that I post with empathy...but not with sympathy...especially in cases where the poster doesn't take action to try to change the situation.

 

But that makes me wonder again if the expectation here is more that people should post with sympathy, not with empathy?

[dreamingoftigers]

I find this endearing because I share many of these traits.

 

I can empathize with someone who made a mistake and is now hurting because of it. Me too.

 

I "rescue" worms on the sidewalk so they don't get stepped on, see response number 223

 

I shoo spiders out of the house rather than squash them, me too, they didn't know that they were in my house! Plus only one of 100 of them make it to adulthood!

 

and felt bad for our old house when we moved- okay that last one is a bit too much over the top:)

 

I felt a bit bad for my old house getting all drafty and neglected for so long. But that's about it.

 

makes me think of the old Ikea add with the lamp that's been put out with the garbage in the rain... voice comes on and asks "do you feel sorry for the porr little lamp? Yes? This is because you are and idiot" and then goes on to talk about all the lamps for sale. I still feeel sorry for the lamp left out in the rain:))

 

That lamp made me feel so rotten! I have trouble throwing stuff away that might be useful. I.e. if every other lamp in the house breaks, we'll use this ugly one!

 

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/04/01/teen-brain-boys-conduct-disorder.html

 

 

Maybe our over-crazy empathy with the little things is a Canadian thing.

[donnamaybe]

This article was of interest to me, as it seemd to apply to the very small number of people who enagge in affairs without any sense of emapthy for those who will be hurt. The ones who don't "turn off " or "ignore" their empathy, but those who do not feel it at all. This would also be true in other areas of their lives as well.

Perhaps these people are not "biologically capable" of empathizing with others.

No, but they are able to pretend to empathize.

 

Kinda scary, that.

[dreamingoftigers]

No, but they are able to pretend to empathize.

 

Kinda scary, that.

 

I really think that this is my husband, he just isn't violent etc.

 

He really does seem to have that blindspot and I have noticed in the last month or so his tone change in spots where there would be empathy but it is often to placate me.

 

The pattern is disturbing and I hope it can be fixed through some EMDR. It did help me to see past some of my own narcissistic behaviours.

[Silly_Girl]

So again back to the idea...what's the difference between "posting with empathy" and "posting with sympathy"?

 

I can absolutely read a situation where someone is hurting because of their choice to engage in a relationship with someone who's already in a committed relationship, and empathize...can see where they're hurting and why.

 

Which is why my posts are nearly always intended to help that person RESOLVE the situation that's led them to this conflict.

 

I believe that I post with empathy...but not with sympathy...especially in cases where the poster doesn't take action to try to change the situation.

 

But that makes me wonder again if the expectation here is more that people should post with sympathy, not with empathy?

 

This post makes absolute sense. I agree with your sentiments.

 

Can you also post with empathy if the poster is not hurting, and not asking for support?

[Owl]

This post makes absolute sense. I agree with your sentiments.

 

Can you also post with empathy if the poster is not hurting, and not asking for support?

 

Personally? Not really.

 

That's why I tend to avoid threads in which someone isn't asking for support, and tend to ask clarifying questions in which the poster's intent is unclear.

 

If they're not looking for support...I don't know that there's any basis for a thread for me to participate in, unless it's a "debate" type thread like this one.

[silktricks]

I do think he has issues with women and quite honestly so do I even though I am working on them. I think it comes from how some women will excuse anything another woman does no matter how wrong it is. Not all women are like this but I notice how some guys get called misogynists on here for telling it like it is about blatantly wrong behavior.

 

I think some women do automatically excuse things women do while they castigate a man who exhibits the same behavior. I honestly don't know if men do the same thing, though they may. Either way, though, it's not a good thing to do. Bad behavior is bad behavior, regardless of which sex is exhibiting it.

[jthorne]

Can you also post with empathy if the poster is not hurting, and not asking for support?

If they are not hurting or needing support, why would they want or expect empathy? If they are "just here for the discussion", I mean. Again, it seems like civility is a reasonable expectation, but if they are not looking for support, and happy with their situation, why would they require empathy? Or are you now confusing empathy with validation?

[dreamingoftigers]

If they are not hurting or needing support, why would they want or expect empathy? If they are "just here for the discussion", I mean.

 

Seems kind of pointless really:

 

"I completely understand your need for discussion, I often find myself wanting to know if confident men fart during sex. I hope that we both can find the answers we have been seeking. If it causes great anxiety to look over the possibilities, I get this too. Let's move forward together.":lmao:

 

I can't believe that topic was a thread today btw.

[WorldIsYours]

This is without a doubt some of the most idiotic "logic" I've ever read.

 

Because a fBS chose to forgive their fWS, that explains why the fBS are nice to current and fOW?

 

You have shown your circular logic with that statement. If anything - according to your own assumptions that a marriage can never truly recover from an affair, and that you will forever have bad memories and thoughts - the fBS who chose to stay married would have less reason to be "nice" to folks on this forum.

 

What I don't understand is how so many people who have chosen to leave their WS simply cannot seem to ever move past that one incident. I can understand staying angry with the spouse who hurt you, but even that seems like it should fade with time. To be angry with every person who has ever had an affair, and to be angry with everyone who has chosen to forgive their partner - that seems to show a serious anger issue.

 

Is it that you simply dislike everyone who doesn't agree with you and share your anger?

 

Some people actually can forgive. They really can move past a bad situation. And (back to the crux of this thread) they can show empathy. They can understand what happened in their own marriage - from both their own and their spouses perspectives. The can see the viewpoint of others - even while disagreeing with that viewpoint. That doesn't make them better people, though. Not in any way. It just makes them different.

 

.............

[Silly_Girl]

If they are not hurting or needing support, why would they want or expect empathy? If they are "just here for the discussion", I mean. Again, it seems like civility is a reasonable expectation, but if they are not looking for support, and happy with their situation, why would they require empathy? Or are you now confusing empathy with validation?

 

No, no I'm not. What disturbs you about this statement: 'I believe that in a debating situation or when offering advice and support, the said offering is likely to be more pertinent, and better received, if empathy is used'.

 

I find some exchanges stimulating, interesting and like to have my horizons widened. I don't expect anyone to pin a medal on my chest for how I ended up with the love of my life.

[WorldIsYours]

I find some exchanges stimulating, interesting and like to have my horizons widened. I don't expect anyone to pin a medal on my chest for how I ended up with the love of my life.

 

Yet you're on here all the time talking about how good your affair is, when in reality it is false.

[Silly_Girl]

Personally? Not really.

 

That's why I tend to avoid threads in which someone isn't asking for support, and tend to ask clarifying questions in which the poster's intent is unclear.

 

If they're not looking for support...I don't know that there's any basis for a thread for me to participate in, unless it's a "debate" type thread like this one.

 

Owl, I asked: can you also post with empathy if the poster is not hurting or asking for support.

 

 

Your answer makes me wonder whether it's you who's mixing up sympathy with empathy.... Do you see why I'd say that?

[Owl]

Owl, I asked: can you also post with empathy if the poster is not hurting or asking for support.

 

 

Your answer makes me wonder whether it's you who's mixing up sympathy with empathy.... Do you see why I'd say that?

 

I can see why you'd think that, but it's not the case.

 

I can empathize with someone who wants/needs to change their situation.

 

I can't empathize with someone who posts with no intent to change the situation.

 

The reason I can't is because I can't understand what there would be for me to empathize with if there's no need for support or change when they're in this kind of situation.

 

I struggle to understand a mindset that's ok with being the OW/OM and not wanting some kind of change. That's why I can't empathize with it.

 

Nothing to do with sympathy for someone who WANTS change/support.

 

Simply that they're mindset is something I CAN empathize with...it "makes sense" to me.

 

Someone who comes to a site like this and posts a "I'm in an affair and all is wonderful" post baffles me...because if they're not here for "support", I can't understand why they're here at all. I don't get their goals, their motives for posting, what they hope to gain by posting.

 

So I'm unable to empathize with them.

 

Someone who comes here wanting change of some kind...I can empathize with.

 

So when you ask me if I can empathize with a poster who comes here and isn't hurting/wanting support/seeking some kind of change...I tell you that I personally can't do it, not really.

[jthorne]

No, no I'm not. What disturbs you about this statement: 'I believe that in a debating situation or when offering advice and support, the said offering is likely to be more pertinent, and better received, if empathy is used'.

 

I find some exchanges stimulating, interesting and like to have my horizons widened. I don't expect anyone to pin a medal on my chest for how I ended up with the love of my life.

If you don't expect it, then why did you ask the question?

 

I'm not disturbed by your quoted statement, I'm not sure why you would make that assumption. I am, however, disturbed that people would come here with the "I'm in an affair, and it's so great" attitude and expect empathy under the tired old guise of "it's a support forum."

 

I fail to see the point.

[dreamingoftigers]

I can see why you'd think that, but it's not the case.

 

I can empathize with someone who wants/needs to change their situation.

 

I can't empathize with someone who posts with no intent to change the situation.

 

The reason I can't is because I can't understand what there would be for me to empathize with if there's no need for support or change when they're in this kind of situation.

 

I struggle to understand a mindset that's ok with being the OW/OM and not wanting some kind of change. That's why I can't empathize with it.

 

Nothing to do with sympathy for someone who WANTS change/support.

 

Simply that they're mindset is something I CAN empathize with...it "makes sense" to me.

 

Someone who comes to a site like this and posts a "I'm in an affair and all is wonderful" post baffles me...because if they're not here for "support", I can't understand why they're here at all. I don't get their goals, their motives for posting, what they hope to gain by posting.

 

So I'm unable to empathize with them.

 

Someone who comes here wanting change of some kind...I can empathize with.

 

So when you ask me if I can empathize with a poster who comes here and isn't hurting/wanting support/seeking some kind of change...I tell you that I personally can't do it, not really.

 

Actually those types of posts usually spur me into trying to get them to empathize with others or I go for the "error in logic" approach. Most of the "My affair is wonderous and he/she is going to leave and we are going to run away to Candyland" posts tend to be rife with irrational assumptions.

 

Posting about finding a partner that can self-manage (OW/OM case) or becoming a partner that can self-manage (MM/MW case and sometimes OW/OM) seems to be the only way to approach the poster. Although in my case, my anger sometimes creeps up a bit to much in the posting because I can often empathize with the BS when a WS is completely unattached and disconnected.

[Silly_Girl]

No, no I'm not. What disturbs you about this statement: 'I believe that in a debating situation or when offering advice and support, the said offering is likely to be more pertinent, and better received, if empathy is used'.

 

I find some exchanges stimulating, interesting and like to have my horizons widened. I don't expect anyone to pin a medal on my chest for how I ended up with the love of my life.

 

If you don't expect it, then why did you ask the question?

 

I'm not disturbed by your quoted statement, I'm not sure why you would make that assumption. I am, however, disturbed that people would come here with the "I'm in an affair, and it's so great" attitude and expect empathy under the tired old guise of "it's a support forum."

 

I fail to see the point.

 

What question jthorne? I said 'I don't expect anyone to pin a medal on my chest for....'

 

You said 'If you don't expect it, then why did you ask the question?'

 

Are you saying I asked for a medal? If so, please quote it clearly. Thanks.

 

I merely said that I felt using empathy was favourable. Because I believe it would lead to improved mutual understanding. Which I personally see as a good thing. Clearly, not everyone would share that view.

 

Not sure why you said THIS to me: I am, however, disturbed that people would come here with the "I'm in an affair, and it's so great" attitude and expect empathy under the tired old guise of "it's a support forum."

 

Was it directed at me or just a general comment?

 

I feel sad that so many people find themselves unable to put themselves in the shoes of another, and perhaps have an understanding of how others might feel in a given set of circumstances. I think you, jthorne, would be one who would naturally have some empathy for those who choose to have an affair, given that it was your choice for many years. Do you think there is a reason that you are unable to cast your mind back and remember why that choice was right for you at the time? As perhaps others are simply where you were then...

[donnamaybe]

I feel sad that so many people find themselves unable to put themselves in the shoes of another

I actually feel happy that people aren't able to come to grips with a mindset that allows for messing with someone else's life without a care for who gets hurt.

[Silly_Girl]

I can see why you'd think that, but it's not the case.

 

I can empathize with someone who wants/needs to change their situation.

 

I can't empathize with someone who posts with no intent to change the situation.

 

The reason I can't is because I can't understand what there would be for me to empathize with if there's no need for support or change when they're in this kind of situation.

 

I struggle to understand a mindset that's ok with being the OW/OM and not wanting some kind of change. That's why I can't empathize with it.

 

Nothing to do with sympathy for someone who WANTS change/support.

 

Simply that they're mindset is something I CAN empathize with...it "makes sense" to me.

 

Someone who comes to a site like this and posts a "I'm in an affair and all is wonderful" post baffles me...because if they're not here for "support", I can't understand why they're here at all. I don't get their goals, their motives for posting, what they hope to gain by posting.

 

So I'm unable to empathize with them.

 

Someone who comes here wanting change of some kind...I can empathize with.

 

So when you ask me if I can empathize with a poster who comes here and isn't hurting/wanting support/seeking some kind of change...I tell you that I personally can't do it, not really.

 

Owl, if I posted and said 'hey, these are the reasons I am happy with my situation...' and listed them all, you would say 'no, I can't understand why, I cannot begin to see how you can be happy; I think your reasons are therefore wrong... unless you want to change your life I cannot understand your reasoning or your feelings'. Even if my reasons were the most convincing and honorable in the world (let's say) would you still say you just 'do not get it'?

 

I KNOW full well I am taking it to extreme here, but I really am intrigued.

 

I found this very interesting:

 

The reason I can't is because I can't understand what there would be for me to empathize with if there's no need for support or change when they're in this kind of situation.

 

This is quite stark and I wonder whether lots of other people feel that way.

 

When I talk to a colleague in the kitchen at work, or a friend, or my son, if something has happened to them (does NOT have to be bad, can be something wonderful) I struggle not to feel it a little for them. Our stock controller told me a story a long while ago about a surprise he had for his wife. At the end of Christmas Day he put an envelope at the bottom of the bed where she would be due to get in, and in it were tickets for his wife and her mum to travel from UK to NYC for wife's birthday. It had been a long day, he kept dozing off, he desperately wanted to see her reaction when she discovered she had one more present, and a fantastic one at that.

 

I have never forgotten how he told me that, and also how I felt as he did so. I wouldn't necessarily have felt the same, or done the same, but I felt what I believed to be his emotions at the time.

 

So he wasn't asking for help, or sympathy, but I automatically put myself in his shoes. I do it ALL the time. I don't know how not to. This is one teeny tiny example, I have posted previously about how my being too empathetic could lead to blurred boundaries because it is TOO EASY for me to see someone else's point of view (regardless of whether I agree) and that might lead to a greater likelihood of forgiveness.

 

I don't need to be asked for help to hear someone speak and attempt to understand where they are coming from. That is why I have been shocked. Not at certain posters, they are what they are and this place must serve a purpose for them.

 

But there are others who are clearly articulate and emotionally intelligent. So when they simply CANNOT see why someone else may feel as they do (particularly if they were once there themselves) it greatly surprises me.

 

I think I am therefore forced to consider that my inbuilt empathy (which is also where my instinct to play devil's advocate comes from) might be the exception to the rule and that the 'norm' is to have a blanket 'No, I won't be able to understand that POV...'.

[Silly_Girl]

I actually feel happy that people aren't able to come to grips with a mindset that allows for messing with someone else's life without a care for who gets hurt.

 

Are you one of those people who is only someone's friend all the while they do as you want?

 

Good to see your comment isn't directed at me, because I did care who got hurt, very much. I attempted to minimise that aspect wherever possible. Still do.

[dreamingoftigers]

I would say that the divide may come at: feeling empathy, and empathizing.

 

For instance as an OW, you may feel empathy for the BS, but empathizing would include making actions to lessen her pain, most likely giving up on the MM.

 

(I say this from a purely academic perspective)

 

As Owl's stance on posting goes: he may have feelings of empathy for a poster in question (i.e. he understands that they are happy and perceives it) but by empathizing with them, it could easily be construed as support for their stance and thereby enabling their behaviours that he does not agree with to continue.

 

Call me out if I am wrong, Owl

[donnamaybe]

Are you one of those people who is only someone's friend all the while they do as you want?

I'm going to ignore what I perceive as a veiled insult here. However, that is never an issue for me as I am good at picking out people who have the mindset of "screw everyone, as long as I'm happy," and I don't allow them in my circle of friends to begin with.

 

Good to see your comment isn't directed at me, because I did care who got hurt, very much. I attempted to minimise that aspect wherever possible. Still do.

Nope. I wouldn't put you in that category of people.