Speaking of strip clubs... (Q for other women)

[Entropy3000]

http://www.curiousread.com/2009/03/what-turns-women-on.html

 

This has always been one of my favorite article dealing with female arousal.

 

I initially got it from a much better source then the cheesy website it is on now and downloaded in to my computer.

 

I just googled the words to bring up where it might be and this was the first viable link. Enjoy.

 

I took the time and found this worth the read.

 

Many good points.

 

“Really, women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic,’’ she said. It is dominated by the yearning to be the object of erotic admiration and sexual need. ... women’s erotic fantasies centre less on giving pleasure and more on getting it. “When it comes to desire,” she added, “women may be far less relational than men.”

 

"The problem was how to augment desire, and despite prevailing wisdom, the answer has, she said, “little to do with building better relationships”, with fostering communication between patients and their partners. She rolled her eyes at such niceties. She recalled a patient whose lover was thoroughly empathetic and who asked frequently during lovemaking: “Is this okay?” ... “It was very unarousing to her. It was loving, but there was no oomph,” no urgency emanating from the man, no sign that his craving for her was beyond control."

 

"On the one hand there is the drive of sheer lust; and on the other there is the impetus of value. For evolutionary and cultural reasons, she believes women might set a high value on the closeness and longevity of relationships: “But it’s wrong to think that because relationships are what women choose, they’re the primary source of women’s desire.”

 

"And within a committed relationship, the crucial stimulus of being desired decreases considerably, not only because the woman’s partner loses a degree of interest but also, more importantly, because the woman feels that her partner is trapped, that a choice — the choosing of her — is no longer being carried out."

 

“Women want to be thrown up against a wall but not truly endangered,”

 

"What I can tell you about women and what turns them on is that it’s very varied."

 

 

Great stuff.

[snug.bunny]

I took the time and found this worth the read.

 

Many good points.

 

“Really, women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic,’’ she said. It is dominated by the yearning to be the object of erotic admiration and sexual need. ... women’s erotic fantasies centre less on giving pleasure and more on getting it. “When it comes to desire,” she added, “women may be far less relational than men.”

 

"The problem was how to augment desire, and despite prevailing wisdom, the answer has, she said, “little to do with building better relationships”, with fostering communication between patients and their partners. She rolled her eyes at such niceties. She recalled a patient whose lover was thoroughly empathetic and who asked frequently during lovemaking: “Is this okay?” ... “It was very unarousing to her. It was loving, but there was no oomph,” no urgency emanating from the man, no sign that his craving for her was beyond control."

 

"On the one hand there is the drive of sheer lust; and on the other there is the impetus of value. For evolutionary and cultural reasons, she believes women might set a high value on the closeness and longevity of relationships: “But it’s wrong to think that because relationships are what women choose, they’re the primary source of women’s desire.”

 

"And within a committed relationship, the crucial stimulus of being desired decreases considerably, not only because the woman’s partner loses a degree of interest but also, more importantly, because the woman feels that her partner is trapped, that a choice — the choosing of her — is no longer being carried out."

 

“Women want to be thrown up against a wall but not truly endangered,”

 

"What I can tell you about women and what turns them on is that it’s very varied."

 

 

Great stuff.

 

I disagree, that "women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic", in the context of an intimate relationship from a sexual standpoint.

 

Consider this.....It is the MAN who ultimately wants to pleasure a woman, as his main goal, primarily to bring her to orgasm, which in turn feeds HIS ego. Another example, would be male's preoccupation with his penis size.

 

Most women, want to connect emotionally with their partner sexually...

 

That is not to say, that women don't enjoy being "thrown up against a wall", but I do not think that is a regular scenario they envision with their partner, but rather, an occasional desire/want (depending on her mood). She may also at times desire to be the one to bring her male partner pleasure, perhaps when she is feeling more primal and lustful and sexually confident.

 

Also consider, that the male frequency of "fantasy" thoughts are greater in number and are anatomically based whereas for a female, it is focused primarily more on the emotional feelings of a romantic encounter.

 

Another difference, is this:

 

If a stranger beautiful woman, were to approach a man, and place her hand on his body.......chances are, he will gain an erection.

 

That is not the case for a female, as she will be more than likely to slap the man's face.

[Entropy3000]

I disagree, that "women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic", in the context of an intimate relationship from a sexual standpoint.

 

Consider this.....It is the MAN who ultimately wants to pleasure a woman, as his main goal, primarily to bring her to orgasm, which in turn feeds HIS ego. Another example, would be male's preoccupation with his penis size.

 

Most women, want to connect emotionally with their partner sexually...

 

That is not to say, that women don't enjoy being "thrown up against a wall", but I do not think that is a regular scenario they envision with their partner, but rather, an occasional desire/want (depending on her mood). She may also at times desire to be the one to bring her male partner pleasure, perhaps when she is feeling more primal and lustful and sexually confident.

 

Also consider, that the male frequency of "fantasy" thoughts are greater in number and are anatomically based whereas for a female, it is focused primarily more on the emotional feelings of a romantic encounter.

 

Another difference, is this:

 

If a stranger beautiful woman, were to approach a man, and place her hand on his body.......chances are, he will gain an erection.

 

That is not the case for a female, as she will be more than likely to slap the man's face.

 

Things in life can be complex. Seemingly contradictory things can co-exist.

It depends. I found the article informative. It explains much to me on why some women wiliingly put themselves in situations that others might consider risky.

 

"If a stranger beautiful woman, were to approach a man, and place her hand on his body.......chances are, he will gain an erection." Guilty. BUT where it goes from there matters. The initial reaction is more instinctive.

 

"Consider this.....It is the MAN who ultimately wants to pleasure a woman, as his main goal, primarily to bring her to orgasm, which in turn feeds HIS ego." Guilty. But few things happen for only one reason. It is not just ego. It depends on the context.

 

"Another example, would be male's preoccupation with his penis size."

Sure but if we did not think it mattered to women we would not care.

Per the article if one is looking for an urgent reaction from the male it can be more evident with the greater um ... presentation. Anyway, given the choice I suspect "all else equal" most women would choose the V8 vs. the V6.

 

"That is not the case for a female, as she will be more than likely to slap the man's face. :lmao:" Probably but the dynamics are different. Context matters. YMMV.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Entropy3000

[starryeyed12]

I took the time and found this worth the read.

 

Many good points.

 

“Really, women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic,’’ she said. It is dominated by the yearning to be the object of erotic admiration and sexual need. ... women’s erotic fantasies centre less on giving pleasure and more on getting it. “When it comes to desire,” she added, “women may be far less relational than men.”

 

"The problem was how to augment desire, and despite prevailing wisdom, the answer has, she said, “little to do with building better relationships”, with fostering communication between patients and their partners. She rolled her eyes at such niceties. She recalled a patient whose lover was thoroughly empathetic and who asked frequently during lovemaking: “Is this okay?” ... “It was very unarousing to her. It was loving, but there was no oomph,” no urgency emanating from the man, no sign that his craving for her was beyond control."

 

"On the one hand there is the drive of sheer lust; and on the other there is the impetus of value. For evolutionary and cultural reasons, she believes women might set a high value on the closeness and longevity of relationships: “But it’s wrong to think that because relationships are what women choose, they’re the primary source of women’s desire.”

 

"And within a committed relationship, the crucial stimulus of being desired decreases considerably, not only because the woman’s partner loses a degree of interest but also, more importantly, because the woman feels that her partner is trapped, that a choice — the choosing of her — is no longer being carried out."

 

“Women want to be thrown up against a wall but not truly endangered,”

 

"What I can tell you about women and what turns them on is that it’s very varied."

 

 

Great stuff.

 

I guess I can't speak for all, but if I was being totally honest with myself....this would be true for me more often that not.

 

The best sex I've had in my life has been with men who made me feel like I was the sole object of their sexual admiration in that moment. Nothing can beat that feeling of being totally and unabashedly desired. When it's paired with a loving partner who at the end of the day you know you have a great relationship with, its amazing.

 

However, I very much like being able give pleasure as well. It's a turn on for me too.

[snug.bunny]

Things in life can be complex. Seemingly contradictory things can co-exist.

 

Very true, when we consider that life does seem to be one big Paradox.

 

It depends. I found the article informative. It explains much to me on why some women wiliingly put themselves in situations that others might consider risky.

There were certainly informative points. In terms of riskiness, there are women who act out in extreme measures, women who fall under "non-extreme", and then there are those who fall somewhere in between.

 

"If a stranger beautiful woman, were to approach a man, and place her hand on his body.......chances are, he will gain an erection."

 

Guilty. BUT where it goes from there matters. The initial reaction is more instinctive.

True, but that is case for everyone, male or female (i.e. "where it goes").

 

The "initial reaction", is more "instinctive" for a male versus a female, since it is an automatic response to a visual and thus touch. Whereas for a female, there needs to be other elements involved, for it to be instinctual and for it to reach a level for which she is "responsive".

 

"Consider this.....It is the MAN who ultimately wants to pleasure a woman, as his main goal, primarily to bring her to orgasm, which in turn feeds HIS ego."

 

Guilty. But few things happen for only one reason. It is not just ego. It depends on the context.

Agreed.

 

"Another example, would be male's preoccupation with his penis size."

 

Sure but if we did not think it mattered to women we would not care.

Per the article if one is looking for an urgent reaction from the male it can be more evident with the greater um ... presentation. Anyway, given the choice I suspect "all else equal" most women would choose the V8 vs. the V6.

Not necessarily (choice of the V8 versus the V6).

 

"That is not the case for a female, as she will be more than likely to slap the man's face. :lmao:"

 

Probably but the dynamics are different. Context matters. YMMV.

Agreed, which ties into what I said above (i.e. "other elements involved").

[dreamingoftigers]

I took the time and found this worth the read.

 

Many good points.

 

“Really, women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic,’’ she said. It is dominated by the yearning to be the object of erotic admiration and sexual need. ... women’s erotic fantasies centre less on giving pleasure and more on getting it. “When it comes to desire,” she added, “women may be far less relational than men.”

 

"The problem was how to augment desire, and despite prevailing wisdom, the answer has, she said, “little to do with building better relationships”, with fostering communication between patients and their partners. She rolled her eyes at such niceties. She recalled a patient whose lover was thoroughly empathetic and who asked frequently during lovemaking: “Is this okay?” ... “It was very unarousing to her. It was loving, but there was no oomph,” no urgency emanating from the man, no sign that his craving for her was beyond control."

 

"On the one hand there is the drive of sheer lust; and on the other there is the impetus of value. For evolutionary and cultural reasons, she believes women might set a high value on the closeness and longevity of relationships: “But it’s wrong to think that because relationships are what women choose, they’re the primary source of women’s desire.”

 

"And within a committed relationship, the crucial stimulus of being desired decreases considerably, not only because the woman’s partner loses a degree of interest but also, more importantly, because the woman feels that her partner is trapped, that a choice — the choosing of her — is no longer being carried out."

 

“Women want to be thrown up against a wall but not truly endangered,”

 

"What I can tell you about women and what turns them on is that it’s very varied."

 

 

Great stuff.

 

Yes I found this to be brilliant and a great representative of female sexuality in general.

 

I gave the article to my husband to review. He ignored me and used it to try to pick up other girls. That was incredibly damaging.

 

Nonetheless, solid stuff.

[dreamingoftigers]

I disagree, that "women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic", in the context of an intimate relationship from a sexual standpoint.

 

Consider this.....It is the MAN who ultimately wants to pleasure a woman, as his main goal, primarily to bring her to orgasm, which in turn feeds HIS ego. Another example, would be male's preoccupation with his penis size.

 

Most women, want to connect emotionally with their partner sexually...

 

That is not to say, that women don't enjoy being "thrown up against a wall", but I do not think that is a regular scenario they envision with their partner, but rather, an occasional desire/want (depending on her mood). She may also at times desire to be the one to bring her male partner pleasure, perhaps when she is feeling more primal and lustful and sexually confident.

 

Also consider, that the male frequency of "fantasy" thoughts are greater in number and are anatomically based whereas for a female, it is focused primarily more on the emotional feelings of a romantic encounter.

 

Another difference, is this:

 

If a stranger beautiful woman, were to approach a man, and place her hand on his body.......chances are, he will gain an erection.

 

That is not the case for a female, as she will be more than likely to slap the man's face.

 

Did you read the article for context of that sentence?

[pyroguy]

I guess I can't speak for all, but if I was being totally honest with myself....this would be true for me more often that not.

 

The best sex I've had in my life has been with men who made me feel like I was the sole object of their sexual admiration in that moment. Nothing can beat that feeling of being totally and unabashedly desired. When it's paired with a loving partner who at the end of the day you know you have a great relationship with, its amazing.

 

However, I very much like being able give pleasure as well. It's a turn on for me too.

[xxoo]

The best sex I've had in my life has been with men who made me feel like I was the sole object of their sexual admiration in that moment. Nothing can beat that feeling of being totally and unabashedly desired. When it's paired with a loving partner who at the end of the day you know you have a great relationship with, its amazing.

 

However, I very much like being able give pleasure as well. It's a turn on for me too.

 

I concur

 

This may be why I can not imagine a "strip club" scenario that sounds appealing to me. If I have to pay, that takes away 90% of the pleasure. If he doesn't desire me, it doesn't really matter what he looks like, or what he does!

 

 

I guess it's somewhat off topic, but If I was honest too, that would be true for me as well, albeit with a woman:)

 

It does introduce one of the biggest social double standards never talked about, but it does speak to some of my earlier posts. Tons of women have the exact sentiment that you explain, but they are very content to give their SO the crumbs of desire, especially husbands. Like I have said, the men will be called insecure when their wives just "give them sex", or when she lusts for all the other guys who have no role in her life. Or, like one other poster listed here, the ladies waiting for the UPS guy, or jamming the copier so the repair guy can come and all the girls can lust for him.

 

Harmless fun? yea, maybe, and that's what we are conditioned to belive. However, do men not have the right to be desired too? sadly, we here all these women talk about not being desired by their husband. Their stories may be true, but how many can truly say they show their husband the same? not many from what I personally witness.

 

I hear you, and I agree that it is very important to put your partner first. Partners should build each other up, and foster each other's self confidence. After all, confidence is sexy! If you tear down your partner's confidence, you are making it more difficult for your partner to be a great lover for you. Not smart at all.

 

That said, I also believe that lusting over the "UPS man" (or whoever) can be harmless fun. My relationship has some of that "play", where H and I share our attractions to others. But it is mutual fun, and does not take away from our confidence or desire for each other. That UPS man can NEVER compare to my man!

[snug.bunny]

Did you read the article for context of that sentence?

 

A "women’s desire is not relational, it’s narcissistic", in the context of an intimate relationship from a sexual standpoint. It is dominated by the yearning to be the object of erotic admiration and sexual need.

Hi DOT, yes....I have. I'm just not sure the term "narcissistic" is an accurate word to describe a woman's desire of wanting to be desired. I think both men and women, want to be desired, by their partner - and I don't think that necessarily makes them "narcissistic".

 

What do you think?

[dreamingoftigers]

I think that narcissistic is kind of a heavy word. What they were trying to get across was not that the person's sexuality has them being kind of narcissistic but that rather the female desire is to be pit in the center and singularly desired above others. Men typically don't get this.

[Entropy3000]

 

I guess it's somewhat off topic, but If I was honest too, that would be true for me as well, albeit with a woman:)

 

It does introduce one of the biggest social double standards never talked about, but it does speak to some of my earlier posts. Tons of women have the exact sentiment that you explain, but they are very content to give their SO the crumbs of desire, especially husbands. Like I have said, the men will be called insecure when their wives just "give them sex", or when she lusts for all the other guys who have no role in her life. Or, like one other poster listed here, the ladies waiting for the UPS guy, or jamming the copier so the repair guy can come and all the girls can lust for him.

 

[b]Harmless fun? yea, maybe, and that's what we are conditioned to belive. However, do men not have the right to be desired too? sadly, we here all these women talk about not being desired by their husband. Their stories may be true, but how many can truly say they show their husband the same? not many from what I personally witness.[/b]

 

My wife and I some years back looked into the "His Needs, Her Needs" stuff. Not pushing that agenda but I found it very enlightening as well. Men and Woman have the same needs if you were to list them out. BUT and this relates I think directly to what is being discussed here, they are most often in a very different order of priority. AND how that need is actually met may very well be different for a Man vs. a Woman.

 

To the given individual the meeting of the need and the how seems to be a no brainer ... but because the genders have different perspectives ( Mars, Venus, freaking Pluto ) the messages often cross and don't line up. The agenda with HNHN is about meeting your partners needs so they are not vulnerable to an affair ... let alone just being a loving caring partner trying to optimize your life with them. Again not pushing that agenda but it is why I am even posting here. Knowledge is power. I mean this in a positive way. Your partner can only communicate so much. We have to factor into in to it that they do care for us. Soooooo, they may not wish to convey some information they fear we will process in the wrong way. I am a man. I need my SO to desire me. We concede a healthy general desire in the opposite sex. Fanatasy is one thing. Acting it out can be another.

Knowing what women desire and in what context is important.

 

I do care about what women desire and how they think. It does matter most to me what my wife in particular desires and thinks. So that in mind though and understanding that women vary in their desires anything I can glean from this stuff the better I am in position to learn from it. Men in my situation ( and Women too ), have made a tremendous investment in our relationships. We are out slaying dragons and so on. We have our own needs and priorities.

 

One thing I am seeing from both genders is that what one might call harmless fun or a bit of fun is not always seen in the same light by the SO.

There is single behavior and the varying degrees of coupled behavior. Not the discussion I know.

 

I avoid female strip clubs and I am being totally honest here because whatever small enjoyment I may or may not get from it is not worth either the disrespect I know it would show my wife nor the risk it might pose in putting myself in a vulnerable position. So I choose while thinking above the waste to not put myself at risk when I am thinking below it. It is a slippery slope. Playing "just the tip" is dangerous. Not about trust. I would not want a bit of "harmless fun" to cause hurt to my SO let alone put myself in a position where betrayal can happen and be blamed with being a mistake or on alchohol. I can have my male companionship outside of a strip club. In a vaccum, yes I enjoy seeing nude females. Life is full of choices.

 

Therefore most us men don't have an issue with our wives having reciprocal feelings. Some of us assume that if a wife goes to a male revue that it is probably like a "typical" strip club. Or a stage thing only.

Harmless fun. But because we are wired differently what appeals specifically to women and what is available in these "shows" changes the whole dynamic. So some of us guys are amazed at what some women are willing to do at these shows. No doubt others still have the desire to at least fanatasize about it. As long as there is not an obsession about it, it is probably hamless fun. In the spirit of this thread, do many women really want to act on the touching part? Single or attached may make a difference in the answer." In my relationship this would be a deal breaker. No gaslighting please about insecruities. It is about resepct and individual needs. It is about a balance. I expect, no require respect back. I care about what or who might be the "enemy at the gate". Hmmmm, how freudian? Maybe more like Darwin.

 

As it relates to the article about what women desire these male shows seem to be trying to address some of them. The men showing the women attention, showing arousal ( V8, V10, V12 ), acting out of control and in general doing the bums rush which lifts the burden from the women. She is not acting out. She is the one being the object of desire. She is only accepting the uncontrolled desire of the male. She is being pushed up against the wall and ravaged. So the visual is one thing. The rubbing of oil over a young hunk is playing "just the tip". Even if there were a reluctance, he assists by directing this effort. Again showing lack of control and being lost in the moment. On and on. Whip cream, hj, bj, wedding rings offstage activities. BTW the ring makes the women a target. You can spin that any way you like. She would be seen as being vulnerable and a prize. There could be the after party at the bar .... If this is a private party in a home then we are really talking ...

 

Again fantasy is one thing and acting out another. BUT, my real point is of all this what do women really desire? Most fantasies are never meant to act out. That goes back to the "rape" scenario in the article.

 

To this end maybe I should ask :

 

1) What do women desire in fantasy

2) What do women desire in reality

 

I can see the above being different for sure. I don't think it can be explained away with repression.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Entropy3000

[starryeyed12]

 

I guess it's somewhat off topic, but If I was honest too, that would be true for me as well, albeit with a woman:)

 

It does introduce one of the biggest social double standards never talked about, but it does speak to some of my earlier posts.[b] Tons of women have the exact sentiment that you explain, but they are very content to give their SO the crumbs of desire, especially husbands. Like I have said, the men will be called insecure when their wives just "give them sex", or when she lusts for all the other guys who have no role in her life. Or, like one other poster listed here, the ladies waiting for the UPS guy, or jamming the copier so the repair guy can come and all the girls can lust for him. [/b]

 

Harmless fun? yea, maybe, and that's what we are conditioned to belive. However, do men not have the right to be desired too? sadly, we here all these women talk about not being desired by their husband. Their stories may be true, but how many can truly say they show their husband the same? not many from what I personally witness.

 

Hm. You bring up an interesting point, however, it seems much more complex than that of a social double standard.

 

I think a woman in a marriage who is content on throwing crumbs of desire to her husband does not sound like she is in a very content marriage. Something deeper is causing this behavior. Maybe dissatisfaction, maybe built up resentment, it's hard to say. But I think when you're in a relationship where one partner, male or female, is throwing crumbs it is a red flag that something is out of balance. In that scenario, the fantasizing about the UPS man or lusting after the handsome doctor could very well be something to be insecure about.

 

It's when someone is throwing crumbs--possibly harboring resentment, dissatisfaction, etc.-- that he/she seems to be more vulnerable to an affair or other issues. In that case maybe the feeling of insecurity could really be your instincts kicking in, saying 'hey, I don't like this...something is not right about this and it makes me feel uncomfortable/undesired.'

 

The scenario that xxoo is speaking of is entirely different. That is harmless and playful because both SOs KNOW that their love and respect for one another is strongly rooted, and there's a comfort in that bond of trust. Playfulness is just playfulness, which can add spice to the marriage. This can only be harmless when both partners are on the same page.

[starryeyed12]

My wife and I some years back looked into the "His Needs, Her Needs" stuff. Not pushing that agenda but I found it very enlightening as well. Men and Woman have the same needs if you were to list them out. BUT and this relates I think directly to what is being discussed here, they are most often in a very different order of priority. AND how that need is actually met may very well be different for a Man vs. a Woman.

 

To the given individual the meeting of the need and the how seems to be a no brainer ... but because the genders have different perspectives ( Mars, Venus, freaking Pluto ) the messages often cross and don't line up. The agenda with HNHN is about meeting your partners needs so they are not vulnerable to an affair ... let alone just being a loving caring partner trying to optimize your life with them. Again not pushing that agenda but it is why I am even posting here. Knowledge is power. I mean this in a positive way. Your partner can only communicate so much. We have to factor into in to it that they do care for us. Soooooo, they may not wish to convey some information they fear we will process in the wrong way. I am a man. I need my SO to desire me. We concede a healthy general desire in the opposite sex. Fanatasy is one thing. Acting it out can be another.

Knowing what women desire and in what context is important.

 

I do care about what women desire and how they think. It does matter most to me what my wife in particular desires and thinks. So that in mind though and understanding that women vary in their desires anything I can glean from this stuff the better I am in position to learn from it. Men in my situation ( and Women too ), have made a tremendous investment in our relationships. We are out slaying dragons and so on. We have our own needs and priorities.

 

One thing I am seeing from both genders is that what one might call harmless fun or a bit of fun is not always seen in the same light by the SO.

There is single behavior and the varying degrees of coupled behavior. Not the discussion I know.

 

I avoid female strip clubs and I am being totally honest here because whatever small enjoyment I may or may not get from it is not worth either the disrespect I know it would show my wife nor the risk it might pose in putting myself in a vulnerable position. So I choose while thinking above the waste to not put myself at risk when I am thinking below it. It is a slippery slope. Playing "just the tip" is dangerous. Not about trust. I would not want a bit of "harmless fun" to cause hurt to my SO let alone put myself in a position where betrayal can happen and be blamed with being a mistake or on alchohol. I can have my male companionship outside of a strip club. In a vaccum, yes I enjoy seeing nude females. Life is full of choices.

 

Therefore most us men don't have an issue with our wives having reciprocal feelings. Some of us assume that if a wife goes to a male revue that it is probably like a "typical" strip club. Or a stage thing only.

Harmless fun. But because we are wired differently what appeals specifically to women and what is available in these "shows" changes the whole dynamic. So some of us guys are amazed at what some women are willing to do at these shows. No doubt others still have the desire to at least fanatasize about it. As long as there is not an obsession about it, it is probably hamless fun. In the spirit of this thread, do many women really want to act on the touching part? Single or attached may make a difference in the answer." In my relationship this would be a deal breaker. No gaslighting please about insecruities. It is about resepct and individual needs. It is about a balance. I expect, no require respect back. I care about what or who might be the "enemy at the gate". Hmmmm, how freudian? Maybe more like Darwin.

 

As it relates to the article about what women desire these male shows seem to be trying to address some of them. The men showing the women attention, showing arousal ( V8, V10, V12 ), acting out of control and in general doing the bums rush which lifts the burden from the women. She is not acting out. She is the one being the object of desire. She is only accepting the uncontrolled desire of the male. She is being pushed up against the wall and ravaged. So the visual is one thing. The rubbing of oil over a young hunk is playing "just the tip". Even if there were a reluctance, he assists by directing this effort. Again showing lack of control and being lost in the moment. On and on. Whip cream, hj, bj, wedding rings offstage activities. BTW the ring makes the women a target. You can spin that any way you like. She would be seen as being vulnerable and a prize. There could be the after party at the bar .... If this is a private party in a home then we are really talking ...

 

Again fantasy is one thing and acting out another. BUT, my real point is of all this what do women really desire? Most fantasies are never meant to act out. That goes back to the "rape" scenario in the article.

 

To this end maybe I should ask :

 

1) What do women desire in fantasy

2) What do women desire in reality

 

I can see the above being different for sure. I don't think it can be explained away with repression.

 

Again, I don't necessarily think that strip clubs are a good thing for men or women in relationships or marriages. I guess it depends on the relationship and what kind of boundries are set in place. As much as things can easily cross the line at a female strip club, I think things do as well with some women at the hokey male strip clubs we have now-- and could certainly happen if we had a club more tailored to our desires. At the same time, boundries can be crossed at a regular bar or dance club in town.

 

I don't think it's ever healthy for one partner in a committed relationship to be out partying and drinking without their partner very often at all--let alone going to strip clubs. Unless the SO is content taking a backseat role everytime they go out, then at one time or another there will most likely be questionable things which occur during the course of a night out. Whether the issue of strip clubs or just a night on the town, we always have to be making sure that we are on the same page with our partner and working to keep things in balance.

 

Also, not every woman or man is bound by a relationship, so those people would the ones most likely to enjoy and not feel guilty about partaking in such places.

 

To your questions-- what women desire in fantasy is not always something that will ever be carried out in real life, nor would they always want it to be.

 

We women have good imagination and complex desires, so the fantasies are most likely endless if one is willing to explore. That's a very broad question.

[Entropy3000]

Again, I don't necessarily think that strip clubs are a good thing for men or women in relationships or marriages. I guess it depends on the relationship and what kind of boundries are set in place. As much as things can easily cross the line at a female strip club, I think things do as well with some women at the hokey male strip clubs we have now-- and could certainly happen if we had a club more tailored to our desires. At the same time, boundries can be crossed at a regular bar or dance club in town.

 

I don't think it's ever healthy for one partner in a committed relationship to be out partying and drinking without their partner very often at all--let alone going to strip clubs. Unless the SO is content taking a backseat role everytime they go out, then at one time or another there will most likely be questionable things which occur during the course of a night out. Whether the issue of strip clubs or just a night on the town, we always have to be making sure that we are on the same page with our partner and working to keep things in balance.

 

Also, not every woman or man is bound by a relationship, so those people would the ones most likely to enjoy and not feel guilty about partaking in such places.

 

To your questions-- what women desire in fantasy is not always something that will ever be carried out in real life, nor would they always want it to be.

 

We women have good imagination and complex desires, so the fantasies are most likely endless if one is willing to explore. That's a very broad question.

 

Excellent reply. For sure what is in bold is 1000 times or maybe more likely than what I was depicting. I agree totally. I could bold your entire post and just well put.

[starryeyed12]

Dreamingoftigers, I finally read the entire article that you posted.

 

"What more could sexologists provide than intriguing hints and fragmented insights and contradictory conclusions? Could any conclusions encompass the erotic drives of even one woman? Had Freud’s question gone unanswered for nearly a century not because science had taken so long to address it but because it is unanswerable? Sometimes, Chivers talked as if the forest wasn’t visible at all, as if its complexities are an indication less of inherent intricacy than of societal efforts to regulate female desire, of cultural constraints that have left women’s lust dampened and distorted. “So many cultures have quite strict codes governing female sexuality,” she said. “If that sexuality is relatively passive, then why so many rules to control it? Why is it so frightening?” There was the implication that she might never illuminate her subject because she can not even see it, that the data she and her colleagues collect might be deceptive, might represent only the creations of culture, and that her interpretations might be leading away from underlying truth. There was the intimation that, at its core, women’s sexuality might not be passive at all. There was the chance that the long history of fear might have buried the nature of women’s lust too deeply to unearth, to view.

____________

 

If you take a lab-based, hard-core biological perspective, either women don’t know their own mind or they are denying their own feelings.’ Boynton cautions that lab work needs to be measured against other factors. ‘There was a recent study that talked about what works in a kiss, but didn’t take into account the fact that kissing is viewed differently around the world. So french kissing, which might be erotic in the West, is seen as revolting in other countries. If you measured hormones and did brain scans in another part of the world, you’d get an entirely different outcome. Some of the research we do in the West is meaningless in other countries, which suggests to me that sometimes we’re measuring culture instead of arousal.’"

 

 

^^^This

 

Basically, this is the point that I was trying to make. I really do feel like female sexuality, being so mentally based, takes into account societial norms in a big way without even realizing it. Our personal templates, as you said, are created by our individuallity and also society--even when we consciously go against societies standards. For example, how you said that George Clooney isn't a turn on for you, although he is widely perceived as one of the most sexiest men alive. Counter-culture still fits within a societial grouping (hipsters, hippies, goth, emo--groups that consiously go against fitting into society grouping, simulantiously fitting into a societial group with their own set of group standards). Could it be that some of your template was formed by this sort of grouping or thinking?

 

Also, the fact that our society is dominated by the heterosexual male perspective is another thing to take into account. I would love a study that tested different generations of women because throughout the years we have been able to accept and explore more about our sexuality. Still there are major walls of society-- institutions such as religion, for example, that hinder fundamental understanding (and always have for both men and women).

 

This is why I mentioned the generation of tweens, teens, and young adults of today. I think that this generation is continuing the trend of pushing sexual boundries and norms in a more mainstream way. In terms of female sexuality, this generation seems more so to mirror the trends that were being pointed out at the beginning of the article. That women are physiologically aroused by a wide variety of differnt couplings and stimulants. I think they may be more psychologically open to the fact that they are physically aroused by such stimuli. I'm sure the trend of pushing boundries will continue throughout the decades. I think this will either illumiate some of the mysteries of female arousal or make them even more baffling.

 

And there's still always the chance that, "...the long history of fear might have buried the nature of women’s lust too deeply to unearth, to view."

Edited April 30, 2011 by starryeyed12

[Entropy3000]

Or, I open myself up sexually.

 

I'm not sure you can have respect for my experience and preferences if you believe they are inferior, lol. Different isn't always better or worse. I'm sure I could find some evolutionary theory about why my preferences are perfectly natural and healthy.

 

Nature or nurture, why fight something that is working so damn well for me? I've found great fulfillment and pleasure in embracing my sexuality for what it is.

 

But, please, I never said a man's "naughty bits" aren't sexy!

 

I could pick any of your posts on this subject and conclude that this person has just flat got it together. You appear to be very open minded in harmony with intelligence and wisdom. You are very comfortable in your feelings and respect and care about others and therefore understand boundaries. I could go on and on ... which would get a little creepy I suppose. So before I cross a boundary myself I would just say I appeciate your views very much.