Posting with Empathy

[SidLyon]

Of course it is up to me...silly question. Come off it though Sidlyon, you know what you were doing....you were not "just asking a question"-you were passive-aggressively trying to make a point that you were better because you "considered" the OP's point-it is not as if you are actually interested if I did or did not...

 

Again, if you have read my previous posts about my take on empathy you would not have felt the need to ask...but then again...what motivated you to ask was not because you sincerely wanted to know..

 

Come off it yourself Tami.

[tami-chan]

Come off it yourself Tami.

 

rich:lmao:...seriously...

[mizliz]

rich:lmao:...seriously...

 

The emoticons take away from a point...

[White Flower]

There is talking the talk and then there is walking the walk.

 

We all understand that.

 

Yes "empathy" is a feeling, but just because a person claims to feel that feeling, is meaningless unless by their behavior it's reflected by their actions towards the other people who count in their lives.

 

And no, tami, there isn't some sort of big scoreboard in the sky somewhere, that allows cheaters to say that they can negate the lack of empathy reflected by their cheating, by rescuing lost puppy dogs and kittens.

 

A cheater who rescues puppy dogs and kittens is still a cheater, and still lacks empathy "where it counts," and all the rescued puppies and kittens in the world don't make up for what they did.

 

And also--the perpetrator doesn't get to decide whether his or her actions are empathetic from the victim's perspective.

 

Cheaters will never get this, because they lack empathy. It's fundamental. They simply don't believe betrayed spouses are entitled to their own feelings. They won't even allow them that.

First of all the perpetrator is your spouse; he/she is the one who took vows with you, and broke those vows.

 

Second, refuting your points in argumentation has nothing to do with your feelings. If you insist the sky is green but I tell you it's blue I am only arguing a point, not telling you how to feel about it.

[dreamingoftigers]

In my case I think that my spouse is completely unable to empathize with me in any form.

 

Literally a brain-function issue. He simply is so out of touch with his own feelings that he couldn't possibly "get" mine.

[tami-chan]

There is talking the talk and then there is walking the walk.

 

We all understand that.

 

Yes "empathy" is a feeling, but just because a person claims to feel that feeling, is meaningless unless by their behavior it's reflected by their actions towards the other people who count in their lives.

 

I understand. But not everybody CAN act on every feeling or emotion the feel-nor should they. Definitely, the "meaning" is diminished or even absent when there is no action..but I do think it makes a difference when one feels and one is indifferent...and if you do not agree with that. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

And no, tami, there isn't some sort of big scoreboard in the sky somewhere, that allows cheaters to say that they can negate the lack of empathy reflected by their cheating, by rescuing lost puppy dogs and kittens.

 

I do not know about the "scoreboard in the sky" ..never seen one or thought of one. So not sure what you are talking about. I do tend to "look at " people I am interested in or care for in more than a one dimensional way. I think most people do...people who are evolved ( for lack of better word). Here's an example: Bill Clinton-most people would still vote for him (as President)if he ran today despite the fact that he was a cheater many times over. Although, if there is an Organization of Betrayed Spouses, they will probably not endorse him.

 

A cheater who rescues puppy dogs and kittens is still a cheater, and still lacks empathy "where it counts," and all the rescued puppies and kittens in the world don't make up for what they did.

 

I agree with the bolded. But I do not think most people do other "empathetic" acts to alleviate there guilt of cheating. Angelina Jolie was the other woman but many people think she is this wonderful celebrity/ world citizen that was given the title as UN ambassador of good will and she goes to Africa and war torn countries to raise awareness and money to help them...etc. Which make me think that most people ( and I do not know "most people") do not "define" her as the "other woman". She is like all these other things who happens to be the other woman at a point in her life.

 

And also--the perpetrator doesn't get to decide whether his or her actions are empathetic from the victim's perspective.

 

I agree. A WS has no control over that. So really, there are a few things that can be done from either party. A BS can move on or live with the sadness/anger/victimization all her/his life and the WS can live in guilt/shame/ self-loathing or own the choice, make peace with it and move on. It's all about choice. You can either live your life the way you see fit or live your life dependent upon the other person's choices.

 

Cheaters will never get this, because they lack empathy. It's fundamental. They simply don't believe betrayed spouses are entitled to their own feelings. They won't even allow them that.

 

I do not agree. How can anyone not allow anyone their own feelings?

[dreamingoftigers]

I always imagine empathy as being able to take a step back and think, if I do X,Y or X then the likely consequences are A,B or C and if the consequences are that another gets hurt by my actions and for my pleasure then I wouldn't go there. It's not compassion, I would feel that if I went ahead and did X,Y or Z, it's looking at what I do that affects that person's life or experiences. Or supporting someone with those consequences, not necessarily condoning, but I always figure their conscience is their boat to row.

 

I can empathise with a person's emotions or situation and not necessarily agree with or condone their behaviour or actions. The behaviour or action that hurts another shows, IMO, a lack of empathy on the part of the doer, the understanding of the emotions resulting from that action are mine to own, my empathy or capacity for it. We don't need to agree with someone to show empathy and may puzzle as to how someone else hasn't empathy to the same degree. Unfortunately empathy isn't always based on reciprocity, it it were then more people would think of the consequences of their actions.

 

Ummm and yes I did cut up worms and stiched them back together again when birds pecked them, complete with bandages. But when I understood it hurt the worms, I stopped.

 

After a particularly traumatic time in my life where someone tried to kill me, (I was 17). I found myself living alone and walking back from the bus one night.

 

It had rained in the morning and all of these worms popped up onto the sidewalk.

 

Calgary has very quickly shifting weather, sometimes we get snow in the morning and it will melt by the afternoon, sometimes we get 8 inches like yesterday (in my area anyways, the city streches to one of the largest areas in North America I believe it has finally surpassed New York City in area).

 

Anyways, the weather did a shift and it started to snow. A lot of the worms simply would not survive the wet and the cold snap. I started picking them up and putting them in my pocket. I counted them.

 

I can't remember what the exact total was but it was over 100 and it took me over an hour to get home. NO WORM LEFT BEHIND!

 

I put them in a small plant in my bedroom and the next day when the weather warmed to about 15 degrees, I dumped the plant out with the worms in a park.

 

I just couldn't let them suffer and die. Something about it was therapeutic. My mother thought I was nuts.

[dreamingoftigers]

Amen. Funny how he says he values family when he didn't do that for his own. Just like any other cheater.

 

I find this phenomenon fascinating with my husband as well. He is actually able to somewhat empathize with other people in a similar situation to me.

 

He can see their hurt and loss, but when he looks at me, he sees a mirror for his poor choices and then only has contempt. I think it is because he can't see past the shame and acknowledge the hurt.

 

I think many cheaters only see a mirror of their shame and not the person that their spouse is.

[dreamingoftigers]

She was using Michelle Obama as an example of how you can define a person.

 

Although we know the Michelle Obama is the First Lady and a public figure, she could be defined as some as just a housewife because she is not technically employed by anyone.

 

That was all.

 

Another example of the point that was illustrated as that Elvis could be looked at as only as divorced man or as a father. This does not sum up who Elvis was. He was also a singer and a public figure and whoever else he was to his friends and relatives.

 

By choosing to define a person by any one part of their lives, we are limiting our perception of them.

 

Just trying to clear that up.

[desertIslandCactus]

I would think when it comes to empathy, people are known by the Whole picture.

 

Liz was an activist and raised money for aids .. yet broke up at least two marriages.

 

Angelina does more than her share of charity work and adopting, yet again - enticed Pitt.

 

These people will not be completely known for their charity and goodness, because of selfish choices.

[desertIslandCactus]

She was using Michelle Obama as an example of how you can define a person.

 

Although we know the Michelle Obama is the First Lady and a public figure, she could be defined as some as just a housewife because she is not technically employed by anyone.

 

That was all.

 

Another example of the point that was illustrated as that Elvis could be looked at as only as divorced man or as a father. This does not sum up who Elvis was. He was also a singer and a public figure and whoever else he was to his friends and relatives.

 

By choosing to define a person by any one part of their lives, we are limiting our perception of them.

 

Just trying to clear that up.

 

Elvis was a money maker. Michelle - I see as frivolous with a big mouth.

[desertIslandCactus]

I find this phenomenon fascinating with my husband as well. He is actually able to somewhat empathize with other people in a similar situation to me.

 

He can see their hurt and loss, but when he looks at me, he sees a mirror for his poor choices and then only has contempt. I think it is because he can't see past the shame and acknowledge the hurt.

 

I think many cheaters only see a mirror of their shame and not the person that their spouse is.

 

Their Loss.

[dreamingoftigers]

Elvis was a money maker. Michelle - I see as frivolous with a big mouth.

 

I will break it down further.

 

An apple can be seen as having little brown seeds. That is not all an apple is. However you perceive an apple to be, whether you like it, hate it whatever, does not mean that it only has little brown seeds.

 

Apples can also be used to make apple pie, apples have a whiteish flesh. Some are red, some are yellow, some are green. Lots of kinds of apples.

 

By only noticing and focusing on the seeds you may be missing the fact that apples have other practical and noticeable traits.

 

This doesn't "redeem" apples. It doesn't make them "better" or "worse" it just means that they have a few different properties that allow us to see more of them.

 

Completely neutral about apples.

 

Therefore if you only see how faithful or unfaithful a person is then you may only see that part of them and miss the fact that they do excellent yardwork. And they suck at baking cake.

 

I am not saying that they are a great person or not, but they have more to them then being faithful or unfaithful.

[desertIslandCactus]

I'm saying contributing to adultry, theft, murder etc. cast a stain on the character ..

[Silly_Girl]

http://www.stephencrippen.com/blog/empathy-sympathy-and-compassion-101/

 

Empathy, sympathy and compassion, I googled 'difference between empathy and compassion' and the above was the first link I clicked.

 

The OP in this thread asked that we perhaps we could exercise empathy as we respond to one another.

 

I have commented on another thread about this. About the error I perceive in posters, that in their 'crusade' to 'protect' OW's from the big bad wolfie MM they take a prescriptive, dictator-like approach. Or are dismissive and take zero interest in what the OW percieves they are benefitting from, by being in an affair. I suggested that perhaps preaching is not useful.

 

That if, instead, posters who are extremely anti-OW, or anti-A in their posts actually took time to empathise with the individual in question, and their individual situation, it may result in more valuable ADVICE and SUPPORT. It may help both the parties as opposed to merely an opportunity for venting. When it happens, it's a wonderful thing. And it does NOT require agreeing with something you don't believe in, or condoning something you find heinous.

 

Some individuals have decided that a person who does something to the detriment of another cannot have empathy. That is ridiculous. I spoke at length today with my guy and my son, separately, but on this subject and thought I'd share....

 

My son and I talked about if someone robbed him. If we were burgled and his favourite, more treasured possesions (his gadgets!!) were stolen. He would be upset and angry. He would want his things back and he would be angry.

 

I asked him how he would feel if the burglar only took his things because they had no money to feed their tiny children. Could my son (aged 14) understand that. He said he could. He said that given the circumstances he could see why that person made that decision. BUT he still didn't want to let him keep the items. He could understand, but he loves his iPad 2 more than he'd like to show compassion to the robber. Rules are rules, in HIS view.

 

As regards my boyfriend, he knows better than most just how much empathy I had/have for his wife. How much I struggled. The nightmares and the upset. The moral dilemma and the confusion. He also knows that, in the end, I decided the 'greater good' was to support the end of a dysfunctional relationship and us to embark on something new and good. Now, I had empathy. I also believe what has happened is the BEST thing for his wife. I believe that deeply, and I could (but won't here) go in to that. As yet, she does not share that opinion, but she is far less opposed to the concept than she was.

 

But essentially, my boyfriend knows me, and his wife. He knows how we each feel about what happened and he knows damn well I had empathy. I didn't feel inclined to stay away from her husband, no, but that does not mean I did not spend considerable time attempting to try her shoes on for size, and my boyfriend will also vouch that a lot of the time my surmisations were pretty much on target. For example, the things I felt she'd find most hurtful, were exactly the things she said to him were the most hurtful.

 

I resent the blanket insults against OW here on the board. From what I can see in the posts, it's quite likely some of those anti-OW posters are capable of being pretty darned nasty... or fantastic, on the other hand.

 

I would never dream of telling my son I hate HIM when he does something bad, but I may well hate something he has done. To judge a person's entire life by one of the dozens of relationships they have is not neccessarily helpful if we're trying to re-educate one another and share experiences. I know of a couple of ex-colleagues who were awful to work with, but seemed to be the epitome of family-orientated away from the office and their dedication to their family seemed inspiring. Yet they'd stab you in the back professionally as soon as pass you the sugar in the office kitchen.

[donnamaybe]

 

 

If one changes their actions due to their empathy and understanding, surely they're then showing compassion? What's compassion in your book?

 

Enjoying this thread.

 

If they are changing their actions only to give someone the impression that empathy exists, then they only do it when it suits them or is somehow advantageous to them. That isn't empathy. That is acting.

[Silly_Girl]

Oh Donna!!! You've done it again.

 

I said:

 

If one changes their actions due to their empathy and understanding, surely they're then showing compassion? What's compassion in your book?

You said:

 

If they are changing their actions only to give someone the impression that empathy exists, then they only do it when it suits them or is somehow advantageous to them. That isn't empathy. That is acting

 

You seem obsessed with empathy = being disingenuous. I wasn't talking about faking - in any way.

 

What's compassion, by your definition?

[WorldIsYours]

http://www.stephencrippen.com/blog/empathy-sympathy-and-compassion-101/

 

Empathy, sympathy and compassion, I googled 'difference between empathy and compassion' and the above was the first link I clicked.

 

The OP in this thread asked that we perhaps we could exercise empathy as we respond to one another.

 

I have commented on another thread about this. About the error I perceive in posters, that in their 'crusade' to 'protect' OW's from the big bad wolfie MM they take a prescriptive, dictator-like approach. Or are dismissive and take zero interest in what the OW percieves they are benefitting from, by being in an affair. I suggested that perhaps preaching is not useful.

 

That if, instead, posters who are extremely anti-OW, or anti-A in their posts actually took time to empathise with the individual in question, and their individual situation, it may result in more valuable ADVICE and SUPPORT. It may help both the parties as opposed to merely an opportunity for venting. When it happens, it's a wonderful thing. And it does NOT require agreeing with something you don't believe in, or condoning something you find heinous.

 

Some individuals have decided that a person who does something to the detriment of another cannot have empathy. That is ridiculous. I spoke at length today with my guy and my son, separately, but on this subject and thought I'd share....

 

My son and I talked about if someone robbed him. If we were burgled and his favourite, more treasured possesions (his gadgets!!) were stolen. He would be upset and angry. He would want his things back and he would be angry.

 

I asked him how he would feel if the burglar only took his things because they had no money to feed their tiny children. Could my son (aged 14) understand that. He said he could. He said that given the circumstances he could see why that person made that decision. BUT he still didn't want to let him keep the items. He could understand, but he loves his iPad 2 more than he'd like to show compassion to the robber. Rules are rules, in HIS view.

 

And how would you feel if you had a real boyfriend and some other woman was sucking him, talking about how she's helping your relationship with empathy?

 

As regards my boyfriend, he knows better than most just how much empathy I had/have for his wife (Oh god!). How much I struggled. The nightmares and the upset. The moral dilemma and the confusion. He also knows that, in the end, I decided the 'greater good' was to support the end of a dysfunctional relationship and us to embark on something new and good. Now, I had empathy. I also believe what has happened is the BEST thing for his wife.:lmao::lmao: (So you think that riding her husband is helping their marriage! This just goes to show how immature and selfish participants of infidelity are) I believe that deeply, and I could (but won't here) go in to that. As yet, she does not share that opinion, but she is far less opposed to the concept than she was.

 

But essentially, my boyfriend knows me, and his wife. He knows how we each feel about what happened and he knows damn well I had empathy. I didn't feel inclined to stay away from her husband, no,(of course you don't because you like the little free time he has with you:laugh:) but that does not mean I did not spend considerable time attempting to try her shoes on for size, and my boyfriend will also vouch that a lot of the time my surmisations were pretty much on target. For example, the things I felt she'd find most hurtful, were exactly the things she said to him were the most hurtful. (You do not feel empathy for because you're fooling around with her husband. that's not the definition of empathy and it's hypocrisy at best.)

 

I resent the blanket insults against OW here on the board. From what I can see in the posts, it's quite likely some of those anti-OW posters are capable of being pretty darned nasty... (there's no such thing as blanket insults against selfish vermin who's a devastation to the union of marriage. the only folks around here who are nasty, are the ones sucking off a married person's body parts and trying to rationalize it, saying it's a good thing:sick:) or fantastic, on the other hand.

 

I would never dream of telling my son I hate HIM when he does something bad, but I may well hate something he has done. To judge a person's entire life by one of the dozens of relationships they have is not neccessarily helpful if we're trying to re-educate one another and share experiences. I know of a couple of ex-colleagues who were awful to work with, but seemed to be the epitome of family-orientated away from the office and their dedication to their family seemed inspiring. Yet they'd stab you in the back professionally as soon as pass you the sugar in the office kitchen.

 

It's so funny to see you talking about empathy and betrayal.

[Silly_Girl]

Ha, OW and pro-OW demanding empathy. Wonder why.

 

Demanding? Okay, you're a bit more sensitive than I gave you credit for then.

 

I was talking about SHOWING it, not demanding it.

[Silly_Girl]

It's so funny to see you talking about empathy and betrayal.

 

Glad I brightened up a Sunday evening for you. Wish 'funny' something I could say about your posts. Peace.

[WorldIsYours]

Glad I brightened up a Sunday evening for you. Wish 'funny' something I could say about your posts. Peace.

 

It's actually afternoon where I'm sitting and nothing is meant to be funny about my posts in regards to infidelity. Your posts, however are funny because it shows immaturity and hypocrisy at it's highest. Peace.

[dreamingoftigers]

http://www.stephencrippen.com/blog/empathy-sympathy-and-compassion-101/

 

Empathy, sympathy and compassion, I googled 'difference between empathy and compassion' and the above was the first link I clicked.

 

The OP in this thread asked that we perhaps we could exercise empathy as we respond to one another.

 

I have commented on another thread about this. About the error I perceive in posters, that in their 'crusade' to 'protect' OW's from the big bad wolfie MM they take a prescriptive, dictator-like approach. Or are dismissive and take zero interest in what the OW percieves they are benefitting from, by being in an affair. I suggested that perhaps preaching is not useful.

 

That if, instead, posters who are extremely anti-OW, or anti-A in their posts actually took time to empathise with the individual in question, and their individual situation, it may result in more valuable ADVICE and SUPPORT. It may help both the parties as opposed to merely an opportunity for venting. When it happens, it's a wonderful thing. And it does NOT require agreeing with something you don't believe in, or condoning something you find heinous.

 

Some individuals have decided that a person who does something to the detriment of another cannot have empathy. That is ridiculous. I spoke at length today with my guy and my son, separately, but on this subject and thought I'd share....

 

My son and I talked about if someone robbed him. If we were burgled and his favourite, more treasured possesions (his gadgets!!) were stolen. He would be upset and angry. He would want his things back and he would be angry.

 

I asked him how he would feel if the burglar only took his things because they had no money to feed their tiny children. Could my son (aged 14) understand that. He said he could. He said that given the circumstances he could see why that person made that decision. BUT he still didn't want to let him keep the items. He could understand, but he loves his iPad 2 more than he'd like to show compassion to the robber. Rules are rules, in HIS view.

 

As regards my boyfriend, he knows better than most just how much empathy I had/have for his wife. How much I struggled. The nightmares and the upset. The moral dilemma and the confusion. He also knows that, in the end, I decided the 'greater good' was to support the end of a dysfunctional relationship and us to embark on something new and good. Now, I had empathy. I also believe what has happened is the BEST thing for his wife. I believe that deeply, and I could (but won't here) go in to that. As yet, she does not share that opinion, but she is far less opposed to the concept than she was.

 

But essentially, my boyfriend knows me, and his wife. He knows how we each feel about what happened and he knows damn well I had empathy. I didn't feel inclined to stay away from her husband, no, but that does not mean I did not spend considerable time attempting to try her shoes on for size, and my boyfriend will also vouch that a lot of the time my surmisations were pretty much on target. For example, the things I felt she'd find most hurtful, were exactly the things she said to him were the most hurtful.

 

I resent the blanket insults against OW here on the board. From what I can see in the posts, it's quite likely some of those anti-OW posters are capable of being pretty darned nasty... or fantastic, on the other hand.

 

I would never dream of telling my son I hate HIM when he does something bad, but I may well hate something he has done. To judge a person's entire life by one of the dozens of relationships they have is not neccessarily helpful if we're trying to re-educate one another and share experiences. I know of a couple of ex-colleagues who were awful to work with, but seemed to be the epitome of family-orientated away from the office and their dedication to their family seemed inspiring. Yet they'd stab you in the back professionally as soon as pass you the sugar in the office kitchen.

 

I ask this with total respect and no judgment but was it empathy or guilt?

[tami-chan]

It's actually afternoon where I'm sitting and nothing is meant to be funny about my posts in regards to infidelity. Your posts, however are funny because it shows immaturity and hypocrisy at it's highest. Peace.

 

What are you posts meant to be or for?

 

...somehow I think you will come up with something funny...

[WorldIsYours]

What are you posts meant to be or for?

 

What are your posts meant to be or for?

 

...somehow I think you will come up with something funny...

 

Somehow, I think in the future you will post something that makes sense.

[tami-chan]

What are your posts meant to be or for?

 

I asked first...I take it you are too chicken to respond? (see? I knew it would be something that would make me laugh :lmao:)

 

Somehow, I think in the future you will post something that makes sense.

 

Meeeow....so catty..here I thought you were a guy......