25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

Well Nick....these two posts were definitely better than the previous posts that typically ended with "if she can't give me what I want, I will find it elsewhere or may have to end it.". I know I haven't posted to your thread in a while, but contrary to what you think, I've followed the whole thing and posted many times. When you come here and say those things to us...you leave this forum carrying that mental energy. Even your daughter felt the negative energy between the two of you and knew something was up....kids are very intuitive. Negative energy is just that...it's a look, a sigh, a way of saying "Here we go again" when the discussions happen, in counseling and at home. I'm not saying that's all you, it's both.

 

I'm assuming by your post that the affair is being discussed, but like you said, she won't discuss the sex issue, apparently you have but not in the same session with her? Clarification please.

 

Thanks Trippi. And especially thanks for keeping up with this. I can barely keep up with it myself!

 

I agree the negative energy has been a big issue. It's not possible to eradicate it completely under these circumstances, but we're doing better overall.

 

I had a solo session with the doctor because my wife had a deadline at work she couldn't forgo. To her credit she felt bad about missing, and it's the only time she has missed a session. I think I actually needed the solo session anyway. I was careful not to breach the agreement I made with my wife about discussing sexual details in any form. What I did mention to the doctor was the fact that right before our very first session, my wife grabbed my arm and said, "If you make this all about sex I will leave right now." We have only brushed on the subject since then. Frankly, you all know more about it BY FAR than the doctor does.

[2sunny]

And how does your wife expect things to change in the bedroom if she's unwilling to be honest with the doctor?

 

There is power in secrecy - it helps keep things the same. Why is it so bad to ask for ideas that MAY bring you two happiness together? Does she EXPECT things to change and get better - how?

 

Does she want to get happy with you = how can you two get there?

 

What will she (and you TWO) change - in order to see what may bring happiness to your bedroom in order to check if anything CAN get better?

 

Ask her!

[NickFeek]

And how does your wife expect things to change in the bedroom if she's unwilling to be honest with the doctor?

 

There is power in secrecy - it helps keep things the same. Why is it so bad to ask for ideas that MAY bring you two happiness together? Does she EXPECT things to change and get better - how?

 

Does she want to get happy with you = how can you two get there?

 

What will she (and you TWO) change - in order to see what may bring happiness to your bedroom in order to check if anything CAN get better?

 

Ask her!

 

I ask her & myself the same questions over & over. This goes way back to our teens really. I can never get a straight answer. She has always said she loves me & wants to be closer & more open, but will find a multitude of excuses as to why she doesn't go there. Some are legit - like her fear, some of my worst behavior, etc. Some cut so deep that it would take months or years of therapy to untangle them. I can't claim to always have been the best partner or guide in working through this stuff, but I have been patient & have very often worked extra hard to elicit things from her.

 

What troubles me is that after all this time I still can't tell if she loves me & respects me enough to go there. I guess you'd say all evidence so far points to she's NOT. But in current circumstances, and knowing how I've botched things here & there, I'm still - despite all evidence - willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

 

I see our therapy & this period of life as a whole as our last ditch effort. We work it out & get it right or say goodbye, to quote a great song.

[trippi1432]

Thanks Trippi. And especially thanks for keeping up with this. I can barely keep up with it myself!

 

I agree the negative energy has been a big issue. It's not possible to eradicate it completely under these circumstances, but we're doing better overall.

 

I had a solo session with the doctor because my wife had a deadline at work she couldn't forgo. To her credit she felt bad about missing, and it's the only time she has missed a session. I think I actually needed the solo session anyway. I was careful not to breach the agreement I made with my wife about discussing sexual details in any form. What I did mention to the doctor was the fact that right before our very first session, my wife grabbed my arm and said, "If you make this all about sex I will leave right now." We have only brushed on the subject since then. Frankly, you all know more about it BY FAR than the doctor does.

 

Okay, let's go with this part then...she stated she would leave if you made it all about sex....which is why this forum denotes your obsession with it. By your declaration you have no other issues with finding happiness in your life other than this one thing.

 

What has she emphatically told the counselor are the issues in the marriage since the sex has not been discussed. What has SHE stated in the session were the issues that led you to cheat since the counselor has no idea about the sex life or lack thereof. Not what you feel she is thinking....feeling...etc. what has she actually stated?

[2sunny]

And this is why I suggested you ask what - exactly - her intentions are... And if she intends for things to change what is her exact plan to get to THAT changed place.

 

Her intent - and her plan... That is what would be helpful to understand!

 

 

Let's equate it to taking a road trip... If you have a destination planned - you need to map out the directions to get there - what is on HER map? How does she plan to accomplish getting there if she's not willing to ask for directions?

[trippi1432]

Exactly, 2Sunny...this I agree with. This whole thing is a power struggle...a wife who has been cheated on, may have already had some deep seated anger by not addressing past issues in the marriage, now the affair gives her validation to be angry.

 

Nick's side, wants to prove that he will not do this again, she puts in the right boundaries to stop the affair but isn't moving forward to sustain the appropriate avenues to put it all on the table. There was another couple here who had a similar issue....they finally moved back in together, but it was a very long brow-beating power struggle to get thru all of the years of issues. Nothing moves forward until there is forgiveness.

[NickFeek]

Okay, let's go with this part then...she stated she would leave if you made it all about sex....which is why this forum denotes your obsession with it. By your declaration you have no other issues with finding happiness in your life other than this one thing.

 

What has she emphatically told the counselor are the issues in the marriage since the sex has not been discussed. What has SHE stated in the session were the issues that led you to cheat since the counselor has no idea about the sex life or lack thereof. Not what you feel she is thinking....feeling...etc. what has she actually stated?

 

Good point. Although it's more shaded & complex, I think it's fair to say my biggest issue by far is the sex. So I'll go with that.

 

Excellent approach! Okay, to the first part, the issues she's mentioned (aside from the cheating) have been: my disrespect & misunderstanding of her workload & hours & stress; my mistaken belief that she is pitting work against me; my taking her for granted in the many ways she's supported me & the kids; my getting defensive when she tries to express negative feelings; her inability to trust that I will care for & protect her; our differing schedules & sleep cycles; my tendency to make executive decisions without talking things through. I'm sure there were several more.

 

As for the cheating, she is still trying to wrap her head around why I did it. Her main belief as she's stated is that I was lashing out in anger over feeling neglected. She has also expressed passing concern (not in therapy) about sexual comparisons. That's about it.

 

It would take too long for me to answer every point here. Let's just say I or we have addressed everything in the first list to some degree, and are making really good progress. The second list is such a road block that even the doctor would like to set it aside for the time being.

[NickFeek]

And this is why I suggested you ask what - exactly - her intentions are... And if she intends for things to change what is her exact plan to get to THAT changed place.

 

Her intent - and her plan... That is what would be helpful to understand!

 

 

Let's equate it to taking a road trip... If you have a destination planned - you need to map out the directions to get there - what is on HER map? How does she plan to accomplish getting there if she's not willing to ask for directions?

 

I like the road trip analogy. In fact a day or two ago I was thinking of comparing the sex-talk ban to a car trip you take with only half of the directions printed out.

 

At this point, in her words, her plan is to just get through this period, let time pass, and hope that THAT will take away the deep hurt she fears she can never get over. She is in many ways as stuck on my cheating as she was a year ago. Been a year now since she's known.

[NickFeek]

Exactly, 2Sunny...this I agree with. This whole thing is a power struggle...a wife who has been cheated on, may have already had some deep seated anger by not addressing past issues in the marriage, now the affair gives her validation to be angry.

 

Nick's side, wants to prove that he will not do this again, she puts in the right boundaries to stop the affair but isn't moving forward to sustain the appropriate avenues to put it all on the table. There was another couple here who had a similar issue....they finally moved back in together, but it was a very long brow-beating power struggle to get thru all of the years of issues. Nothing moves forward until there is forgiveness.

 

I agree with this assessment. That first paragraph is what the doctor really wants to hear about: what past hurts/issues/angers are fueling her very valid but all-too-consuming anger over my cheating? No way to untangle her hurt & other feelings until she can articulate this. I want to hear. I want to know.

 

I do know it took me a lot of bad behavior, an affair, and a long & painful & ongoing recovery process to forgive her for her past slights & neglects, and I'm not sure I'm 100% there. I can also say with absolute certainty that she has not forgiven me for ANY of my recent behavior. Has not gotten over it even a bit. I'm trying hard to stabilize us, to show her I can be trusted etc., but she is only about 25% receptive to anything I do or say.

[2sunny]

So - are you stating that she chooses to ignore reality hoping the negative feelings will magically disappear if she doesn't acknowledge them, need to understand them or work through them?

 

Are you saying her pattern is to avoid so it's not real in her mind?

[NickFeek]

So - are you stating that she chooses to ignore reality hoping the negative feelings will magically disappear if she doesn't acknowledge them, need to understand them or work through them?

 

Are you saying her pattern is to avoid spits not real inher mind?

 

I would say her first choice would be that, yes. She's tried it before. I have been complicit in this over & over, yet have always hit a breaking point at which I was compelled to address the feelings. To her credit she often addressed them with me, and that's what has kept us going. Unfortunately this never included sex to any degree, and still doesn't. She did devise a great plan of action for a weekly sex life back in July, but we never implemented it in the slightest, and that's largely because she's still struggling to decide whether or not she likes me as a person & can still live with me. So since this issue is the biggest, scariest, most painful & most affecting one in our marriage, I really do see it as do or die, or worst case continue to muddle along in a compromised existence.

[2sunny]

I would say her first choice would be that, yes. She's tried it before. I have been complicit in this over & over, yet have always hit a breaking point at which I was compelled to address the feelings. To her credit she often addressed them with me, and that's what has kept us going. Unfortunately this never included sex to any degree, and still doesn't. She did devise a great plan of action for a weekly sex life back in July, but we never implemented it in the slightest, and that's largely because she's still struggling to decide whether or not she likes me as a person & can still live with me. So since this issue is the biggest, scariest, most painful & most affecting one in our marriage, I really do see it as do or die, or worst case continue to muddle along in a compromised existence.

 

I didn't know she had devised a weekly schedule or plan back in July...

 

Wow - THAT would be awesome, and change too!!! Anything to change it up!

 

I am speechless that you state that you are waiting for her to decide whether or not she likes you as a person - is that the real issue? The roadblock here?

 

If - after 25+ years I was wondering and waiting for a decision whether or not my life partner liked me - well... I can't even imagine being a position to stay one minute if they even wondered. I don't even extend that luxury of limitless time to friends. IF someone likes me - they act like it and tell me often how important I am in their life - their actions and words show me.

 

I can't believe she holds power like that - in such a negative energy path.

 

And why does a guy hang around a gal for 25 years if her knows she questions even liking him?

[NickFeek]

I didn't know she had devised a weekly schedule or plan back in July...

 

Wow - THAT would be awesome, and change too!!! Anything to change it up!

 

I am speechless that you state that you are waiting for her to decide whether or not she likes you as a person - is that the real issue? The roadblock here?

 

If - after 25+ years I was wondering and waiting for a decision whether or not my life partner liked me - well... I can't even imagine being a position to stay one minute if they even wondered. I don't even extend that luxury of limitless time to friends. IF someone likes me - they act like it and tell me often how important I am in their life - their actions and words show me.

 

I can't believe she holds power like that - in such a negative energy path.

 

And why does a guy hang around a gal for 25 years if her knows she questions even liking him?

 

Yes, we both wrote down plans of action for three or four of the major issues in our marriage. We've followed the work plan more than any other. The others not really much at all. But the sex one was her initiative, and I felt great about it at the time. Think I need to revisit that with her.

 

She says she's not sure she can respect me anymore, and she's not sure she would want to be with someone who did what I did - cheating & lying. Valid concerns, and other than do my best to make up for my actions & reestablish trust, I can't do much else. It's her decision. If it were based on nothing but good behavior let's say, then I'd be gone already. But because I absolutely did hurt her & breach her trust and break our vows, I think she deserves to figure it out, and I'm willing to try for now & hope that she realizes I have ALWAYS been much more than my mistakes.

 

I wouldn't say she's questioned liking me all these years, just this last year. But I WILL SAY, as we mentioned before, that my infidelity has given her a chance to vent ALL of the resentments she's held since way back, and I'm starting to see there are things about me she's never wanted to accept. I would say the same thing about myself as regards her, so this current process is us getting to know each other in full and for real, with no gloss or shying away.

[trippi1432]

2Sunny - I believe Nick is referring to her feelings since the affair....this is something she has said since she found out about it. Certainly, as someone who had to go through the emotions of your own husbands infidelity, you should be able to understand her side on that.....

[NickFeek]

2Sunny - I believe Nick is referring to her feelings since the affair....this is something she has said since she found out about it. Certainly, as someone who had to go through the emotions of your own husbands infidelity, you should be able to understand her side on that.....

 

That's correct.

[thatone]

how did you manage to stay married for 25 years without talking about these things? that seems like misery defined to me. hell, i broke up with my last gf after a few months and the last argument was about her not talking to me, and i started it. i can't fathom making it for 25 years in such a situation.

[NickFeek]

how did you manage to stay married for 25 years without talking about these things? that seems like misery defined to me. hell, i broke up with my last gf after a few months and the last argument was about her not talking to me, and i started it. i can't fathom making it for 25 years in such a situation.

 

It's amazing how much time can go by, how other little (and big) things can satisfy you for a time, just enough for you not to push the big elephant out of the room. We DID talk about it many times. We just never opened it up enough to really SOLVE it. I take lots of the blame for first not knowing myself and then not being bold enough to articulate what I really wanted/needed. But my wife is a tough nut to crack - I'd be curious to see if someone else could make more headway.

[2sunny]

2Sunny - I believe Nick is referring to her feelings since the affair....this is something she has said since she found out about it. Certainly, as someone who had to go through the emotions of your own husbands infidelity, you should be able to understand her side on that.....

 

Yes, when he cheated at the 10 year mark - we did counseling - in order for me to forgive ( which was my intention) and to re establish trust. I DID forgive...completely. I had one rule that I made well known -IF I ever found him doing it again = it was over (without any discussion). And THAT is how/why it ended at the 20 year mark. Mind you, we had amazing sex at least once every day... Even after 23 years together.

 

He shows tendencies toward narcissism and being a sociopath. I was raised that you don't get divorced so I intended to be M forever!

 

But when he cheated the first time - my INTENT was to forgive and move forward.

 

He wasn't sorry he cheated- only sorry he got caught. Still expressed a need to be maried to me. I don't engage - but I wish him well.

 

I DO understand her position... But I DONT understand holding on to the negative energy and holding it as a source of a power play for guilt and shame - as that isn't productive if one intends to move past the pain.

 

IF she doesn't INTEND to let go of that negative energy she holds onto - she should at least be honest with Nick and tell him she intends to punish him forever. It's not a useful way to be happy.

[knitwit]

Hi Nick!

 

Glad to see you and your wife are still working on it, that neither have given up despite the difficulties.

 

I have a question. Are you still working with the OW? If so, this might be part of what is keeping your wife in the affair pain and unable to get past her anger/move on.

 

It is worrisome that she is still stuck without having made a decision if she wants to really try with you, if I am reading this right. How much of a chance do you think there is that she might decide to walk away?

[NickFeek]

I DO understand her position... But I DONT understand holding on to the negative energy and holding it as a source of a power play for guilt and shame - as that isn't productive if one intends to move past the pain.

 

IF she doesn't INTEND to let go of that negative energy she holds onto - she should at least be honest with Nick and tell him she intends to punish him forever. It's not a useful way to be happy.

 

I don't understand it either. I'm not sure it's a deliberate power play, but more of an emotional compulsion to hold onto what feels safe to her. I don't agree with it, and I think it hurts her as much as me, if not more. I have only one hope - and not a very sunny one - and that is she finally hits bottom & breaks down so much that the only place for her to go is up.

 

It is 12:20am. I woke her up as she requested, part of our plan to grab whatever alone time we can together. She proceeded to do laundry, complain about her life, and got into bed with our son, leaving me alone on the couch. I confronted her - told her this behavior is outrageous (among other things), that considering all that we're going through, THIS is her response to me reaching out? The emails she ignores - I tell her I miss her & want to talk to her, she doesn't respond during a 10 hour day. EVERYTHING is more important than us.

 

So I told her, if she needs to do something then just do it (meaning leave me), because I'm not living like this anymore. And when she's ready to talk to me she can come get me. Her answer? She's in the bed and I'm on the couch typing this. Loud and clear. AND I would say her non-verbal response to most of what I said is proof that she realizes her behavior is outrageous.

[NickFeek]

Hi Nick!

 

Glad to see you and your wife are still working on it, that neither have given up despite the difficulties.

 

I have a question. Are you still working with the OW? If so, this might be part of what is keeping your wife in the affair pain and unable to get past her anger/move on.

 

It is worrisome that she is still stuck without having made a decision if she wants to really try with you, if I am reading this right. How much of a chance do you think there is that she might decide to walk away?

 

Hey. Good to hear from you again. I wish I could report things are more positive, but this has not been a good stretch of weeks.

 

The OW was part of a small group of us who started up a business, which is at a very crucial stage - on the cusp of breaking to the next level so to speak. There are things each of us does that are too integral to its success, and lots of people are counting on us to come through. Having said that, I only see her at select business functions among large groups of people (exactly three in the last year). Most of the business we do can be done online or paired off in smaller groups (i.e. not her & me). So no, I have not 100% broken off contact, but I see her about 90-95% less than I did a year ago. It's about as low as I can go & still do my job.

 

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that even this small exposure to her is a thorn in my wife's side. She's said as much, has even said that my continued involvement in the company in any form (even away from the OW) is a painful reminder of all that happened. But she also knows that things would be worse if I were to leave. She knows & respects me well enough to know that this compromise is the best we can do now. And I am thankful for that. I do everything I can to keep my business out of our house & relationship, and I am home & available for her (and the kids of course) more now than in most of the past ten years.

 

It's not a perfect situation, but I'm trying. She is too, sometimes. Other times - like tonight & this past week or so, she checks out so intensely that I'm sure she's gone for good.

 

I may be at the point where the torture of leaving is not as great as the torture of staying.

[2sunny]

I can't imagine why she doesn't consider your feelings like you do her feelings. It's completely out of balance the way you worry about her feelings 24/7 and she doesn't consider you - even when you beg for her and go out of your way to have time with her.

 

The wedge she keeps between you two is very purposeful... I think it is her way of making sure she holds power over you... And she concentrates on growing negative energy bigger - even to the point of pitying herself.

 

If she hates the life she's living - why wouldn't she get willing to change?

[NickFeek]

I can't imagine why she doesn't consider your feelings like you do her feelings. It's completely out of balance the way you worry about her feelings 24/7 and she doesn't consider you - even when you beg for her and go out of your way to have time with her.

 

The wedge she keeps between you two is very purposeful... I think it is her way of making sure she holds power over you... And she concentrates on growing negative energy bigger - even to the point of pitying herself.

 

If she hates the life she's living - why wouldn't she get willing to change?

 

Well as of last night she said she's leaving me, so this may all be beside the point.

[2sunny]

So she chooses to leave rather than grow and change...

 

Well - now we can understand why. Her effort and action to change was showing a ton of resistance - so it makes more sense that she chooses to live in her own fear rather than grow through and past that fear.

 

Did she give you any information when she said she's leaving?

 

I'm real sorry Nick, I know you wanted to be hopeful she could get past her pain.

 

Big hugs

[2sunny]

Makes me think she didn't intend to change - her ACTIONS surely weren't showing a gal desperate to participate and make the M a happy place.

 

She's consistent - ill give her that - push you away with disregard - by working too much, being too busy and avoiding the issues... Then blaming you.

 

Her resentments define her core being - that's why she seems so sad about life - yet she won't let go of them, in fact she holds on tighter to define herself further by more resentments.

 

I bet she's resenting your suggestion of counseling too - so much that she won't tell you - but is angry she has to go and participate.

 

Can you find a way to be happy today Nick? Even 5 minutes of happiness... I hope you won't lose track of getting to a happier place for yourself.