Posting with Empathy

[OWoman]

Sorry, but I think empathy test is "bunk".

 

I say this because if my daughter, who has Asperger's syndrome, were to take the test, her score would indicate that she has little empathy, when in fact, she has a bit too much emapthy ( she feels bad for everyone and everything that she thinks may be hurting either physically or mentally, to the point that it makes it hard for her to function at times... she takes on all the pain and hurt as her own... she cried when the sick tree in our front yard was cut down because it meant that the tree got hurt... I must admit though, I felt bad too). She joined PETA to help "the animals that were being hurt" and Amnesty International to help "the people that were being hurt"

She just can't "read people" in face to face situations- she can't tell from non-verbal ques like tone of voice, body language or facial expressions how someone is feeling. This is actually rather common.

 

The opposite is also true- people with anti social personality disorder are often extremely adept at "reading people". This is part of what allows them to often be very socialable and to "fit in" so well in social groups ( e.g.-Ted Bundy, Mrs. and Mrs. Holmolka, the "BTK" killer and many other examples who "use" people without actually physically harming them) They can easily "read" peoples non-verbal ques and change their behavior accordingly. However, they do not have the ability to actually "empathize" even though, on the surface, they may seem to. The feelings of another just don't register with them.

 

This is why tests like this, taken in isolation, really don't mean much.

 

Yes - I agree with your points. I'm not sure of the status of the test - it was published in the magazine section of the paper, which ordinarily would undermine any faith I'd have in such a thing, but Simon Baron-Cohen is a very reputable scholar and if he'd had any editorial input in the article (or choice of accompanying matter) then it may have some validity. IDK. While I scored very highly on it, I don't think that that is necessarily a good thing. I think a very high score could also indicate weak boundaries - for example, questions which ask whether one could make decisions without being influenced by other people's feelings. If you answer "strongly disagree" then you should not seek a career as a judge, or even accept jury duty, or even a management position; OTOH, if you answer "strongly agree", should you be in management, or politics, or any kind of service profession? Clearly, the answer to that question would depend on the context in which it was asked. The degree of influence should be determined by the level of appropriateness - if you're running for class captain at primary school, then it matters that you are sympathetic to the views and feelings of your classmates rather than standing firmly by some Higher Principle. If, OTOH, you are determining whether someone who shot their partner at point blank range is guilty of murder or not, you need to apply the strict tenets of the law and not be swayed by emotive considerations.

 

WRT your daughter, I can really relate as I was the same as a child (on the lack of boundaries side, not on the Asperger's side - though that diagnosis wasn't around back in the Dark Ages! And certainly not for girls...) and even now I am a "soft touch" who feels very deeply and can't walk into a butcher's or watch the TV news, and I take hours to pick apples because I don't want to hurt the tree. I had to learn boundaries when I trained as a counsellor so that I did not go home each night with the suicidal feelings and pain of my clients or vent their anger and outrage on inappropriate others. Context matters greatly, and managing one's boundaries is a skill that takes time to learn and apply most appropriately.

 

Also, while emapthy is all while and good, it what we choose to do with this emapthy that really matters. Someone may well empathize with someone else and see how they are hurting, but if they choose to ignore this, does thier empathy really matter?

e.g.- the playground bully may well emapthize with the kid they are picking on. they know their actions are hurting them and yet they don't stop. Their emapthy, at least in my opinion, is irrvelevant if it does not cause them to change their behavior. In fact, I find it sad they they could know they were hurting someone else and yet the choose not to stop.

 

But this works both ways. The social work professional needs to empathise with their client, but still maintain some clinical detachment so as to make a rational case management decision - even when it might be unpopular with the client. For example, a child who is being abused at home may fight to stay in the abusive environment (for all manner of reasons, including fear of the unknown and Stockholm Syndrome) despite the abuse, but the social worker needs to intervene and ensure that the child has a safe environment free from abuse. Similarly, a soldier who empathises with the enemy soldier may cease to function militarily since s/he can no longer pull the trigger with impunity, or a dentist be unable to wield a drill when seeing the terror in a patient's eyes. Sometimes you have to suppress the knee-jerk empathetic response and do what you know (or believe) to be for "the greater good".

[donnamaybe]

You're confusing it with compassion.

I'm certainly not the one who is confused.

[donnamaybe]

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you is a good yardstick and suggests empathy as its underlying value.

Yep. "The Golden Rule." Some adopt it when it's convenient. Others live by it.

[Silly_Girl]

I'm certainly not the one who is confused.

 

Who is? And how? :confused:

[donnamaybe]

I agree. Empathy is a skill that sociopaths are very good at mimicking. A sociopath would be considered empathic in here when all they are doing is reading a posters vulnerabilities and preying on them.

That's why I said "demonstrating the skill" of empathy is a far cry from actually HAVING empathy.

[donnamaybe]

Who is? And how? :confused:

That can be determined by reading threads on LS.

[Taramere]

That's why I said "demonstrating the skill" of empathy is a far cry from actually HAVING empathy.

 

I think lions show incredible empathy to herbivores....matching their movements and creeping up on them slowly so as not to cause any alarm. I was watching a clip recently where a lioness was caring and respectful enough to turn her paws over while approaching a family of warthogs - fur making less annoying noise on the grass than the pads of her feet would.

[donnamaybe]

I think lions show incredible empathy to herbivores....matching their movements and creeping up on them slowly so as not to cause any alarm. I was watching a clip recently where a lioness was caring and respectful enough to turn her paws over while approaching a family of warthogs - fur making less annoying noise on the grass than the pads of her feet would.

Good point!

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

 

Empathy requires discipline. You have to hold yourself to values before you can truly be empathetic.

 

This I don't agree with. I am a very empathetic person. It's just the way I am. At times, it is a burden rather than a gift.

 

I don't, however, always choose to "post with empathy" per the OP. That would, in fact, require discipline. Anyway, I don't choose to do it because just because I can actually, easily "empathize" with all kinds of human emotions and the resulting behavior, I do NOT necessarily "sympathize" with it, or wish to lend my support to it here on these boards.

[Silly_Girl]

That can be determined by reading threads on LS.

 

Which ones?

 

Donna, are you adverse to engaging on this point? If so just say so.

[Silly_Girl]

That's why I said "demonstrating the skill" of empathy is a far cry from actually HAVING empathy.

 

What's the logic? Having empathy is a skill. To show empathy is to be empathetic.

 

And it is certainly both a gift and a burden.

[donnamaybe]

Which ones?

 

Donna, are you adverse to engaging on this point? If so just say so.

I don't want to be led into an infraction by linking threads. Let's just say that it's clear to me, particularly from those who have an "I don't care who I hurt [no empathy] as long as I get mine [selfishness]" attitude, that some folks don't POSSESS empathy. If you can't find it in yourself to LIVE empathy by the time you're an adult, you sure shouldn't bother to pretend it in type.

[jthorne]

even now I am a "soft touch" who feels very deeply and can't walk into a butcher's or watch the TV news, and I take hours to pick apples because I don't want to hurt the tree. I had to learn boundaries when I trained as a counsellor so that I did not go home each night with the suicidal feelings and pain of my clients or vent their anger and outrage on inappropriate others.

Since you are the OP and the subject is empathy, I find this quote rather interesting.

 

The things you've listed here are inanimate objects, non-human objects, or people that could be seen as having a disadvantaged position to yourself.

 

Considering this along with your other quote about having no empathy for the BS, do you see yourself having empathy for anyone that is your equal?

[Silly_Girl]

I don't want to be led into an infraction by linking threads. Let's just say that it's clear to me, particularly from those who have an "I don't care who I hurt [no empathy] as long as I get mine [selfishness]" attitude, that some folks don't POSSESS empathy. If you can't find it in yourself to LIVE empathy by the time you're an adult, you sure shouldn't bother to pretend it in type.

 

Okay, thank you for even responding. Lots of posters don't!

 

I still feel strongly that empathy and compassion/guilt are being mixed up, but irrespective, I can glean where your stance is coming from.

[donnamaybe]

Okay, thank you for even responding. Lots of posters don't!

 

I still feel strongly that empathy and compassion/guilt are being mixed up, but irrespective, I can glean where your stance is coming from.

Thanks for understanding my POV, regardless whether you agree with it or not.

 

I don't see how empathy and compassion can be exclusive of each other. If you (not YOU you) don't care about anyone but yourself, how can you show empathy without feigning it? That's not true empathy. That's just a dog and pony show.

[Owl]

I think most people fight to balance empathy with selfishness.

 

We all have some degree of both. I don't mean to use selfishness as a negative attribute here...like I said, we all have it. It just means getting what we want in this case. Not meant as an insult at all.

 

For some...they wouldn't consider taking a course of action such as getting involved in a relationship with someone already in a committed relationship because they're sense of empathy overrides (to some degree) their sense of selfishness.

 

For others, the importance of getting what they want is greater than their sense of empathy for those that might be hurt by that pursuit of what they want.

 

All of us find that 'balance' somewhere inside of us between these two opposite motivations.

[OWoman]

Since you are the OP and the subject is empathy, I find this quote rather interesting.

 

The things you've listed here are inanimate objects, non-human objects, or people that could be seen as having a disadvantaged position to yourself.

 

Considering this along with your other quote about having no empathy for the BS, do you see yourself having empathy for anyone that is your equal?

 

If you bothered to read the post you're referring to, you'll see that I stated:

 

Sympathy involves feeling sorry FOR someone, and pity, likewise, extends down towards those less fortunate than oneself.

 

Empathy, on the other hand, extends from one equal to another - one thinks oneself into the place of the other, without any patronising or feeling sorry FOR them. One feels sorry WITH them.

 

At least, that is the standard counselling definition. It may be understood differently in different contexts or cultures.

 

Which is why, as I posted earlier, I could feel pity or sympathy for MM's BW, but never empathy.

 

I feel empathy for those I see as my equals - and yes, it might surprise people in the wealthy countries that anyone can see people suffering misfortune as equals rather than as the "disadvantaged" you dismiss them as simply because they've been subject to misfortune. For those I consider not my equals, I cannot feel empathy - hence my point that I could not feel empathy for my H's xW.

 

And I consider it interesting that you consider plants and animals as "inanimate objects" rather than sentient beings worthy of empathy and consideration. Perhaps it strikes you as odd, but many of the great religions of the world including Hinduism and Buddhism have empathy which extends beyond the narrow confines of their own species - and personally, I think that's a good thing. I'm sorry you don't, and I hope that you can learn it in the way Taramere suggested, reading books and developing some imagination in that regard. I'm sure you'll find your life much more fulfilling.

[donnamaybe]

I feel empathy for those I see as my equals - and yes, it might surprise people in the wealthy countries that anyone can see people suffering misfortune as equals rather than as the "disadvantaged" you dismiss them as simply because they've been subject to misfortune. For those I consider not my equals, I cannot feel empathy - hence my point that I could not feel empathy for my H's xW.

Seems to me she had the "misfortune" of being "disadvantaged" by having mental health issues as you have clearly pointed out in the past. So why should she not, then, be considered worthy of empathy?

[OWoman]

Actually, many soldiers have to be taught to not have empathy for the enemy...

 

Yes - that was my point, exactly!

 

there are some who are not able to do this, and they often end up with permanent phycological scaring from being in theatre. there are more than a few who are not able to do this... some also take it "too far" and lose thier ability to empathize with anyone they percieve as the "enemy" ( even civilians or enemy POW's). I often wonder how these people adjust to civilian life once the conflict is over.

 

There are certain professions where one alomost has to "quash" their empathy, as if they didn't, they would most likely find it very hard to continue in their position. Perhaps it is their ability to "quash" their sense of empathy that allows them to be successful in their work. This would lead me to question if their sense of empathy ( in so far as it relates to their employment) could even said to be present. I have never really thought muich about it before.

 

I think it is situational. Many social services professionals learn to moderate their empathy in their professional context, as required by the role, but exercise it normally in other aspects of their lives.

 

The irony is, it's often their heightened sense of empathy that drew them to that career in the first place...

 

Perhaps some "other men/women" are able to "quash" their sense of empathy for their partner's "betrayed spouse" ( I hate these terms!) and this may be part of what makes them able to be happy in their relationship. Maybe some other "affair partners" ( again, a term I hate) are not able to do this, and they become less and less able to be happy in their relationship- they empathize with the "betrayed spouse" and guilt creeps in.

 

This makes sense.

 

I know that in my own case, my lack of empathy for my H's xW arose from my inability to respect her (based on her behaviour). I know that had I felt empathy for her, I'd have been unlikely to feel happy in any kind of sustainable way in a R with her then-H.

[Owl]

If you bothered to read the post you're referring to, you'll see that I stated:

 

 

 

I feel empathy for those I see as my equals - and yes, it might surprise people in the wealthy countries that anyone can see people suffering misfortune as equals rather than as the "disadvantaged" you dismiss them as simply because they've been subject to misfortune.

 

Once again. SIGH...

 

There's nothing wrong with my country. There's nothing wrong with your country. Please stop taking potshots because you seem to have some personal grudge against it.

 

For those I consider not my equals, I cannot feel empathy - hence my point that I could not feel empathy for my H's xW.

 

So you're superior to her, and she's inferior to you?

 

I have never felt like ANYONE is inferior to me. They may have some significant problems or challenges...or be vastly different than I am. They may have even done things that led to their own pain (like your H's ex-wife has done)...but I've never felt like that made me somehow superior to them.

 

I just found this whole post really....odd.

 

In one fell swoop you insult other countries/beliefs and outline that you believe yourself superior to (at least one other) other people.

 

How am I misreading this?

[pureinheart]

So you're superior to her, and she's inferior to you?

 

I have never felt like ANYONE is inferior to me. They may have some significant problems or challenges...or be vastly different than I am. They may have even done things that led to their own pain (like your H's ex-wife has done)...but I've never felt like that made me somehow superior to them.

 

I just found this whole post really....odd.

 

In one fell swoop you insult other countries/beliefs and outline that you believe yourself superior to (at least one other) other people.

 

How am I misreading this?

 

Not answering for OWoman, although due to our situations being similar on certain points, I would like to throw my bit in.

 

For me, and this could be the case in other situations also. SO was not talking crap about his now exW, he would communicate daily happenings, coupled with what I had heard from others, I was able to paint a priddy clear picture in my mind concerning the life they had together. Some parts were truly disgusting. While none of us are perfect parents, this was ridiculous IMO. Social Services had been called out there many times. They were toxic together, yet he had a better handle on things, he was simply stuck.

 

She had frequent outbursts in which the kids lives and his were in jeapordy at times (the more violent episodes). She was very violent, and I wish I could fully communicate this area, although due to the "open forum" concept am unable to.

 

I have no empathy, sympathy, nothing for her. She was not disadvantaged, she was simply a B and chose to be that way. I don't have empathy for that, I don't have anything...I don't trust this type of individual...I saw her heart and it was disgusting, and she chose this for herself.

 

So in essense, it is not a superior/inferior issue, but a disgust issue.

 

Concerning animals and plants they are living things dependant upon our care for the mostpart. We are to protect what cannot protect themselves, we are to be their voice per se.

 

Us as humans should be intelligent enough to act humane, sometimes humanity doesn't, even with the ability...this is what I am unable to tolerate on any level. There are times, due to seeing the heart of an individual(s), I like animals much better.

 

I was always able to say, "well, people will be people" and go on...but there is an element out there now that is so dark that it is scary. Maybe I am just now opening my eyes..who knows, but regardless, I don't like what I see.

[OWoman]

Once again. SIGH...

 

There's nothing wrong with my country. There's nothing wrong with your country. Please stop taking potshots because you seem to have some personal grudge against it.

 

It wasn't a potshot about your country. I was merely responding to notions that having something bad happen to you implies you are somehow "lesser" - which was what that post was implying.

 

Perhaps I was wrong in assuming that that view was held more widely than by the person who posted it - in which case I apologise to anyone who doesn't share the view that poster expressed whom I may have inadvertantly offended. It wasn't intended to provoke an "us vs them" dichotomy, but to counter one.

 

I don't consider Japanese to be lesser because earthquakes, tsunamis and nuclear disasters have troubled them. I don't consider Haitians to be lesser because they were devastated by an earthquake; nor Libyans by a war; nor Zimbabweans by a famine. That was my point.

 

 

 

So you're superior to her, and she's inferior to you?

 

I have never felt like ANYONE is inferior to me. They may have some significant problems or challenges...or be vastly different than I am. They may have even done things that led to their own pain (like your H's ex-wife has done)...but I've never felt like that made me somehow superior to them.

 

Did I say superior, or inferior? I don't believe I did.

 

I don't feel she's an equal - and I know she doesn't feel anyone else is her equal either, so we're agreed on that

 

Ranking her as superior or inferior to me would imply we sit at different points on a common continuum, and I don't believe we do. I can't compare her to me and say she is lesser or greater - to me that would be like saying I was greater or lesser than a Martian or an anti-matter being. She's something very different to what I am, and as such there is no basis I can recognise for comparison. Hence, no equivalence.

[Owl]

It wasn't a potshot about your country. I was merely responding to notions that having something bad happen to you implies you are somehow "lesser" - which was what that post was implying.

 

Perhaps I was wrong in assuming that that view was held more widely than by the person who posted it - in which case I apologise to anyone who doesn't share the view that poster expressed whom I may have inadvertantly offended. It wasn't intended to provoke an "us vs them" dichotomy, but to counter one.

 

I don't consider Japanese to be lesser because earthquakes, tsunamis and nuclear disasters have troubled them. I don't consider Haitians to be lesser because they were devastated by an earthquake; nor Libyans by a war; nor Zimbabweans by a famine. That was my point.

 

Fair enough.

 

 

 

Did I say superior, or inferior? I don't believe I did.

 

I don't feel she's an equal - and I know she doesn't feel anyone else is her equal either, so we're agreed on that

 

Ranking her as superior or inferior to me would imply we sit at different points on a common continuum, and I don't believe we do. I can't compare her to me and say she is lesser or greater - to me that would be like saying I was greater or lesser than a Martian or an anti-matter being. She's something very different to what I am, and as such there is no basis I can recognise for comparison. Hence, no equivalence.

 

Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me.

 

She's human, you're human.

 

Either you're de-humanizing her and considering her a "thing" or a "martian"...or you're both humans.

 

I'm sorry OW...I just don't see any sense in this statement at all.

 

I'll bow out...I can't attempt to discuss something that is so far outside of my comprehension. My apologies for being so limited in understanding.

[bentnotbroken]

Not answering for OWoman, although due to our situations being similar on certain points, I would like to throw my bit in.

 

For me, and this could be the case in other situations also. SO was not talking crap about his now exW, he would communicate daily happenings, coupled with what I had heard from others, I was able to paint a priddy clear picture in my mind concerning the life they had together. Some parts were truly disgusting. While none of us are perfect parents, this was ridiculous IMO. Social Services had been called out there many times. They were toxic together, yet he had a better handle on things, he was simply stuck.

 

She had frequent outbursts in which the kids lives and his were in jeapordy at times (the more violent episodes). She was very violent, and I wish I could fully communicate this area, although due to the "open forum" concept am unable to.

 

I have no empathy, sympathy, nothing for her. She was not disadvantaged, she was simply a B and chose to be that way. I don't have empathy for that, I don't have anything...I don't trust this type of individual...I saw her heart and it was disgusting, and she chose this for herself.

 

So in essense, it is not a superior/inferior issue, but a disgust issue.

 

Concerning animals and plants they are living things dependant upon our care for the mostpart. We are to protect what cannot protect themselves, we are to be their voice per se.

 

Us as humans should be intelligent enough to act humane, sometimes humanity doesn't, even with the ability...this is what I am unable to tolerate on any level. There are times, due to seeing the heart of an individual(s), I like animals much better.

 

I was always able to say, "well, people will be people" and go on...but there is an element out there now that is so dark that it is scary. Maybe I am just now opening my eyes..who knows, but regardless, I don't like what I see.

 

 

This I totally agree with. Disgust at the actions of others allow empathy(and sympathy) to be something that I decide who I will feel those emotions for. I agree that so many act with the base level of animals that I like the "real" animals better.

[seren]

I find it interesting that the empathy needed by certain professions has been discussed, specifically the need to disengage from empathy to prevent burn out. As a social worker my job required me to have empathy and to be non judgemental, I have worked with sex offenders and survivors of SA, and am a survivor of SA, the job required that I deal with each on an equal footing, hence the non judgemental value. had I been too empatheitc I wouldn't have been able to function and my role would have shifted from that of professional to do gooder.

I used to tell my students, if you see someone drowning you don't jump in and try to save them, else you might both drown, what you do is stand on the side and throw in the lifebelt. To be too emapthetic takes away from the job in hand.

 

I also find it interesting that as an XBS it is almost expected that I show empathy for the OW, or I (general) am labelled bitter, yet often find little of the same shown to a BS. As it happens I did/do feel empathy for the OW, no one could understand how, when she would ring, that I could listen while she poured out hurt and tried to understand. I was also the person she contacted when her H became violent. It took distancing from the situation and from my hurt and anger, a sort of disassociation if you like, yet I can question whether my empathy also meant that I had the upper hand and so served the purpose to make me feel superior. I hope not, but suspect there is an element of truth in it. Not nice to think I possess that trait.

 

I also think that during an A, the minimising of the marriage enables the WS to not show empathy toward their spouse, otherwise they would have to ask themselves what their character was lacking that would allow them to hurt and lie to someone they share a life with.

 

I like empathy as a value, however, I think it has personal parameters, in that people, are naturally self seeking and being truly empathetic would mean we questioned, always how our actions impacted upon others, to act on actions that undeniably hurt another would/could/should show up possible flaws in our treatment of others and may make us feel less than, so we justify. This not necessarily in relation to A's.

 

Interesting topic OWoman, I shall think more on it as I am in danger of rattling along with thoughts that go totally off topic.

 

I was brought up with the mantra of - each morning look into the mirror and say to yourself, today I am going to be the best person I can and at the end of the day, to ask yourself, have I been the best I could be, if not, why not, and the next day, to try to learn from this. Empathy, possibly, it was the Golden Rule in my house and not a bad one to try to live up to.