Posting with Empathy

[herenow]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empathy

 

Empathy is not sympathy, or compassion. If you feel less empathy for someone you disapprove, that's not empathy.

 

 

Yes, that's right.

 

See, here is the thing. It is impossible for me to have empathy for an OW. Why? Because I really don't understand what it is like to be an OW or why anyone would knowingly become an OW.

 

To be able to empathize, one has to be able to (as the definition says) live somewhat vicariously through another person. I can't do that with an OW, therefor, I can't empathize with her.

 

However I can be sympathetic and/or compassionate without the need to understand an OW's actions. I would imagine there are OW's who feel the same way towards BW's.

[Silly_Girl]

Yes, that's right.

 

See, here is the thing. It is impossible for me to have empathy for an OW. Why? Because I really don't understand what it is like to be an OW or why anyone would knowingly become an OW.

 

Would you be able to elaborate? Why can't you see how it could come about that someone would meet someone and become involved, despite realising they have a spouse?

 

You don't condone or accept their actions, but can you really never get a feel for how it might come about?

 

I watch all sort of crime forensic rubbish (when I'm working late, it's the equivalent to me, of having the 'wireless' on ) and I can get what caused some nutjob to slash his aunty then kill her chickens (or whatever). It's wrong and sick, but I can see how HE ended up there.

[seren]

I think that empathy, for me at least, is being able to try and see things from the others viewpoint. That's not to say that I have to agree with their actions, but to understand that their actions may have caused hurt, confusion, happiness etc and to look past their actions and concentrate on the emotions involved. No one is non judgemental, it is human nature to judge another as I think it is how we measure our own self worth. So, empathising must surely mean temporarily suspending those judgemental attitudes to reach the person behind the act (now have confused myself).

 

I can support a AP if they need support or are hurt because those are emotions I can understand, I could not empathise with an A, but I can empathise with the feelings of a person who is hurt. I can understand someone who is in love and wants to shout it from the rooftops I don't understand someone doing so, knowing another is going to be decieved and hurt. So while I understand one I can empathise with the other.

 

Posting with empathy is often difficult, especially in the threads where gloating, bashing or just sniping goes on and it works both ways. Very often people come to the site looking for support with hurt and the main point of support is lost in the one liners that repeat over and over the same thing with nothing to add to the posters need. At times I have found some of the gloaty threads distasteful and often full of self justification or validating the why's of an A, or revenge. TBH I would rather someone in an A had no empathy for the BS, to say that they are emapthetic toward the BS and then still have an A is, IMO, patronising and selfish. If you are going to stab me (general) in the back, do it in cold blood with no feeling, don't do it all apologetic and trying to understand it, just do it. It is far more honest, lacks empathy of course, but I don't get half assed empathy toward A's at least.

 

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you is a good yardstick and suggests empathy as its underlying value.

[herenow]

Would you be able to elaborate? Why can't you see how it could come about that someone would meet someone and become involved, despite realising they have a spouse?

 

You don't condone or accept their actions, but can you really never get a feel for how it might come about?

 

I watch all sort of crime forensic rubbish (when I'm working late, it's the equivalent to me, of having the 'wireless' on ) and I can get what caused some nutjob to slash his aunty then kill her chickens (or whatever). It's wrong and sick, but I can see how HE ended up there.

 

I guess it's because it isn't something I would do, so I can't relate. IMO, affairs cause pain. Sometimes to everyone involved. I just can't understand how someone could willingly get involved in something that could cause pain to themselves and/or others.

 

I would never, and have never, told any OW that the choice she made for herself was wrong for her. I have no right to do that. But, I do know that it is a choice I find to be destructive and not a road I would travel on. I can't empathize with the choice to be an OW because I can't relate.

 

To empathize, there needs to be some sort of understanding. I just don't understand. Believe me, I have tried, but I really can't find any justification. So for now I will stick to sympathy and compassion as options.

[Silly_Girl]

I guess it's because it isn't something I would do, so I can't relate. IMO, affairs cause pain. Sometimes to everyone involved. I just can't understand how someone could willingly get involved in something that could cause pain to themselves and/or others.

 

I would never, and have never, told any OW that the choice she made for herself was wrong for her. I have no right to do that. But, I do know that it is a choice I find to be destructive and not a road I would travel on. I can't empathize with the choice to be an OW because I can't relate.

 

To empathize, there needs to be some sort of understanding. I just don't understand. Believe me, I have tried, but I really can't find any justification. So for now I will stick to sympathy and compassion as options.

 

I definitely wasn't criticising, I have found lots of your posts clear and functional, not malicious. I was just curious. I have posted before about the fact I think I am TOO empathetic. I feel as though I can see, literally, ANY viewpoint, and that is good. It means I am a great friend, and gives me an edge often in work scenarios, but I also find it leads to fuzzy boundaries in my most personal relationships because I 'understand' (aka forgive/accept) more than the next person would, and it shouldn't lead to that.

 

My son is his dad in 99% of ways, but he has this empathy that scores him excellent results in drama, religion and debating, even though his main skills are boy-skills (maths, science, computing). As he grows in front of my eyes and shows empathy and understanding, it makes me think harder about us adults (us on LS) versus these teenage boys! And we don't always measure up very well at all.

[mizliz]

I think that empathy, for me at least, is being able to try and see things from the others viewpoint. That's not to say that I have to agree with their actions, but to understand that their actions may have caused hurt, confusion, happiness etc and to look past their actions and concentrate on the emotions involved. No one is non judgemental, it is human nature to judge another as I think it is how we measure our own self worth. So, empathising must surely mean temporarily suspending those judgemental attitudes to reach the person behind the act (now have confused myself).

 

I can support a AP if they need support or are hurt because those are emotions I can understand, I could not empathise with an A, but I can empathise with the feelings of a person who is hurt. I can understand someone who is in love and wants to shout it from the rooftops I don't understand someone doing so, knowing another is going to be decieved and hurt. So while I understand one I can empathise with the other.

 

Posting with empathy is often difficult, especially in the threads where gloating, bashing or just sniping goes on and it works both ways. Very often people come to the site looking for support with hurt and the main point of support is lost in the one liners that repeat over and over the same thing with nothing to add to the posters need. At times I have found some of the gloaty threads distasteful and often full of self justification or validating the why's of an A, or revenge. TBH I would rather someone in an A had no empathy for the BS, to say that they are emapthetic toward the BS and then still have an A is, IMO, patronising and selfish. If you are going to stab me (general) in the back, do it in cold blood with no feeling, don't do it all apologetic and trying to understand it, just do it. It is far more honest, lacks empathy of course, but I don't get half assed empathy toward A's at least.

 

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you is a good yardstick and suggests empathy as its underlying value.

 

Great post, Seren. The bolded being the truth of empathy "in action". Regrettably, I have failed miserably in this regard, and am in the process of recovering from having betrayed such a core value - one that I honestly hold.

 

As a woman who thought of herself as fairly empathetic, I found myself without empathy towards MM's wife. I often felt badly, but it was most assuredly not empathy.

[Silly_Girl]

Uh huh. You're right, why bother aspiring for human decency? We should just let this whole thing devolve into forum "survivor". Awesome.

 

Shee-ite.

 

How did I miss this?!

 

It's a great point

[herenow]

I definitely wasn't criticising, I have found lots of your posts clear and functional, not malicious. I was just curious. I have posted before about the fact I think I am TOO empathetic. I feel as though I can see, literally, ANY viewpoint, and that is good. It means I am a great friend, and gives me an edge often in work scenarios, but I also find it leads to fuzzy boundaries in my most personal relationships because I 'understand' (aka forgive/accept) more than the next person would, and it shouldn't lead to that.

 

My son is his dad in 99% of ways, but he has this empathy that scores him excellent results in drama, religion and debating, even though his main skills are boy-skills (maths, science, computing). As he grows in front of my eyes and shows empathy and understanding, it makes me think harder about us adults (us on LS) versus these teenage boys! And we don't always measure up very well at all.

 

I didn't feel criticized. I thought it was a good question.

 

One of the reasons I came here was to try and gain some empathy for OW's. But, as I read the heartbreaking stories of many (not all) OW's on LS, it just reinforced my lack of empathy for the situation.

 

I know infidelity is a fact. I accept it. I can empathize with many people in many situations, but not infidelity. If I am to be totally honest, I'll tell you that I really don't want to anymore. I'll stay happily ignorant when it comes to being part of an affair.

 

Now, if I were lose my ability to be sympathetic or feel compassion for people no matter what their personal choices are, I will have to do what it takes to fix that.

[WorldIsYours]

You're misusing the word empathy with validation regarding cheaters and OM/OW. And there's no empathy from me for people who consciously, and foolishly hurt themselves and other people by engaging in infidelity and talk about how they like it.

[WorldIsYours]

I didn't feel criticized. I thought it was a good question.

 

One of the reasons I came here was to try and gain some empathy for OW's. But, as I read the heartbreaking stories of many (not all) OW's on LS, it just reinforced my lack of empathy for the situation.

 

I know infidelity is a fact. I accept it. I can empathize with many people in many situations, but not infidelity. If I am to be totally honest, I'll tell you that I really don't want to anymore. I'll stay happily ignorant when it comes to being part of an affair.

 

Now, if I were lose my ability to be sympathetic or feel compassion for people no matter what their personal choices are, I will have to do what it takes to fix that.

 

Don't worry ma'am, I'm right there with you. You're not ignorant for seeing the facts about participants of infidelity.

[BB07]

I have posted before about the fact I think I am TOO empathetic. I feel as though I can see, literally, ANY viewpoint, and that is good. It means I am a great friend, and gives me an edge often in work scenarios, but I also find it leads to fuzzy boundaries in my most personal relationships because I 'understand' (aka forgive/accept) more than the next person would, and it shouldn't lead to that.

 

SG..........I can so relate to the above. I think it comes from my background and good and bad experiences in my life. I often times have been too forgiving and understanding when I care about someone. I have loved too much, forgiven too much when it shouldn't have happened in the first place if not for my fuzzy boundaries and I'm not just speaking of my affair relationship, other relationships also. I am determined not to allow myself to go there again.

[dreamingoftigers]

Don't worry ma'am, I'm right there with you. You're not ignorant for seeing the facts about participants of infidelity.

 

I have an average amount of empathy according to the test, but it is hardly scientific.

 

When joining LS, I had 100% no empathy for those involved in affairs, including my own husband. Over the last year having read many posts of WS/BS/OW/OM I have come to believe that many affairs are based on pain and/or entitlement arising from stupidity. Or a combination of both.

 

Often people feel that there current emotional situation with their spouse is in some way unfixable/inescapable but they still have such strong attachments (sometimes even dependencies) on their spouse that they don't wish to leave them outright but seek relief in inappropriate and complicating ways. Relationships with others can feel highly reward

[bentnotbroken]

I think that perhaps there might be some confusion here between two similar words...empathy and sympathy.

 

I believe that I'm a pretty empathic poster here on LS. I try to see things from the other person's viewpoint, and try to post my advice and support accordingly.

 

But, while I may feel empathy for someone who is hurting, I don't always show sympathy for someone who created their own pain.

 

I would argue that I think that there are many posters on here who post similarly...on all three sides of the triangle.

 

I would also point out that many, many people have trouble putting themselves "in the other person's shoes" when it may force them to have a more critical view of their own actions/morals/etc...

 

Many BS's have trouble feeling empathy (or sympathy) for OW/OM.

 

Many OW/OM here on LS have trouble feeling empathy (or sympathy) for a BS.

 

To do so in either case forces you to realize that your viewpoint may differ radically from theirs. I had to learn that all OW/OM aren't evil. I would also add that it is difficult for OW/OM to do the same towards the BS, because it might also force them to see the impacts of their own actions/morals in a different light...and that is exactly why I believe that some of the OW/OM posting here have such an "issue" with BS's being here.

 

I haven't bothered to take the test in the beginning of this thread...I'm comfortable enough with where I'm at not to care what this kind of test might say about me one way or another.

 

Here, here. I love this...Oh, wise one.

[dreamingoftigers]

Damn phone!

 

Anyways: they can be highly rewarding even addictive. What the WS may nit realize (and often doesn't ) is that that 'high' comes at the expense of something. All of that 'happy energy' does not magically appear for free, it either comes at the expense of the marriage, the OW/M's happiness, the stability of the children etc etc.

 

Affairs may feel good for a time but the price exacted is very high and quite painful, like a high-interest credit card. I empathize for those involved in them now because they often don't see the effects of the 'purchase' they have made.

 

However I do not empathize with people who strike at my character in slanderous ways to try to make their points. You know who you are.

[highviolet]

So if I am to understand this right, empathy is putting yourself in someone else's shoes to understand thier motivations for their actions, so why can't someone do that for an OW just because they could never be one themselves?

 

Isn't that the point of putting yourself in someone else's shoes? Looking at it from another person's perspective, not your own?

[wheelwright]

 

Posting with empathy is often difficult, especially in the threads where gloating, bashing or just sniping goes on and it works both ways. Very often people come to the site looking for support with hurt and the main point of support is lost in the one liners that repeat over and over the same thing with nothing to add to the posters need. At times I have found some of the gloaty threads distasteful and often full of self justification or validating the why's of an A, or revenge. TBH I would rather someone in an A had no empathy for the BS, to say that they are emapthetic toward the BS and then still have an A is, IMO, patronising and selfish. If you are going to stab me (general) in the back, do it in cold blood with no feeling, don't do it all apologetic and trying to understand it, just do it. It is far more honest, lacks empathy of course, but I don't get half assed empathy toward A's at least.

 

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you is a good yardstick and suggests empathy as its underlying value.

 

This was a great post. I cut some, but only for brevity. Go back and learn.

 

I read something very interesting the other day. A person's account of having perfect empathy. There is a physiological (?) disorder which mean you feel perfectly what others around you are feeling. It's called mirror touch sydrome. So this woman can see someone getting hit, and she actually blacks out as if she were hit herself. She walks into a room and feels what everyone is feeling. I can't begin to imagine how it feels to be her.

 

There is a way of feeling the pain of others which halts your own ability to thrive. And there are also people who never know what this feels like.

 

All things under the sun.

[WorldIsYours]

So if I am to understand this right, empathy is putting yourself in someone else's shoes to understand thier motivations for their actions, so why can't someone do that for an OW just because they could never be one themselves?

 

Because their selfish actions hurt innocent bystanders. They knowingly inflict pain on others around them and do not care. Those types of people do not deserve "empathy." And besides, we can ask cheaters and OM/OW the same question. Why won't they put themselves in the betrayed spouse's shoes. How would they feel if someone they loved cheated on them?

 

Isn't that the point of putting yourself in someone else's shoes? Looking at it from another person's perspective, not your own?

 

That's not the point of empathy. What you're referring to is validation.

[WorldIsYours]

When joining LS, I had 100% no empathy for those involved in affairs, including my own husband. Over the last year having read many posts of WS/BS/OW/OM I have come to believe that many affairs are based on pain and/or entitlement arising from stupidity. Or a combination of both.

 

Stupidity is a part of it, but it's all conscious selfishness at the end of the day. Unremorsefulness.

[highviolet]

Because their selfish actions hurt innocent bystanders. They knowingly inflict pain on others around them and do not care. Those types of people do not deserve "empathy." And besides, we can ask cheaters and OM/OW the same question. Why won't they put themselves in the betrayed spouse's shoes. How would they feel if someone they loved cheated on them?

 

So you're saying that you could empathize, but you choose not to because you feel they don't deserve it. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

That's not the point of empathy. What you're referring to is validation.

 

Ummm no. I'm not. I thought someone had defined empathy as putting yourself in someone else's place. If I am mistaken by the definition, sorry, but I don't think that what I am describing is validation. No one said they have to agree with it just because you see it from their perspective.

 

 

sigh..... :confused::bunny:

[herenow]

So if I am to understand this right, empathy is putting yourself in someone else's shoes to understand thier motivations for their actions, so why can't someone do that for an OW just because they could never be one themselves?

 

Isn't that the point of putting yourself in someone else's shoes? Looking at it from another person's perspective, not your own?

 

Just from my completely honest POV, it's very difficult to picture myself in a situation that I feel can cause pain to me or others. I don't want to ever walk in those shoes and I don't understand why other women choose to do so.

 

However, I respect others to make the choice that best suits them.

 

Again, empathy isn't the same as sympathy or compassion. I can have sympathy for an OW who is hurt by an affair. I can have compassion for a woman who is lied to by a MM. Can't do the empathy thing because I don't have that king of understanding.

Edited March 29, 2011 by herenow

[desertIslandCactus]

Damn phone!

 

Anyways: they can be highly rewarding even addictive. What the WS may nit realize (and often doesn't ) is that that 'high' comes at the expense of something. All of that 'happy energy' does not magically appear for free, it either comes at the expense of the marriage, the OW/M's happiness, the stability of the children etc etc.

 

Affairs may feel good for a time but the price exacted is very high and quite painful, like a high-interest credit card. I empathize for those involved in them now because they often don't see the effects of the 'purchase' they have made.

 

 

Yes, another member referred to the 'honeymoon' stages of her F's affairs.

[mizliz]

This was a great post. I cut some, but only for brevity. Go back and learn.

 

I read something very interesting the other day. A person's account of having perfect empathy. There is a physiological (?) disorder which mean you feel perfectly what others around you are feeling. It's called mirror touch sydrome. So this woman can see someone getting hit, and she actually blacks out as if she were hit herself. She walks into a room and feels what everyone is feeling. I can't begin to imagine how it feels to be her.

 

There is a way of feeling the pain of others which halts your own ability to thrive. And there are also people who never know what this feels like.

 

All things under the sun.

 

That sounds horrible on the first take. However, it is a fascinating concept. Imagine what the world would look like if we all physically felt one anothers pain?

 

Might be in our best interests to avoid hurting each other, yes?

[WorldIsYours]

So you're saying that you could empathize, but you choose not to because you feel they don't deserve it. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

Empathy and cheating simply don't relate.

 

Ummm no. I'm not. I thought someone had defined empathy as putting yourself in someone else's place. If I am mistaken by the definition, sorry, but I don't think that what I am describing is validation.

 

Validation is exactly what you're describing.

 

No one said they have to agree with it just because you see it from their perspective.

 

Yet you're wondering why people do not validate/agree with a cheater's manipulative decisions.

[highviolet]

Just from my completely honest POV, it's very difficult to picture myself in a situation that I feel can cause pain to me or others. I don't want to ever walk in those shoes and I don't understand why other women choose to do so.

 

However, I respect others to make the choice that best suits them.

 

 

Thanks for the answer, I totally respect that and get where you're coming from.

 

See, I'm empathizing! Even though I don't agree! lol, I'm just kidding, I really do appreciate the answer.

[herenow]

Thanks for the answer, I totally respect that and get where you're coming from.

 

See, I'm empathizing! Even though I don't agree! lol, I'm just kidding, I really do appreciate the answer.

 

This has been a good conversation thread.