25 Years Together - Is it time to end it?

[NickFeek]

2sunny,

 

I believe I started this thread on Thursday, right? So that's just over three days. I'm barely able to process what's going on in my actual life, let alone all the varying and often great advice/feedback I'm getting here, and you expect change to come from that so quickly? I'd guess that lasting change in the midst of a years-long crisis IS slow. I see both stasis AND progress. Guess I'm more patient & realistic than you'd like me to be, but the kind of change I'm looking for won't happen from three days of posts or even six months of pain.

 

I can't agree at all about me losing my authentic self. That's an overstatement. I'm am very aware of what's wrong here. The one thing in that paragraph you said that resonates with me is trying to act as if we don't speak. I have tried often in the last six months to leave her to herself, and not to email or call her. But for some reason I can only go so long before I need to make contact. And of course in some cases it's actual necessity, because we DO have kids, and need to communicate about schedules, babysitters, etc. All of what you're saying is important & valid, but it's easier said than done according to your timeline. I have a timeline I'm comfortable with, while still acknowledging that things are so bad they can't continue like this. That's what should matter.

 

I'll accept your hypothesis at the end that she is never going to change. If, even during the worst period in our lives - NOW - she is unwilling to change, then I agree that she is never going to. Then the future for me is separation and divorce. In the mean time, I'll give her one more period of the benefit of the doubt.

[2sunny]

view the link NF - the resources given are only helpful if you view them.

 

 

i still think the tears are her own guilt because she knows she doesn't intend to change. she's just bummed you are noticing. either that or she is cheating with another man... check her cell phone, work email etc... IF she's honest there is no reason she can't offer you her truth as well... in order to gain some common ground of respect.

[NickFeek]

SHE hasn't been held accountable for HER part in the cheating. i'll tell you this: IF you ignore a man long enough - he will eventually find someone who will pay attention to him. if an extended amount of time goes by for a man without love and affection... he is starved and will go looking for attention and affection. what did she expect? ignore hubby and be absent - and he should starve with affection until i find 5 minutes in my busy schedule to look his way... it's not good enough - and it shouldn't be good enough for you. she's delusional to think this would be even half adequate for any man.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE she has not been held accountable. But by my cheating I've delayed that process. It WILL happen and she WILL need to own up to her part in this for us to move on, but I have to give her some time to find her footing again, for both her AND the kids.

for probably the first time since i've been here on LS, i don't totally blame you for cheating. she deserved it. she wasn't being your wife... what did she expect?

 

you are responsible for your actions- but she is also responsible for ignoring you by not participating as your wife. now that she knows this - she still isn't making an effort for you by changing. YOU SHOULD BE DAMN MAD!

I am damn mad. Have been for way too long. I still can't defend my cheating, but I appreciate that someone sees something like this comes from somewhere. I just still have to own my mistake.

since she LOVES her work that much - enough to sacrifice the best interest of staying connected and participating in a loving way with the family - she should leave. she should be willing to give you to another woman who would love and appreciate your kindness. instead she's stomping on it and taking advantage of your gentle and generous nature... that's not loving behavior.

It feels good to hear someone say I'm gentle & generous. I'm not always, but I feel like overall I really am. Still doesn't excuse what I did, but neither does it excuse what she did. I'm taking a risk saying this, but I think part of the reason she's so hurt and mad is because she realizes that I called her on her behavior. I again still can't feel good about the cheating or the aftereffects, but if the good that comes of this mess is that she can see what was missing the way I see it (for both of us), then so be it.

[NickFeek]

view the link NF - the resources given are only helpful if you view them.

I will check it again, definitely.

 

i still think the tears are her own guilt because she knows she doesn't intend to change. she's just bummed you are noticing.

I sort of said something like this in the post I just made.

 

either that or she is cheating with another man... check her cell phone, work email etc... IF she's honest there is no reason she can't offer you her truth as well... in order to gain some common ground of respect.

I have access to all of that already, and I can tell you she's not cheating. I believe her about her overwork. Don't like it but believe it completely. She'd barely have time to say hi to a friend, let alone have an affair.

[2sunny]

i don't see anything i can offer for help further than this.

 

get into action. not one day should go by without experiencing change. without it there is NO hope.

 

best wishes for change NF - hugs

[dreamingoftigers]

NF, I haven't had a chance to comb back over everything. Just one thing dude: Quote function

 

It is down in the bottom right-hand corner of each post.

 

It would really help make the posts a little more readable.

 

Took me awhile to find it too.

[trippi1432]

Wow...this thread seems to get more and more vicious towards the spouse who was cheated on and even more protective of the unfaithful spouse. I think a lot of that has to do with the emotional aspect of the situation creating a lot of empathy for the person who cheated. Two wrongs doesn't mean that one person is right....and if both are wrong, it doesn't have to equate to anger and the end to a marriage if both are trying to work through it. I think you are doing the right thing Nick by being resistant to following emotionally charged leave her now talk and working on that timeline. Kudos.

 

Nick - how much of what you post here about your marriage, your wife, the issues are you actually discussing with her? What have been the actions of both you and your wife of late? How has the dynamic in the marriage changed...positive changes...you already know that the negatives are due to the shock and disappointment.

[NickFeek]

i don't see anything i can offer for help further than this.

 

get into action. not one day should go by without experiencing change. without it there is NO hope.

 

best wishes for change NF - hugs

 

Thanks, 2sunny. You've been a big help - given me a lot to consider.

[NickFeek]

NF, I haven't had a chance to comb back over everything. Just one thing dude: Quote function

 

It is down in the bottom right-hand corner of each post.

 

It would really help make the posts a little more readable.

 

Took me awhile to find it too.

 

Ah, there it is! Thanks for the tip.

[NickFeek]

Wow...this thread seems to get more and more vicious towards the spouse who was cheated on and even more protective of the unfaithful spouse. I think a lot of that has to do with the emotional aspect of the situation creating a lot of empathy for the person who cheated. Two wrongs doesn't mean that one person is right....and if both are wrong, it doesn't have to equate to anger and the end to a marriage if both are trying to work through it. I think you are doing the right thing Nick by being resistant to following emotionally charged leave her now talk and working on that timeline. Kudos.

 

Nick - how much of what you post here about your marriage, your wife, the issues are you actually discussing with her? What have been the actions of both you and your wife of late? How has the dynamic in the marriage changed...positive changes...you already know that the negatives are due to the shock and disappointment.

 

Thanks, trippi. It hurts enough already that I've done what I've done, and that I have made our addressing of our ongoing issues that much harder. I couldn't live at peace with my actions if I didn't at least try my damnedest to make this work, even in the face of her recalcitrance.

 

We have not talked as much as I'd like, but I have brought up much of what I posted here either recently or before that. Some things I still think she's not in a frame of mind to hear yet, but we're getting there. The only significant action, sadly, is that she's still in the same state this morning as she was last night - usually she bounces back but has not. She is not talking to me at all. Once again, I hope that will be very temporary, but it's typical of where she goes emotionally when she's in really bad shape.

[soserious1]

SHE hasn't been held accountable for HER part in the cheating. i'll tell you this: IF you ignore a man long enough - he will eventually find someone who will pay attention to him. if an extended amount of time goes by for a man without love and affection... he is starved and will go looking for attention and affection. what did she expect? ignore hubby and be absent - and he should starve with affection until i find 5 minutes in my busy schedule to look his way... it's not good enough - and it shouldn't be good enough for you. she's delusional to think this would be even half adequate for any man.

 

for probably the first time since i've been here on LS, i don't totally blame you for cheating. she deserved it. she wasn't being your wife... what did she expect?

 

you are responsible for your actions- but she is also responsible for ignoring you by not participating as your wife. now that she knows this - she still isn't making an effort for you by changing. YOU SHOULD BE DAMN MAD!

 

since she LOVES her work that much - enough to sacrifice the best interest of staying connected and participating in a loving way with the family - she should leave. she should be willing to give you to another woman who would love and appreciate your kindness. instead she's stomping on it and taking advantage of your gentle and generous nature... that's not loving behavior.

 

 

Personally I think OP's wife does want out of the marriage, the tears happening here are probably because she never imagined herself in such a place and she is struggling to just finally tell the OP that the marriage is over.

[soserious1]

Thanks, trippi. It hurts enough already that I've done what I've done, and that I have made our addressing of our ongoing issues that much harder. I couldn't live at peace with my actions if I didn't at least try my damnedest to make this work, even in the face of her recalcitrance.

 

We have not talked as much as I'd like, but I have brought up much of what I posted here either recently or before that. Some things I still think she's not in a frame of mind to hear yet, but we're getting there. The only significant action, sadly, is that she's still in the same state this morning as she was last night - usually she bounces back but has not. She is not talking to me at all. Once again, I hope that will be very temporary, but it's typical of where she goes emotionally when she's in really bad shape.

 

Nick, why don't you just sit her down and ask her quietly if she wants a divorce?

[NickFeek]

soserious, both of your comments hit home with me. I think the reality is finally hitting her hard. As of this morning, she said she wants to be left alone because her heart is completely broken. I think the tears are from that - and that to be very literal, her heart is broken exactly in two: One side can't imagine her life without me, her childhood love & lifelong companion. The other side is so crushed by both my infidelity & the creeping reality of what she & we would have to do to make this right that she is just done with it all.

 

I want to give her this day or two for last night's breakdown to sink in, also because she has a badly infected tooth & is going for a root canal tomorrow late. Once she's in a better place, I do think that the discussion needs to be had. If not jumping right to divorce, then at the very least ask her if she wants a separation. I'm still going to suggest marriage counseling, but it's looking less likely she's open to that.

[soserious1]

soserious, both of your comments hit home with me. I think the reality is finally hitting her hard. As of this morning, she said she wants to be left alone because her heart is completely broken. I think the tears are from that - and that to be very literal, her heart is broken exactly in two: One side can't imagine her life without me, her childhood love & lifelong companion. The other side is so crushed by both my infidelity & the creeping reality of what she & we would have to do to make this right that she is just done with it all.

 

I want to give her this day or two for last night's breakdown to sink in, also because she has a badly infected tooth & is going for a root canal tomorrow late. Once she's in a better place, I do think that the discussion needs to be had. If not jumping right to divorce, then at the very least ask her if she wants a separation. I'm still going to suggest marriage counseling, but it's looking less likely she's open to that.

 

I certainly don't wish a divorce upon you and I'm sorry for your pain but from all you've said you and your wife have not been compatible on fundamental issues right from the start of the marriage .It sounds like you've both been slowly coming to grips with that reality.

[lovingwhatis]

Hugs, Nick...

 

My heart is breaking just reading this, I don't know how you are able to stay strong as you do...

 

It seems that for both of you things are really coming to a head. You have taken the very bold approach to come and bear it all here on LS, I'd say this is a big action on your part. I know I wouldn't have been able to be as open and accessible as you are in the midst of this crisis. Participating in this discussion for the past week has also shifted things for you in many conscious and unconscious ways. I went back to reread some of the initial posts, and can just see it.

 

With all that said, I have couple of questions for you and also a few healing suggestions. I was thinking today about your healing file, and I know you've been focusing on your W healing from the shock of the A, but again, going back to you, what is in that file that is helping to heal you? Sure, as the WS you feel so guilty that you are probably not even wanting to go there. You seem to avoid talking about the A itself. You don't have to answer me, but it may be time to do some healing for you too. In my first post to you I asked you if you could ever completely forgive yourself for the A? It so seems that the way it happened for you the A was something to almost set yourself up with, in a way to self-punish, and sort of an excuse to now take the pressure off from fully making the tough decisions about the M yourself. Now it is sort of out of your hands to make that decision, you are waiting for your W to make it.

 

One of the most poignant things you said yesterday is that five days out of the week you walk away wanting to end it. That is just Wow! And yet you don't. Do you feel that this is the learned helplessness thing on top of wanting to do right for your W? That process of keeping holding on must Not be easy on you. So you are essentially living in the immense stress of a holding pattern. Do both your families know about what's going on with the M? Do you have friends who are supportive in this towards you?

 

I will write a separate post on couple of healing suggestions that you may want to try. Because ultimately regardless of what you two decide, you both need healing.

 

soserious, both of your comments hit home with me. I think the reality is finally hitting her hard. As of this morning, she said she wants to be left alone because her heart is completely broken. I think the tears are from that - and that to be very literal, her heart is broken exactly in two: One side can't imagine her life without me, her childhood love & lifelong companion. The other side is so crushed by both my infidelity & the creeping reality of what she & we would have to do to make this right that she is just done with it all.

 

I want to give her this day or two for last night's breakdown to sink in, also because she has a badly infected tooth & is going for a root canal tomorrow late. Once she's in a better place, I do think that the discussion needs to be had. If not jumping right to divorce, then at the very least ask her if she wants a separation. I'm still going to suggest marriage counseling, but it's looking less likely she's open to that.

[NickFeek]

I certainly don't wish a divorce upon you and I'm sorry for your pain but from all you've said you and your wife have not been compatible on fundamental issues right from the start of the marriage .It sounds like you've both been slowly coming to grips with that reality.

 

Thank you for that. I think you're right. For any kind of real world future happiness for both of us, this had to happen one way or another.

[lovingwhatis]

Here are my suggestions for some healing that you may want to do on your own.

 

One is Sedona method, it is a good method (not perfect) to process emotions. Some people swear by it, I have used it but not extensively. I found this site just now, and it seems to explain the process pretty well. You basically really allow the emotions and then ask yourself sincerely if you can let them go and when. What would happen if you work on your guilt AND your anger? Anger is such a powerful emotion. I am lately processing some anger that I feel I probably repressed, and it has been an eye opener as to how it really erupts.

 

http://delicioushealing.com/quick-start-for-the-sedona-method/

 

The other is EMDR therapy. I've had it as part of other therapies, and I've read on here dreamingoftigers;s endorsement of it. The crisis you are in is nothing short of traumatic, and EMDR therapy deals with that stress in a non invasive way.

 

Also, do you meditate? You've been so great at responding to posts on here, I can see that you have such a thorough approach to dealing with issues. Meditation is of course not about mental activity, but about going within and listening.

 

And one last thing. You have been together for so long. One can say, how can you throw away 20 years of M? But that view is based on the erroneous belief that things stay the same. Maybe the wedding vows kind of set this up. But there are cycles, and cycles end, and new ones begin. One can resist the ending of summer all they want, but it is an ending that is inevitable, and the more resistance doesn't change the fact that summer will end. Its like death in a way.

[trippi1432]

Wow, soserious....I am gaining a whole new perspective reading the responses on this thread. Just by the sheer virtue of what you are saying, I would have had every right to cheat on my alcoholic husband for his years of emotional abadonment of me. That actually makes perfect sense as his own son tends to quickly attach to other children's fathers rather than his own father due to lack of that emotional bond as well.

 

Fortunately, I only cheated on him with my long work hours and going to school at the end of the marriage....which surely justified him having an EA/PA....I am just wondering why I remained so complacent on getting my needs met elsewhere during those very dark 10 years. I guess school and work became my affair partner. There....I feel much better and can release all my guilt by not taking any responsibility for forcing my exH into an affair. And my exH can feel vindicated that he was right in cheating since my job was my affair.

 

My entire outlook on marriage has been totally changed....from now on, I will get my needs met by someone...be it my husband or not. Yes....a rant!! The entire idea that it is HER fault is ridiculous....did they both have a role to play....yes. Did Nick also know when she obtained her law degree years ago what he was signing up for?? Yes!!

 

Nick - the reason she is acting recalcitrant is because of the infidelity...I would be resistant to looking at my husband as an authority in trying to establish my decisions after being betrayed. If you are seeing her as recalcitrant, were you expecting your actions to break her or break the marriage?? Sorry, the use of that word to describe her almost sounded calculating....she will be looking far from you for guidance right now....trust has to be earned once broken.

 

Personally, I am hopeful for the MC for the two of you.

[soserious1]

Trippi,

 

Please read again, I did not advocate cheating whatsoever and in fact stated that my solution to my miserable sexless marriage was not to cheat but to clearly make my unhappiness known to my husband, when my efforts failed to produce any movement towards change I divorced him.. no cheating from me.

[lovingwhatis]

Nick!

 

Oh man, check this book out! I just found it as I was researching commitment phobia on LS! Wow, from the first pages, the description of Nice Guy fits you so well.

 

http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Guy/dp/0762415339/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1303836297&sr=8-1#reader_0762415339

 

Let me know what you think of this! I am really curious, because this is something I've struggled with myself.

[trippi1432]

Apologies soserious...it was 2sunnys post i was responding to...this thread is moving so fast.

 

Nick...another book suggestion for both you and your wife to read....His Needs, Her Needs by Willard F. Harley.

[NickFeek]

Hugs, Nick...

 

My heart is breaking just reading this, I don't know how you are able to stay strong as you do...

 

It seems that for both of you things are really coming to a head. You have taken the very bold approach to come and bear it all here on LS, I'd say this is a big action on your part. I know I wouldn't have been able to be as open and accessible as you are in the midst of this crisis. Participating in this discussion for the past week has also shifted things for you in many conscious and unconscious ways. I went back to reread some of the initial posts, and can just see it.

 

With all that said, I have couple of questions for you and also a few healing suggestions. I was thinking today about your healing file, and I know you've been focusing on your W healing from the shock of the A, but again, going back to you, what is in that file that is helping to heal you? Sure, as the WS you feel so guilty that you are probably not even wanting to go there. You seem to avoid talking about the A itself. You don't have to answer me, but it may be time to do some healing for you too. In my first post to you I asked you if you could ever completely forgive yourself for the A? It so seems that the way it happened for you the A was something to almost set yourself up with, in a way to self-punish, and sort of an excuse to now take the pressure off from fully making the tough decisions about the M yourself. Now it is sort of out of your hands to make that decision, you are waiting for your W to make it.

 

One of the most poignant things you said yesterday is that five days out of the week you walk away wanting to end it. That is just Wow! And yet you don't. Do you feel that this is the learned helplessness thing on top of wanting to do right for your W? That process of keeping holding on must Not be easy on you. So you are essentially living in the immense stress of a holding pattern. Do both your families know about what's going on with the M? Do you have friends who are supportive in this towards you?

 

I will write a separate post on couple of healing suggestions that you may want to try. Because ultimately regardless of what you two decide, you both need healing.

 

I have taught myself through much error that openness is best, even and especially in a crisis. Not to say I haven't messed that up often. And it's the openness that is keeping me strong.

 

I do think it's both learned helplessness AND wanting to do right for her. Yes, all of our parents know, most of our siblings, and several of our friends. They have all been supportive of both sides, believe it or not. I think they just feel badly for us all around.

[NickFeek]

Here are my suggestions for some healing that you may want to do on your own.

 

One is Sedona method, it is a good method (not perfect) to process emotions. Some people swear by it, I have used it but not extensively. I found this site just now, and it seems to explain the process pretty well. You basically really allow the emotions and then ask yourself sincerely if you can let them go and when. What would happen if you work on your guilt AND your anger? Anger is such a powerful emotion. I am lately processing some anger that I feel I probably repressed, and it has been an eye opener as to how it really erupts.

 

http://delicioushealing.com/quick-start-for-the-sedona-method/

 

The other is EMDR therapy. I've had it as part of other therapies, and I've read on here dreamingoftigers;s endorsement of it. The crisis you are in is nothing short of traumatic, and EMDR therapy deals with that stress in a non invasive way.

 

Also, do you meditate? You've been so great at responding to posts on here, I can see that you have such a thorough approach to dealing with issues. Meditation is of course not about mental activity, but about going within and listening.

 

And one last thing. You have been together for so long. One can say, how can you throw away 20 years of M? But that view is based on the erroneous belief that things stay the same. Maybe the wedding vows kind of set this up. But there are cycles, and cycles end, and new ones begin. One can resist the ending of summer all they want, but it is an ending that is inevitable, and the more resistance doesn't change the fact that summer will end. Its like death in a way.

 

I realize I didn't answer your other question. I really think how I'm processing the guilt is going to depend greatly on how this all turns out. If she ends up leaving me, I'll probably feel very guilty. I'm not nearly as bad as I was for the first 2-3 months after I cheated, but it's still there every day.

 

I will definitely give these a try, and read what you've sent me. I do meditate, though not nearly as often as I'd like. May be something I should do more of during this time.

 

I'm still struggling with the 25 years. It's my entire adult life, all of my college, part of high school. I have never imagined my life with anyone else. No matter how varied those years have been, we have always traveled them together, for better or worse. To change that may be necessary, but it will still hurt worse than anything I've experienced thus far.

[NickFeek]

My entire outlook on marriage has been totally changed....from now on, I will get my needs met by someone...be it my husband or not. Yes....a rant!! The entire idea that it is HER fault is ridiculous....did they both have a role to play....yes. Did Nick also know when she obtained her law degree years ago what he was signing up for?? Yes!!

 

Nick - the reason she is acting recalcitrant is because of the infidelity...I would be resistant to looking at my husband as an authority in trying to establish my decisions after being betrayed. If you are seeing her as recalcitrant, were you expecting your actions to break her or break the marriage?? Sorry, the use of that word to describe her almost sounded calculating....she will be looking far from you for guidance right now....trust has to be earned once broken.

 

Personally, I am hopeful for the MC for the two of you.

 

I agree that it's OUR fault, no one person's. Mine is more obvious & egregious, and shorter. Hers is more subtle & more socially acceptable, and much longer.

 

Remember that we had dated for years in high school & college before she chose her career/major. I had no idea what kind of a career she would have. Neither did she. We both knew it would be hard in the beginning, making her bones. We had no idea it would get worse, especially considering there are plenty of examples of lawyers we know personally in all types of law who don't work as much as she does. Some do, some don't, and in the same department. It's partly a matter of career, and partly personal choice.

 

Sorry, no, use of that word wasn't calculating. Other than that I completely agree with that last paragraph. The only thing I will say is that this does not explain why she has been so recalcitrant for at least 15 years.

 

I hope you're right about the counseling.

[NickFeek]

Apologies soserious...it was 2sunnys post i was responding to...this thread is moving so fast.

 

Nick...another book suggestion for both you and your wife to read....His Needs, Her Needs by Willard F. Harley.

 

I now have a damn impressive list! Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone!