My abusive childhood - or was I in fact the monster?

[WellLetsSee]

Hello guys,

 

this thread is first of all is going to be an attempt to come to terms with myself as to what really happened in my family. My problem here is that me myself, I do not have many solid memories about my parents and my ideas about what really happened in my past are pure chaos in my mind.

 

I am extremely ambivalent concerning what I think of my past in my family:

Did my parents abuse me or not?

Did I abuse my parents?

 

In fact with my father the picture by now has emerged much clearer. I am sure he has a personality disorder - Borderline. Still I am not sure if some of the things he did, really were harmful to me and if it can be considered abusive at all.

 

With my mother things are much more difficult for me. If she was abusive, from what I can remember her abuse must have been very subtle. She might have a personality disorder too. Narcissistic I would guess. But I am honestly very much at a loss when it comes to her. Hopefully when I start sharing about her, things will emerge in a much clearer light though for me.

 

And the third question which I am very unsure about is whether I have been abusive with my parents and my siblings. If you listen to what my parents repeatedly said about me - I appear as a sadistic, narcissistic, borderline, sociopathic monster who smokes up people as she goes and who has made life a hell for my whole family. Its a surprise even that they have all survived the hell with me. And I simply do not know if what they say contains any truth about me or if it is just all made up, or if I am in such great denial that what they said is completely true and they are victims only. And that in fact even nowadays I might still be acting like that and am in such extreme dellusion that I do perceive myself as an empathic, considerate, authentic, warm, generous and kind person despite being a sociopathic monster.

 

IT IS AN ENORMOUS MESS INSIDE ME. And it is ****ing time I start sorting through it. Apparently by simply waiting for an inspiration from up above - I might still be waiting on my death bed.

 

So in the posts to follow I will really start relating the little that I do remember. Anyone wanting to comment - you are welcome. Try to keep the hate and troll low though - if you can

[Eve]

H'mmm.. interesting..

 

Looking forward to reading your posts.

 

All the best

Take care,

Eve x

[dreamingoftigers]

Check out Toxic Parents.

 

I read that book awhile back, really helped put things into perspective. Borderline and NPD parents (I got both, lucky me too!) will blameshift and shame because they have no internal sense of responsibility.

 

Even if your behaviours were out of line as a child, you were not clinically responsible and they were responsible for how they as adults reacted to you.

 

I am willing to bet that you experienced multiples forms of abuse, typically children who act out are not created in a vacuum. I am not speaking about the typical toddler tantrums etc.

[WellLetsSee]

Sweet to read from you guys - it really takes some effort for me to "write out" all this stuff - somehow one part of me always wants give up and not try this (I have attempted this before in other places and situations, but never made it further than a few words).

 

I will check out the book. So far I have read a very good german book about Children of Borderline parents. I do not think there is a translation available in English. The title in English reads: "With broken wings: Children in Borderline-Relationsships".

 

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And before I start relating some situation with my mother. Few words about my family.

 

I am the eldest daughter, there is also my younger brother and my younger sister. I am on no-contact terms with all four of them. The only person I speak to is my elder half-brother (my fathers son) who grew up with his mother - so he doesnt feel like a brother to me even though i like him a lot - the way my brother and sister feel to me.

 

My mother is very succesful in her career. She has a PhD in Psychology and is a professor teaching at a college for social workers. My parents are divorced. My father has been changing career paths a lot - never having been very succesful in any of them.

 

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Ok what I want to relate is from when I was about 17. When I was 16 my sister had got a dog for her 10th bday. I dont remember well how I got the idea to do what I did, but I think from kids at school, I had seen pictures of people dressing up their pets with hats or shawls. You know these supposedly "funny" pictures. So at that time I thought this looked pretty funny and since my mum had got a videocamera from her work, I wanted to dress up our dog like that too to tape her. Just for the occasion to film her like that. The dog, was not too fond of it when I put the hat on her head and made her wear sun glasses too, but she didnt seem too annoyed either. She didnt bark or run away, but her tail hang low a little. So when my mum came in and saw what I was doing she appeared shocked and exclaimed: "H.! How can you do this? Dont you see that the dog is suffering? She hates to be treated like this! The dog is not there for your amusement. She has feelings too, you know. You really are a sadistic person. If you want to dress up someone - dress up your cuddly toys."

 

I dont remember what happened after that - probably I tried to argue, that there was no way she could know better than me whether our dog liked what I did and that the dog did not seem to care too much and maybe the dog actually liked the attention she was getting. But after complaining a little I certainly gave in - I would never have stood a chance against her.

 

At that time I very well knew what "sadistic" means - taking joy or pleasure in inflicting pain upon someone else. Was that sadistic what I did there? Is there something sadistic in me? I mean I was obviously in that situation not very considerate concerning the dog. Just because someone is passive it does not mean that they are happy with what you are doing to them.

 

But did I enjoy inflicting a pain on her? No.

 

What I maybe did enjoy though is the feeling of power I had over our dog - which is very hard for me to admit - I am extremely ashamed about that and very scared of myself. It was that thought of: You cannot escape me - I am stronger - you have to do what I want you to do.

 

Gosh this is so horrible - I really have to read again about Sadism.

 

 

... see this is a very typical thing to happen: My mom tells me I am this or that and then I am busy for years despising myself and trying to understand if it is actually true or not. While at the same time I am wondering if in fact telling me that I am sadistic like that wasnt abusive by her.

 

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Edited April 20, 2011 by WellLetsSee

[TaraMaiden]

I'm sorry... are you in therapy?

 

Because trust me - a public forum, open to internet searches by anybody who types in 'abusive childhood' is really not an optimum location to start baring your soul, examining your character, tendencies, habits, possible disorders or mental issues - or those, hypothetically, of your mother and father.

 

Particularly as you are, by your own admission, resistant to unsolicited advice.

 

And believe me I say none of this with any spite.

Quite the opposite.

Will you want this thread read by absolutely everyone and anyone who might come across it?

 

if you're in therapy, I really would stick with that until you're a little less fogged or confused by these issues.

[WellLetsSee]

Tara, after reading this old thread of yours, I figured that you like and respect the straight talk and I have decided therefore to be just straight with you: I do not like the tone (not so much the content) of your post, since my needs for respect, compassion and empathy are not being met. If you really only attempt to contribute to my well-being, I am telling you that this approach of yours has the contrary effect on me to what you are intending. And since I assume after reading through this thread of yours that the tone of how you write already is your trimmed down version - the two of us most likely wont be getting anywhere. Your style obviously works for others, but it definitely does not work for me.

[betterdeal]

I'm interested to hear more of what you have to say, WLS. What's your earliest childhood memory?

[TaraMaiden]

:laugh:

 

Well done...you don't get it.

As I suspected.....!

 

Ok, post away, I'll just watch from the sidelines and see how this goes down.

 

good luck with everything!

[WellLetsSee]

Betterdeal, you are here too.

 

Hmm what was my earliest? I honestly do not know. How do you tell what is the earliest memory? I mean there is no way for me of putting things in order like this, really. Maybe the earliest was when I tried to sit in the baby swing and realized that my legs did not fit in there anymore, since I was too big. Could have been when I was three, foru , five?

 

Is there any particular reason why you are asking?

[betterdeal]

.. see this is a very typical thing to happen: My mom tells me I am this or that and then I am busy for years despising myself and trying to understand if it is actually true or not. While at the same time I am wondering if in fact telling me that I am sadistic like that wasnt abusive by her.

 

It sounds like you were quite upset by this event. You were a young child. Had your parents taught you about animals having feelings? Where were you supposed to learn what they consider to be good or bad behaviour if not from them?

[betterdeal]

Betterdeal, you are here too.

 

Hmm what was my earliest? I honestly do not know. How do you tell what is the earliest memory? I mean there is no way for me of putting things in order like this, really. Maybe the earliest was when I tried to sit in the baby swing and realized that my legs did not fit in there anymore, since I was too big. Could have been when I was three, foru , five?

 

Is there any particular reason why you are asking?

 

Just curious.

[WellLetsSee]

It sounds like you were quite upset by this event. You were a young child. Had your parents taught you about animals having feelings? Where were you supposed to learn what they consider to be good or bad behaviour if not from them?

 

Thanks a lot for these questions - they help me to connect with what was alive in me and thereby help me gain some clarity.

 

Hmm I think at that very moment I wasnt that upset actually. Or better say - I was upset and angry and lonely, but since I was so very used to feeling like this in regards to my mother I didnt really notice it at that time. You know a bit like being numb really. I could not connect at that time with why I was upset, angry and lonely, since I actually had no idea at that time that I really had any needs at all. You know during my youth strong feelings of despair, hatred, fear and loneliness in connection with my parents were so NORMAL, that these emotions seemed to swep through me, without me ever having the inner space and emotional safety to really start connecting with my needs.

 

Why did I feel so deeply lonely in that very situation? This was because, I knew that I would never ever have a chance to make my mum hear me, hear why I behaved like that. There was never and still isnt the slightest chance that she will start realizing that I am a wonderful and amazing person by myself - something beautiful without being part of her.

 

The way she KNEW what our dog felt - just the same way she always KNEW how I felt and what I wanted. So once this woman had decided that I was sadistic there was no way for me to make her listen to how my own inner experience really was. I mean: She knew it already - why should she listen? And the even more harmful part about it is, that as her daughter I totally trusted her that she in fact could see inside my head. I really believed everything she said about me. She was the psychologist, she was the one who always told me about the dysfunctional families she worked with, she always told me about what the problem of that person is and what the problem of the other person is. I mean she obviously knew everything - so she had to know me, right?

 

So in this context - where she had the power to tell me who I am, what I feel, what I need, how I am, etc. - her remark that I was sadistic had very harmful re-percussions in my soul. And only slowly nowadays I really start awakening, to all the pain this emotionally abusive relation with my mother has created for me.

 

And still 80% of the time my echo voice of her in my head, keeps telling me who I am, rendering it almost impossible to really connect with what is alive in me. Therefore it is really so extremely crucial to uncover the past, to mourn and gain clarity, so that I will be able to make my own inner choices - to be free.

 

And since I already mentioned the word FREE. Here is one of my favourite quotes by

. I love her and am very grateful that this woman has walked this earth. Edited April 20, 2011 by WellLetsSee

[betterdeal]

You'be obviously thought this through quite a lot, and now you see how this difficult relationship with your mother affected your self-image. How does knowing that feel?

 

Our subconscious / inner child / soul is very simple and knows few words, and is where our feelings emanate from. On the other hand, the conscious mind knows lots of words and complex sentence structures and concepts.

 

What the inner child hears affects how he or she feels. Therefore, if our conscious mind is using key feel-good words, the inner child starts to feel good. Changing the words you use in your speech and thoughts to loving, beautiful, kind, positive, appreciative, safe words can make you feel loved, beautiful, kind, positive, appreciated, safe, funny.

 

This is partly why I talk about difficult relationships instead of abusive ones. It is also a neutral way to look at it, and easy to establish as true - did you find it difficult? If you say yes, then it was. We don't need to spend our energy on establishing blame or proving accusations. We can choose to spend it on creating a verbal landscape that nourishes the inner child, gives her the encouragement to come out, feel safe and let her know we know she is the loving, beautiful, kind, positive, appreciative person she knows she is.

 

How does what you have just read make you feel?

Edited April 20, 2011 by betterdeal

[Irishlove]

Hello guys,

 

this thread is first of all is going to be an attempt to come to terms with myself as to what really happened in my family. My problem here is that me myself, I do not have many solid memories about my parents and my ideas about what really happened in my past are pure chaos in my mind.

 

I am extremely ambivalent concerning what I think of my past in my family:

Did my parents abuse me or not?

Did I abuse my parents?

 

In fact with my father the picture by now has emerged much clearer. I am sure he has a personality disorder - Borderline. Still I am not sure if some of the things he did, really were harmful to me and if it can be considered abusive at all.

 

With my mother things are much more difficult for me. If she was abusive, from what I can remember her abuse must have been very subtle. She might have a personality disorder too. Narcissistic I would guess. But I am honestly very much at a loss when it comes to her. Hopefully when I start sharing about her, things will emerge in a much clearer light though for me.

 

And the third question which I am very unsure about is whether I have been abusive with my parents and my siblings. If you listen to what my parents repeatedly said about me - I appear as a sadistic, narcissistic, borderline, sociopathic monster who smokes up people as she goes and who has made life a hell for my whole family. Its a surprise even that they have all survived the hell with me. And I simply do not know if what they say contains any truth about me or if it is just all made up, or if I am in such great denial that what they said is completely true and they are victims only. And that in fact even nowadays I might still be acting like that and am in such extreme dellusion that I do perceive myself as an empathic, considerate, authentic, warm, generous and kind person despite being a sociopathic monster.

 

IT IS AN ENORMOUS MESS INSIDE ME. And it is ****ing time I start sorting through it. Apparently by simply waiting for an inspiration from up above - I might still be waiting on my death bed.

 

So in the posts to follow I will really start relating the little that I do remember. Anyone wanting to comment - you are welcome. Try to keep the hate and troll low though - if you can

I was abused by my mother and it's something you don't forget. If you can't remember chances are you weren't. What in the world are you wondering this for if you don't remember anyway? This doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Go to therapy. We are not licensed here to give you advice

[WellLetsSee]

Hey BD ... Bottom-to-Top Appraoch

 

How does what you have just read make you feel?

 

Very mixed feelings.

 

First of all reading the two questions you have asked me evoked some joyful, grateful and gentle feeling. This is because being asked like that gave me the sense that there really is a human being at the other end who is open and curious to hear about my own reality, to hear about my experience. It moves me actually to discover this capacity in people - it is very seldom in my experience. You know, people who have the capacity to be open and present and compassionate with what is alive in someone else. And I love it for 2 reasons.

 

"One" - because I have seen some extremely beautiful little miracles emerge when people really had the sense of being heard by someone else. I have seen what it did to friends of mine when I asked them feedback questions like this and it enormously sweet to be at the receving end of this.

 

"Two" - I love the sense of heart connection between people that can develop when this openness, presence and compassion is shared from both sides.

 

 

Secondly I felt helpless and tense and pain (all not too intense, but definitely there), because when reading the rest of your post my need for being heard and for respect for my needs was not being met.

 

But I do not want to elaborate on this any further in this very post (only for the moment). And this is because I am not sure if before doing that you would like to hear what I have heard you say in your last post and what I understand what is important to you? Do you wanna hear that? It would be my pleasure to write this.

 

 

You'be obviously thought this through quite a lot, and now you see how this difficult relationship with your mother affected your self-image. How does knowing that feel?

 

"Knowing" is a big word, when it comes to talking about my childhood and youth interactions with my parents. The sense of knowing and certainty that the post of mine expresses, is still extremely shaky. But in a way you are right - since I can feel that there was actually a tiny shift / a little bit of healing happening. Meaning: It is a tiny bit less shaky than before - I KNOW a little bit more. But to get to the point of really KNOWING - like deep down in the guts / be really sure about it - this might still take some time. Which I am ok with though. Slow change is good change for me - because that one is the one that stays, in my experience.

 

And since you asked me, how I feel about that ... well I feel grateful and relieved, because I can see what I am doing is actually helping me and secondly because even this tiny shift already makes life for me a bit more beautiful again.

Edited April 21, 2011 by WellLetsSee

[betterdeal]

How I can meet and respect your need to be heard?

Edited April 21, 2011 by betterdeal

[WellLetsSee]

How I can meet and respect your need to be heard?

 

I want to answer your question, but I will start with letting you know what I have heard you say in your earlier post and what I understood is important to you - even though I am not sure if you want to hear this. If you are not happy with this decision I would be happy to hear about this.

 

So here it goes... I heard/read you say/write, that:

 

You perceive the inner child as that part of yourself where your emotions emanate from. You did not say that, but Im guessing that you probably locate the inner child in your body somewhere in your second and third chakra? And from your own experience as well as from experiences other people which they have shared with you, you know that the way of communication for the inner child is very different from the way the conscious mind talks and thinks? The inner child uses a simpler and more easy to grasp language? The conscious mind is the one with all the abstract thinking and complex connection of words into sentences etc.? Did I get the point?

 

Furthermore you have made the experience and maybe heard/read about other people experiences how the feelings that emenate from the inner child/guts/soul are greatly influenced by the thought patterns of the conscious mind? So you have realized that when you start using words (in speech and thought) that meet your needs for love, beauty, kindness, positivity, appreciation, safety and care (?) - that when you start using these words you are able to meet the needs of your inner child and it/you therefore feels happy, relaxed, open, curious, lively, grateful (or whatever good feelings meeting those needs would evoke in you).

 

So when you use the word "difficult" instead of "abusive" it meets your need for compassion, respect, openness, clarity maybe?

 

Also maybe you like when speaking about your relationships rather from the perspective of your own experience (how you felt, what you needed) rather than speaking about what others did to you? You know like owning your own reality?

 

And also as you say "it is easy to establish as true" - I am guessing that this meets your need for clarity and certainty since it is more difficult to establish "abusive" as true (since you do not only need someone that was abused but someone who was abusing as well)?

 

Oh yes and furthermore I hear that saying "difficult" instead of "abusive" helps to meet your need for an efficient use of your resources/energies and especially gives you the chance to use your life energy for life-asserting, connecting, compassionate thoughts and actions instead of the life-disconnected state of blame and self-victimization?

 

Did I get you? How is hearing this for you?

 

PS.: I havent forgotten your question! Is it ok for you if I answer it after you answer my questions here first?

[betterdeal]

You're more or less there. However, I don't think going into the minutiae of my beliefs is something I want to do on a thread that's about you. I'm unsure what you want from this thread. Do you know?

Edited April 21, 2011 by betterdeal

[WellLetsSee]

You're more or less there. However, I don't think going into the minutiae of my beliefs is something I want to do on a thread that's about you. I'm unsure what you want from this thread. Do you know?

 

Yes I know.

 

You wanted to know what you can do to meet my need for being heard and the need for respect for my needs and feelings. In the current situation I am simply not sure enough if you are really open to hearing me, this has to do with my need for emotional security. Making sure that you felt heard first, was my attempt in gaining this security. Unfortunately there are no other means at the moment for communicating with you than in these public threads. I am not an established member yet.

 

Now, since I am still not sure enough if you are open to hearing me, I have decided to not answer your question for the time being and will here just continue with this thread. Hopefully we will manage to resolve this at another time.

[betterdeal]

As you wish. I find these exchanges a bit frustrating in that they appear to end up being about me. The apparent need for me to hear you seems misplaced. I think you want someone else to hear you, be that your parents or your self, and for them to appreciate the depth of feelings you have. I am fully aware that this is just my interpretation and that my reality is not a universal truth.

 

Today is a bright, sunny day here in England, and I have a hot yoga class I'm looking forward to in a couple of hours. I wish you well in your pursuit of happiness.

[Eve]

OP, I think you are pretty self aware and don't doubt that your Mum is too, given her level of education. I am unsure if what I see as a certain lack of parental warmth isn't actually a sort of concentrated over perception of a child. For example, after doing something naughty parents will often keep an extra close eye on a child.

 

Generally speaking, did you get into a lot of trouble growing up? or did your Mum mainly respond to naughty things more than the good things you would do?

 

I would still class this as a lack of parental warmth but I am wondering why your mum seems so focused on looking out for naughty behaviour. The story with the dog just seems like an odd interaction, due to your age at the time.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[TaraMaiden]

No, Eve, I don't believe she is self-aware.

i think there's a huge amount of insecurity, because the defensiveness and prickly responses would indicate to me that while on the one hand she is trying to be open and lay her experiences on the line, her defensiveness and - frankly - rudeness, is extremely off-putting.

 

She has the air of somebody confident, outspoken and determined, and seems to demonstrate the attitude that she knows what she wants, and that nobody is going to stand in her way from getting it - but in reality, she is fending off all attempts to deepen an understanding, and is turning everything round onto participants.

She did it to me, by rebutting my well-meant advice on self-exposure on such a public forum, with no appeal of thread or post deletion - and I was neither rude nor aggressively blunt with her - and she is now declining to engage with betterdeal even though his manner has been exceedingly courteous and his approach absolutely correct.

The minute, however, that someone even threatens to expose a chink in her armour, or to ruffle her feathers, there is a retreating and a fending off.

All couched in the politest possible terms - but a definite "lay off, you're invading my space".

 

This is a classic sign of an insecurity being defended to the hilt, and has nothing to do with her being self-aware.

It has everything to do with being a control freak.

And control freaks are notoriously terrified of probing.

 

I sincerely and wholeheartedly wish her well, and pray that she can find a solution to whatever questions she is asking.

But this is not the place to be asking them.

 

With metta,

 

TM.

[LittleTiger]

No, Eve, I don't believe she is self-aware.

i think there's a huge amount of insecurity, because the defensiveness and prickly responses would indicate to me that while on the one hand she is trying to be open and lay her experiences on the line, her defensiveness and - frankly - rudeness, is extremely off-putting.

 

She has the air of somebody confident, outspoken and determined, and seems to demonstrate the attitude that she knows what she wants, and that nobody is going to stand in her way from getting it - but in reality, she is fending off all attempts to deepen an understanding, and is turning everything round onto participants.

She did it to me, by rebutting my well-meant advice on self-exposure on such a public forum, with no appeal of thread or post deletion - and I was neither rude nor aggressively blunt with her - and she is now declining to engage with betterdeal even though his manner has been exceedingly courteous and his approach absolutely correct.

The minute, however, that someone even threatens to expose a chink in her armour, or to ruffle her feathers, there is a retreating and a fending off.

All couched in the politest possible terms - but a definite "lay off, you're invading my space".

 

This is a classic sign of an insecurity being defended to the hilt, and has nothing to do with her being self-aware.

It has everything to do with being a control freak.

And control freaks are notoriously terrified of probing.

 

I sincerely and wholeheartedly wish her well, and pray that she can find a solution to whatever questions she is asking.

But this is not the place to be asking them.

 

I agree with everything TM says here.

 

To the OP - if you're not already in therapy, I would suggest that is your best course of action. I don't think you're going to achieve whatever you were hoping to by posting on a public forum.

[Eve]

Personally, I did not read that much into the responses the OP gave to others here.

 

I am still interested in hearing what she has to say and don't think she should be told to go.

 

Maybe it's just her posting style? She has not made 1.2 million posts in 4 days such as others here. At least permit her to get into stride.

 

If she is a psycho, all will become apparent. Half the people on this site are psycho anyway.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[betterdeal]

Every journey starts with a first step. I think WLS has been very brave to open up as much as she has by starting this thread, and is very self-aware. If you face the choice of being right or being happy, which will you choose?