25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[trippi1432]

All in all it's a mixed back. I stand by my usual argument that my only real beef is not with the division of labor but with her inability to cut at least a handful of hours off her work schedule each week.

 

My thoughts are that this is because what you are lacking is not so much the division of labor, but the quality time spent together with both her and as a family. Quality time is not scrubbing floors, doing the dishes, cooking and cleaning. It is spending time reading to the kids, helping with homework, tucking your child into bed. Seems you are both meeting the kids needs.

 

Perhaps I haven't gotten what Nick's issue is clearly; however, I have been under the impression for about 40 pages now that the cutting of the hours was to get back some quality time with his wife so they could find better intimacy in their marriage.

 

I wasn't aware that we were supposed to call out another brow-beating on Nick's wife for her culpability in being a bad wife and mother .... leading to other's trying to move Nick in the direction of validating his affair. Sorry Nick....this board is supposed to help people....I apologize that it continues to paint your wife as an uncaring, uptight, abusive and horrible mother who would abandoned her children. However, I do like the fact that you do not play party to it and really know your wife....better than those here making assumptions.

 

At this time, perhaps what Nick and his wife needs is some SUPPORT. Brow beating his wife who, as he has stated many times is working with him and they are trying to make it work as a WE instead of two I's working against each other,...frankly, I find it in bad taste and poor form.

[NickFeek]

My thoughts are that this is because what you are lacking is not so much the division of labor, but the quality time spent together with both her and as a family. Quality time is not scrubbing floors, doing the dishes, cooking and cleaning. It is spending time reading to the kids, helping with homework, tucking your child into bed. Seems you are both meeting the kids needs.

 

Perhaps I haven't gotten what Nick's issue is clearly; however, I have been under the impression for about 40 pages now that the cutting of the hours was to get back some quality time with his wife so they could find better intimacy in their marriage.

 

I wasn't aware that we were supposed to call out another brow-beating on Nick's wife for her culpability in being a bad wife and mother .... leading to other's trying to move Nick in the direction of validating his affair. Sorry Nick....this board is supposed to help people....I apologize that it continues to paint your wife as an uncaring, uptight, abusive and horrible mother who would abandoned her children. However, I do like the fact that you do not play party to it and really know your wife....better than those here making assumptions.

 

At this time, perhaps what Nick and his wife needs is some SUPPORT. Brow beating his wife who, as he has stated many times is working with him and they are trying to make it work as a WE instead of two I's working against each other,...frankly, I find it in bad taste and poor form.

 

To confirm, yes, my intention is for us to have more quality time together. She was very upset this week that we did not talk more, yet I was more diligent than ever in looking for the time we would have needed to do that, and did not find it. We ended up talking at 2:30am last night - it was an extremely productive conversation, can't emphasize that enough, but it pains me that this is the best we can do schedule-wise.

[2sunny]

Deep down I do agree that to have to thank her for these things shows the lack of balance in our home. But I'm trying to see everything from her perspective,

 

 

BIG problem!!!! BIG!

 

you seeing HER perspective = you WILL lose track of YOU!

 

you get YOU healthy - then OFFER healthy you to others - including her!

 

 

to watch her be completely out of balance - then spending time and energy trying to connect with her (knowing she is out of balance) is just reinforcing what you already know... that she wants you to bend... bend to the place where SHE is at... and give HER kudos for a moment of decency.

 

the question remains... does she intend to work a LOT? does she EVEN WANT TO be home/spend time with her hubby and family? because IF she really doesn't want to - and YOU are making her DO this - it will never look happy! no matter how much positive reinforcement you give her!

[2sunny]

This is actually very helpful, because of how specific it is. Let me paint a clearer picture.

 

On school days, my wife does all lunches, splits breakfast & clothes with me. She does baths about half the time, puts at least one of the kids to bed every night. She is not usually home early enough to help with homework, but she does at least half of the studying for tests help, and helps with homework on weekends. She does read to & play with our little one often, though not every day. She does at least half of the laundry in any given week. There are cleaning jobs she does that I never do, and vice versa, so that's fairly balanced.

 

As for the third kid, we're certainly not sorry to have him, but we are looking forward to him starting school full time next year, which will help balance out MY hours with the kids at least, and save lots of money on babysitting that we could then be using for more leisure activities for the two of us.

 

All in all it's a mixed back. I stand by my usual argument that my only real beef is not with the division of labor but with her inability to cut at least a handful of hours off her work schedule each week.

 

i honestly think YOU confuse yourself with all the justifying Nick.

 

you give plenty of evidence of what doesn't work for you and the kids... then when OTHERS point out how out of balance it is - you completely defend her! which is it?

 

you give hard evidence that she works too much - then you give evidence that she's a good Mom. sometimes i think you don't know what you think.

 

it can't possibly be both - with all of what you've given here...

[2sunny]

intimacy - seems to be what is missing... if you are finding it at 230am... then that is better than none... but it may be useful to make a date with her - and hire a babysitter once a week - instead of chatting in the middle of the night.

 

make time away from the chaos of home/work life for each other... even by taking a night time walk several evenings each week. hire a college student to come by for an hour or so - that way you two can get time to BE together without all the chaos and distractions.

[soserious1]

My thoughts are that this is because what you are lacking is not so much the division of labor, but the quality time spent together with both her and as a family. Quality time is not scrubbing floors, doing the dishes, cooking and cleaning. It is spending time reading to the kids, helping with homework, tucking your child into bed. Seems you are both meeting the kids needs.

 

Perhaps I haven't gotten what Nick's issue is clearly; however, I have been under the impression for about 40 pages now that the cutting of the hours was to get back some quality time with his wife so they could find better intimacy in their marriage.

 

I wasn't aware that we were supposed to call out another brow-beating on Nick's wife for her culpability in being a bad wife and mother .... leading to other's trying to move Nick in the direction of validating his affair. Sorry Nick....this board is supposed to help people....I apologize that it continues to paint your wife as an uncaring, uptight, abusive and horrible mother who would abandoned her children. However, I do like the fact that you do not play party to it and really know your wife....better than those here making assumptions.

 

At this time, perhaps what Nick and his wife needs is some SUPPORT. Brow beating his wife who, as he has stated many times is working with him and they are trying to make it work as a WE instead of two I's working against each other,...frankly, I find it in bad taste and poor form.

 

Excuse me but I'm not "brow beating" anyone, nor am I excusing Nick's affair, the comments I'm making are based on the information provided directly by Nick .Sorry but he's posted here more than once that she doesn't get home till 10 or 11pm at least 4 nites per week, that there have been nites that she sleeps at the office and that this has been ongoing for several years. These people have a 3 yr old, sorry but there's no way that schedule leaves time to nurture and properly bond with an infant.

 

And I am confused here some info Nick gives makes me think all he does is work, caretake for kids & clean the house, yet when I speak up about his wife's hours or the impossibility of her being a great mother when she doesn't come home till after 10pm most nites, Nick then defends her.. help a girl out here please

Edited August 12, 2011 by soserious1

[NickFeek]

Excuse me but I'm not "brow beating" anyone, nor am I excusing Nick's affair, the comments I'm making are based on the information provided directly by Nick .Sorry but he's posted here more than once that she doesn't get home till 10 or 11pm at least 4 nites per week, that there have been nites that she sleeps at the office and that this has been ongoing for several years. These people have a 3 yr old, sorry but there's no way that schedule leaves time to nurture and properly bond with an infant.

 

And I am confused here some info Nick gives makes me think all he does is work, caretake for kids & clean the house, yet when I speak up about his wife's hours or the impossibility of her being a great mother when she doesn't come home till after 10pm most nites, Nick then defends her.. help a girl out here please

 

I won't get involved in the tiff here, but I do need to continue to clarify.

 

I have never said she's a bad parent. In fact I've said many times throughout this thread that there's no one else I'd rather be a parent to my kids. The kids love her, and miss her often, but generally feel as connected to her in their own ways as they do to me. Yes, I'd like a break more often, but that is not meant to reflect poorly on her parenting.

 

I also have explained often that the division of labor is not the issue. Again, I would love to get more time away from the kids, but what parent doesn't now & then? I have no issue with how much housework each of us does.

 

What it really comes down to is she feels 100% justified in dictating how many hours a week she works, with very little regard for the added pressures it puts on me, and the separation it's caused us, AND the lack of time we have to bond & just be a couple.

 

I'll continue to clarify this issue as needed, since it's got lots of twists & turns, but I feel like people often read a comment & then add what they assume to be the "corroborating evidence", even if none of that was ever said.

[NickFeek]

[/b]

 

 

BIG problem!!!! BIG!

 

you seeing HER perspective = you WILL lose track of YOU!

 

you get YOU healthy - then OFFER healthy you to others - including her!

 

 

to watch her be completely out of balance - then spending time and energy trying to connect with her (knowing she is out of balance) is just reinforcing what you already know... that she wants you to bend... bend to the place where SHE is at... and give HER kudos for a moment of decency.

 

the question remains... does she intend to work a LOT? does she EVEN WANT TO be home/spend time with her hubby and family? because IF she really doesn't want to - and YOU are making her DO this - it will never look happy! no matter how much positive reinforcement you give her!

 

We are getting to the place where she will need to decide what she wants her work life to look like in relation to everything else. I love & respect her enough to understand that it's embedded deeply in her, and that her control issues are monumental, so this will take time.

 

I also could not disagree more that seeing another person's perspective is a bad idea. If you are strong & healthy & secure enough in your sense of self, then there should be no danger there. In fact, I can't see another way to truly understand a person and/or how to really connect with that person unless you are trying to EMPATHIZE. Yes, I may have a propensity to slide down that slippery slope into forgetting my needs, but I'm aware of it & am strong & lucid enough to snap out of it. Not to mention our counselor is very adept at seeing this happen, and always makes sure to redirect so that balance is restored.

[NickFeek]

i honestly think YOU confuse yourself with all the justifying Nick.

 

you give plenty of evidence of what doesn't work for you and the kids... then when OTHERS point out how out of balance it is - you completely defend her! which is it?

 

you give hard evidence that she works too much - then you give evidence that she's a good Mom. sometimes i think you don't know what you think.

 

it can't possibly be both - with all of what you've given here...

 

Actually it IS both. She is a good mom no question. My dispute with her & her work hours has to do with our MARRIAGE, not with the family. Most of the free time she's had she gives away to the kids or the household, and so naturally the marriage suffers. I don't see why this combination of facts is so hard for people to understand.

[NickFeek]

intimacy - seems to be what is missing... if you are finding it at 230am... then that is better than none... but it may be useful to make a date with her - and hire a babysitter once a week - instead of chatting in the middle of the night.

 

make time away from the chaos of home/work life for each other... even by taking a night time walk several evenings each week. hire a college student to come by for an hour or so - that way you two can get time to BE together without all the chaos and distractions.

 

1000% true, and something we're already doing - more date nights, more chats. And as our littlest one gets older, our daughter will be able to babysit him at will, so we can be more impromptu with things like dinners out & walks & all that.

[soserious1]

I won't get involved in the tiff here, but I do need to continue to clarify.

 

I have never said she's a bad parent. In fact I've said many times throughout this thread that there's no one else I'd rather be a parent to my kids. The kids love her, and miss her often, but generally feel as connected to her in their own ways as they do to me. Yes, I'd like a break more often, but that is not meant to reflect poorly on her parenting.

 

I also have explained often that the division of labor is not the issue. Again, I would love to get more time away from the kids, but what parent doesn't now & then? I have no issue with how much housework each of us does.

 

What it really comes down to is she feels 100% justified in dictating how many hours a week she works, with very little regard for the added pressures it puts on me, and the separation it's caused us, AND the lack of time we have to bond & just be a couple.

 

I'll continue to clarify this issue as needed, since it's got lots of twists & turns, but I feel like people often read a comment & then add what they assume to be the "corroborating evidence", even if none of that was ever said.

 

look Nick, I reared children, when you say (more than once) that this woman

stays at work till 10pm or later at least 4 nights per week and has done so for the past several years,I'm not sure what conclusions you want people to draw.When we stick up for your POV you come back at us bristling telling us what a great mother she is, otho when we stick up for your wife's POV you bristle too.

 

I'm sorry if I've yet again offended you but you have stated that your wife has a pattern of staying at work till 10pm (or later) several nights per week. I'm basing my responses on info you have given us and in my direct experience of rearing children. I'm not sure at this point what sorts of responses you want from us but it would appear you're searching for toasted

ice here, not something any of us can give you

[2sunny]

We are getting to the place where she will need to decide what she wants her work life to look like in relation to everything else. I love & respect her enough to understand that it's embedded deeply in her, and that her control issues are monumental, so this will take time.

 

 

 

Actually it IS both. She is a good mom no question. My dispute with her & her work hours has to do with our MARRIAGE, not with the family. Most of the free time she's had she gives away to the kids or the household, and so naturally the marriage suffers. I don't see why this combination of facts is so hard for people to understand.

 

 

what, exactly does SHE intend to DO differently to restore the intimacy level within your marriage? what change IS she willing to do?

 

you are also saying she is a good Mom - i find that hard to believe when she isn't home often enough to be THAT good Mom you are describing. does she make herself available to them while she's working? does she take there calls when they have concerns?

[NickFeek]

look Nick, I reared children, when you say (more than once) that this woman

stays at work till 10pm or later at least 4 nights per week and has done so for the past several years,I'm not sure what conclusions you want people to draw.When we stick up for your POV you come back at us bristling telling us what a great mother she is, otho when we stick up for your wife's POV you bristle too.

 

I'm sorry if I've yet again offended you but you have stated that your wife has a pattern of staying at work till 10pm (or later) several nights per week. I'm basing my responses on info you have given us and in my direct experience of rearing children. I'm not sure at this point what sorts of responses you want from us but it would appear you're searching for toasted

ice here, not something any of us can give you

 

Since I started this thread, I have answered all questions & laid out the facts as truthfully as I know how. I have also made sure to agree or confirm when something meshes with what my actual situation is, and disagree or refute when it doesn't.

 

All I'm saying here is that you are taking facts I HAVE stated, extrapolating an opinion, and then adding other "facts" that I have not stated. I'm not bristling, nor am I offended. I just don't think it's helpful to add more negatives to an already fairly negative picture. I can UNDERSTAND why someone would come to that conclusion, but I would hope that when I explain clearly enough why it's inaccurate that that same someone will take my word for it.

 

No question both she and I wish she could be home more with the kids. But just as it's possible for two conflicting thoughts to coexist, I'm telling everyone here that her parenting is not at issue - otherwise I would have joined a parenting forum. She does come home later than we'd both like, and I do think her work stress bleeds over into her home life in more ways than one. But when she is with the kids - especially the younger ones - she is engaged & caring & all the things a good parent should be.

[NickFeek]

what, exactly does SHE intend to DO differently to restore the intimacy level within your marriage? what change IS she willing to do?

 

you are also saying she is a good Mom - i find that hard to believe when she isn't home often enough to be THAT good Mom you are describing. does she make herself available to them while she's working? does she take there calls when they have concerns?

 

This is why & when I think it's constructive to think of us as a team. When she "pitches in" as an equal team member, our life is better. No, I can't make her do things, but if she considers me a teammate and not an adversary, she'll be more likely to do those things. She has sought out more quality time with me, which is a good thing. She has talked to me more during work hours. She has responded more to me. Still not as much as I'd like or as I think we need, but an improvement.

 

See previous post regarding her parenting.

[soserious1]

Since I started this thread, I have answered all questions & laid out the facts as truthfully as I know how. I have also made sure to agree or confirm when something meshes with what my actual situation is, and disagree or refute when it doesn't.

 

All I'm saying here is that you are taking facts I HAVE stated, extrapolating an opinion, and then adding other "facts" that I have not stated. I'm not bristling, nor am I offended. I just don't think it's helpful to add more negatives to an already fairly negative picture. I can UNDERSTAND why someone would come to that conclusion, but I would hope that when I explain clearly enough why it's inaccurate that that same someone will take my word for it.

 

No question both she and I wish she could be home more with the kids. But just as it's possible for two conflicting thoughts to coexist, I'm telling everyone here that her parenting is not at issue - otherwise I would have joined a parenting forum. She does come home later than we'd both like, and I do think her work stress bleeds over into her home life in more ways than one. But when she is with the kids - especially the younger ones - she is engaged & caring & all the things a good parent should be.

 

Nick, not sure if this is your intent but every time I attempt to offer my input

I walk away feeling like I've been told that I'm somehow a stupid moron who clearly doesn't know how to read.

 

FACT: You have posted more than once that your wife comes home at least 4 nites per week frequently past 10pm at nite no "extrapolating " needed, you've actually said these things, you have also stated that you have a 3 yr old & that your wife's schedule has been becoming increasingly brutal for several years.

 

I don't know what you want from people here, I've tried to be kind, to see your POV and even though I can heart the position your wife is in as the major breadwinner I've tried to not be totally biased in her favor. I seriously don't believe, based on info about her schedule that you've shared here that she's been home enough to care for a pet dog let alone nurture your marriage or her babies and that IMHO is a crying,screaming shame.

[NickFeek]

Nick, not sure if this is your intent but every time I attempt to offer my input

I walk away feeling like I've been told that I'm somehow a stupid moron who clearly doesn't know how to read.

 

FACT: You have posted more than once that your wife comes home at least 4 nites per week frequently past 10pm at nite no "extrapolating " needed, you've actually said these things, you have also stated that you have a 3 yr old & that your wife's schedule has been becoming increasingly brutal for several years.

 

I don't know what you want from people here, I've tried to be kind, to see your POV and even though I can heart the position your wife is in as the major breadwinner I've tried to not be totally biased in her favor. I seriously don't believe, based on info about her schedule that you've shared here that she's been home enough to care for a pet dog let alone nurture your marriage or her babies and that IMHO is a crying,screaming shame.

 

I'm really sorry it comes across that way. I just get the sense that you are over-interpreting what I'm saying. BUT I will say that in our worst weeks and at my lowest times since April, I have stated the case you described above very strongly, so it does stand to reason you'd interpret things that way. That is largely my fault. None of what I said is a lie, but let's just say we have good weeks/nights & bad weeks/nights, so the overall impression you and others are getting may be more negative than the reality. Again, I'm sorry.

[2sunny]

i see evidence of you being confused Nick.

 

if you are honoring yourself... there is never confusion. the head, heart and gut are all in balance - at peace (no matter what the circumstances around them). one is not tugging at the other when things are "right" - when i feel that tug - it's my indicator that something is "off". an indicator to make change happen.

 

you have had that tug for so long i think you're accustomed to accepting unacceptable behavior as YOUR "norm".

 

honor self... then offer healthy self to others... with a clear and firm boundary of what does or doesn't work for YOU. let her do what she does - what makes her happy - as long as she understands YOUR boundary. do not compromise on what happy looks like for YOU.

 

 

the water gets muddy when you bend what makes you happy - because it isn't in alignment with what she is willing to do/not do. this can cause more resentment.

 

step cautiously Nick... don't settle. you deserve happy - everybody does.

[NickFeek]

i see evidence of you being confused Nick.

 

if you are honoring yourself... there is never confusion. the head, heart and gut are all in balance - at peace (no matter what the circumstances around them). one is not tugging at the other when things are "right" - when i feel that tug - it's my indicator that something is "off". an indicator to make change happen.

 

you have had that tug for so long i think you're accustomed to accepting unacceptable behavior as YOUR "norm".

 

honor self... then offer healthy self to others... with a clear and firm boundary of what does or doesn't work for YOU. let her do what she does - what makes her happy - as long as she understands YOUR boundary. do not compromise on what happy looks like for YOU.

 

 

the water gets muddy when you bend what makes you happy - because it isn't in alignment with what she is willing to do/not do. this can cause more resentment.

 

step cautiously Nick... don't settle. you deserve happy - everybody does.

 

I'm sure I'm confused. I've been here before & I'll be here again. There's a push/pull that happens when two people are so closely trying to navigate deep waters together, and unless you're a 100% perfectly enlightened & disattached person, there are going to be times when you get lost in those waters, and have to work your way out. The important thing is not ALWAYS being in a state of perfect consciousness, but always finding a way out of the confusion & dark spots.

[trippi1432]

Nick - Not sure if you have this in your reading materials yet...but a good book for both of you to read might be Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. I say BOTH of you because one person cannot have boundaries while the other remains boundary-less. There is no balance in that.

 

People do tend to misunderstand boundaries......Boundaries are not selfish when implemented with caring, compassion and love for yourself as well as the people in your life. This is something that your counselor should be able to help you both with and understand a good way to set boundaries in your marriage in a healthy way...rather than one person controlling or ruling the roost on the other person to force change. Ask your counselor about it as there is also a workbook that you can both work in that may help generate some positive communication between the two of you on what you both want to change.

[NickFeek]

Nick - Not sure if you have this in your reading materials yet...but a good book for both of you to read might be Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. I say BOTH of you because one person cannot have boundaries while the other remains boundary-less. There is no balance in that.

 

People do tend to misunderstand boundaries......Boundaries are not selfish when implemented with caring, compassion and love for yourself as well as the people in your life. This is something that your counselor should be able to help you both with and understand a good way to set boundaries in your marriage in a healthy way...rather than one person controlling or ruling the roost on the other person to force change. Ask your counselor about it as there is also a workbook that you can both work in that may help generate some positive communication between the two of you on what you both want to change.

 

That's a great suggestion, and I'm going to look it up this week. Our counselor has already started to get into boundary issues, so you're just in time!

[2sunny]

Our counselor has already started to get into boundary issues, so you're just in time!

 

 

did you actually just say ALREADY getting into boundary issues? Nick, you two have been going for nearly two months.

 

man oh man - snails pace - you may be ninety before anything changes and you decide what a healthy boundary MIGHT look like.

 

DO things for change! you KNOW what you two have been doing isn't working - so start changes things!

[NickFeek]

did you actually just say ALREADY getting into boundary issues? Nick, you two have been going for nearly two months.

 

man oh man - snails pace - you may be ninety before anything changes and you decide what a healthy boundary MIGHT look like.

 

DO things for change! you KNOW what you two have been doing isn't working - so start changes things!

 

You know we don't see eye to eye on what a healthy pace/process is with the counselor. We are talking about 25 YEARS of crap to wade through. The fact that we have come this far in only 6-7 sessions is a miracle to me.

[Lexygirl]

You know we don't see eye to eye on what a healthy pace/process is with the counselor. We are talking about 25 YEARS of crap to wade through. The fact that we have come this far in only 6-7 sessions is a miracle to me.

 

I agree with you, Nick, and only you know if things are moving forward in a positive direction or not. I admire your patience.

[NickFeek]

I agree with you, Nick, and only you know if things are moving forward in a positive direction or not. I admire your patience.

 

Thanks, Lexy.

[2sunny]

You know we don't see eye to eye on what a healthy pace/process is with the counselor. We are talking about 25 YEARS of crap to wade through. The fact that we have come this far in only 6-7 sessions is a miracle to me.

 

so - yes, 25 years of crap - is what you call this.

 

once i know what the crap is - i don't ALLOW that crap anymore... cuz i know THAT crap doesn't work for me - so i stop DOING the crap i don't like - knowing it doesn't make me happy.

 

THAT alone is MY new boundary - when i EXPECT change = no longer being willing to DO what i know doesn't work for me.

 

i let go of ALL the things I know don't work! i DO NOT WADE THROUGH IT! i already have evidence it doesn't work! i start DOING anything i haven't done before - knowing it will bring about change. NEVER do i go back to any of my old behaviors - because i KNOW they don't work for me!

 

 

There's a push/pull that happens when two people are so closely trying to navigate deep waters together, and unless you're a 100% perfectly enlightened & disattached person, there are going to be times when you get lost in those waters, and have to work your way out.

 

you misread my words at times. i never said disattach - i said state to her you love her - then do your best - that includes taking care of YOURSELF... then KNOWING you are in a good place, you AFFECT others in a healthy way with every interaction and every word you speak. that includes loving yourself = then offering your healthy self to others. there is nothing "detached" about the way i approach life... except to allow others their own room for what happy looks like for them.

 

 

it's a difficult concept to relay to you by typing...