Am I done? Is this too toxic? Was 9/11 an inside job?

[You Go Girl]

There are probably millions of BPD people who are drinkers. Most BPD's abuse substances also.

But EVERY drinker *appears* to have some form of BPD, or other disorder, while many do not. That's where it gets dangerous, if in fact, he is alcoholic.

 

I'm sorry if that sounded like chastising, it was meant more as a warning.

[fencesitter]

There are probably millions of BPD people who are drinkers. Most BPD's abuse substances also.

But EVERY drinker *appears* to have some form of BPD, or other disorder, while many do not. That's where it gets dangerous, if in fact, he is alcoholic.

 

I'm sorry if that sounded like chastising, it was meant more as a warning.

 

Awesome. Thanks for your warning. I do not find it helpful. I am certain this is not a healthy relationship, BPD, drinking, of whatever it may be.

 

Our therapist evaluated him based on his entire life. He has not always been an alcoholic and it seems he has been disordered long before he started to drink.

[Downtown]

There are probably millions of BPD people who are drinkers. Most BPD's abuse substances also. But EVERY drinker *appears* to have some form of BPD, or other disorder, while many do not. That's where it gets dangerous, if in fact, he is alcoholic.

YGG, if BPD were a specific disease, I could understand your concern that -- until the alcohol is gone -- it might be difficult for a psychologist to diagnose the underlying disease. But BPD is not a specific disease. Indeed, none of the 10 personality disorders (PDs) has been linked to any known disease whatsoever. As far as the psychologists know, all 10 PDs may be caused by the same disease. No scienfitic study has yet established to a certainty what causes ANY of the PDs. The sad state of affairs in psychology is that the PDs are simply syndromes, i.e., patterns of behavior that the therapists often see as occurring together.

 

This means that, when you see a person strongly exhibiting 5 of the 9 BPD traits, it is reasonable to state that he is exhibiting "strong BPD traits." It is the equivalent of saying that a man walking like a duck and quacking like a duck is exhibiting "strong duck-like behavior." Because nobody on the planet has established the cause for certain, it does not matter whether the man's behavior is caused by inheriting duck genes, by being abused by ducks, or by alcoholism.

 

The diagnostic manual ignores all potential causes and simply classifies every PD by behavior alone. Simply stated, a man who is behaving like a BPDer is, by definition, exhibiting strong BPD traits. This is why psychologists do not wait for alcoholism to vanish before they diagnose BPD. The man either exhibits the behavior or not. This use of the term "disorder" in psychology is confusing because, in every other field of the medical sciences, "disorder" refers to a specific disease, not the symptoms. In fact, it is common for the same set of symptoms to be caused by a dozen different disorders. In psychology, however, "disorder" refers only to a set of symptoms.

 

This is why, when we speak of "strong BPD traits" here on the forum, you do not need to be concerned -- as some members often are -- that we may harm the OP by "misdiagnosing" her H's disease. As I just explained, such harm is impossible because there is no known disease causing PDs. We therefore cannot misdiagnose them. In psychology, all PDs are only clusters of symptoms. So saying a man has five strong BPD traits is the equivalent of saying he has a high fever, sudden weight loss, and muscle aches.

[fencesitter]

I got off the fence. I left 6 weeks ago. Had a big fight that resulted with him throwing something at me and calling me a "piece of sh**". Drove 3,000 miles, closest place I had friends.

 

He's been in therapy for a few months now and very newly started going to AA. He is full of promises to never hurt me again and that he is dedicated to staying sober and working the steps. But I don't have to tell you all how many times I have heard promises before.

 

I miss him. I miss home. Of course, it wasn't all bad all the time. He makes me laugh and we are an awesome team in many ways.

 

I know I can make it on my own and I am not afraid of being by myself. I've been going to Al Anon and working on my own "stuff" with a therapist. I feel good and powerful and have a clear vision of the life I want for myself regardless of my marital status.

 

Today I find myself thinking I want to go back and give it another go. If it doesn't work out, I have the financial resources to leave. But I wonder what "recovery" actually looks like. How will I know if he is doing the work and "getting better"? I know I can't rely on his words. But I don't know what actions to look for.

 

I know to stay focused on my own recovery and build a life for myself outside of the marriage (friends, work, volunteering, etc) so that I have my OWN identity. But I slipped into the abyss with him once, how can I be sure that I won't slowly lose my confidence again and go back to that dark depressed state of mind?

 

It's a critical time, logistically. I have to stay put in one place for the next few years for my career. If we don't reconcile now, we're not gonna. Am I being a complete tool for even thinking of going back to him?

[trippi1432]

No Fencesitter, not a tool for feeling how you feel and thinking of those things...there was a connection with him, else you would not be married. But, first thing first....and that is YOU..working on moving towards a more fulfilling and happy life. You are working on normalizing your life without the drama and the outbursts, he is learning what "normal" is.

 

Look at how far you have come...in just six weeks...keep working on this for you. I'm proud of you that you took that step to move away from that dynamic as it can bring you down very easily. And where you are now is very normal in the detaching process, so don't ever think bad of yourself for doing the right thing for your sanity, safety or peace of mind.

 

Stay strong, and if you ever need to vent, feel free to come here any time to do so.

 

{{{Hugs}}}

[carhill]

But I wonder what "recovery" actually looks like.

 

That's a wonderful subject for IC. Kudos to you for pursuing your own work and seeking out AlAnon to help you in your decision-making and coping processes.

 

TBH, if I were in your shoes (genders reversed of course), I'd go the legal sep/div route and make it all legal and give her time to recover for herself and leave the door open down the road with a timeline to revisit. The hardest part of any meaningful change is staying the course over time and not falling back into old patterns.

 

If you draw the sep/div line in the sand now, he'll be faced with the reality of that path as a certainty if he doesn't demostrate recovery and sobriety over time. If he does, to your satisfaction, the lawsuit is merely not prosecuted to completion.

 

Can you see leaving as an act of love and that love doesn't have to die by leaving?

 

In our M, we left *because* we were done and D was the healthy path. Can leaving in your case be a toxin cleanser leading to future health? Unknown. As our MC put it so succinctly, you have a decision to make. I wish you well.

[Downtown]

Fencesitter, I hope all is well with you. If you are still around and have time to do so, please give us an update. Over two months ago, you left your H and moved 3,000 miles away but, two weeks ago, you were still trying to decide whether to file for divorce -- or give him more time to show improvement from his therapy for his strong BPD traits.

[fencesitter]

I'm reading my own words like someone else wrote them. How easily I have forgotten many things that happened. A few sentences into my first post, I was shaking my head saying, girl...leave that man and don't look back.

 

But I did go back, in August of last year. He was home for 2 months, shipped off, back for 3 weeks, and is gone again til next month.

 

He is still drinking, much less than before, but still. There have been no more abusive behaviors, but our relationship is strained. To be fair, he has changed some, yet it feels like superficial changes. I suppose in the amount of time, that is a valid feeling on my end.

 

I graduated and am still looking for work. I am waiting to hear back after an interview and have a good lead on another position.

 

I reconnected with some old friends and feel less alone. I am still going to AlAnon.

 

Just shaking my head at all of this. Why is it so difficult to decide to close the door for good? Looking back at what I have written here and remembering the things that have happened...I am horrified that I expect this to work out. It's not going to, is it?

 

Despite things being better, I don't think I will ever be able to rely on him in my heart or trust him, or respect him. I don't get that soft feeling for him.

 

He's back in 5 weeks. When he's away, I sleep better and life is more peaceful. I'm lonely a lot, but it's better than being anxious all the time. It's not too late for me...I just need the courage to face reality and decide how to end this crazy, unfulfilling and destructive relationship.

[Downtown]

Fencesitter, thanks so much for giving us the update. I understand your predicament. Like you, I was married to an emotionally unstable person -- for 15 years in my case. Unstable people are always greatly improving, in the same way that smokers are always quitting smoking. It therefore is very difficult to judge whether any actual improvement has occurred.

 

My BPDer exW, for example, agree to go to IC and MC. So I spent a small fortune sending her to weekly therapy -- with six different psychologists -- for 15 years. For many years I figured that, because she was getting in touch with painful childhood memories, she would have to get worse in her behavior before getting better. Then, for about ten years, I somehow deceived myself into believing that she somehow was improving. It was all to no avail in my case, however. She got worse and eventually left me.

 

It therefore sounds like, five weeks from now, you will be back to having to decide whether his behavior is actually substantially better -- and, more important, whether it will remain that way for very long.

[fencesitter]

Well, after 2 days of arguing...we had the talk. It's over.

 

I'm sad, but I am also feeling eerily calm. I think he is going to be amicable.

[dreamingoftigers]

Good for you for continuing with your recovery. Sorry that your relationship did not work out.

[Downtown]

Fencesitter, like Dreaming, I am so sorry that your relationship did not work out. Lord knows it wasn't for a lack of trying on your part. As to his being "amicable," that won't last long if he is a BPDer. Indeed, you likely will see a level of vindictiveness and meanness that you did not believe he was capable of.

 

My exW, for example, had me thrown in jail and told all my step kids that I had been brutalizing her. Hence, if you still suspect he has strong BPD traits, I suggest you obtain a copy of Splitting: Protecting Yourself when Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist. Released six months ago, this new book was written by the same author (Kreger) who wrote the best-selling BPD book, Stop Walking on Eggshells. Take care, No-Longer-A-Fencesitter.

[fencesitter]

Thanks for the heads up, Downtown. I expect he will get cold very soon...but I believe his job will keep his behaviors in check. (He's military...I'm ex military police...one step out of line and he knows I would not hesitate to involve his bosses.) But...I will def. keep myself on alert. I think I have my bases covered regarding what he could possibly sabotage in my life, were he so inclined.

 

The stars are aligning in my favor...a girlfriend is graduating college and moving to a new city. Guess who needs a roommate? I love her, and her little dog is good for my soul, too. This will involve another cross country move....but it is what it is. Not a bad idea to put some distance between me and H.

 

Not sure when I am leaving...he is in another state for some training right now. I will def. be gone before he returns. I think that is another blessing...

 

In the meantime, I am focusing on taking good care of myself with enough sleep, healthy food, exercise. Al Anon and counseling. I'm feeling sad, but STRONG. What a difference from last time I left him. For years, I've been tormented by the question of whether to leave or not...and the truth is, you know when you know. I am clear on this. What a blessing.

Edited March 10, 2012 by fencesitter

[2sunny]

I'm happy you are getting stronger. It will get better... Have you done your step work in al-anon? I highly suggest it.

 

You can't make him stop drinking. The top two symptoms of the active drinker are depression and anxiety - sounds familiar?

 

I exhibited those traits when I stopped ... And it takes sobriety and time along with some heavy doses of step work to find a way to be happy each day!

 

It's totally worth it!

 

But for YOU... Take care of you. You're doing well - keep going forward.

 

Hugs