Many men fear being taken to the cleaners in divorce. Some so much so,

March 31, 2011

Wow. You win. Can I pay you alimony also?? I would advise some IC to deal with the whatever issue you have. OK I'm gone. Bye

Okay, you can pay me alimony. What is an IC who should deal with whatever issue I have? An intercourse?

March 31, 2011

@Memphis Raine- What I said about women hater was b/c of the post where you said most divorces are because women cheat. Okay, so maybe you mean your wife cheated. Due to that extenuating circumstance, I give you a pass on that comment.

About custody, in general terms, I believe the wife usually should get it. You can't split a child in two so one parent has to be chosen for primary custody, right. My case, we almost got divorced once, it was horrible. I had spent several years home with my kids. I was the main parent, time wise. He was the main parent, money wise. It would have been worse on them to change it and would have probably been harder on us too. Is it not usually so that mother is more than 50% the parent the children are used to? It doesn't sound like you're arguing that, so okay.

Nobody wants to be kicked out of their own family. I can see how it would be almost unbearable if you were willing to work it out and weren't the one who cheated. I think unless you marry a person who is just "that type" though, just let me say it....affairs usually happen after the couple has left a huge gap between them with plenty of room for someone to walk in. I mean usually things are so bad that the one who cheats just feels so low they don't even care any more. I guess that's what you're saying by "complacency." However, no, I am NOT saying it's an excuse or makes it okay. Just that perhaps instead of 100% wrong, the cheater is, I dunno, 75% wrong?

So then she doesn't want to try any more, just wants to go. Here is where I really feel like things are too easy. What if the law said you have to wait a year and go to mandatory marriage counseling? I don't think it's fair to have your partner base their whole life on your vow and have children based on that vow and get to skip off any damn time you please, I really don't. But then people ALWAYS seem to think they are the wounded party when the marriage goes south. So of course they believe that if they can only ditch the devil spouse, all will be perfect. With most people I have known, they did not seem to move on to any better life. With the insight from marriage counseling, maybe they would not have to learn the hard way that they might not be thinking right.

But still, cheating does NOT make her an unfit mother, in itself, as far as custody in divorce. Neither is her sex life. Here, I do think it is very easy to mix up personal fury (not saying it's not understandable) with parenting ability. It depends, really, on the details. If she goes out on Saturday night and picks up some strange and kids are cared for by a sitter, her ex may have steam coming out of his ears but truthfully that does not make her a bad parent.

Even with serious cause though I think it IS hard for the man to get custody, way beyond simply who is the better parent. It's not right. I don't know what to say on that. I have not known that many fathers who wanted custody though so I could be wrong but I would not say it's a problem the majority of fathers have.

Also, I think it is very hard for someone divorced, especially newly divorced, to be objective about it, even when they try to be. Whichever one you talk to was done wrong, is getting screwed financially, and is the better parent. Not against you because I don't know you but just to point it out in general for the sake of truth.

Being the parent, also, should not be a reward or punishment for anything besides who is the better parent, right? Because the couple will be divorced anyway, it is allowed.

If my spouse messed up my world like that I would want to chop his head off. I get it, as far as that goes.

Edited March 31, 2011 by SummersEve

March 31, 2011

I don't think that anybody in this thread is bashing women. The anger is more with the system than with women in general. There are plenty of good women out there who would never do this but the system makes it very easy for the ones that do. As evidenced by Tinktronik many women have been the victims of this system as well. Family court system in general just needs major reform.

March 31, 2011

IC= Individual counseling.

March 31, 2011

About custody, in general terms, I believe the wife usually should get it.

thats what I thought

Is it not usually so that mother is more than 50% the parent the children are used to?

in today's world where too many times both parents have to, or just do, work, no

But still, cheating does NOT make her an unfit mother, in itself, as far as custody in divorce.

but of course it doesn't:rolleyes:

Neither is her sex life. Here, I do think it is very easy to mix up personal fury (not saying it's not understandable) with parenting ability. It depends, really, on the details. If she goes out on Saturday night and picks up some strange and kids are cared for by a sitter, her ex may have steam coming out of his ears but truthfully that does not make her a bad parent.

yes, it does, when the sitter is the husband and she is going out and screwing over their father, someone the kids love dearly. pretty good plan to have the husband stay at home, that way he isn't going to go out and follow her.

Being the parent, also, should not be a reward or punishment for anything besides who is the better parent, right?

someone who didn't care enough about the family unit to keep from going out and getting their strange is not the better parent.

someone raising a kid with a lack of scruples like that is not the better parent, unless the other parent is some sort of drug addict or something.

March 31, 2011

I don't think that anybody in this thread is bashing women. The anger is more with the system than with women in general. .

exactly right

March 31, 2011

@Memphis, your wife is an "unscrupulous person" or she cheated during one period of time when your marriage was falling apart? Or do you think they are the same thing?

ETA: What do you mean "that's what you thought" re where I said I think the woman should usually get custody? Did I not present very good reasons?

Edited March 31, 2011 by SummersEve

March 31, 2011

I don't think that anybody in this thread is bashing women. The anger is more with the system than with women in general. There are plenty of good women out there who would never do this but the system makes it very easy for the ones that do. As evidenced by Tinktronik many women have been the victims of this system as well. Family court system in general just needs major reform.

This, a thousand times this. Well put.

March 31, 2011

For myself, two reasons:
Because my business and real estate holdings combine with my residence, I don't wish another person whom I'm not legally married to occupying the premises.

I'm 'old-fashioned' and don't believe in cohabitation. Other than when married, I've always lived alone. Never rented, never had roommates. I like it that way.

Most women my age have no issues with that. They like their independence. Another aspect of compatibility

Actually, statistically speaking it has been show that if you don't live with someone before marriage there is a higher chance to stay marry. On contrary if you live together before marriage theres a higher chance it wont last and also that you won't even get married in the first place.

March 31, 2011

I don't think that anybody in this thread is bashing women. The anger is more with the system than with women in general. There are plenty of good women out there who would never do this but the system makes it very easy for the ones that do. As evidenced by Tinktronik many women have been the victims of this system as well. Family court system in general just needs major reform.

Of course the anger is with the system. An muslim in Afghanistan can have his wife stoned. Most muslims are good men and would not agree their wife be subjected to such a treatment, no matter what she does. Do we tell women, all they have to do is to find a good man? No we see that the problem is that evil men have the legal right to commit heinous acts and oppose a system that empowers them to do so and demand change.

While in most cases it is not a life and death situation when it comes to the divorce laws in America and Europe, women do have the legal powers to make the life of their ex Husband and children hell. Men are told they should mitigate that problem by "marrying the right woman". I say an selfish maybe evil woman shouldn't be legally able to do, what she currently can legally do. A man should be able to marry the angriest most vindictive woman you can think of, without her being legally able to act on her character in divorce court, because our legal system empowers her.

Sadly that is not the case and these days men who are pressured by their sweetheart to finally propose are well adviced to meet her parents first and see what life is like for the last guy in that family who proposed. If you marry she has the loaded gun on your chest that is divorce, for the rest of your life, or a damocless sword if you prefer that comparison. There is a reason, divorce is something women use to threaten men with and not the other way around. There is a reason, divorce is something wifes hold over their husbands as a threat, a real threat most men seriously fear.

Now you are going to say, not all women are like that, but should a woman who is like that, be empowered by the legal system to be who she is?

Edited March 31, 2011 by Tiberius

April 1, 2011

Sweet and to the point:

BAN: CHILD CUSTODY PAYMENTS TO THE CUSTODIAL PARENT.

Instead --- create a bank fund that shows actual accounting for direct use of the funds for the child(/ren)- Medical, Clothing, School event.

Each parent gets equal custody time ...(provided neither is harmful or jeopardizes the childs health/wellbeing)

Prenups- LOVE EM!!! I call it the true document of independency Ya dont marry someone for their stuff do ya?? Well maybe some do , which is why a prenup may be used to guard and protect. I personally call it my waiver of ever having to piggyback (mooch) off of someone elses good fortune.

Yes more females get custody and not all are deserving, I've met far too many that care more for the "custodial" payments then the child. I got a former daughter in law that is evil extraordinary!.

April 1, 2011

Okay, you can pay me alimony. What is an IC who should deal with whatever issue I have? An intercourse?

hehe. Intercourse? Ya maybe that too. IC= individual counseling;)

April 1, 2011

hehe. Intercourse? Ya maybe that too. IC= individual counseling;)

I wonder which one works better. LOL

April 1, 2011

I don't think that anybody in this thread is bashing women. The anger is more with the system than with women in general. There are plenty of good women out there who would never do this but the system makes it very easy for the ones that do. As evidenced by Tinktronik many women have been the victims of this system as well. Family court system in general just needs major reform.

Of course the anger is with the system. An muslim in Afghanistan can have his wife stoned. Most muslims are good men and would not agree their wife be subjected to such a treatment, no matter what she does. Do we tell women, all they have to do is to find a good man? No we see that the problem is that evil men have the legal right to commit heinous acts and oppose a system that empowers them to do so and demand change.

While in most cases it is not a life and death situation when it comes to the divorce laws in America and Europe, women do have the legal powers to make the life of their ex Husband and children hell. Men are told they should mitigate that problem by "marrying the right woman". I say an selfish maybe evil woman shouldn't be legally able to do, what she currently can legally do. A man should be able to marry the angriest most vindictive woman you can think of, without her being legally able to act on her character in divorce court, because our legal system empowers her.

Sadly that is not the case and these days men who are pressured by their sweetheart to finally propose are well adviced to meet her parents first and see what life is like for the last guy in that family who proposed. If you marry she has the loaded gun on your chest that is divorce, for the rest of your life, or a damocless sword if you prefer that comparison. There is a reason, divorce is something women use to threaten men with and not the other way around. There is a reason, divorce is something wifes hold over their husbands as a threat, a real threat most men seriously fear.

Now you are going to say, not all women are like that, but should a woman who is like that, be empowered by the legal system to be who she is?

April 1, 2011

@Memphis, your wife is an "unscrupulous person" or she cheated during one period of time when your marriage was falling apart? Or do you think they are the same thing?

well considering she cheated multiple times, although one is enough, yes, she is an unscrupulous person. cheating and being unscrupulous is the same thing, to me anyway. I know alot of people don't see cheating as bad or unscrupulous behavior.

ETA: What do you mean "that's what you thought" re where I said I think the woman should usually get custody? Did I not present very good reasons?

no, you didn't, and "thats what I thought" means exactly that.

April 1, 2011

well considering she cheated multiple times, although one is enough, yes, she is an unscrupulous person. cheating and being unscrupulous is the same thing, to me anyway. I know alot of people don't see cheating as bad or unscrupulous behavior.

no, you didn't, and "thats what I thought" means exactly that.

Memphis, I hate cheating and yes I did say the mother is most often the closest with the child and one parent has to be picked and that's way. But I guess you've decided I am the enemy and that's that so okay then.

April 1, 2011

Sweet and to the point:
BAN: CHILD CUSTODY PAYMENTS TO THE CUSTODIAL PARENT.
Instead --- create a bank fund that shows actual accounting for direct use of the funds for the child(/ren)- Medical, Clothing, School event.

I would LOVE to see this. I give my X PLENTY of money to take care of my kids. With what I pay, she should be buying them clothes at Abercrombie. She uses the money for what she wants and rarely buys them any new clothes and when she does, its ratty garage sale crap. I even told her that my kids look like trailer trash and to do right by them and buy them the clothes they deserve with the ample funds I provide.

side note: medical premiums are paid by me, and schooling extras I pay half. She has no excuse not to buy them nice clothes

Each parent gets equal custody time ...(provided neither is harmful or jeopardizes the childs health/wellbeing)

yup, this is fair.

Prenups- LOVE EM!!! I call it the true document of independency Ya dont marry someone for their stuff do ya?? Well maybe some do , which is why a prenup may be used to guard and protect. I personally call it my waiver of ever having to piggyback (mooch) off of someone elses good fortune.

well, I'm on the fence on the prenup thing. On one hand, it would be nice to protect oneself from those that don't have the truest intentions when entering marriage. On the other hand I'd almost see it that I don't trusts the person I'm marrying. If I didn't trust them, I wouldn't marry them.

But hindsight is 50/50

Yes more females get custody and not all are deserving, I've met far too many that care more for the "custodial" payments then the child. I got a former daughter in law that is evil extraordinary!.

April 1, 2011

Memphis, I hate cheating and yes I did say the mother is most often the closest with the child and one parent has to be picked and that's way. But I guess you've decided I am the enemy and that's that so okay then.

well you go off on some whole "woman bashing" thing, when its the system we are complaining about.

then you say that the mother is the one that should get custody. so yes, you are the enemy........to good fathers;)

April 1, 2011

well you go off on some whole "woman bashing" thing, when its the system we are complaining about.

then you say that the mother is the one that should get custody. so yes, you are the enemy........to good fathers;)

I whip my husband and make him write bad checks. ;o)

Edited April 1, 2011 by SummersEve

April 2, 2011

I don't think that anybody in this thread is bashing women. The anger is more with the system than with women in general. There are plenty of good women out there who would never do this but the system makes it very easy for the ones that do. As evidenced by Tinktronik many women have been the victims of this system as well. Family court system in general just needs major reform.

Of course the anger is with the system. An muslim in Afghanistan can have his wife stoned. Most muslims are good men and would not agree their wife be subjected to such a treatment, no matter what she does. Do we tell women, all they have to do is to find a good man? No we see that the problem is that evil men have the legal right to commit heinous acts and oppose a system that empowers them to do so and demand change.

While in most cases it is not a life and death situation when it comes to the divorce laws in America and Europe, women do have the legal powers to make the life of their ex Husband and children hell. Men are told they should mitigate that problem by "marrying the right woman". I say an selfish maybe evil woman shouldn't be legally able to do, what she currently can legally do. A man should be able to marry the angriest most vindictive woman you can think of, without her being legally able to act on her character in divorce court, because our legal system empowers her.

Sadly that is not the case and these days men who are pressured by their sweetheart to finally propose are well adviced to meet her parents first and see what life is like for the last guy in that family who proposed. If you marry she has the loaded gun on your chest that is divorce, for the rest of your life, or a damocless sword if you prefer that comparison. There is a reason, divorce is something women use to threaten men with and not the other way around. There is a reason, divorce is something wifes hold over their husbands as a threat, a real threat most men seriously fear.

Now you are going to say, not all women are like that, but should a woman who is like that, be empowered by the legal system to be who she is?

April 2, 2011

Sadly that is not the case and these days men who are pressured by their sweetheart to finally propose are well adviced to meet her parents first and see what life is like for the last guy in that family who proposed. If you marry she has the loaded gun on your chest that is divorce, for the rest of your life, or a damocless sword if you prefer that comparison. There is a reason, divorce is something women use to threaten men with and not the other way around. There is a reason, divorce is something wifes hold over their husbands as a threat, a real threat most men seriously fear.

Now you are going to say, not all women are like that, but should a woman who is like that, be empowered by the legal system to be who she is?

Quit dating 20 year olds and "gold-diggers" who expect a ring on their finger by the third date and you wouldn't have that problem.

Sorry Tib...there are many women out there that suffer the same exact fate that you are proposing on men in this forum....men who marry for status and money....just ask my exH. It's called trust..and when it's broken, well it just is.

As far as Muslim women getting stoned...those are "arranged marriages" and the women rejected being TOLD who to marry...it wasn't for love...IT WAS for money, prestige and family pride. Treated like cattle...give me a hundred rubies you can have my kid. No comparison, you don't have to continue to repeat it...my own father wanted to "sell" me off to the "rich" crowd..I just didn't buy into it. I preferred to make my own way in this world...oh...and I did!! Had my exH addressed his habitual drinking problems he would be here today. :rolleyes:

April 2, 2011

If there are women in the same situation its the more of a reason to do something about the laws and system in place dont you think? I do not get your reasoning. You just said not only men are affected, women are too, how does pointing out that something bad affects even moar people defends it? Its like saying not only women are killed for petty crimes under an extremist interpretation of Sharia law, men are too. It does not make any of it better.

Right now its still men in the vast majority of cases who are in a hard spot. I looked through your posts, when it came to your children, you had options even after the divorce a man doesnt, he gets access to the children as stipulated in the papers. Few mothers will grant him extra. Some will even deny him what is stipulated in the papers and the courts will not act or act slowly. And on top of that it is very unlikely for a man that any prenupt he made his wife sign would have been upheld in court. So it could have been much worse for you if you would have had the wrong gender.

But yes, some women are in a SIMILIAR situation and while I dont expect we will come across women who will be denied access to their children and the courts do nothing about it the way it happens to some fathers, many more women will have similiar experiences to men who divorce today, with many women being forced to accept somebody of lower status and income, or not marry at all.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Tiberius

April 2, 2011

What I am saying Tib is that most custody cases lean towards 50/50 joint custody in the eyes of the court. When it doesn't lean that way is when one spouse has a lawyer and the other doesn't or just doesn't have a good lawyer. Even with 50/50 custody, if the wife were to deny the husband visitation, he has the option to act on those court papers and enforce the 50/50 custody agreement. If one of the parents are unfit or criminal, that too can be a deciding factor on custody; however, it still comes down to having the right lawyer.

As to child support, it is a mathematical formula designed to ensure that the child is fully taken care of by both parents. In my situation, I am responsible for almost twice as much as he is, yet I ask him for nothing because he can't afford it. He takes care of some of our son's basic needs and that is just good enough.

Either party has the option to seek out a reduction or increase to the support order based on earnings and both parties can enforce what the papers stipulate for custody even after the divorce is done....it's not the courts that are biased in favor of women/mothers, it's the people and the skill of the attorney's who work the laws. Yes, there are devious people out there that will use the children in a divorce case, but I still feel that the courts are more fair these days than they used to be.

April 2, 2011

What I am saying Tib is that most custody cases lean towards 50/50 joint custody in the eyes of the court. When it doesn't lean that way is when one spouse has a lawyer and the other doesn't or just doesn't have a good lawyer. Even with 50/50 custody, if the wife were to deny the husband visitation, he has the option to act on those court papers and enforce the 50/50 custody agreement. If one of the parents are unfit or criminal, that too can be a deciding factor on custody; however, it still comes down to having the right lawyer.

As to child support, it is a mathematical formula designed to ensure that the child is fully taken care of by both parents. In my situation, I am responsible for almost twice as much as he is, yet I ask him for nothing because he can't afford it. He takes care of some of our son's basic needs and that is just good enough.

Either party has the option to seek out a reduction or increase to the support order based on earnings and both parties can enforce what the papers stipulate for custody even after the divorce is done....it's not the courts that are biased in favor of women/mothers, it's the people and the skill of the attorney's who work the laws. Yes, there are devious people out there that will use the children in a divorce case, but I still feel that the courts are more fair these days than they used to be.

These statements are only true in certain states.

There are still states that are very much opposed to 50/50 custody and do not offer it as a rule. And while CS is supposed to be done on a mathematical rule, that falls apart at county levels and by the hand of the specific CSE.

SOME courts in SOME states are fairer than they used to be. There is a LOT of catching up to do in other states.

Every time my exH moves to a new state there is a completely new set of rules to play by.

In our last state he was told by the judge that if he left the country without turning over our children or turned our children over to a third party without my consent the judge would switch custody.

In the new state he is being allowed to leave the country for unspecified amounts of time without notifying me, turn the kids over to a third party and I am told I have no say in the matter. That and when my visitation rolls around the third party need not even obey the agreement in place as she is not party to our agreement.

States vary so much still by how they chose to govern their family laws, and very often by county as well. Just because you may have gotten a fair shake in your county does not mean that anyone else is getting one in theirs.

April 2, 2011

One of my first jobs, was working to the local county clerk of the court. For those who are unaware, the clerk is responsible for keeping all of the records of the judicial system. The offical legal part of a divorce begins with the filing of a Divorce complaint with the Clerk of the court, who then records and keeps all of the subsequent paper work.

I later worked my way up into being the person who recorded the divorce decree and the usual Property Settlement Agreement.

This job sure soured my taste to getting married. Time after time I saw the man getting screwed. Yep in most cases, they got 50/50 custody of the offspring. But in most cases, the man got stuck with the child support payments, they are made to the county who reimburse them to the custodial parent. It also seemed that most often the mother got the home, and quite often the man had to pay the mortage and expenses, and alimony. And then the man would file to amend the decree as the wife had moved the OM into his house, but that would take time, and it almost had to be proved beyond the shadow of doubt.

The straw that broke the camels back was one that I had to put in, the guy owned several businesses, which they divided, with her getting the small movie theater, and him getting the lesser ones. She got the house that he had purchased long before they met, and the bills, and the alimony, and the child support and the new fancy car.

Not bad for less than two years of marriage, and being the mother of his young son.

Whoops, it was later proved that he was not the father, but that made no difference at that time. He was married to her when she conceived and bore the child so therefore he was the father.

He had one of the hottest attorneys in town, but she had him beat with shakey incidents of him abusing and hitting her and the child. That were pretty much disproved as one time he was definitely out of town thousands of miles away.

The lady judge stood firm and he wasted tens of thousands of dollars trying to get the judicial system to listen. Judges protect each other and they made it almost impossible to him to get another day in court.

Then at the bottom of the page of the PSA, he got a small shop that did custom carpentary work, plus his work truck and the tools in the truck and the dog "Spot" of an unknown and mixed breed.

Edited April 2, 2011 by 2.50 a gallon

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