fear?

[Kevin]

Excuse me if this message is appearing twice. When I first submitted it I'm not sure if I canceled it or posted it and it is not showing up on my browser.

 

I'm working on getting back together with my ex. She's 19 years old and very independent. We didn't actually formally break up, but it was apparent time apart was needed for her. She stopped returning my phone calls and we were seeing less and less of each other, even though I did not want that. Anyway, the reason was that she is independant, and our relationship had turned into one where I was always trying to solve all her problems..give her advice on what to do (even as far as school and a job) and buying her things the minute she showed interest in them.

 

We spent some time apart with no contact, then met up by accident again and she was very friendly. Since then, we have seen each other a few times (not arranged, but just by running into each other). The longer the time between our meetings the nicer she is....but if we happen to bump into each other only a day or two after we last met each other, she usually finds a way to not talk.

 

Anyway, she has show some affection lately, although I'm not looking into it to much (some friendly joking around, she offered a few hugs, etc.) and she did say that she would like to "give things another chance"

 

Here is the problem I am having, and I have come to this based on my own observations and a very short conversation with one of her friends: She is afraid of me once again trying to do thigns for her. When we do talk now, she won't even let the conversation go in a direction where I could even offer her a compliment...and if I so much as hint that I could do anything for her, even something as small as taking her garbage with my own to the trash can after we ate at a fast food restraunt, she gets this scared look in her eyes.

 

I know I pushed her pretty hard before on this, I did not let her have her independance in the past. However, we have at least established our friendship again in a way and she is comfortable with this. I beleive this is HER problem more than it is my problem, but it still is a problem. What are some mistakes I may be making that I don't realize that may be preventing her from getting beyond this? Is more time all that is needed? Is there anything I can actually do or say that won't scare her anymore?

 

I thought if I could explain to her in detail that I don't expect anythign back of her and that I would respect her own decisions and support her, that may help. But is it possible the only thing that would do is show I'm trying hard to make things work, and what she really needs is to see me not try hard AT ALL with her and let thigns happen?

 

Ok, I know I'm looking into this alot, but I thought I'd feel better if I posted all my feelings on the subject.

[Tony T]

This situation has NOTHING to do with fear or independence. This lady is looking for a MAN who will listen to her and who won't be buying her things...YUK!!!

 

No woman wants a guy to go on red alert every time she has a problem or wants something.

 

First, most women who let you in on their problems are NOT WANTING SOLUTIONS. Whereas men who talk about their problems are looking for advice, most women usually want someone to listen, that's all, JUST TO LISTEN. They just want their problems to be acknowleged, they don't want a fix. If they do want a fix, THEY WILL ASK FOR ADVICE. If they don't ask for advice, just listen to the problem and acknowledge that you have heard what they have said...that is all. So PLEASE, stop trying to solve all your lady's problems.

 

You may even ask your lady just what kind of response she wants when she mentions her problems. Once she tells you, just say "I understand" and drop it...don't get into a long conversation about it. Better if you don't have to ask her to begin with...but, if you must.

 

As for buying things for a girl everytime she expresses an interest in something, THIS IS THE FINEST AND MOST EXCELLENT WAY TO DESTROY A RELATIONSHIP. It has nothing to do with her wanting to be independent. A little bit has to do with her perception that you may be trying to buy her love.

 

MOST OF IT has to do with you appearing as a lovesick wimp who is at her beck and call. While there are a few wenches out there who would take advantage of a guy like you until the end and spit you out in small pieces, this girl thought enough of you to break up with you instead of taking your for everything she could. That's why I'd really like to see you get her back. She's a pretty good catch if you are equal to the task.

 

PLEASE LISTEN UP!!! Women want a MAN who is a challenge, who is unpredictable, who is aloof, who is not their shadow, who is NOT at their service 24/7. By buying her things constantly, you ceased to be any kind of challenge at all, which is the spark that keeps relationships vibrant and alive. If you are so darned predictable and available, she has no need to be around you because she knows your every deed and action in advance...so there's no more to find out about you. The relationship is DEAD!!!

 

NOW STOP BEING SO NICE...STOP BEING SO PREDICTABLE...STOP BEING SO AVAILABLE...STOP OFFERING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS....STOP BUYING HER STUFF ALL THE TIME...STOP RETURNING HER CALLS WITHIN MINUTES....STOP BEING EXACTLY ON TIME WHEN YOU SEE HER....JUST STOP BEING SUCH A PERFECT GUY........S H E D O E S N O T W A N T S U C H A P E R F E C T L Y N I C E G U Y ! ! ! ! ! ! !

 

If you get back with her, buy her gifts ONLY for her birthday, Christmas, and Valentine's Day. Send flowers as one of the gifts but NEVER send her flowers in between unless something extremely special happens in between those special days. Send her a nice card ONLY TWICE A YEAR. Do not make your phone calls to her predictable. Sometimes talk to her for a good while, sometimes let her know you're busy. ALWAYS be the one to conclude the calls first. DO NOT call her every day...NEVER NEVER NEVER. If she calls you, be very kind and considerate but keep the verbage short. These things will drive her absolutely crazy...about YOU!!!

 

Do not ask her out for every weekend at first. Then later, ask her out ONLY for one weekend night, Friday or Saturday. If she asks you out, the first time just be busy and unavailable but tell her how grateful you are for her thoughts and let her know you look forward to getting together with her soon....BUT DON'T MAKE AN ALTERNATIVE DATE RIGHT THEN.

 

If she sends you Emai, sometimes reply right away, sometimes many hours later, sometimes a few days later. Only on rare occasion should you initiate any kind of Email or snail mail to her. Yes, you bet this is a game, but many men do all this stuff naturally so it's not a game for you...but the ladies eat it up big time.

 

If you want her back, you are going to have to change your ways big time and right away. You are going to have to become the MAN she is looking for...the unpredictable challenge...you are going to have to give her a run for her money. Just continue to be nice...you can do all this and be very kind and nice about it...and you have to make it look natural.

 

I get criticized on the forum for encouraging game playing...and I also get criticized for recommending that people move on. So I guess I can't win...but YOU CAN by following my directions. If you get to a bookstore, buy a copy of "Nice Guys Don't Get Laid" by Marcus Meleton Jr. If you can't find it, you can order it from Sharkbait Press, P.O. Box 11300, Costa Mesa, CA 92627-0300. The book will outline many more pitfalls of being too nice than I have mentioned here.

 

I also URGE you to order "Love Tactics" and "More Love Tactics" by Thomas W. McKnight and Robert H. Phillips, Avery Puhlishing Group, Garden City Park, N.Y. These books are offer the world's most priceless strategies for sweeping ladies off their feet and winning their love in the even the worst of circumstances. They are treasures you can give to your children in years to come.

 

I apologize if I seemed strong here...but I see in you what I used to be myself...and I HATE myself for being the wimp that I was, giving, giving, giving and getting dusted at every corner. It isn't fun. If you can comprehend what I've told you here, you'll be a winner every time. Just stay a kind person, but keep your generosity intermittent and don't try to solve every problem you lady has. BITE YOUR TONGUE!!!

 

One more thing. DON'T SHARE THIS INFORMATION WITH HER. That would be really inappropriate. Don't tell her you're sorry you were so nice...or anything like that. JUST CHANGE!!! Everything here is just between us guys, OK, and let's keep it that way.

 

I want you to have this girl back...and I want you to keep her...and the only way that will happen is what???????? Right....DON'T BE SO DAMNED NICE!!!!

[Kevin]

I have read many of your posts before, and it seems there are a lot of people with problems similar to mine. Maybe I think I'm doing better than I am, but with regard to it all, I have stopped buying her things and trying to solve all her problems (during our time apart of course) and have laid back on it in the few converstaions we have had since we have been talking again.

 

Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way, but it seems to me she is comfortable talking a bit now and even going out to eat (we did that twice at a fast food place) because I have stopped doing those things. As I said in my last post though, you can see her facial expressions change if I so much as hint at offering her anything, no matter how small or trivial. Even things I may say accidentally that are so innocent someone else may not even notice tend to cause her to back off and be quiet for a moment or two (like she is afraid of them).

 

So, I understand your advice and I have been doing (or more appropriatly, NOT doing) most of what you said in your post. It has helped that she is not running away from me all the time now, but I still sense a lot of apprehension on her part. What I mean by that is that other people can say the same thigns I say to her and she won't make anyting of it, but when I say it she is looking for any hint I may make at all (unintentional or not) of helping her out.

 

Well, that's all I have to add. If you can say anything else that may help, I'd appreciate it. If not, maybe what I need to do is just to continue to follow what you said in your last post ane expect things to just take time to even out.

[Tony T]

You wrote: "you can see her facial expressions change if I so much as hint at offering her anything, no matter how small or trivial."

 

SO STOP EVEN HINTING.

 

I really think things are going to work out for you here, if you can follow my directions closely. Right now, she is hypersensitive to your words and actions because she was so uncomfortable before she broke things up with you. I know it sounds so weird that a person would be uncomfortable with the kindnesses of another person but that's just the way it is.

 

Avoid doing everything I told you not to and do everything I told you...and, in time, she will see change. You are making such a radical change in your behavior and she is seeing it and probably can't figure out what's going on. But please, continue to stay out of her shadow and do your own thing. As you said, the more frequently you see her, the less happy and warm she seems to be...so make your appearances a rarity for now. Show her a different you.

 

I hope you will keep these strategies in your consciousness for all times and in dealing with all people. All but the most selfish, self-centered people are uncomfortable with a genie being around constantly to solve problems and grant their every wiSh. A big part of the meaning of life is figuring out our own problems and working to get our own stuff. You take that away from somebody and you've taken away the core of their existence.

 

By George, I think you are catching on. GOOD LUCK!!!

[kerry]

Hi Kevin,

 

Just a quick note to say that I totally agree with Tony.

 

I myself have been in relationships like the one that you have written about - but I was the girl.

 

As Tony says, there is nothing less attractive than a guy who is too nice! I know it sounds stupid - but take it from a girl who has been on the recieving end - it's a real turn off. Add a bit of spice, be a bit mysterious, and you'll see things change.

 

Good luck,

 

Becky.

[Elmer]

Hi all,

 

interesting subject you raise - and I need some clarification too. I've been too weak in dealing with women too, but I guess my approach is that I'm scared of hurting them rather than 'offering' anything. It did happen again recently, I was chatting fairly intimately on the net and she found out (a big gaffe by me) that I was talking even more intimately with someone else. She was hurt for days, I emailed her a long explanation and was basically totally straight with both girls about the situation, and we're now talking again...

 

I always offer to be at least honest in reply to a question either of them gives me, does this count against the mystery aspect? Or should one basically look after themselves, partly ignoring any carnage caused on other people's emotions because we all have to go through it at some stage...just in the previous instance it seems that being somewhat weak and just explaining everything did result in a good outcome.

 

Maybe I need to read those books too

[Tony T]

Who you talk to on the net and at what level of intimacy you talk to them is none of the other's buisness whatsoever. That is, as long as you have not led either one to believe they were your one and only. Unless it was YOU who told them, your conversations were somehow compromised and you should investigate this breach of security. However, there is almost NO WAY any hacker would be interested in revealing the contents or intimacy level of your conversations to each of the girls you were speaking to on the net.

 

If YOU were the one that told one about the other, you have a serious problem with keeping your mouth shut. If you accidentally put in the wrong name into your message, you are right...that was a real gaffe.

 

But it's NOBODY"S business what you write anybody anywhere unless you are misleading somebody.

 

If you are so afraid of hurting ladies, as you say, why are you being so intimate with two ladies at the same time on the net? Being concerned about their feelings is disclosing to them right up front that THEY AREN'T THE ONLY ONE. I would feel like an absolute fool if I was pouring my guts out emotionally and vice versa to someone who was doing the same with one or more other people. That would really piss me off and there is nothing they could say to unpiss me.

 

I think you have a lot more nerve than you think. I think you aren't as concerned about girl's feelings as you think. Being assertive and holding your ground with women in a gentle way is a whole different concept than your ability to be sneaky and keep your antics from each of the girls you are being sneaky with.

 

If these girls were smart, they would know your ability to be a two or more timer ON the net probably reflected your ability to be a two or more timer OFF the net. So you are really concerned about girl's feelings, uh? YUK!!!

 

I do envy your mental accuity that allows you to be intimate with one person and even more intimate with another and to keep that difference going between them for a long period. Yeah, you were bound to slip up sooner or later.

 

So your concern about being too weak with women and your concern about hurting them rather than offering them anything is justified. I hope you will work a bit on offering them at least a level of integrity. That won't get you in hot water, I promise.

[Tony T]

You wrote: "She was hurt for days, I emailed her a long explanation and was basically totally straight with both girls about the situation, and we're now talking again..."

 

You are obviously pretty good at talking yourself out of a paper bag. Coming clean after you have done damage through deceit may help to clear your own conscience but it doesn't give you integrity. Not being deceitful in the first place is what does.

 

The reason you wrote such a long explanation to these girls was not for their sake or feelings, but an effort by you to keep them on your string. You seem to have succeeded. The humane thing to do would have been to let them know exactly what you have done and withdraw.

 

Unless these girls are third degree retarded, they WILL NEVER TRUST YOU AGAIN AS LONG AS THEY LIVE ON THIS PLANET.

 

I don't think I can change you in this forum and don't really need to but I hope this experience has taught you how you can hurt people through your actions. But please do not mistake what you do for what we have been talking about. I pray for the sake of women on the net worldwide who enjoy chatting with guys that you will always announce upfront that they are NOT the only one.

 

The concept I've been trying to get across to others has to do with strategies to keep the interest of ONE specific lady they are focused on.

 

Sorry to use such tough language with you, I'm sure in most ways you are a great guy. But all this dishonesty, deceit, misrepresentation stuff on the net is driving me nuts because it really does hurt people.

[Elmer]

Dear Tony,

 

maybe I sacrificed explaining the situation properly because of wanting to be somewhat brief in my post.

 

I'm not a two-timer at all, need to make that clear straight away.

 

Firstly, there is a difference between what you'd tell a close friend and a girlfriend, but you'd be somewhat intimate with either. Obviously I didn't make it clear enough which side of the fence I was standing on, but the gaffe did do that. And it was just a gaffe. I guess that is the upshot of your message, and in a way you did answer my question...being 'weak' and slowly finding a way to tell someone where they stand with me (which I was doing) is not appropriate.

 

And as far as hackers/etc...no it wasn't like that. I felt really guilty about hurting my friends feelings, and only told my net girlfriend because it bothered me to not be straight down the line after already causing trouble through not being straight. So I was straight, and both of them got the full story. That's a long way different from beating my way out of a paper bag, considering I didn't have to say anything to my net girlfriend who would have had no way of finding out if I didn't tell her.

 

I guess I don't know now (after reading your posts) whether I'm doing the right thing considering I still chat to both of them, with more clearly defined boundaries now.

 

This may all seem a bit defensive, I'll try and take away your message and ignore the misinterpretation.

 

It seems like net chat is a pretty complicated medium once you get beyond 'asl'.

[Tony T]

Very simply, if you are honest, straightforward, and disclose to each and every one of them where they stand and that you are not involved with them exclusively, you could be intimate, I suppose, with an unlimited number of women on and off the net if you are physically and/or mentally capable.

 

The point is being honest and if you do that you are in the clear.

 

Your original post really didn't deal with being emotionally strong in the sense I usually speak of here. You sound just fine. Don't worry. Just keep knocking 'em out on the net.

 

I apologize if I misinterpreted any or all of your original post. I'm sure you know the absolute truth about yourself and what direction you need to go.