25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

"______ is what i need - and i would like it to be from YOU. IF it's not going to come from you - i will find that outside of our relationship, or i will choose to end this non-relationship that we have called marriage. are you going to give me that or not?"

 

that is honesty. that IS giving them a chance to offer to you - what you know you want for happiness. IF your wife isn't willing to provide that for you - how can she argue it... knowing that it keeps you from the happiness you deserve and expect?

 

That IS such a clear way to put it, and something I will absolutely do. I'd imagine the only reason she'd protest is that she'd be afraid to lose what we do have (as am I). But I hope you're right that whatever the answer is, it's clear enough that it can't really be disputed by either of us.

[2sunny]

That IS such a clear way to put it, and something I will absolutely do. I'd imagine the only reason she'd protest is that she'd be afraid to lose what we do have (as am I). But I hope you're right that whatever the answer is, it's clear enough that it can't really be disputed by either of us.

 

the illusion that you'd lose what you have is just that - an illusion. how can you lose what you don't have? no one is saying that you have to let go of what does work for you two.

 

even though i'm not with my exH now - after MANY years together... no one can take away what we DID have. i have my relationship with my boys and he has his. when we correspond - it is on a level of maturity, love, compassion for consideration of the other and for our kids best interest. i do not step in physically - nor do i give him the idea that i would... as he is remarried to someone else.

 

no one can take away what we DO have. it was merely an acknowledgement to move forward knowing what was never possible to begin with. an admission of what IS = instead of continuing to pretend that we MIGHT have something when we really had very little in common to begin with.

 

the relationships do change... but essentially they are healthier and remain intact with a stronger understanding and clarity about the reality of what is or is not.

 

what i'm saying is"how can you let go of something you don't have?" that is the illusion...

Edited April 28, 2011 by 2sunny

[NickFeek]

the illusion that you'd lose what you have is just that - an illusion. how can you lose what you don't have? no one is saying that you have to let go of what does work for you two.

 

even though i'm not with my exH now - after MANY years together... no one can take away what we DID have. i have my relationship with my boys and he has his. when we correspond - it is on a level of maturity, love, compassion for consideration of the other and for our kids best interest. i do not step in physically - nor do i give him the idea that i would... as he is remarried to someone else.

 

no one can take away what we DO have. it was merely an acknowledgement to move forward knowing what was never possible to begin with. an admission of what IS = instead of continuing to pretend that we MIGHT have something when we really had very little in common to begin with.

 

the relationships do change... but essentially they are healthier and remain intact with a stronger understanding and clarity about the reality of what is or is not.

 

what i'm saying is"how can you let go of something you don't have?" that is the illusion...

 

I believe I need to print this whole post out and tack it to my wall!

[2sunny]

believe me when i say - my heart is heavy for you right now... sad i am...

[NickFeek]

believe me when i say - my heart is heavy for you right now... sad i am...

 

Thank you. Right now there's nothing I feel more strongly than sadness. And I know how crushed she is. And I know it has to get worse before it gets better. So I appreciate that you understand.

[NickFeek]

She doesn't love you.

 

I think it's more complicated than that. There are other ways she loves me. But with a blockage this fundamental, it feels like she doesn't.

[2sunny]

I think it's more complicated than that. There are other ways she loves me. But with a blockage this fundamental, it feels like she doesn't.

 

since she took two years to commit to the marriage in a way that is within the "norms" and hasn't made an effort to emotionally and spiritually get connected with you on a level that you have asked for - it does make me think that something happened when she was younger that traumatized her to the point where she will just not allow herself to break free of what has held her back.

 

this is NOT your fault. SHE could change that IF she wanted to - but when a counselor takes her to that point = you have said that she runs away every time. it's something she isn't willing to address... and you can't make her.

 

her work is her safe place. a place to hide from anyone who demands emotions from her.

 

since she won't go there emotionally and get past her fear - she doesn't leave much hope for anything to change. no matter how much you push for change - if she's not willing to get into action - she will stay stuck knowing she is road blocking herself. you can't do it for her.

 

you can move past this on your own. either learn what happy looks like for you on your own (even if you stay - feeding that illusion and growing it even bigger) - or move forward without her - knowing you are no longer with her by your side - and you won't feed into the illusion any longer.

[NickFeek]

since she took two years to commit to the marriage in a way that is within the "norms" and hasn't made an effort to emotionally and spiritually get connected with you on a level that you have asked for - it does make me think that something happened when she was younger that traumatized her to the point where she will just not allow herself to break free of what has held her back.

 

this is NOT your fault. SHE could change that IF she wanted to - but when a counselor takes her to that point = you have said that she runs away every time. it's something she isn't willing to address... and you can't make her.

 

her work is her safe place. a place to hide from anyone who demands emotions from her.

 

since she won't go there emotionally and get past her fear - she doesn't leave much hope for anything to change. no matter how much you push for change - if she's not willing to get into action - she will stay stuck knowing she is road blocking herself. you can't do it for her.

 

you can move past this on your own. either learn what happy looks like for you on your own (even if you stay - feeding that illusion and growing it even bigger) - or move forward without her - knowing you are no longer with her by your side - and you won't feed into the illusion any longer.

 

I do think there have been years where I felt it was my fault. And I know I made the situation worse by being too defensive or forceful or self-sabotaging. But I am beginning to see for the first time that her wall is HER wall, and that I don't feel fulfilled or loved living behind it with her anymore. We will talk this weekend.

[2sunny]

read the book Co-Dependent No More

 

your happiness should not need to depend upon what someone else is or isn't doing. that is only up to you. to hand over that kind of power to anyone makes life completely out of balance.

 

this book helps target where that thinking is off - and how to gain a more balanced approach and perspective.

[lovingwhatis]

Nick and 2sunny,

 

While I agree that focusing on You is really key, I don't see how saying to her in the manner suggested what your needs are would be beneficial.

 

I stumbled upon this article yesterday and found it intriguing. In it the author suggests that when we are defensive and going into survival mode, we act in ways that are very uncharacteristic and others may feel understandably threatened. I know I've done it when i was afraid.

 

http://blogs.psychcentral.com/relationships/2011/04/what-defensiveness-means-in-your-couple-relationship/

 

 

Love this quote:

 

3. Reactivity indicates a blame pattern of thinking. A mindset of blame renders us feeling “powerless” as it causes us to “think” that we cannot be happy, or feel loved, valued, or deserving, etc., unless so and so, or such and such, does x, y or z.

 

Also, you in your mind are convinced that your W will only benefit from IC or MC. There is a breathing therapy that I have found very effective, it is literally a process of breathing in a special way for about 45 mins, and that activates subconscious patterns to be reprogrammed.

 

Some things to think about before talking to her this weekend... After your talk on Mon you seem pretty reactive in that you are feeling ready to either fight or flight. In this state I can see only one outcome. I truly hope you can get some space in your head before confronting her...

 

i've known people like this... and when they were honest with their spouse they sat them down and said...

 

"______ is what i need - and i would like it to be from YOU. IF it's not going to come from you - i will find that outside of our relationship, or i will choose to end this non-relationship that we have called marriage. are you going to give me that or not?"

 

that is honesty. that IS giving them a chance to offer to you - what you know you want for happiness. IF your wife isn't willing to provide that for you - how can she argue it... knowing that it keeps you from the happiness you deserve and expect?

 

it's honest. it's real. it gets your cards out on the table with clear, concise instructions about what she needs to do. IF she says no - then you have your answer.

 

no more playing that game. the game has played to the end... time to be honest and get into reality. if she offers nothing... you then understand fully well she isn't going to give effort to your basics needs for what happy looks like for you.

[2sunny]

i never used the word "confront"

 

i simply said be honest about what HE is willing or not willing to do - according to what his needs are.

 

there is no "confrontation" about any of that... it's simply a statement of facts.

 

there is also no "reacting" from him in that situation either... you are twisting what info i have provided...

[lovingwhatis]

2sunny, the statement below, unless said in an extremely calm, peaceful, non reactive manner, sounds confrontational and a bit of an ultimatum. Considering where Nick and his W have been, I don't see how a talk like this can occur without it being construed as a confrontation. Plus, you have been advising him to confront her in general.

 

"______ is what i need - and i would like it to be from YOU. IF it's not going to come from you - i will find that outside of our relationship, or i will choose to end this non-relationship that we have called marriage. are you going to give me that or not?"

[2sunny]

2sunny, the statement below, unless said in an extremely calm, peaceful, non reactive manner, sounds confrontational and a bit of an ultimatum. Considering where Nick and his W have been, I don't see how a talk like this can occur without it being construed as a confrontation. Plus, you have been advising him to confront her in general.

 

"______ is what i need - and i would like it to be from YOU. IF it's not going to come from you - i will find that outside of our relationship, or i will choose to end this non-relationship that we have called marriage. are you going to give me that or not?"

 

there is NO reason to be anything but calm, relaxed and peaceful when he is merely making a statement.

 

if you knew me - you could understand - my voice is extremely peaceful, soothing and inviting - kind of interesting- because someone even said that in a meeting this morning - they stated - when i hear her soothing voice it reminds me that it's easy to feel connected to angels. ahahaha, crazy, but true for many, so i am told.

[2sunny]

Plus, you have been advising him to confront her in general.

 

no - i haven't... i have been telling him to have a voice and speak HIS truth!

 

BIG difference! not at all the same as a confrontation. i never suggested confront.

 

please stop putting words in MY mouth!

[lovingwhatis]

That's awesome, 2sunny! I am glad you have this effect on people who come in contact with you. Please don't take it the wrong way though, but your written words come off as a bit brash. I get the essence of what you are saying, but I feel that in this particular instance you are advocating to Nick, who is in turmoil and in a reactive state, to press his W in a way that I am not sure will result in anything but her becoming even more resistant... I am just contemplating of other ways to maybe deal with this situation , ways that may change the paradigm...

 

Of course anything I am saying is just that, words, and can be taken or left.

 

there is NO reason to be anything but calm, relaxed and peaceful when he is merely making a statement.

 

if you knew me - you could understand - my voice is extremely peaceful, soothing and inviting - kind of interesting- because someone even said that in a meeting this morning - they stated - when i hear her soothing voice it reminds me that it's easy to feel connected to angels. ahahaha, crazy, but true for many, so i am told.

[2sunny]

That's awesome, 2sunny! I am glad you have this effect on people who come in contact with you. Please don't take it the wrong way though, but your written words come off as a bit brash. I get the essence of what you are saying, but I feel that in this particular instance you are advocating to Nick, who is in turmoil and in a reactive state, to press his W in a way that I am not sure will result in anything but her becoming even more resistant... I am just contemplating of other ways to maybe deal with this situation , ways that may change the paradigm...

 

Of course anything I am saying is just that, words, and can be taken or left.

 

i never said "press" his wife. i said state what he is or isn't willing to do... how is THAT pressing his wife?

 

again - you put words in my mouth - now stop it!

 

brash? your perception is yours... brash, i am not... honest = yes. i speak MY truth -IF you find that brash... i can't help you there.

 

my suggestion was to take him away from that turmoil and REACTIVE state - by trying out honesty with his wife... stating what his needs are. there is only honesty in that - anything less isn't real or useful. we can see what pretending has gotten them. being neutral is key - i would never suggest having that conversation when emotions aren't neutral for that is not useful.

[lovingwhatis]

We are obviously not seeing eye to eye on this, and im ok with that. Im sorry if you feel like i was "putting words in your mouth".

[NickFeek]

Wow, I step away for a minute and there's a war!

 

I don't think I can respond to everything, and I'll leave the stuff that was to each other between you two. But a few things....

 

I think it's possible to be clear about what I need from this marriage without being confrontational, and although several days ago I might have interpreted 2sunny's manner to be a little forceful, I've now come to understand it as clear and direct. And just so there are no hard feelings, I benefit from BOTH of your insights and approaches.

 

I also think that her needs have to be included, as we've been saying, which is another way for the conversation to be NOT about confrontation but about CLARITY.

 

Lovingwhatis, that passage about being reactive sounds very true, buy until I read further I thought you were talking about my wife! Not to say I haven't been reactive or fight-or-flight in the past - OFTEN - but I don't feel that way at all now, and all this weekend made me was scared and sad. As well as more determined than ever to make things clear for both of us. I think the description IS more apt for my wife. Considering what I've put her through lately, it's no wonder she'd be defensive, etc. But I can tell you it's not because of how I'm responding to her. I've been receptive to everything she's said and every mood she's been in.

 

In short, I think all of this will be conducive to a calm and clear talk this weekend, of whenever it is she recovers from her dental surgery.

 

Finally, I AM willing to try and suggest anything, but my wife doing special breathing is almost as unlikely as her doing IC or MC. But I WILL suggest it, because in desperate times you never know what a person will fo.

 

Thanks for all the feedback and fireworks!

[lovingwhatis]

Nick, but from your scaredess comes your reactivity! Im just telling you what i perceive, when i read the article i was thinking of your words and how you've been. You both seem reactive. And understandably so-your m is on the line.

 

Maybe its a projection on your part, call it whatever you want, but the way you've been concerned with Her and her healing by saying that it will be the thing that will make or break this situation, this is indirectly blaming her for the possible demise of the m. Because it ends up not being about you.

 

It feels like part of you is there to stay and work through, and part of you has already been with one foot out the door...

[NickFeek]

Nick, but from your scaredess comes your reactivity! Im just telling you what i perceive, when i read the article i was thinking of your words and how you've been. You both seem reactive. And understandably so-your m is on the line.

 

Maybe its a projection on your part, call it whatever you want, but the way you've been concerned with Her and her healing by saying that it will be the thing that will make or break this situation, this is indirectly blaming her for the possible demise of the m. Because it ends up not being about you.

 

It feels like part of you is there to stay and work through, and part of you has already been with one foot out the door...

 

Okay I see what you're saying now. Described that way, I am reactive. And mercurial. At this point, I'm blaming both of us, and it's keeping that in mind that allows me to converse with her without getting defensive or angry. But in my heart I am torn, and she knows it. I've been one foot out the door for a while. I'm not sure I know another way to be. With little or no assurance from her end, and with the mistake I made, I don't feel confident that staying is the way to go, especially when I HAVE experienced what it would be like to feel wanted & attended to & loved (and not just physically). Yet if I thought we COULD make everything work, I would much rather stay. There's no better way to say it, but my heart is torn in two - not broken but split right down the middle.

[lovingwhatis]

Ok, i did a query for you with the i-ching and the answer is remarkably in the same vein as your words. Here is what it says:

 

48. The Well (this is the actual ching, the source of higher Truth)- don't remain locked in a conventional view of the way things work.

 

Whether we are able to understand the counsel of Universal truth depends on our state of mind. To benefit from the counsel of iching we need to be free of personal, selfish motives, and preconceived ideas. We should search our inmost thoughts for self-indulgent, self-satisfied, or self-important feelings that would causes us to bypass true self-development or ruin the work we have achieved. In thinking we already know, we are unable to grasp what it is really saying.

 

Line1, One doesn't drink the mud of the well. Mud is symbol of involvement with trivialities or externals.

Line 4 Well is being lined: It means the time is not ripe to achieve our goals. Spend time for self-development. In relation to another, their well is being lined, he/she is working on themselves through relationship to Higher power.

Line 6. One draws from the well without hindrance. The hindrances to understanding are overcome. Through understanding the truth of the matter, and correcting ourselves, we are able to bear with the mistakes of others. In knowing that their mistakes are like ours- caused by hidden fears and misconceptions - we are able to be compassionate.

 

Then the derivative hex is 1, which is the Creative/male principle. It is very very good hex.

 

"In the i ching cosmology the human being stands posted between heaven and earth, with a foot in either, so to speak. We draw this hex when we begin to think that external affairs are the only reality. We forget that everything in the external world is activated and dependent on the higher reality. The image of having a foot in either world means that we cannot disregard the Higher Principle: it is present and central to every question.

 

The person who has achieved strength of character remembers the difficulty he had in correcting himself: therefore, he is able to remain tolerant of those who have not yet developed themselves. He avoids losing his inner independence and detachment by resisting the clamoring of his childish heart. Because he is reticent, he created a respect for reticence: because he is tolerant, he creates tolerance; through his sincerity he activates respect and love for truth in others.

 

Okay I see what you're saying now. Described that way, I am reactive. And mercurial. At this point, I'm blaming both of us, and it's keeping that in mind that allows me to converse with her without getting defensive or angry. But in my heart I am torn, and she knows it. I've been one foot out the door for a while. I'm not sure I know another way to be. With little or no assurance from her end, and with the mistake I made, I don't feel confident that staying is the way to go, especially when I HAVE experienced what it would be like to feel wanted & attended to & loved (and not just physically). Yet if I thought we COULD make everything work, I would much rather stay. There's no better way to say it, but my heart is torn in two - not broken but split right down the middle.

[NickFeek]

1. We should search our inmost thoughts for self-indulgent, self-satisfied, or self-important feelings that would causes us to bypass true self-development or ruin the work we have achieved. In thinking we already know, we are unable to grasp what it is really saying.

 

2. Well is being lined: It means the time is not ripe to achieve our goals. Spend time for self-development. In relation to another, their well is being lined, he/she is working on themselves through relationship to Higher power.

 

3. In knowing that their mistakes are like ours- caused by hidden fears and misconceptions - we are able to be compassionate.

 

4. Then the derivative hex is 1, which is the Creative/male principle. It is very very good hex.

 

5. The person who has achieved strength of character remembers the difficulty he had in correcting himself: therefore, he is able to remain tolerant of those who have not yet developed themselves.

 

Thank you! I singled out the lines above (and numbered them) to comment on.

 

1. I think this is where I am now, though in truth I probably bounce from self-examination to thinking I already know. But in the end the not-knowing wins out every day (so far!).

 

2. This is definitely the case for both of us. Though I could be making assumptions about her, I do believe some kind of self-development is happening, at the very least because she's been thrust into a completely new & unexpected situation & rethinking of her life. This is why I'm not rushing to a decision.

 

3. This is what keeps me from just up & leaving. I must admit I'm extremely tired. My brother (an insightful guy and a psychologist) said to me once (paraphrased), "Marriage is hard work, but there is such a thing as having to work TOO hard."

 

4. Can you tell me more about this hex?

 

5. I have not always been this way towards my wife. I feel I have reached this point now. And I think I can remain this way, but only because I do not intend to allow us to revert to our normal mode of existence. And yet, I go back to my point #3 above. Only so much time can go by waiting for a person to develop before you need to conclude that it's possible they never will.

[lovingwhatis]

Ah Nick, but you took the primary points out and focused on the secondary ones. To me, the gist of his reading is to let go of trying to be You who does it, go trustinb higher power. I know this is an absolutely loaded topic, but i feel it comes to this. When are you going to surrender control to the Sage? Thinking can only get one so far. Trust me, i know how difficult that can be, for i im as insistant as you to be the one who does it. Im also faced with a situation that is requiring this trust of me too, and it has been a challenge. That's why i resonate with you.

 

Hex 1 is the one that directly pointing to letting go of the unferior man and allowing the Creative to take over and accept guidance. The results can be splendid.

 

Sounds like you are coming to the threshlod of your pain. Pain's a good motivator.

 

And one more thingm ask your W as to how she perceives you, very specifically. You may be surprised. You do have a lot of understanding, but your holding on seems to be clouding your vision....

Thank you! I singled out the lines above (and numbered them) to comment on.

 

1. I think this is where I am now, though in truth I probably bounce from self-examination to thinking I already know. But in the end the not-knowing wins out every day (so far!).

 

2. This is definitely the case for both of us. Though I could be making assumptions about her, I do believe some kind of self-development is happening, at the very least because she's been thrust into a completely new & unexpected situation & rethinking of her life. This is why I'm not rushing to a decision.

 

3. This is what keeps me from just up & leaving. I must admit I'm extremely tired. My brother (an insightful guy and a psychologist) said to me once (paraphrased), "Marriage is hard work, but there is such a thing as having to work TOO hard."

 

4. Can you tell me more about this hex?

 

5. I have not always been this way towards my wife. I feel I have reached this point now. And I think I can remain this way, but only because I do not intend to allow us to revert to our normal mode of existence. And yet, I go back to my point #3 above. Only so much time can go by waiting for a person to develop before you need to conclude that it's possible they never will.

[NickFeek]

Ah Nick, but you took the primary points out and focused on the secondary ones. To me, the gist of his reading is to let go of trying to be You who does it, go trustinb higher power. I know this is an absolutely loaded topic, but i feel it comes to this. When are you going to surrender control to the Sage? Thinking can only get one so far. Trust me, i know how difficult that can be, for i im as insistant as you to be the one who does it. Im also faced with a situation that is requiring this trust of me too, and it has been a challenge. That's why i resonate with you.

 

Hex 1 is the one that directly pointing to letting go of the unferior man and allowing the Creative to take over and accept guidance. The results can be splendid.

 

Sounds like you are coming to the threshlod of your pain. Pain's a good motivator.

 

And one more thingm ask your W as to how she perceives you, very specifically. You may be surprised. You do have a lot of understanding, but your holding on seems to be clouding your vision....

 

I absolutely want to ask my W that! Very good idea.

 

The thing is, there has to be some tangible description of what that letting go is for it to be applicable. If I were to try to define it, it would be a sort of meditation, where you allow all aspects of life, your problem, etc. to free float, and then somewhere in the subconscious things start to click in a way that reveals answers to you. I've done this in other areas of life, but damn true I've been unable to let go in my marriage in this way, not enough to follow my instinct at any rate. OR the truer statement might be I've felt in some way what that letting go would mean, and have been scared to confront/admit it. Then again, it could be that the REAL answer is behind that fear.

 

My way of approaching other challenges has been to follow my instinct. If it says yes, then DO first & work it out later. I never used to be that way, and back then my life was extremely unfulfilling - crippled by fear & over-thinking. Once I turned over that leaf, I sloughed off SO MUCH of my anxiety & fear, and have been reaping a ton of rewards. This is sort of the flip side of your idea of not thinking too much. I've found that in almost every case, if I've ended up doing something I don't want to continue (which has been increasingly rare), I am able to let it go and feel at peace that I at least gave it a try. This has turned out for me to be the most direct & successful way to answer so many questions in my life. Not as easy to do when a wife & family are involved, I know, but I'm leaning in that direction.

 

Good luck with your situation. If it's anything like mine, you deserve some hugs too!

[lovingwhatis]

Thanks, Nick! I appreciate the hugs! My situation isn't as complex as yours, but the principles at work are similar.

 

Yes, letting go in relationships is difficult, and not as clear cut as in other life situations. It feels like we are carrying other people, and appears to be more difficult to let go. But, letting go doesn't mean giving up!

 

It is awesome that you were able to trascend your fears in other aspects of your life. I like how you described that yes sometimes your gut feelings weren't correct, but overall have been getting better. I mean, our subconscoius mind is notoriously full of all kinds of info, doesn't it make more sense to find ways to tap that info? Again though, I am talking about the higher consciousness and I have the distinct feeling that you know what I mean, even though you are avoiding going there (i totally respect that, btw).

 

For me, I have had such remarkable moments of surrender with great changes following that I just simply cannot ignore that, nor my mind can't explain it away like it has in the past.

 

Keep us posted on your talk and have a good evening.