The kids

[Silly_Girl]

Not all of us, but most of us who regularly post here have inhabited the at least one role in the infidelity triangle, and possibly two or all three of them!

 

I have been thinking about our children (the kids of the OW/OM posters). Not the impact of cheating/divorcing/reconciling etc, but as adults whose lives have been touched by infidelity (and it's possible our kids' lives have not, of course - events could have happened before they were born or without their knowledge as they hundreds of miles away with their own children) how do we best attempt to 'protect' them from the same experiences or problems.

 

Firstly, I'm aware we can't protect them per se, or force them to learn by the mistakes of others. Secondly, we could post vague idealistic notions, but I'm interested in more specific examples. Thirdly, I'm not interested in contributions which merely add up to cheater-bashing.

 

There are, in my view, many instances of cheating because the person in question either was not equipped - or did not feel equipped - to deal with things in a different manner. So I guess my question is about how we equip our kids/stepkids as best we can.

 

For example, the two men in my life who cheated both suffered from low self-esteem brought about by very VERY different circumstances. So obviously based on my personal experiences that is something I would consider to be a huge factor in cheating, and not something that I currently see my son affected by.

 

Secondly there's conflict-avoidance. Until I started reading here I simply had no idea how much that trait contributed to the likelihood of cheating. I'm a pretty no-nonsense person and would rather be wronged ten times over but it be transparent and a genuine mistake, than be wronged once, in a sneaky way with deliberate actions etc. So we talk in my house of the two wrongs. And how any mistake/error of judgement can be talked about, dealt with and moved on from in some way. I'm quite reasonable. But the second wrong - the covering up/lying is when I go NUTS. And my son has known this since he could talk and walk! Will he embrace the same principle in his own relationships? I don't know.

 

These are two traits that immediately sprang to mind but I'd really interested to hear others' thoughts.

[jthorne]

There are, in my view, many instances of cheating because the person in question either was not equipped - or did not feel equipped - to deal with things in a different manner. So I guess my question is about how we equip our kids/stepkids as best we can.

I have a migraine, so this may be a stream of consciousness, so take it or leave it. I also was not a child exposed to infidelity, so I'm somewhat disqualifed. However...

 

At first, I did not agree with your above statement. My first thought was that people really ARE equipped, they just choose not to use the equipment.

 

Then I started thinking about statements I had made in the past about cheaters being broken people, which I still stand by that statement.

 

So... I'm a bit conflicted. I know that when I was an OW way back when, I hade very poor self esteem. That poor self esteem made me vunerable to MM's advances/sob story/whatever. However, I still knew that cheating was wrong, but I did it anyway. It was easier than dealing with my shyt, and I was lazy. Years later, when I got bad news about my dad, coupled with the man I was seeing leaving for a job in another state, I again found myself vunerable to an EA via MM's advances/faux friendship/sob story/whatever. I didn't want to deal with my shyt, so it could have been an easy escape. Thank goodness, I found LS before it went too far.

 

I had the equipment of which you speak; it was just a bit damaged and dusty, and I was too scared to use it. So how does that apply to your question?

 

Raise well-adjusted kids with their own defined boundaries, and the courage and fortitude to enforce those boundaries.

[YellowShark]

Yes, your childhood affects how you deal with life, that is not in argument. But having a crappy childhood does not give someone a free pass to be a *dick* as an adult. Frankly I don't care what mommy or daddy did to someone 30 years ago, but if one is hurting people today, right now, and trying to place the ownership for those current actions on past actions - (see: "your childhood") - then sorry, that just doesn't wash with me.

 

Either deal with your issues or don't. But don't wrap yourself up in this "blanket of denial" and blame mommy and daddy's past actions for your actions today. It's all too common today for people to not take ownership for their actions, they often try to blame someone/something else for current poor judgement and choices.

[alexandria35]

My adult sons, while not perfect, are two of the most honest, loyal, affectionate, outspoken people I know. I really can't take all the credit for that because I made lots of mistakes when they were growing up and I have always believed that sometimes God was the one holding us together when I was messing up, so I really don't want to come across like I believe I was some sort of superior better parent than anyone else. I have always believed that the strongest and most powerful way to teach our kids is through the example we set.

 

Of course I had talks with my kids about the value of being honest but I didn't go nuts when they messed up and told a lie. Freaking out on them wouldn't have taught them them honesty it would have taught them that mom gets mad and freaks out when she is lied to. So what. Everyone gets pissed when they are lied to, even liars hate being lied to. My stepfather used to go ballistic whenever he thought I was lying to him which taught me that he was a big freaking hyprocrite because he didn't hold himself to the same standards. If I told a lie I was a terrible person but whenever he got caught being dishonest or particapating in someone else's dishonesty he had some slimy disgusting excuse of how it was different in his particular situation. BARF!!

 

If parents want to see there kids grow up to have certain qualities and strengths then they need to possess those qualities and strengths themselves, otherwise they are just doing the ole "do as I say, not as I do" routine and that never works. If we are going to demand honesty from our children then we have to demand that in everyone else we associate with and especially in ourselves.

[jthorne]

I understand your point JThorne. I knew cheating was wrong too, but chose to be an OW anyway. So it's not just learning what's right from wrong.

 

In the context of what SG is asking, I would extrapolate from your answer that encouraging our children to deal with issues in a healthy and non-destructive manner, maybe proactively dealing with issues, would be a useful tool to help them avoid taking the same roads we did.

 

So how do we do that?

My short answer was this:

Raise well-adjusted kids with their own defined boundaries, and the courage and fortitude to enforce those boundaries.

That was just my suggestion of what to do. As a non-parent, I could only take stabs at how one does that. It has to be harder when kids have already had infidelity modeled for them. And not a slam to Silly (just my perception based upon my interpretation of her posts), but she doesn't seem too sorry she had the A- so it seems to me that it would be even harder. How do you raise a child that doesn't cheat when you are not sorry you were involved in cheating yourself? Leading by example doesn't apply. If you find the behavior acceptable, then you can't really say, as jsb's smartazz answer, "do as i say, not as I do."

 

Perhaps the key is raising independent children that can think for themselves and make decisions on their own, based upon their own morals and boundaries.

Edited April 22, 2011 by jthorne

[Silly_Girl]

Well, I was referring to any children, despite whether they had seen infidelity.

 

There are things I do that I would wish my son not to do, or warn him against. No parent is perfect. So my being in a strong stable R now, that started out as an affair, that makes the three of us very happy, doesn't change my interest in the post.

[YellowShark]

My short answer was this:

That was just my suggestion of what to do. As a non-parent, I could only take stabs at how one does that. It has to be harder when kids have already had infidelity modeled for them.

 

As a parent and as a BS I can assure you I am doing everything in my power not to teach my child that breaking promises and contracts is ok. And that's what an affair is, the breaking of a contract/promise between two people - (where a third party - the BS - doesn't even know it's happening!) That is seriously underhanded and slimy.

 

You don't enter into a contract with a company and then screw that company over by doing business with the competition. Why there are lawsuits every day because of that kind of crap. So why should marriage any treated any different?

 

I am crushed and will take it to my grave that the woman I spent 7 years with broke a promise she made to me and was banging another married guy. I mean how sick is that? EVERYONE *knows* affairs are socially unacceptable, there is no wiggle room to deny that you don't know affairs are wrong.

 

That's why I feel so uncomfortable in this part of Loveshack. There are too many people who are simply trying to justify their affairs. You hear the old standbys like, "It just happened," or "they're in a loveless marriage," or "they're on their way out of their marriage anyways," or my favorite, "he/she really understands me and we are soulmates." Ya... ok... whatever.

 

It's like having a website for alcoholics and having other unrepentant alcoholics posting "drinking is ok."

[BB07]

As a parent and as a BS I can assure you I am doing everything in my power not to teach my child that breaking promises and contracts is ok. And that's what an affair is, the breaking of a contract/promise between two people - (where a third party - the BS - doesn't even know it's happening!) That is seriously underhanded and slimy.

 

You don't enter into a contract with a company and then screw that company over by doing business with the competition. Why there are lawsuits every day because of that kind of crap. So why should marriage any treated any different?

 

I am crushed and will take it to my grave that the woman I spent 7 years with broke a promise she made to me and was banging another married guy. I mean how sick is that? EVERYONE *knows* affairs are socially unacceptable, there is no wiggle room to deny that you don't know affairs are wrong.

 

That's why I feel so uncomfortable in this part of Loveshack. There are too many people who are simply trying to justify their affairs. You hear the old standbys like, "It just happened," or "they're in a loveless marriage," or "they're on their way out of their marriage anyways," or my favorite, "he/she really understands me and we are soulmates." Ya... ok... whatever.

 

It's like having a website for alcoholics and having other unrepentant alcoholics posting " drinking is ok."

 

 

YS......with all due respect the posters here at LS have very little to do with hand holding or cheering an affair on. Here at LS I think you get a very realistic picture because it's open to all walks of life posting, current OW's, OW's wanting out, XOW's and the BS's viewpoints are invaluable as it lends reality as to the part about there is a real person there who hurts.

 

Of course there are other sites that do not permit all sides to be heard but LS isn't one of them.

[OWoman]

There are, in my view, many instances of cheating because the person in question either was not equipped - or did not feel equipped - to deal with things in a different manner. So I guess my question is about how we equip our kids/stepkids as best we can.

 

My H "cheated" because at the time he did not have the courage / insight to stand up to an abusive (now X-)W and leave. He also did not have the selfishness to acknowledge openly that he had as much right to respect, dignity and happiness as she did, and to act in his own interests openly and proudly, since he'd been socialised into believing that men existed to nurture and cherish their dependents (which included their Ws ) and that responsibilities topped any notion of self-actualisation. And because decades of abuse had damaged his self-esteem to the extent where he honestly felt that that was what he was worth!

 

So, how to address that with his kids - we've made sure they're getting a consistent message from us (since we can't control what other messages they receive, particularly from his xW) that they as individuals have a right to their own happiness, dignity and self-worth, and that they have as much right to that as the next person. That Ms should be (and are, in healthy cases) founded on love and mutual respect, not on fear or threats or abuse. That staying together no matter what is wrong when it is better for partners as individuals to be apart. That kids can be happier post-D than pre-D. That good core values inside oneself are far more important than societal norms. That strong boundaries protect one's own internal resources and ensure sustainability. That trying to be "Mr Nice Guy" all the time leads to conflict avoidance and that some conflicts are better confronted head-on and resolved, rather than ignored and left to fester. And that we love and support them, even if we don't always agree with all of their choices.

 

We're getting there in the main... but obviously we've got a lot of damage to undo, and many years of "bad programming" to reverse.

[fooled once]

Yes, your childhood affects how you deal with life, that is not in argument. But having a crappy childhood does not give someone a free pass to be a *dick* as an adult. Frankly I don't care what mommy or daddy did to someone 30 years ago, but if one is hurting people today, right now, and trying to place the ownership for those current actions on past actions - (see: "your childhood") - then sorry, that just doesn't wash with me.

 

Either deal with your issues or don't. But don't wrap yourself up in this "blanket of denial" and blame mommy and daddy's past actions for your actions today. It's all too common today for people to not take ownership for their actions, they often try to blame someone/something else for current poor judgement and choices.

 

Good post. I also don't like the whole "when I was 2, I was picked on and so today, everything I know I do wrong is blamed on the fact that I was picked on when I was 2".

 

My adult sons, while not perfect, are two of the most honest, loyal, affectionate, outspoken people I know. I really can't take all the credit for that because I made lots of mistakes when they were growing up and I have always believed that sometimes God was the one holding us together when I was messing up, so I really don't want to come across like I believe I was some sort of superior better parent than anyone else. I have always believed that the strongest and most powerful way to teach our kids is through the example we set.

 

If parents want to see there kids grow up to have certain qualities and strengths then they need to possess those qualities and strengths themselves, otherwise they are just doing the ole "do as I say, not as I do" routine and that never works. If we are going to demand honesty from our children then we have to demand that in everyone else we associate with and especially in ourselves.

 

alexandria, I think I love you Great post.

 

I also don't see affairs as a whoops. It is a conscious decision to cheat. It isn't a drunken one night stand (not that I find that acceptable....)

 

I teach my son to value those in his life and to honor those he loves. He was cheated on by his last girlfriend and I have watched him for 2 years now struggle with dating because he does not get how someone can cheat. He asked numerous times "why didn't she just tell me she wanted to date others". I have no answer for him on that except she is a coward and doesn't know what loyalty or honor is.

 

Kids DO model their parents behavior many many times. Besides their friends, their main influence is their parents or teachers.

 

I would love to say I had low self esteem when I started dating a guy who was married, but living apart from his wife. I could blame it on my ex and his physical abuse. But I don't. I own what I do and do not use excuses.

 

It is my job as a parent to model the characteristics I want my son to have. It is my responsibility to communicate with him.

 

In regards to my stepdaughter, it is my job to ensure when she was in our care that we did the best to be good role models, keep the lines of communication open and to not bad mouth her mother (I know for some women this is incredibly hard to do...which is really sad because no matter what, those kids are her kids and many times kids believe they have the same character flaws their parents have because of DNA). I have seen way too many situations where women do their best to try to replace the biological mother and discredit her.

 

Not sure if I have answered the question...wasn't really sure what you were looking for.

[alexandria35]

I'm sorry that happened to your son FO. It's really hard to have to standby and see our kids get hurt. My youngest son had a terrible time with his first real love. She didn't cheat on him but she was a crazy one. Actually punched him in the face and broke his nose while he was sleeping. He fell asleep because he was working two jobs. He went to her place one night during the couple of hours he had between jobs and fell asleep. She felt that he was being direspectful, became enraged and punched him hard enough to break his cute nose. I was so pissed but I knew I had to let him deal with it. He had such a hard time breaking up with her because he loved her so much.

[Spark1111]

It is all about role-modeling. If you want kind, strong, children who conduct themselves with dignity, develop strong boundaries and the confidence to achieve their goals, they must witness this every day.

 

It must also be communicated and discussed daily.

 

I am often amazed what parents do not discuss with their children, either in an effort to shield them from the harsher realities of life or to avoid difficult topics. Does anyone truly realize, in this age of digital media, how much children are exposed to and at younger and younger ages?

 

I think, know I know, it is worse to overprotect a child than to give them the tools needed to deal with all life will throw at them. And life will throw a lot their way.

 

Every moment spent with them is a potential teaching lesson. But none is more important than the actions they witness you undertaking, IMO.

[Silly_Girl]

For me it absolutely is not as simple as being a role model.

 

Firstly, no one is perfect. So to rely on ourselves wholly as the example (not that I'm saying this is being suggested) won't work.

 

Secondly I find people often take behaviours in one of two ways. I know with different bosses I have had, and also my parents, I have seen things and thought 'Jesus Billy! I'll NEVER do that when I'm in their position', or 'I aspire to be like them in x/y/z way'.

 

Some children of child abusers go on to become child abusers, some others could never ever do such a thing.

 

There is also a generational thing, I think. Teenagers often consider their parents to be slightly stuffy or highly-strung and even the best parental example can have its impact lessened due to the attitude of the onlooker.

 

That's why I was quite interested in how posters may hope to deal with behavioural traits. Interesting responses though.

[OWoman]

If parents want to see there kids grow up to have certain qualities and strengths then they need to possess those qualities and strengths themselves, otherwise they are just doing the ole "do as I say, not as I do" routine and that never works. If we are going to demand honesty from our children then we have to demand that in everyone else we associate with and especially in ourselves.

 

It is all about role-modeling. If you want kind, strong, children who conduct themselves with dignity, develop strong boundaries and the confidence to achieve their goals, they must witness this every day.

 

I disagree with both of these. They imply that kids are doomed to rise or sink to the level of the parenting they receive. Life is clearly not so mechanically determinist, as I'm sure all of us has experienced daily. We've all seen the kids of thugs who've gone on to excel as people and as achievers; the kids of the most loving parents who've ended up on loser street; and the kids who turn out no better or no worse than their parents, but completely different, with different attributes and personalities. If it was a simple as role-modelling, social work programmes would have 100% success rates and no kid need ever mess up again.

 

Personally, I have met many "kind, strong, children who conduct themselves with dignity, develop strong boundaries and the confidence to achieve their goals" who have not witnessed that every day - they've grown up in war zones or gang lands or as orphans on really rough streets in the wake of parents succumbing to AIDS when they were small. Yet they manage to scrape together the wherewithall from their own internal resources to become those "kind, strong children who conduct themselves with dignity, develop strong boundaries and the confidence to achieve their goals".

 

I'm sure most of us also don't consider ourselves mere mirrors of our parents - I know I certainly have attributes my parents lacked (and still lack) that I have developed through exposure to different circumstances and experiences to those that they encountered; and I'm sure that there are attributes that they claim to have, which I wouldn't claim.

 

Ironically, in other threads the converse has been claimed - that SG's son has somehow developed some moral compass in the absence of any parental input from SG because of course, as an OW, how could she possibly have one of her own etc... It really seems as if SG simply can't win on this - if her son is doing OK, he must be getting it "somewhere else"; but yet, he's doomed unless she can role model him perfection? Gimme a break!

 

I have wonderful kids - but I certainly don't claim the credit for everything they have become. For that, credit goes to THEM. As a parent, I can provide only the raw materials - what they build or destroy with those is up to them.

[OWoman]

Of course children are going to be influenced by different things/people. The subject of this thread though was what can WE do, as parents, to help them make the right choices. It's about what we can do at home. What can we teach them? What do we do to try to give them a good foundation?

 

While I agree with you, I believe that it is a bit overtopical as the whole question was what do we do at home.

 

SIT, I do agree with you - but I took issue with the points in those two posts that implied that UNLESS parents role model things for their kids, those kids are not going to develop those attributes. Kids have a lot more agency than simply becoming what we might like them to be.

 

My H moved to the country when his son was very small, in the hopes that his son would share his love of nature, and develop certain attributes that he has that thrive in such an environment (a sense of adventure, creativity, exploration, etc). He role modelled those behaviours, involved his son in all kinds of "dads and lads" activities and tried really hard to interest him. His son is a city boy. No interest in nature of the countryside, no sense of adventure or eagerness to explore, and a very different kind of creativity. It led to frustrations until they were allowed to accept each other's differences, and to meet each other on some neutral ground, getting to know each other as individuals and not trying to project some notion of desired characteristics onto the other.

 

Sometimes "role modelling" can have the opposite effect in turning a kid OFF certain activities, attributes or behaviours, because they want to define themselves as different to their parents.

[alexandria35]

For me it absolutely is not as simple as being a role model.

 

Firstly, no one is perfect. So to rely on ourselves wholly as the example (not that I'm saying this is being suggested) won't work.

 

Secondly I find people often take behaviours in one of two ways. I know with different bosses I have had, and also my parents, I have seen things and thought 'Jesus Billy! I'll NEVER do that when I'm in their position', or 'I aspire to be like them in x/y/z way'.

 

Some children of child abusers go on to become child abusers, some others could never ever do such a thing.

 

There is also a generational thing, I think. Teenagers often consider their parents to be slightly stuffy or highly-strung and even the best parental example can have its impact lessened due to the attitude of the onlooker.

 

That's why I was quite interested in how posters may hope to deal with behavioural traits. Interesting responses though.

 

Okay so first of all I don't think one person has remotely suggested that to be good examples for our kids we have to be perfect. That's ridiculous. Our kids don't expect us to be perfect either and we certainly shouldn't be trying to model perfection for them. I made a lot of mistakes when raising my children. I know it and they know it. I do think I did a good job of teaching my kids, through example, that when one makes a mistake, they own up to it, apologise for it if someone else was impacted, and then learn from it so that it is not repeated.

 

As for what you said about some children of abusers not growing up to become abusers themselves. Umm...I don't get your point. Are you saying that that some abused children grow up to be just fine and unaffected by the abuse they endured? Because that argument is seriously flawed. I have been very close to several people who came out of terribly abusive homes, one of them suffered horrifying abuse. Not one of these people grew up to be abusers themselves. Instead they grew into adults who carried enormous emotional pain that not only deeply affected thier lives, but also the lives of everyone close to them. I'm sure you know that child abuse creates a legacy of pain and suffering. Just because we don't do exactly the same things our parents did doesn't mean that their actions don't have a huge impact on who we become. My mother (and my stepfather, when he came along) was a drug addict until I was about 11 years old. When I grew up I never did anything harder then pot and even that was only occasional. But I still had some serious emotional issues from the years my mother spent loving her drugs and men more than she loved me. And I just want to say that my mom turned her life around and has more than made amends for her past, but I still had to deal with the issues I carried.

 

As for teenagers thinking their parens are stuffy and out of touch with them. Well I don't think that was a huge issue for me and my kids as I was a very young parent, but I suppose there is some of that going on for all teenagers. Again, this doesn't really mean anything. All teenagers reach an age where they start challenging their parents and questioning their parents knowledge and authority. That is a natural part of growing up and becoming independent. I'm sure many parents feel helpless and inept during this phase. They probably wonder if anything they have tried to teach their kids has gotten through to them or made a difference. Trust me, it has! A teenager or young adult may rebel and go nuts for a while but at some point they will return to what they were taught as children. How many times have we heard somebody say "oh my God! I sound just like my mother" LOL All the ways that we become just like our parents can be either humorous or tragic depending on what parts of our parents we are emulating and how hard we are willing to work to overcome the negative lessons our parents taught us.

 

SG in the post I quoted you seem to be diminishing the impact we have on our kids by saying things like some kids won't be abusers even though they were abused and teenagers don't listen to their parents anyways. You don't seem to realize the huge influence your action will have on your kids in the long run.

[alexandria35]

I disagree with both of these. They imply that kids are doomed to rise or sink to the level of the parenting they receive. Life is clearly not so mechanically determinist, as I'm sure all of us has experienced daily. We've all seen the kids of thugs who've gone on to excel as people and as achievers; the kids of the most loving parents who've ended up on loser street; and the kids who turn out no better or no worse than their parents, but completely different, with different attributes and personalities. If it was a simple as role-modelling, social work programmes would have 100% success rates and no kid need ever mess up again.

 

Personally, I have met many "kind, strong, children who conduct themselves with dignity, develop strong boundaries and the confidence to achieve their goals" who have not witnessed that every day - they've grown up in war zones or gang lands or as orphans on really rough streets in the wake of parents succumbing to AIDS when they were small. Yet they manage to scrape together the wherewithall from their own internal resources to become those "kind, strong children who conduct themselves with dignity, develop strong boundaries and the confidence to achieve their goals".

 

I'm sure most of us also don't consider ourselves mere mirrors of our parents - I know I certainly have attributes my parents lacked (and still lack) that I have developed through exposure to different circumstances and experiences to those that they encountered; and I'm sure that there are attributes that they claim to have, which I wouldn't claim.

 

Ironically, in other threads the converse has been claimed - that SG's son has somehow developed some moral compass in the absence of any parental input from SG because of course, as an OW, how could she possibly have one of her own etc... It really seems as if SG simply can't win on this - if her son is doing OK, he must be getting it "somewhere else"; but yet, he's doomed unless she can role model him perfection? Gimme a break!

 

I have wonderful kids - but I certainly don't claim the credit for everything they have become. For that, credit goes to THEM. As a parent, I can provide only the raw materials - what they build or destroy with those is up to them.

 

Again...Most people do not grow up to be exact replicas of their parents, nor to they make the exact same mistakes that their parents made. My stepfather was badly abused as a child. He became a drug addict, a liar and a cheater. That was when he was a young adult, then he started fighting for himself and making changes. Quit drinking, quit using drugs, found legal employment, and had two children with my mom. We attended church and became a normal family, at least that's the way it looked to the rest of the world. When my step father would speak of his childhood people were amazed at how he overcame his childhood to become a good upstanding citizen. And I gotta give him credit for the changes he made in himself, but I want to tell you that appearances are deceiving. Just because somebody becomes productive pillars of their communtiy doesn't mean that they are not dealing with deep emotional scars. My stepfather looked like a fine example of somebody who was living a happy life in spite of the abuse he suffered but since I lived with him I know this was not the case at all. He had serious issues until the day he died. However he never gave up and he never stopped trying to better himself and for that I give him a ton of credit.

[silverplanets]

Not all of us, but most of us who regularly post here have inhabited the at least one role in the infidelity triangle, and possibly two or all three of them!

 

I have been thinking about our children (the kids of the OW/OM posters). Not the impact of cheating/divorcing/reconciling etc, but as adults whose lives have been touched by infidelity (and it's possible our kids' lives have not, of course - events could have happened before they were born or without their knowledge as they hundreds of miles away with their own children) how do we best attempt to 'protect' them from the same experiences or problems.

 

Firstly, I'm aware we can't protect them per se, or force them to learn by the mistakes of others. Secondly, we could post vague idealistic notions, but I'm interested in more specific examples. Thirdly, I'm not interested in contributions which merely add up to cheater-bashing.

 

There are, in my view, many instances of cheating because the person in question either was not equipped - or did not feel equipped - to deal with things in a different manner. So I guess my question is about how we equip our kids/stepkids as best we can.

 

For example, the two men in my life who cheated both suffered from low self-esteem brought about by very VERY different circumstances. So obviously based on my personal experiences that is something I would consider to be a huge factor in cheating, and not something that I currently see my son affected by.

 

Secondly there's conflict-avoidance. Until I started reading here I simply had no idea how much that trait contributed to the likelihood of cheating. I'm a pretty no-nonsense person and would rather be wronged ten times over but it be transparent and a genuine mistake, than be wronged once, in a sneaky way with deliberate actions etc. So we talk in my house of the two wrongs. And how any mistake/error of judgement can be talked about, dealt with and moved on from in some way. I'm quite reasonable. But the second wrong - the covering up/lying is when I go NUTS. And my son has known this since he could talk and walk! Will he embrace the same principle in his own relationships? I don't know.

 

These are two traits that immediately sprang to mind but I'd really interested to hear others' thoughts.

 

Hi SG ...

 

Good question ...

 

I work with a lot of children and something you learn early on is that telling them what to do just doesn't work.

 

von Glaserfeld (Radical Constructivism) - essentially, children construct their own reality and schemas, they can't be built from outside. They will amend these structures in light of experiences.

 

You can give them rules etc (and obviously should) but they are going to be stored in a schema called "mum's list of rules/how I am expected to behave", they are not going to be directly internalised into their own schema. They will evolve their own schema based independently ...

 

As they get older they should (if they are to become a well developed adult) use their own schemas in preference to the "mum's list of rules one". Their schema is going to lack all the experiences that you have as an adult and hence they are going to make, depressingly, all the "mistakes" that we all make ..... and it's important they do, otherwise they won't really "learn".

 

I know my daughter will no doubt do things that I, as an adult, will have learnt not to do. It's part of her right as a child (if she's lucky). In my view the earlier I allow her to make mistakes and self-correct then the less likely she is to make huge mistakes at a later age. The earlier she starts modifying her schemas then the more "tempered" they will be by adult life.

 

Lieing is a part of social interaction. We all do it ... yes, that dress looks fine/No, you don't look tired etc etc. A child's schema has to absorb the myriad of social rules and situations that we, as adults, have learnt to work with most of the time ...... they are bound to make a few clangers on the way :-):-)

 

To me it's the most wonderful thing in the world ...., the chance to encourage and create space for another human soul to develop into adulthood and consciousness.

 

Hope this makes some sense, take care

 

Chris

:-)

[Silly_Girl]

Ironically, in other threads the converse has been claimed - that SG's son has somehow developed some moral compass in the absence of any parental input from SG because of course, as an OW, how could she possibly have one of her own etc... It really seems as if SG simply can't win on this - if her son is doing OK, he must be getting it "somewhere else"; but yet, he's doomed unless she can role model him perfection? Gimme a break!

 

Ha! Well spotted! That had passed me by.

[Silly_Girl]

But it isn't about being perfect. Expecting perfection sets one up for failure. To me, that contributes to a low self esteem when one can't meet that goal. It encourages secrecy and deception as one wouldn't be able to admit to their faults for fear of judgment.

 

IMO, being a good role model includes handling our issues (because we all have some) in the most healthly manner possible...owning our faults and mistakes, and doing what we can to improve ourselves and making amends to those we're hurt. It includes the ability to love and forgive ourselves despite our faults and mistakes.

 

Like this post...

 

Just to clarify. I'm not suggesting perfection as an expectation.

 

My point is that being a role model will help in terms of instilling behaviours etc, BUT we none of us can rely on that only, because none of us are perfect and we ALL will make mistakes. So if we're going with 'do as I do, not as I say' it's a flawed approach because - on the exaggerated assumption that kids follow in our footsteps - we're 'teaching' them bad stuff simply by being human. Because all humans will eff up from time to time.

[Silly_Girl]

Okay so first of all I don't think one person has remotely suggested that to be good examples for our kids we have to be perfect.

 

That's not what I said. I believe no one is perfect. It doesn't stop us from being great parents but if us as role models is the only influence on our kids' behaviour as adults, then we're doomed! Because they will make all the same mistakes we make. Except that's not the reality of it. So I'm saying there is more to parenting than being a role model. That's all.

 

That's ridiculous. Our kids don't expect us to be perfect either and we certainly shouldn't be trying to model perfection for them. I made a lot of mistakes when raising my children. I know it and they know it. I do think I did a good job of teaching my kids, through example, that when one makes a mistake, they own up to it, apologise for it if someone else was impacted, and then learn from it so that it is not repeated.

 

That's very important too. I know in coming to terms with my previous relationship (my son, towards the end of it witnessed domestic violence) the counsellor (who worked a lot with children) talked to me about that exact process, and owning actions and the impact of actions. Found it very useful.

 

As for what you said about some children of abusers not growing up to become abusers themselves. Umm...I don't get your point. Are you saying that that some abused children grow up to be just fine and unaffected by the abuse they endured?

 

Please feel free to re-read my post because that is not close to what I said... I am saying that kids are NOT destined to follow the behaviour of their parents. Just a simple opinion about kids not automatically turning in to their parents.

 

Because that argument is seriously flawed. I have been very close to several people who came out of terribly abusive homes, one of them suffered horrifying abuse. Not one of these people grew up to be abusers themselves. Instead they grew into adults who carried enormous emotional pain that not only deeply affected thier lives, but also the lives of everyone close to them. I'm sure you know that child abuse creates a legacy of pain and suffering. Just because we don't do exactly the same things our parents did doesn't mean that their actions don't have a huge impact on who we become. My mother (and my stepfather, when he came along) was a drug addict until I was about 11 years old. When I grew up I never did anything harder then pot and even that was only occasional. But I still had some serious emotional issues from the years my mother spent loving her drugs and men more than she loved me. And I just want to say that my mom turned her life around and has more than made amends for her past, but I still had to deal with the issues I carried.

 

As for teenagers thinking their parens are stuffy and out of touch with them. Well I don't think that was a huge issue for me and my kids as I was a very young parent, but I suppose there is some of that going on for all teenagers. Again, this doesn't really mean anything. All teenagers reach an age where they start challenging their parents and questioning their parents knowledge and authority. That is a natural part of growing up and becoming independent. I'm sure many parents feel helpless and inept during this phase. They probably wonder if anything they have tried to teach their kids has gotten through to them or made a difference. Trust me, it has! A teenager or young adult may rebel and go nuts for a while but at some point they will return to what they were taught as children.

 

I'm quite intrigued as to what you base this on. Is it some sort of research or just a gut feel? I am always fascinated by siblings and how they can be so very different despite growing up in the same house just a year or so apart. I don't believe people rebel and then return to what they were taught as kids. I'm sure some do, but not all. I live very differently to how my parents lived at my age. I was adopted by my dad at three, so I guess I get various traits from my bio-dad (hard for me to know) but I definitely have not - thankfully - simply replicated my parents' outlook and behaviours.

 

How many times have we heard somebody say "oh my God! I sound just like my mother" LOL

 

And sometimes I hear myself using a phrase my son uses a lot; or the receptionist at work. Doesn't mean anything profound.

 

All the ways that we become just like our parents can be either humorous or tragic depending on what parts of our parents we are emulating and how hard we are willing to work to overcome the negative lessons our parents taught us.

 

SG in the post I quoted you seem to be diminishing the impact we have on our kids by saying things like some kids won't be abusers even though they were abused and teenagers don't listen to their parents anyways. You don't seem to realize the huge influence your action will have on your kids in the long run.

 

Maybe you see it as diminishing. My experiences mean I think there's a lot more to determining future behaviours than ONLY example behaviour.

 

As for the huge influence on my son of my 'action'. Not sure how you'd know that. I'm a very active parent, for a long time I was his only parent. I'm pretty happy that the overall impact of my new relationship is positive for him. And this isn't a knee-jerk reaction of defensiveness. All of my best friends have said they wish they were as bonded to their kids as I am to mine. We are very close and we know each other - and can read each other - very well. I'm very lucky. So when I say I think the impact is minimal, it's not denial. It's because I see his father in him, and how he processed things both as a teen and now. I see how my son reacts to things, at the time and much later on. I see how mature and grounded he is, he talks over some really tricky stuff at times, usually brought on by drama work, or religious studies, or real life.

 

My post was not about how do I deal with the impact on my son of my falling in love with a married man. It was how - in this day and age - do we best equip our kids so they don't end up in a situation related to infidelity that we would not wish to see them in.

[Silly_Girl]

Hi SG ...

 

Good question ...

 

I work with a lot of children and something you learn early on is that telling them what to do just doesn't work.

 

von Glaserfeld (Radical Constructivism) - essentially, children construct their own reality and schemas, they can't be built from outside. They will amend these structures in light of experiences.

 

You can give them rules etc (and obviously should) but they are going to be stored in a schema called "mum's list of rules/how I am expected to behave", they are not going to be directly internalised into their own schema. They will evolve their own schema based independently ...

 

As they get older they should (if they are to become a well developed adult) use their own schemas in preference to the "mum's list of rules one". Their schema is going to lack all the experiences that you have as an adult and hence they are going to make, depressingly, all the "mistakes" that we all make ..... and it's important they do, otherwise they won't really "learn".

 

I know my daughter will no doubt do things that I, as an adult, will have learnt not to do. It's part of her right as a child (if she's lucky). In my view the earlier I allow her to make mistakes and self-correct then the less likely she is to make huge mistakes at a later age. The earlier she starts modifying her schemas then the more "tempered" they will be by adult life.

 

Lieing is a part of social interaction. We all do it ... yes, that dress looks fine/No, you don't look tired etc etc. A child's schema has to absorb the myriad of social rules and situations that we, as adults, have learnt to work with most of the time ...... they are bound to make a few clangers on the way :-):-)

 

To me it's the most wonderful thing in the world ...., the chance to encourage and create space for another human soul to develop into adulthood and consciousness.

 

Hope this makes some sense, take care

 

Chris

:-)

 

Hey you!!!! Really hope things are great in your world and your daughter is doing well

 

What you say really does make sense. It is definitely a factor but not the bible by which our children will live.

 

And I agree that the 'telling' approach is just not going to work. And I'm glad about that! I like that our kids will be individuals. In fact it's true that often the telling has the opposite effect. Telling a toddler not to touch something because it's hot can often elicit the response of them immediately reaching out with their hand to test your theory, and some kids never really move past that

 

I do a lot of exploring with my son. He's always been interested in other religions and cultures and the integration of a specific contingent from another continent in to his primary school led to a lot of 'well, how do you think YOU would feel?' conversations and he likes that. So that's good for trying to broaden horizons about other people not necessarily reacting in the same way to the same thing (I want him to know there's more than one valid viewpoint).

 

The lying thing - that's my way of making it clear that mistakes are fine and expected, and good even. We can deal with ANYTHING. But if he covers up and is deceitful it makes sorting anything out far more difficult and erodes trust. We had a painful time when my step-son nabbed a credit card in our house to buy a program to use online. The stealing we could deal with. It took more than a month of detective work, arguments with the mother and interrogation before we got to the bottom of it. The lad's only punishment for stealing was to reimburse us, so not too bad really. The punishment for lying was much more weighty!

 

You're so right about the kids selecting their own recipe from what's available. I see that happening before my very eyes actually. And yes, their experiences and own mistake-making will all go in to the pot too.

[Silly_Girl]

this is a very good post to me. i work in a field that works closely with children. i have seen some of the most horrifying things that children go through daily and some of the sweetest actions children can have. children are vulnerable, innocent and need to have guidance and structure in order to grow into healthy adults.

 

todays kids are exposed to way more things that when i was a child. children at the age of 8, 9 10, etc have cell phones. i personally do not agree with that and i do not buy the argument of children needing to be able to reach their parents. i am on a committee to ban cell phones in schools.

 

between cell phones and video games, many children today have little to no imagination. they must be stimulated with electronics versus their surroundings and life outside of a home/building. many have no idea what it is like to go outside and play kick the can. more and more kids are having back issues, hand issue and sight issues from being hunched over playing video/computer/cell phone games. it is very sad to see how technology has negatively impacted our children.

 

I agree with the above. One of the reasons my son socialises with his peers less than others is because we will go off cycling, rollerblading, walk along the hills or beach, row on the canal, play golf, do jigsaws, visit antique shops, bake bread, do gardening. On a weekend some of his friends, a couple of whom are obscenely bright, will just sit with a console and the only discussion is ABOUT the console. That is so sad. Heartbreaking.

 

 

i did not see where anyone even remotely claimed to imply they were perfect. of course no one is, and it is silly to try to intimate that anyone said that. i have never met a single kid who believed their parents did not make mistakes. child do worship their parents and do try to model their behavior. they also do this with teachers or coaches. people make mistakes; engaging in an affair while married or with a married person is not considered a mistake. it is a conscious decision. it might be a mistake for me to spend $40 on shoes instead of paying that towards a credit card. mistakes are generally a one time thing; not a continuous activity. to try to imply that it is a 'mistake' is in my view trying to provide an excuse for infidelity.

 

Others may view infidelity as a mistake. Being involved in an affair does not mean one is a bad parent. My relationship isn't a 'mistake'. I do regret that we did not meet sooner, so that she (the wife) would still have been living with her other guy. I regret the deceit. Lying is wrong. But it's great that we met and are together.

 

children who have dealt with child abuse do suffer and do not just forget about it and go on with life. many end up suffering in silence and that takes a huge toll on them. children do model some of their parents traits or characteristics. they also model their teachers, their coaches, their friends' parents and even characters on tv. they are not influenced just by one person.

 

i believe people take others behaviors in various ways, not just two as you do.

 

In terms of behaviours we notice, or find significant, although it's an oversimplification, I generally think 'yes, must try and do that', or 'nope, never want to be like that!'. So I'd be interested to hear what you mean about various ways.

 

when kids become teenagers, their influence comes from friends for the most part; but many children already have foundations in which to grow from; morals and ethics that they have been raised with, boundaries and respect that were taught to them.

 

Yes, the behaviour of their peers is huge. More for girls I tend to think.

 

 

we do not know what her child will feel or think when he finds out his momma has been having an affair. i am sure sillygirl herself does not look forward to any accusations he may have or have to deal with any negative words her son may say to her.

 

I'm not concerned as such, I mean, there is nothing to fear. And I would rather he expressed himself if he felt upset/outrage/other. I'm pretty sure I can predict his reaction. And his dad feels the same. But that's not for me to influence. He's entitled to his reaction, of course.

 

alexandria, you wrote a very good post. you are correct in saying parents do have long lasting impacts on their kids; good, bad or indifferent. kids do look to their parents for approval, acceptance and behaviors. sometimes it is big things that have impact on our kids; and other times, it is the smallest thing we did not expect to have an impact and boy does it ever.

 

very interesting thread.

 

The biggest impact of my parents on my life today, is how they treat me - today. I consider myself 100% responsible for anything and everything I've done since I moved out at 18 (and long before). I have definitely made decisions they've heavily disagreed with, mostly they've been the good things I've done, funnily enough! So maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree and placing too much emphasis on the potential of the parenting style to affect adult behaviour. Maybe I should chill, what will be, will be...?!

[silverplanets]

Hey you!!!! Really hope things are great in your world and your daughter is doing well

 

What you say really does make sense. It is definitely a factor but not the bible by which our children will live.

 

And I agree that the 'telling' approach is just not going to work. And I'm glad about that! I like that our kids will be individuals. In fact it's true that often the telling has the opposite effect. Telling a toddler not to touch something because it's hot can often elicit the response of them immediately reaching out with their hand to test your theory, and some kids never really move past that

 

I do a lot of exploring with my son. He's always been interested in other religions and cultures and the integration of a specific contingent from another continent in to his primary school led to a lot of 'well, how do you think YOU would feel?' conversations and he likes that. So that's good for trying to broaden horizons about other people not necessarily reacting in the same way to the same thing (I want him to know there's more than one valid viewpoint).

 

The lying thing - that's my way of making it clear that mistakes are fine and expected, and good even. We can deal with ANYTHING. But if he covers up and is deceitful it makes sorting anything out far more difficult and erodes trust. We had a painful time when my step-son nabbed a credit card in our house to buy a program to use online. The stealing we could deal with. It took more than a month of detective work, arguments with the mother and interrogation before we got to the bottom of it. The lad's only punishment for stealing was to reimburse us, so not too bad really. The punishment for lying was much more weighty!

 

You're so right about the kids selecting their own recipe from what's available. I see that happening before my very eyes actually. And yes, their experiences and own mistake-making will all go in to the pot too.

 

Hi SG,

 

Things are as complex in my world as I think they are in everyones ... but I'm happy with that - it means I am living a real life and, for me, that's a luxury worth everything.

 

My daughter astounds me continously with her awarness, her love and her being. She is at that wonderful age of being half adult and half child and it's an honour to share it with her :)

 

I am not religious in the accepted sense, but spiritual. I have this image that every child holds a soul in side them ... and that soul can develop and fully enter the body and begin to consciously direct the physical being OR that soul can never develop, remain inactivated or trapped inside a physical machine stuck in re-acting only mode.

 

I see the success criteria of my role as parent is that my daughter's soul and spirit is given the space to develop and that she feels confident and secure enough to step fully into herself and really enter into her adult life.

 

We learn by experience and mistakes ... and I work hard to ensure she has the space and confidence to make mistakes and benefit from the learning that is in them.

 

At the same time, I strive to ensure that she is not put in a position where she is required to make decisions that are too far outside her zone of development or which have implications beyond what she could be reasonably expected to handle at her age.

 

Provided these two conditions are not breached, I tend to let her make choices ... and process the results.

 

I've found that no only does she gain confidence in her ability to handle situtions but, equally importantly, I've gained confidence in her ability as well.

 

It's kind of an incremental step approach, rather than one big leap in later years.

 

Of course, I won't know if this is the right approach for quite some time yet !!!!

 

take care

Chris

[Bigsmoke]

I think you need to set a good example if you expect your kids to turn out okay. Thye can overcom bad examples and go their own way. But, they do not respect you if you are immoral.

In the context of cheating, I think cheating on your spouse or being involved with a married person is a horrible example for kids, as it is dishonest and abusive. I do not see how a child could have much respect for a parent that does this.