Is this marriage savable?

[IfiKnewThen]

hi...

 

what happened to you very painful and shocking indeed. and i do know where you are coming from. and i agree with other posters here that it was extremely cruel and very avoidant.

 

i am going to tell you some things though, and it may be hard to hear or relate to for you...i don't know...

 

but i want you to really step outside of yourself. by the way...this is NOT about blaming you or making you the guilty party at ALL. so please lets get that clear. but this is about something i can relate to...and maybe it will ring familiar with you too just a bit.

 

someone left me in a very shocking manner too. it is a very different situation than yours but the behavior of the person i speak of, was spot on with your wifes. (only they're a male)

 

ok...here goes: we knew each other for 10 years. i till this day thought he was God sent to me. he always turned the other check, and went out of his way to please me. he sacrificed a lot for me , 10 years of his life. i was his first real love. i was older and domineering or really just a strong aggressive person. sighs...i hate even typing this but its true. i couldnt give my life to him, because my life was a complete mess. i was great to him in the beginning but as as time went on i got all too comfortable in his dedication to me and his love. (which was beyond awesome) i took him for granted.

 

because they were both long distance i was very insecure and kinda put a strong hold on them. i am sick as i write this. i am very angry at myself at how i treated this person. BUT........

 

i really NEVER thought that they would not "talk" to me and voice their concerns. but when i look back...when they DID try to say something from time to time, they got backlash from me and i over reacted and wasnt polite. sighs...very regretful here. i really did act like this. but i loved them very much and never wanted to hurt them. i was under EXTREME (i mean EXTREME) stress at the time. once again, i felt so out of control of my stressful circumstances and i tried to stay in control of this individual from afar. (the Long geographical distance).

 

they really always put themselves aside making me first, and were the one to apologize and work things out. so my stupid brain at the time never imagined they wouldn't continue to be like this. sighs again.

 

ok heres the thing though...when i said they would "work things out with me" i didn't mean that they SPOKE about their feelings. i mean they would say i am sorry and move forward with me. or they would say to me .."how can i make YOU happy"? but, they NEVER EVER told me what makes them happy and what THEY were unhappy with about me. they were quiet, introspective ...etc. they never wanted to stir the pot with me. now, i know this sounds like "woooooow... no wonder they couldn't talk to you" and yes, that is partially true. (i try to look at it from their point of view). but they had a problem too that i was profoundly unaware of at the time..

 

they were what is called passive aggressive. it is a REAL bonifided syndrome, whereas the person is passive and keeps everything in themselves, and then is aggressive in doing covert things behind your back to either get back at you ,or feel independent of you, or protect themselves.

 

but the point is there is little or mostly NO communication at all!!!!!. now, i am not saying your wife is this way , but look up stuff on passive aggressive people. (please)

 

YOU might, in her mind, be seen as a strict aggressive person, somewhat domineering. it could have overwhelmed her, and rather than her confronting you (AKA passive aggressive) , she wanted to avoid confrontation at all costs. she made up her mind to leave you. she did not want you to protest and have confrontation/retaliation (in her minds eye).

 

she also, likely at first felt like , you could possibly turn her around again, and that she would then be BACK in a very unhappy situation for her. so to not give you any opportunity to "discuss it". she walked away. now this doesn't mean it is you , as i first said. some people don't understand your concern about them and interpret it as control. but sometimes we do get way out of control and do become "controlling". i think it made very good common sense for her not to be in that room with asbestos. if she had a lung problem down the line from asbestofelioma she would know why you didnt want her there in the first place. sometimes our children are like this too. we want the best for them and they cant see its NOT about control, but love and care and safety. but maybe you needed news ways of expressing that and that is work. but love is work, its an action word. but she would have to work at seeing the ways you love her too.

 

there are ways to go about certain things and sometimes it does take the EXTRA mile to tenderly approach matters. people can only hear bad , hurtful dialog for so long. or ...whatever. i am sure you get the point here. i am sure you heard hurtful dialog too.

 

again, i recommend the book men are from mars woman are from venus. please please read this. its easy simple read. VERY INSIGHTFUL. men and woman are different in language and how we hear things and respond and it is key to know and understand this. and to learn language and communication is EVERYTHING in life.

 

aggressive and passive aggressive personalities are big clashers. plus you add on GIGS syndrome if you were her first love. (grass is greener on the other side syndrome, when they are young or never explored and now want to). there seem to be so many hurdles for the two of you here. and peace begins with understanding.

 

you can not revert back to the same behavior you both had, to save the 2 of you. also, she may have met someone at work which keeps a new "attraction" in her sights. i dont say she is having an affair but may have discovered she can actually be attracted to someone else. because your attraction was badly damaged from her vantage point. (not saying this was warranted at all) but please also, do not blame the other person. there is really a problem which lies within the 2 of you as a couple, with your individual needs and personalities. "marriage" does not mean "good marriage and relationship skills".

and that is what you both needed

 

i am going to leave you with some of these reads. only you can DISCOVER the truth about things. it is a discovery process. i know you want her back and that seems like imminent business. and it is. but you cant go back with the same blind folder on your eyes, same attitude towards things or bitterness in your heart. sadly, even if you're right...you cant blame now either...in the pursuit of reconciliation. it is not good to first blame in the pursuit of self discovery too.

 

i am going to say again, what she did , did suck!

 

also, you mentioned a sexual...coldness. the discomfort and lack of passion. you MUST also try to read mars and venus in bed. and discomfort is real. but i think too comfort is more plausible when there is trust (and youre not uptight) and the attraction for the other partner makes for easier entrance. the psyche helps the phycial issue of constriction. but make no mistake about it, there are REAL physical issues where men and woman are not physically compatible in bed too.

 

so heres the list...

 

1) men are from mars woman are from venus ---john gray

2) mars and venus in bed---john gray

3) passive aggressive behavior http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/passive-aggressive-behavior/AN01563

http://divorcesupport.about.com/od/abusiverelationships/a/Pass_Agg.htm

 

I am NOT saying your wife is passive aggressive at ALL. it could be as simple as she tried to tell you she has had enough and she wasn't happy and you weren't listening and she felt it would only fall on deaf and ears and for her to move forward somewhere else. hence read men are from mars and woman are from venus. read it anyway.

 

she finds you 2 incompatible. people can outgrow each other ..but it is no need to run until its becomes utterly unmanageable, dangerous, downright unhealthy whatever. i wish you too also had a pastor , common belief in a higher power together. did you? so many factors. but it was NOT right of her to throw all hand up and not communicate and try. that is devastating to you.

 

all i can say is read , learn and pray. the pain of shock, lost of best friend, and abandonment is very real. she obviously doesn't think you have the ability to change or she doesn't want to change. but it WILL absolutely take two. you have to work on you first and only and discover yourself fast. you have to discover you first and what when wrong on your part and what you were actually up against. start reading now. please.

 

everyday do something for yourself to build yourself up and i am not just talking about lifting weighs although that is good and you do need mediation time to see her point of view here too. but first learn about what you do and how the other feels. because you can ONLY control you. and good communication skills will be essential now and for the rest of your life. please read the first book. god bless you and good luck.

 

Ps i am still making mistakes in life and relationships but i CLEARLY know where i went wrong with HIM. (this particular person) and he was passive aggressive too . but i was wayyyyyyyy too aggressive.

[PollyIvy]

I hear that. My H is totally passive-aggressive. Now I am not ok with him, it's all my fault, but I still DON'T KNOW WHY.We are in the process of splitting up now. He can't wait to get away from me, because......? Still a mystery.

I am sorry that you are going through this. It's SO painful. And bewildering.

[IfiKnewThen]

yes pollyIvy and le corb. its is horrible not knowing.... and dealing with a passive aggressive person, who allowed so much to get all vent up and never said a word that would really give you a clue, they were for a long time, remotely this "done" with you.

[Le Corb]

Thanks for the replies, I really appreciate it.

 

It has been 2 months, now I can step back and look at the relationship from the outside.

 

She is seeing a counselor, which explains about the magically appearing "verbal abuse" issue, she also asked me to read the book, so I know why she left. Now she is considering everything I said as "verbal abuse", for instances "be careful on the road" as a form of control; When she asks my opinion for clothing is me controlling her appearance; "I am worried about you getting home late, go with a friend" as me saying no to things that she wanted to do. It seems like after reading the book she has rewritten the history of the relationship, whatever I said is now labeled as a form of controlling and abuse, even down to certain food and drinks that I don't like.

 

IfiKnewThen,

 

Thanks a lot for the "passive aggressive vs aggressive" analysis, it makes a lot of sense, she has never told me what makes her unhappy, she said she expected me to know without saying anything, since we have been together for 8 years, I should know. Now I look back she cannot take the slightest criticism, wherever there is hardship in life, no matter it is work, study or relationship related issues she would just simply give up, like how she left her previous job (she had serious arguments with her manager, I found out through a friend after she left me, she didn't even tell me, now she is saying I have been un-supportive during that period); she is now changing her study major again for the 4th time (she is blaming me for not completing any of her degrees); also when we have argument sometime she would just take off and run or drive away and leave me there in the middle of a conversation, no matter it is in public or at home. (sometimes it can be very small matters, such as which restaurant she wants to go, she would just start running in public when there is disagreement, often I had to run after her like a race, or call her mobile until she answers, the worst is when she waits until I get out of the car, then she would just lock the doors and drive off, the running happened many many times through out the 8 years)

 

She just expects me to read her mind all the time, she often gave me give the silent treatment and just walk away like I don't exist, I found myself apologizing to myself a lot of the time.

 

For instance with the asbestos problem, now when I asked her about it, she said everything I did was irrational, I was too sensitive and annoying, she often said "you just like to complain for the sake of it", "get over it", "don't be a girl", my concerns and perspectives about the issue were always dismissed as unnecessary. All I did was trying to protect her, and our future family, we were talking about having children a week before she left, we even decided on the names for a boy and girl...

 

I only wish I knew about passive aggressive personalities and verbal abuse earlier, indeed this has been a discovery process, I will definitely read the mars and venus book.

 

Another problem that I could think of is we were too close to each other, we shared many interests together, we did everything together, really everything, going to gallery openings, concerts, bookshops, libraries, we were never apart in our spare time. We lost ourselves as independent people, we knew each other too well, then with the renovation was no personal space, even the smallest conflict or disagreement in the relationship got manifested to a level that we both could not handle, so she had a mental breakdown of some kind.

 

I wish I could save this relationship, I know that the chance is pretty small, but I am willing to try everything, even after what happened I still love her.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Le Corb

[hydin]

Oh No... the book says never let the "abuser" read the book because they will deny all of it. You should just for fun or go to her website Patricia evans... note in the videos, no wedding rings... surprise..

 

It really says stuff like:

 

If you feel abandoned... you have been abandoned

 

She has a whole series that just feeds those who want an excuse to get out and take no blame...

 

If she says you "took her spirit..." she has quoted chapter two first paragraph... counselors like that line. Next comes.. I can't change.... nice way to avoid and be passive aggressive... I can't change.. but I sure the hell can change enough to file for divorce and abandon 3 kids...Best of luck.. going through similar stuff.. 180 is a must. Look at her from the outside and ask yourself if you want this new woman back. It is not the woman you married....If you keep moving toward her she will move away from you and continue to blame you. If you drop the rope and stop the chase she will have no one to blame when she lies in bed at night.. and guilt and loss comes into her mind. If you keep chasing.. all she does is say "see it is him" and goes to sleep.

 

I hope I can get back with my WW but I am getting on with life without her. It is seriously the only way to get her back..Trust what you see here. It does work... if you want it to.

[IfiKnewThen]

honestly she sounds a bit abusive from what you just wrote there. locking the door driving away.... running..

 

i mean none of us are perfect , we all react. tension can escalate but she sounds a bit out of control herself.

 

"get over it?" "dont be a girl"? i mean we all say things when we are mad....BUT this indicates to me (from hearing that) that she is verbally abusive herself.

 

she sounds very restless, and very angry.

[Downtown]

Le Corb, the behavior you are describing exhibits several strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Whether those traits are so strong as to meet the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD" is a determination only a professional can make. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot a strong occurence of such traits -- i.e., spot the red flags -- especially when you've been living with the woman for 8 years.

 

One of the BPD traits you mention is that she feels you have been very controlling in the marriage. A BPDer (person with strong BPD traits) has such a weak, unstable ego that she wants to be around a man with a strong personality to help "center" and "ground" her. Your W's weak self image is evident in your observation that "she cannot take the slightest criticism." This centering and grounding is sought after by a BPDer because, left to her own devices, she will become interested in a wide variety of hobbies and career pursuits -- most of which she will quickly lose interest in (as your W did with the four different course majors in college).

 

Yet, even though she benefits from being around a strong personality in that way, a BPDer nonetheless cannot tolerate very much of the intimacy in the relationship. During intimacy, she will feel like she is being controlled and suffocated. This feeling arises from her weak self image and her distorted perception of your intentions and motivations. It therefore is very common for a BPDer to claim that her husband is controlling her. Moreover, most BPDers are aggressive enough to push their husbands away by creating arguments out of thin air. Your W, however, gets relief from that feeling of engulfment by literally running away from you.

 

Another common BPD trait is the need to always think of herself as a victim -- which is why she will blame her H for every misfortune and will not take responsibility for her own actions. The vast majority of BPDers direct their anger outward in rages and temper tantrums that usually last about five hours. That type of aggressive "acting out," however, does not match your description of your W's behavior. Instead, you describe her as being passive aggressive (i.e., as "acting in"). Hence, I suggest that you read two short articles describing the "acting in" BPDers. They are called "quiet borderlines" (and also are called "waif borderlines").

 

The "quiet BPDers" make up only a small portion (perhaps 15-20%) of all BPDers. Unlike the majority, this smaller group direct their anger inward, showing their anger and hostility by being passive aggressive, by avoiding direct conflict, and by punishing you with silence and withdrawal. That is, they behave as your W did on the dozens of occasions she ran away from you when she could not get her way over the smallest thing (e.g., "choice of restaurant"). As you observed, "the running happened many many times through out the 8 years."

 

Significantly, this extreme abandonment behavior on her part -- to the point of even locking you out of the car and driving off -- suggests two BPD traits. One, as just discussed, is the use of passive-aggressive withdrawal to punish you. The other is the great fear of abandonment that all BPDers have.

 

That fear can grow over the years -- as it did with my exW -- to the point that the BPDer will preemptively abandon us to prevent us from doing it to them. (Another reason for their walking out is that BPDers are unhappy people and, as the years go by, they become increasingly resentful of our inability to make them happy -- an impossible task.)

 

As to the two articles about quiet BPDers, one is written by therapist Shari Schreiber and is available at http://www.gettinbetter.com/waif.html. Schreiber refers to them as "waif borderlines." The other article, by A.J. Mahari, is available at http://borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/07/borderline-pe-2.html.

 

I caution that your W cannot have a strong pattern of BPD traits if she is emotionally stable. I mention this because you have said nothing about her being emotionally UNSTABLE. If that instability exists, you would have noticed her flipping between adoring you for many days and then withdrawing all affection, giving you the cold shoulder and silent treatment. Moreover, that flip would not come on gradually (as in a mood change). Instead, it would occur in about 10 seconds, being triggered by some minor infraction or some innocent remark you made (e.g., picking the wrong restaurant).

 

This type of behavior is due to all-or-nothing thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone (including herself) as "all good" or "all bad." And, in 10 seconds, a BPDer can flip from one extreme view to its polar opposite. If your W has this black-white view of other people, it is unlikely she has any close long-term friends.

 

Finally, if you would like to see a brief overview of BPD traits on this forum, I suggest you read my two posts in Inigo's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2826453#post2826453. If you have any questions about this discussion, I would be glad to try to answer them. Take care, Le Corb.

[Le Corb]

I was afraid of her temper in the last a few months, sometimes she would come back home angry and pick a fight for no reason, other days she would be extremely nice, bring cakes and other pastries back etc. I thought it was because of the stress from the renovation and the asbestos problem.

 

Thank you Downtown, BPD explains the running business, she was doing that back when we were dating, I remember chasing after her around the streets, she was still doing that a few weeks before she left, once again locked me out of the car and drove away. I always considered it as her way of dealing with anger and stress. Never really looked into the problem.

 

Now I read a bit about BPD, it makes a lot of sense, how she always changes her goals in life, (from artist to curator, from librarian to data base administrator, now multimedia) and cannot take the slightest criticism. If she has BPD, its definitely "quiet borderlines", it seems like she kept everything to herself, and acted normal until it got built up to a critical point, it is all-or-nothing, she only has a coupe of long term friends. She sent me a text message the other day, saying that she knew that she would lose all of her friends from the past 8 years, but she still decided to leave and accepted the price that she needed to pay. Its very black and white.

 

We could never discuss issues that upset me, it was all dismissed and ignored as annoying, I would get comments like "you are being like a baby again", "don't be a wuss", or simply "annoying".

 

Now she even changed her appearance, wearing quite different things, when I met up with her last week, I walked right pass her and did not even recognize her.

 

I would be very interested to discuss more about BPD, or any other possible causes of the problem.

 

I hope to reconcile with her, I still don't know why, even after what she has done, all my friends think I am mad.

 

Is it possible to reconcile with someone who has BPD?

[robf1971]

Is it possible to reconcile with someone who has BPD?

 

Damn this BPD thing is just another excuse for adult bad behaviour. You are even using it to justify your wife's crap behaviour

[Downtown]

Damn this BPD thing is just another excuse for adult bad behaviour. You are even using it to justify your wife's crap behaviour

Rob, no, BPD is an explanation, not an excuse. And an explanation is exactly what Le Corb needs right now. Like me, he is a caregiver who will tolerate whatever abuse his W is dishing out in a futile attempt to help her. To us codependent caregivers, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema -- even when that is exactly what we should do. This is why the usual advice of "kick her to the curb" won't help guys like Le Corb and me. Instead, we have to convince ourselves -- at a gut level -- that we need not feel guilty about staying away from the loved one. Significantly, that convincing requires an explanation. A very compelling explanation.

 

Le Corb, I am glad to hear you found the information helpful. I felt it was important to bring to your attention because, with nearly all BPDers expressing their anger explicitly in rages, it is very difficult for the nonBPD partners ("Nons") to realize they are seeing BPD traits when dealing with a quiet, passive-aggressive BPDer. Indeed, it is even difficult for good therapists to spot a quiet BPDer -- a task made more difficult by the brief 50-minute weekly meetings and by the BPDer's skill at acting. I am headed off to work now but will respond to your questions tonight.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Downtown

[Chi townD]

I know you want to reconcile, but at this point, the time to protect yourself is now! Get a lawyer if you haven't aready. If she's asking for a stupid amount for support...ummm, no. She should only get what is allowable by the courts. Don't make this easy on her. She's been leaning on you for too long. She wants to be independant, she's going to find out how hard that can be.

[GreenPolicy]

Is it possible to reconcile with someone who has BPD?

 

You wouldn't want to unless she gets help for her issues through counseling. I second what others are saying about how this strongly reeks of BPD. While I wasn't married, I nearly got engaged to a woman that I suspect of having BPD traits. You can click on my username and read my story if you want. She abruptly left the relationship in the same manner yours did. She gave me the silent treatment as well. I know exactly how you feel and the insane level of hurt when somebody abandons you and refuses to take responsibility for their actions, and leaves you alone trying to figure out just what the hell happened.

 

It appears your ex has split you black. She may at some point split you white and attempt to recycle you. But you really do not want to reconcile without her getting some help. There is a website bpdfamily.com that is an excellent resource to learn more. To the best of my knowledge, there really isn't a cure for BPD. With certain therepeutic disciplines, they can learn to manage their emotions better and reign in their worst impulses to act out. So while they aren't cured, they learn to become better borderlines in a sense.

 

You can't force your ex to get the help she needs. In the meantime, take care of yourself as best as you can. Go to therapy, go to church, go to 12-step meetings, reconnect with your friends and family. You have a long journey ahead of you.

[Le Corb]

It has been 8 weeks and 3 days,

 

I just cannot stop thinking about her, all the good memories we had together, I cannot bring myself to fight a legal battle against someone I love... but my friends and family are saying that I just have to..

 

She told me that she made up her mind at the beginning of the year, and faked the relationship for 3 months until the renovation was finished, so the house can be put on the market, or if I want to stay here without selling the the house my family should buy her out... my psychologist said that she could have been thinking and planning about this for much longer than just 3 months, the hardest thing for me is tracing back all the memories, trying to think what was real, what was fake, when was the last good time we had together, its very painful..

 

After reading the Patricia Evans book, everything I said and everything I did became verbal abuse and controlling. We had arguments like all couples do, sometimes I did say hurtful things, like "I cannot stand you anymore", "get out of the house", "go back to the suburb where you came from", I get angry sometime when she just walks off like I don't exist, or drives off with the car and leaves me in nowhere, I regret these hurtful remarks. Now even comments like "drive carefully", "be careful on the train when you are coming home late" are labeled as controlling and verbal abuse by her.

 

She came from a semi-dysfunctional family in a not so good suburb, the father was never home, and he didn't (still doesn't) communicate with the kids emotionally, she was neglected in that front. She does have aspergers syndrome, it could have been repressing her feelings and instead she used other channels to express her frustration and anger. Her aspergers is very mild, I completely forgot about it for 8 years until now, she told me about it when we were dating, I didn't think much beyond her physical clumsiness and repetitive interests in the arts, which we both shared passion for. Now I wish I remembered it earlier.

 

I was critical of her from time to time, she took my advise and help as criticism, if she does have BPD, and passive aggressive personality disorder, plus aspergers, I can imagine how it might have affected her low self esteem, she may have taken some day to day things I said as criticism, such as "be careful on the road", to her it could mean, she is not good at driving etc. instead of a form of caring and love.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Le Corb

[GreenPolicy]

One of the best descriptions I've read of BPD is that they have no emotional skin at all and are like third-degree burn victims emotionally. So they take things to heart and internalize criticism and actions much more so than you or I would. What most normal, well-adjusted people would take as mildly critical they take as stakes to the heart. They idealize new lovers in the beginning and eventually devalue them once their partners fail to live up to that ideal in their mind and let them down. They are looking for external validation because of low self-esteem and can't get that validation from themselves. At some point the non BPD partner will fail to live up to that ideal and let them down. That's when the devaluing begins.

[Downtown]

She told me that she made up her mind at the beginning of the year, and faked the relationship for 3 months....the hardest thing for me is tracing back all the memories, trying to think what was real, what was fake,

Because a BPDer's perceptions are often distorted by her intense feelings, and because she will lie to avoid acknowledging a mistake when cornered, you would drive yourself crazy trying to separate the honest distortions from the lies. My view is that the vast majority of what you witnessed was genuine and true for her. That is, when she was splitting you white, she really did love and adore you -- in the immature way in which a young child is able to love. And, when she was splitting you black, she really only disliked or hated you, being completely out of touch with the good feelings she had toward you.

 

For the most part, her past statements and rationalizations seem fake not because they were but, rather, because they were so irrational. For a BPDer, an intense feeling is experienced as reality and she therefore fully believes it even though it makes no sense whatsoever. Remember, a BPDer relies only on the primitive emotional defenses of a young child. These defenses -- including denial, black-white thinking, projection, and magical thinking -- all work so well to protect her weak ego because they work at the subconscious level.

 

These defenses therefore allow her conscious mind to believe they are true. This means that, when she has a selfish thought about wanting to abuse you, she is able to fully escape the guilt and shame by projecting that thought onto you -- really believing that YOU are the one who is intending to be verbally abusive to her. My exW, for example, did projection so frequently that I could almost read her mind as to what she was intending to do by simply observing all the ridiculous things she was accusing me of.

I get angry sometime when she just walks off like I don't exist, or drives off with the car and leaves me in nowhere, I regret these hurtful remarks.

It was healthy for you to get angry. Indeed, that anger may have been the healthiest thing you managed to do. Men having stronger personal boundaries will get so angry that they walk away and find a woman who is emotionally mature. As the two articles explain, the passive-aggressive silent treatments and her repeated abandonments of you are a powerful form of emotional abuse -- which she dumped on you over and over again.

 

This is why, for the next year or two, righteous anger is your friend. It likely will be the only thing allowing you to protect yourself in the ugly divorce proceeding and the only thing keeping you from running back to her. You should think of anger, then, as a crutch you can use to walk to safety. Two years hence, when you are safe and no longer need it, you should kick that crutch aside.

Now even comments like "drive carefully", "be careful on the train when you are coming home late" are labeled as controlling and verbal abuse by her....everything I said and everything I did became verbal abuse and controlling.

As Rob correctly cautions, BPD is not an excuse for bad behavior. Hence, BPD traits did not automatically transform your comments into "verbal abuse" and "attempts to control." Rather, your W had choices to make every step of the way. So, if you two had a thousand minor arguments over the eight years, she had a thousand opportunities to step forward and take responsibility for her own actions instead of trying to blame everything on you.

 

She chose not to do so, making that choice a thousand times. And she chose not to seek therapy that could help her manage her emotions. Ultimately, she chose to become mean and vindictive against the very man who loved her the most. This is why you will often hear Nons complain that "BPDers would rather get even than get well."

She came from a semi-dysfunctional family in a not so good suburb, the father was never home, and he didn't (still doesn't) communicate with the kids emotionally, she was neglected in that front.

Most abused children do not develop strong BPD traits. Such abuse, however, GREATLY increases the risk for developing such traits. Indeed, a recent large scale study of BPDers found that 70% of them report that they were abused or abandoned in childhood.

She does have aspergers syndrome .... is very mild

So does my foster son. Because it is mild, he really only shows it in the way he sometimes has difficulty looking people in the eyes. When he is under stress, he often will look at a person's nose.

if she does have BPD, and passive aggressive personality disorder, plus aspergers, I can imagine how it might have affected her low self esteem, she may have taken some day to day things I said as criticism, such as "be careful on the road", to her it could mean, she is not good at driving etc. instead of a form of caring and love.

Yes, but as I noted above, she can make a thousand other choices. As long as you were willing to stay with her and do the soothing to calm her down -- and as long as you were willing to walk on eggshells -- she did not have to confront her issues and learn to manage them. This means that, if you take her back when she tires of living by herself, she will never be forced to learn how to do self soothing (like you learned to do in childhood).

And she will never have to learn how to better regulate her emotions. Nor will she have to learn how to intellectually challenge her intense feelings instead of accepting them as constituting "facts." Until you hold her fully accountable for her bad choices and bad behavior, she has no incentive to grow up and start behaving more maturely. This is why your enabling behavior can be harmful to her.

One of the best descriptions I've read of BPD is that they have no emotional skin at all and are like third-degree burn victims emotionally.

GP, your entire post is very insightful and that is an excellent analogy. It explains why codependent "Nons" like Le Corb and me create such toxic relationships when paired with a BPDer. As caregivers, we want to heal them by showing our love. Yet, trying to heal a BPDer by loving her is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her.

[IfiKnewThen]

she may or may not have this , i dont know ..but i can tell you this truly. woman hate to be analyzed. if you look at her like she is sick now....kiss your marriage goodbye even more and your chances. you still have to look at both of you. you can only change you, too

 

 

and i agree with this poster...who said "Damn this BPD thing is just another excuse for adult bad behaviour. You are even using it to justify your wife's crap behaviour".

 

just be aware...to read all things. even the books and stuff i recommended. your only real control is with you at the moment. this will be a discovery process...but right now you cant treat her like youre her shrink.

[IfiKnewThen]

ps @ downtown. i was intrigued to learn something about this disorder. it may be she has it..may not. but its an eye opener for anyone who may recognize this..thats for sure.

 

but i seriously caution him to play shrink with his wife. or judge in the respect, that he doesnt take something she may say now as valid in any way shape or form.

 

thats all my 2 cents

[IfiKnewThen]

me and my typos.

 

meant to say up there: but i seriously caution him not to play shrink with his wife.

[Le Corb]

Thanks IfiKnewThen,

 

I am no expert, nor do I have the professional knowledge to analyze what happened from a medical point of view. And most of all I certainly do not want to wrongly accuse my wife for something she may not even realize she has.

 

So far I have only been guessing, there was not much information in the letter that she left, and I have only spoke to her once in person after she left, instead of my anxiety now the official reason is I have been verbally abusing her after reading the Patricia Evans book.

 

"Downtown" thanks a lot for the detailed reply, I really appreciate it.

 

The running away and driving away behavior throughout of the years was certainly not normal, what you said about BDP does make sense, and brings some explainable to it, it is all black or white from her perspective, and how she has been keeping everything to herself quietly, and rewrote the relationship history, when I asked her about all the good memories we had, she answered "what good time?"

 

She does have a lot of childlike behavior, such as constant procrastination, time management issues, unable to fulfill any long-term goals, passive-aggressive silent treatments and her repeated abandonments of me during conversation or arguments.

 

I know my chances are quite slim, however I would like to try everything to reconcile with her. The past 8 weeks have been hell, I am trying to get my physical and mental health back, along with all the legal and financial matters, endless meetings with lawyers etc. How should I handle the situation? if she has BPD, what can I do for the time being in term of reconciliation?

Edited May 10, 2011 by Le Corb

[Downtown]

I seriously caution him not to play shrink with his wife.

I fully agree, IIKT. Only a professional can determine whether his W's BPD traits are so strong as to meet the diagnostic threshold for "having BPD."

I am no expert, nor do I have the professional knowledge to analyze what happened from a medical point of view. And most of all I certainly do not want to wrongly accuse my wife for something she may not even realize she has.

Le Corb, there is a world of difference between making a formal diagnosis and spotting the red flags, i.e., the strong behavioral traits. Before you even graduated from high school, you already could spot strong selfishness and grandiosity in a classmate -- without being able to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could easily spot the class drama queen -- without having to diagnose Histrionic PD. And you could recognize the extremely shy classmates -- without trying to diagnose Avoidant PD.

 

Likewise, you are perfectly capable of spotting a strong occurrence of BPD traits, especially if such traits have been occurring in a woman you've been living with for eight years. This is not rocket science. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about black-white thinking, emotional instability, inability to trust, inability to regulate emotions, low self esteem, fragile self image, and the refusal to accept responsibility for one's own actions. And it is not hard to know that her behavior is abnormal when she is repeatedly punishing you with icy silence, by suddenly running out of the room to avoid communication, and by driving away after locking all the car doors.

 

Waiting around for years and years to get a formal diagnosis is likely to be a disastrous course of action for any nonBPD spouse living with a BPDer (a person with strong BPD traits). One reason is that the vast majority of high functioning BPDers refuse to seek therapy to obtain a diagnosis. A second reason is that, even when they agree to do so, they usually play mind games for months until the therapist finally catches on, at which time they immediately quit.

 

A third reason is that, in the very unlikely event a BPDer seeks therapy and stays long enough for the therapist to make a correct diagnosis, it is unlikely the therapist will tell the client, much less her husband. The T knows that, on hearing such a dreaded diagnosis, the BPDer client almost certainly will quit therapy. The T also knows that, because insurance companies (mistakenly) regard BPD as untreatable, they rarely will cover such treatments.

 

This is why it is common for therapists to instead list the "diagnosis" as one of the accompanying conditions such as PTSD, bipolar, depression, or anxiety -- all of which are covered by insurance. Moreover, therapists are loath to put such a diagnosis in a client's permanent health records for fear it will adversely impact their current or future employment opportunities. Also, the therapists hate the notion of being dragged into a nasty divorce proceeding where they are forced to testify against their own clients.

When I asked her about all the good memories we had, she answered "what good time?"

With a BPDer, it is impossible to build up a store of good will -- or, as you say, a store of "good memories" -- because she is unable to regulate her emotions. This deficiency results in her mind being continually flooded with intense feelings that -- due to her immaturity -- she accepts as "facts" and "reality." Hence, a BPDer's reality is whatever intense feeling she is in touch with at the moment. Because her decisions and judgment are so often based solely on these irrational feelings, she has no logical basis for justifying her decisions when you challenge them. This is why, when you push for an explanation, you often will get an absurb rationalization -- or, more often, no answer at all when you see her running from the room.

 

And this is why she cannot appreciate the many sacrifices you have made on her behalf. Your efforts to build up trust and a store of good will -- to tide the two of you over during the bad times -- was in vain. Trying to build up a store of good will with a BPDer makes as much sense as constructing an elaborate sand castle beside the ocean. It will all be washed aside by the next intense feeling surging through her mind. The result is that, with a BPDer, it's always "what have you done for me lately."

The past 8 weeks have been hell, I am trying to get my physical and mental health back

As I explained in the other thread, BPD is the only one of ten PDs having the reputation of making the nonBPD partners and spouses feel like they are losing their minds. If you were married to a narcissist or sociopath, you would feel miserable and your self esteem would be nearly destroyed. But you wouldn't feel like you are going crazy.

How should I handle the situation? if she has BPD, what can I do for the time being in term of reconciliation?

First, I suggest that you get professional guidance by going to at least a few sessions with a clinical psychologist by yourself -- WITHOUT your W. In her absence, he will not be able to render an official diagnosis. Yet, he is far more likely to speak candidly to you. Based on what you tell him, he likely will say "it sounds to me like she may be suffering from ...." And, because therapists usually charge on a sliding scale reflecting your income, the visits need not be too expensive. Of course, as in any profession, the skill set varies greatly among individual psychologists. I therefore suggest your getting a recommendation from a trusted doctor.

 

Alternatively, you could call the psych ward of a large local hospital and ask to speak to the head nurse on duty and ask for a recommendation for a clinical psychologist highly trained in treating BPD. Any therapist trained in treating BPD will also be expert in advising you about your likely codependence traits. Another option is to call the psych department of a local university (but you are more likely to learn of a good clinical psychologist by calling the hospital, IMO).

 

Second, I suggest that you take GreenPolicy's advice on participating (or, at least, lurking) at BPDfamily.com. It is the largest and most active BPD site targeted solely to the nonBPD partners like you and me. Indeed, it is so large that it has a dozen different message boards, three of which should be of great interest to you. They are the "Staying," "Undecided," and "Leaving" boards. At each of those boards, you can read the stories of hundreds of folks -- mostly guys like you -- who have dealt with situations similar to yours. And at each board you will find a dozen guys willing to step forward to answer your questions. But don't forget about us here at LoveShack. We will be glad to be supportive as long as you find our comments helpful.

 

Third, if your W ever stops splitting you black, I suggest you encourage her to seek individual therapy from a clinical psychologist. If you believe her BPD traits are strong, she likely has damage to her emotional core that takes several years to learn to manage -- but requires guidance from a specialized professional. Most psychologists do not have sufficient training for that and therefore usually refer such clients to a colleague who does. Until a BPDer addresses this underlying core damage, a marriage counselor would likely be a waste of time (unless, of course, you believe her BPD traits are not very strong).

 

Moreover, when urging your W to seek therapy, I suggest you discuss her need for treatment without mentioning BPD specifically. If you tell her your suspicions about "BPD traits," she almost certainly will not want to hear it and -- to protect her fragile ego -- will simply project the accusation back onto you. That is, she will be convinced you are the one having strong BPD traits. Of course, I knew that when my exW and I separated five years ago. But, being the codependent caregiver I am, I decided to tell her anyway -- and gave her a book on it too. The result is that, for the past five years, she's believed that I am the one suffering from BPD.

 

Fourth, I suggest you make a concerted effort -- ideally, starting with your own clinical psychologist -- to build up stronger personal boundaries so that, never again, will you walk on eggshells like you have been doing for the past 8 years. Instead of chasing cars you were locked out of, you should return to acting like your "old self," which likely will quickly return now that you are not living with a BPDer.

 

Toward that end, it likely would be helpful to read Codependent No More. Most websites on this issue of codependency, however, cannot be trusted because there is no generally accepted definition of what it is. The definition is lacking because the diagnostic manual (DSM-IV) does not list it as a "disorder" and thus does not define it. A substantial share of the APA members do not consider it to be a mental disorder. This is why there are no plans to include it in the revised manual scheduled for release in 2013.

[Le Corb]

Thanks a lot for the detailed analysis Downtown.

 

At the moment she seems to only remember the bad memories, such as she was bringing up one time she tried on this pair pants at a clothing store, she asked for my opinion, I said it doesn't look good on you, but if you really like it you should buy it. After reading the Patricia Evans book, now she is saying that it was me controlling her appearance and verbally abusing her. We bought I don't know how many pairs of pants for her over the 8 years, she could choose whatever she liked, and often she bought clothes for herself, now she is saying that she could not buy anything that I didn't like. It was more like 1 or 2 out of 50.

 

At the moment she is talking about all these smallest things, things that I forgot long time ago, for instance one of her friends called up once, she was canceling a dinner arrangement because she was broke that month, my wife told me that if her friend calls just tell her that we will pay for her dinner, and I did, but the friend did not end up meeting up with us, now she is saying that it was because of I did not tell her friend that we were going to pay for dinner, that was why her friend canceled... of course now it is me controlling her and not letting her to see her friend.

 

At the moment, it seems like she has completely rewritten the history of the relationship to the smallest details, and reviewing the past out of context. I have no idea what to do or how to respond. She has arranged for mediation next month to talk about property settlement, she knows that I need a place to live, so she is demanding my family to pay her out straight away (transferring six figures into her account), she only contributed $12,000 to the purchase of the house, last week she asked her lawyer to send a financial settlement proposal to my parents...

 

Whenever I speak to her now (and her mother) they are just blaming me for everything, how controlling and manipulative I have been, and her daughter deserves all this money, so I can save the good memories from the past, then my future relationships will not be over shadowed, as long as I agree on paying the amount she is asking for. Also my mother in law is saying that it was my fault that my mother was in hospital being treated for shock after hearing the news, my grandfather had a heart attack, he had an emergency heart operation, now under intensive care, "because of what I did".

 

My wife is not even agreeing on going to marriage counseling, I do not know how I can talk her into BPD treatments, I can only imagine that she will be screaming at me over the phone again, if I mention something like BPD.

 

I feel so helpless at the moment, when I look back it was like walking on eggshells in the past a few years. I still miss her a lot...

Edited May 11, 2011 by Le Corb

[marqueemoon4]

expect her to do all the standard WAW things-- blame everything on you, take no responsibility whatsoever, rewrite history, make outlandish accusations about your character etc, ANYTHING to justify their selfish, heartless decision.

[Le Corb]

Is it possible to reconcile with a WAW?

[Mauschen]

Le Corb,

 

First of all, do NOT pay her what she is asking for unless a judge tells you that you have to. Use the legal system and lawyers to deal with this and do not give in to her bullying. I know you love her and want to please her, but don't do it. You will regret it. She left you, and unfortunately divorce and settlements take time. Why in the world is she involving your parents? Your parents should not be involved in this situation at all. Very rude of her.

 

Secondly, I know your life sucks right now, but why would you want someone who has treated you this way back? Of course I know because I have been there myself, but life will get better and you will heal. Right now your dreams are shattered - you were looking forward to having a family in your newly renovated home. But moving forward with someone like your W? Wouldn't you always be in fear that she'd do this to you again? And what if it were to happen after you had a child? What a complete mess (I know from experience)!

[2.50 a gallon]

Le Corb

 

I call it the Book Of Bad. Some women, and possibly men, gather every time that they suffered hurt feelings and put them in a book, with date time and location, and never forget.

 

The problem is that they never say anything at the time it happened, so you don't have a clue, and never had a chance to work things out.

 

Years later they bring up the book and page number, along with date, time and location and you haven't a clue what they are talking about. You have no defence.

 

One that I can recall, I complimented my gal that I had been dating for several years, that she looked great, as we were going out. Her replay was "don't I always look great?"

 

From there it went down hill, to the time I laughed at her when she was covered in mud. That time was her company's picnic and she was in a 3-legged race and the two of them tumbled into a muddy patch. Truthfully it was hilarious, and everybody laughed. But two years later she was holding it against me that I too had laughed

 

Honestly why would you want to save you marriage. Do you want to live with this for the rest of your life?

 

Trust me you will find love again. And this time it will be so much better.