"Choices" ...

[Kismetly]

I’ve been thinking a lot about “choices” and why women who generally pride themselves on making the “right” choices, make the poor choice to enter into an affair with a man in a committed relationship. I’ve been thinking about how many “poor” choices are involved in entering an affair, and how they start small, and each and every new “bad” choice gets bigger and worse than the last. As they snowball, it gets harder and harder and so much more uncomfortable to undo the choices you’ve made.

 

I apologise in advance for the length of this post – I’m musing and trying to figure out stuff that’s going on in my head post affair. I hope I’ll be able to use this process of healing to ensure I always make good choices in the future ...

 

On an OP, I wrote

 

This is not a defence of the OW. I know better than anyone that what she did is indefensible … but I can almost guarantee she didn’t get up one day and chose to engage in behavior that deliberately hurt another woman. Despite the rhetoric and vitriol that goes on around here – that’s just generally not the way it works.

 

Woinlove responded

 

This part always puzzles me, OW who think they have little control over themselves. Many choose not to think too much about MM's marital status or wife initially, to focus on other parts, but that is a choice. Sometimes one makes that choice because one is enjoying the feelings and thinking about his wife and his life with her does not feel as good

 

It’s so many little choices, that end up culminating in the big choices ...

 

 

I’ve been approached and pursued by several married men in the past few years – I think that’s a function of many men in my age group (I’m 40), and perhaps profession, getting to this age and being bored, dissatisfied, whatever, in their marriage, meeting an outgoing attractive single woman and it piques their interest in what else is on offer out in the rest of the world. One MM who vigorously (and unsuccessfully – because I made “good” choices) pursued me a couple of years ago quoted Henry Thoreau when explaining why he was looking for a relationship outside of his marriage saying …“Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them”. His theory was that men get married in their late 20s, early 30s, spend 10 or 15 years having a family, accumulating assets, busy, busy, busy, and they get to their 40s and wonder if that is all there is.

 

 

Often their sex life isn’t what they would like it to be (because, let’s face it, their wives are BUSY – they are running children around everywhere, working, running the house etc etc and when they married they were young, so they were both probably sexually inexperienced and they haven’t invested learning how to make love, there are often other issues of previous abuse, body image etc etc etc – I’ve been her, I know the issues). In addition, if they haven’t worked at it, their interests have diverged. He’s been focused at work, she’s been focused at work and at home, there is a whole heap of shared history – but the passion and fun is often gone.

 

Anyway – enough about the men. My point is that many people, are often dissatisfied with their marriages after 10 – 15 years and they seek entertainment, and perhaps a life-jacket to exit the relationship if they don’t have the skills or the will to re-invest and re-make their marriage.

 

 

So the “choices” start with the MM. He’s chosen not to deal with what’s unsatisfactory in his life and go outside his marriage. ‘ Not defending the bad choices of OW – but making the point first up that if a man doesn’t make himself available for an affair – an affair is not going to happen.

 

So they meet an OW, and they “befriend” her. It often starts out completely platonic, because single 30 and 40 something year old women are generally living their lives and making “good” choices. They are engaged in their work, they have interests, they have friends – married and single men and women – and the friendship seems harmless, at first it’s just like any other friendship. The first “poor choice” an OW makes is to continue a friendship with a man she knows is married but who doesn’t talk about his wife. MM who are genuinely interested in you as a friend or colleague talk about their wives. They talk about them lovingly and often.

 

Some men present themselves as “available”. Reading here there are a couple of scenarios – they lie straight up and say they are separated/divorced; or they tell a yarn about their marriage being nothing but roommates. In the first scenario – the OW makes a “choice” to believe the lie. Why do they do that? Why did I do that? Golly I’ve thought a lot about that. I think it’s because by that stage you’ve come to have a relationship with the bloke. You like him and you don’t want to believe that a “friend” would lie to you. For me, the worst part about that choice was that I “chose” to ignore my gut. Who does that? That’s pretty outrageous and really sad.

 

 

So the OW “choses” to ignore the fact that there is a wife somewhere. I’ve read about OW who are manipulative and mean about the BS, that wasn’t my experience, maybe my response was worse, I “chose” to ignore her existence. There’s lots of what I consider logical reasons for that and no point going into them – but the bottom line is that if he doesn’t talk about her, in my case he wasn’t living with her, there is no “relationship” to acknowledge. The relationship is outside of the OWs experience –so it’s deceptively easy to ignore it. Further, by that stage you’ve developed a relationship with the man and you like spending time with him. It feels good.

 

 

If you stop spending time with him, it will hurt him – and he’s your friend and you don’t want to hurt your friend. So you “chose” to continue the friendship because it’s an easier “choice” than unfriending him and hurting him … and suffering the discomfort yourself. I read here once that OW stay in affairs until the pain of staying is greater than the pain of leaving … there’s a lot of truth in that.

 

 

All the while – the rest of your life seems to be running smoothly. You’re still making “good” choices about family matters, finances, nutrition, friends, work. Life is a continuous juggling act of controlling the choices you make – from breakfast “I chose to have fruit and yoghurt rather than bacon and eggs – because it’s the right choice to make”, to exercise “I chose to get up an hour early and exercise – because I’m a balanced woman and exercise is important in a balanced life”. To work “I chose to finish these 3 submissions before I get to the fun stuff at work – because they’ve got to be done and professionals don’t procrastinate on the tedious stuff”. And family “I’ll spend this weekend with my nieces and nephews because family is more important than another girl’s weekend in Bali”. Or money “I won’t buy that Prada handbag, I’ll put the money on the mortgage because smart girls have their finances in order.”

 

 

But there is this one part of your life where you know you are “choosing” to do the “wrong” thing. I’m not sure if it was because I thought I didn’t “have control” over that part of my life, as suggest by Woinlove – or that I thought I did have control over it. When everything else in your life is so controlled, it’s surprising when you wake up one day and realize your personal life is so out of control.

 

 

So we get to the second “bad choice”. The choice to allow yourself to develop feelings for this scoundrel. You’ve ignored your gut, you’ve ignored the poor long suffering wife, and you “chose” to ignore the fact that you are allowing yourself to develop feelings for a toxic man. In fact you “chose” to ignore that the man is toxic.

 

 

At the time – it’s not a conscious choice (and I know that sounds like a complete cop-out – but it is what it is).

 

 

I suspect what this is really about is a whole combination of poor self-esteem, poor boundaries, emotional immaturity – and a good dose of laziness. It’s just easier to go along at that stage, because you can somehow convince yourself that “how can something that feels so right, be so wrong?”

 

 

So then, when you “choose” to continue the relationship, for months or years, it’s not so much about choosing to take the low road, it’s just that it’s an easier choice than the alternative – which will mean hurting him, hurting yourself and having to face up to all the choices that got you there in the first place.

 

 

I guess – this is a roundabout way of saying not everyone is as strong, rational and moral as we would like to think we are. And just because you are strong, rational and ethical and most of your life – doesn’t mean you translate those skills when you’re caught up in the euphoria of an affair.

 

 

But the real thing that got me started thinking about “choices” and the assumption that it’s all about the OWs poor choices, is that the biggest, baddest choice in the whole scenario is that of the married man to go outside of his relationship and lie and deceive and manipulate the OW to deliberately get them to engage in an inappropriate relationship … let’s not underestimate the power of that choice.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Kismetly
formatting disaster

[1956peace]

I think this is about choices for the OW and the married man, it is also about respecting someone else when you know you aren't, sure it's easy to say you just didn't think about that person and it's worse for the married man, he actually gave his word to his wife that he wouldn't do such a thing in his marriage vows...........when you enter into a relationship you have to re-write history or the facts so you can deflect your responsiblity in doing what you know is right........the married man also does this, makes himself believe that there is more out there for him, re-writing his marriage, his wife and anything else that will appease his guilt............

He is only looking after himself at this point, he disrespecting everything he has built to this point but becoming someone without integrity or honesty.......they become people that their families don't even recognize anymore.

The married man is only using the OW he isn't about to give up all that he has worked for or his children.........I'm afraid to say that the secrect relationship just doesn't mean that much.........at least not to give up his life as he knows it ...........

Sure sometimes it works out they get married and then they live their lives in fear of the same thing happening to them, they become the BS in their mind set, watching for signs that someone else has replaced them...

They know it can happen first hand and that their now husband is capable of such an act.......

I think we all make choices in this life, but if those choices don't take the facts and truths into account then they won't turn out to be a good thing for them........

The only way you get respect in this world is to respect others.

Nothing good ever comes out of a relationship like this for anyone involved, think of all the people that will be affected, families, wives, husband's, children, OW, OM, none of it is good..............

If you want to hurt yourself delude yourself into believing you are the special one but I hope you are smarter than that and I hope you will respect you more than that..............

Sleeping at night is a good thing, self respect is a good thing....

[jeweleestar]

Very well said kismetly.

 

I have struggled the past few days with guilt, questions, sadness over the loss, and had a moment of clarity today that I am hoping carries me a long while. While I may have made a wrong choice, I am recognizing that this is probably not the first time that the wrong choice has been made by xMM (first time I put that x in front and it feels pretty good).

 

My situation seemed to follow exactly like you wrote. Befriend, things aren't good at home, we are separated, etc. I recognize that I tend to believe that people do the right thing and don't go out to knowingly hurt other people. I also recognize that I like to nurture and fix those that are hurting... I see how this can get me into major trouble in these situations.

 

I really thought about the things you said and I did choose to make the decisions I did. But, for the most part I think I try and live my life in a manner that other people would say what a great woman she is. In this situation, I slipped up. I am working on allowing me to forgive myself. I made a mistake, I did something I didn't want to do, but I can CHOOSE to not make the same mistake again.

 

Thanks for your words of clarity.

 

jewel

[Spark1111]

I think your post is brilliant and brave and very, very, wise Kismetly!

 

Thank you for your honesty.

 

Denial, more denial, low self-esteem, and a whole lotta justification, plus mounds of conflict-avoidance thrown in for good measure.

 

Identify what made you vulnerable to the advances of a MM and you will never go there again. THink about it. Do you think you were the first woman he may have come on to? Were you the last? Were you the only woman he was friends with?

 

There is a school of thought that teaches a man never truly befriends a woman unless he has an attraction towards her. Do you think this is true? You can be professional colleagues, but friends who begin to discuss intimate matters, like the state of his marriage? Huge red flag.

 

Seducing a bored MM on the prowl for novelty is like shooting fish in a barrel. Pretty easy.

 

The harder question is why did you succumb where many a woman would have said yuck! Why did you have weak boundaries in this one area where you had been so proficient and on top of it all in all other areas of your life?

 

Were you lonely? Vulnerable? Needing validation? Or simply needing male attention?

 

You so understand the timeline of events and the emotions and permissions that accompanied the million steps you took down the slippery slope to infidelity.

 

But you need to understand the "why" of your personal vulnerability, the unmet need within you, that allowed you to make so many poor choices in sequence.

 

Unless you understand your own personal "why", and this is a question that often requires IC and varies person to person, you could still be vulnerable in the future.

 

Stay strong! Stay introspecting!

[Spark1111]

PS: I so agree that the MM has his own set of issues in his deception and pursuit of the OW.

 

But the question to the OW remains: Why did you allow yourself to be deceived, and knowing or assuming you were being deceived, but too afraid to end a bad situation as to not hurt the friendship, again, why?

 

I am not being snarky here. I think you are very close to identifying your own personal vulnerability.

 

Once you identify your weakness, you are on the way to personal and lifelong empowerment.

 

And that is the true freedom and security of knowing and living a life of bettter personal choices.

[BB07]

Oh Kismetly.........Wow! :DThat was one amazing post and your insight IS brilliant as Spark said. I identify with a lot of what you wrote myself. I also think that Spark pointed out a lot of things that those of us who desire to never repeat this experience should think very deeply about, me included.

 

 

Kismetly........if I had the power I'd put this post in a sticky at the top of the forum for all OW to read........it's that insightful and that good.

 

 

Hugs.............

[woinlove]

Great post, Kismetly, and it's great you are thinking about all this.

 

But the real thing that got me started thinking about “choices” and the assumption that it’s all about the OWs poor choices, is that the biggest, baddest choice in the whole scenario is that of the married man to go outside of his relationship and lie and deceive and manipulate the OW to deliberately get them to engage in an inappropriate relationship … let’s not underestimate the power of that choice.

 

I doubt that many think it's all about the OWs poor choices, but one only has real control over oneself. So, if one doesn't want to be an OW again, it is about one's own choices.

 

I agree the MM (or MW) makes the "biggest, baddest choice". There will always be charming and clever MM looking for whatever. Some are real cads and some are men with a lot of great traits but who are behaving badly at the time. By not focussing on his marital status and his W, the OW also does not focus on his poor behavior. One would typically not be so supportive of his behavior if a man treated a friend the way he treats his W (and often even his children) during the A.

[veryconfuzed]

Wow - great post. What you say about the landscape of being in your 40s really strikes a chord with me. I just ended a 20 yr relationship w/ my husband last year, so I haven't dated since my early 20s! The landscape in my early 40s is completely different!

 

I didn't think I would/should have to ask a man point blank if he is married or has a girlfriend, BUT OBVIOUSLY I DO! MM are coming on to me right and left, but I don't want anything to do with that (especially after what I've just been through - just ended a relationship w/ a man who won't leave his live-in gf). I get the impression that many men are so dependent and insecure at this point in their lives that they will easily stay in an unhappy marriage to avoid the risk of being alone. Having an affair is the easy (cowardly) way of trying to get their needs met that aren't getting met in their marriages. (and I know MW cheat, too, it's just seems MM are so much more dependent).

[Kismetly]

I think this is about choices for the OW and the married man, it is also about respecting someone else when you know you aren't, sure it's easy to say you just didn't think about that person and it's worse for the married man, he actually gave his word to his wife that he wouldn't do such a thing in his marriage vows...........

 

 

The only way you get respect in this world is to respect others.

QUOTE]

 

Hi Peace - you're right. It's all about respect.

 

It's funny you know, I spend my entire life thinking about the impact of particular activities on third parties. It's my job and my passion. I love it, because I like to think that I am always thinking about what will happen to x clan/tribe/mountain/wetland etc if we do y .... and I failed to respect the woman who bore my lover's children.

 

I'm not really happy about what that says about me.

[Kismetly]

Very well said kismetly.

 

I have struggled the past few days with guilt, questions, sadness over the loss, and had a moment of clarity today that I am hoping carries me a long while. While I may have made a wrong choice, I am recognizing that this is probably not the first time that the wrong choice has been made by xMM (first time I put that x in front and it feels pretty good).

 

My situation seemed to follow exactly like you wrote. Befriend, things aren't good at home, we are separated, etc. I recognize that I tend to believe that people do the right thing and don't go out to knowingly hurt other people. I also recognize that I like to nurture and fix those that are hurting... I see how this can get me into major trouble in these situations.

 

I really thought about the things you said and I did choose to make the decisions I did. But, for the most part I think I try and live my life in a manner that other people would say what a great woman she is. In this situation, I slipped up. I am working on allowing me to forgive myself. I made a mistake, I did something I didn't want to do, but I can CHOOSE to not make the same mistake again.

 

Thanks for your words of clarity.

 

jewel

 

Hey sistergirl

 

How are you doing today?

 

It's painful facing up to the "choices" isn't it? I'm right there with you. I've just finished reading The Road Less Travelled, by M. Scott Peck. He hypothosises that it's only through pain that we grow. He reckons we spend a lot of energy avoiding pain - and the effect is that we avoid growth. He considers that the avoidance of pain is one of the most fundamental causes of mental illness.

 

He talks about the elements of discipline that make for psychological and spiritual health which include the ability to delay gratification, accept responsiblity for yourself and your actions and dedicate yourself to truth and balancing your life.

 

It's a good read - I recommend it.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Kismetly
I can't spell

[jwi71]

I have a question.

 

Why continually put the word choices in quotes? To me, its almost like you are trying to minimize that you, and all APs really, make the conscious choice to enter an A.

 

Not attacking you at all...just wondering why the quotes...

Edited April 27, 2011 by jwi71
spelling

[jeweleestar]

Hey sistergirl

 

How are you doing today?

 

It's painful facing up to the "choices" isn't it? I'm right there with you. I've just finished reading The Road Less Travelled, by M. Scott Peck. He hypothosises that it's only through pain that we grow. He reckons we spend a lot of energy avoiding pain - and the effect is that we avoid growth. He considers that the avoidance of pain is one of the most fundamental causes of mental illness.

 

He talks about the elements of discipline that make for psychological and spiritual health which include the ability to delay gratification, accept responsiblity for yourself and your actions and dedicate yourself to truth and balancing your life.

 

It's a good read - I recommend it.

 

Thanks for checking in. I am doing ok. I woke up and felt much better than I have in a couple of weeks, which was a nice change. I have gone up and down today which I expect. I think I must be growing a lot right now (hopefully not in the physical, widening of the hips way though:-)) since I am feeling the pain. I am looking into getting that book.

 

 

I struggle the most with the why's of the situation. I know that I tend to overthink everything and I like to have an answer. I am having to give up the hope that I will know why, and just move on. That is what is so much harder than anything else right now. I am ok with the fact that he is not for me, but why??? I am ok with him being dishonest and not caring about my feeling, but why would he do that?? I guess I need to work better at turning my brain off and be ok with not knowing.

 

Hope you are doing well today. I appreciate your thoughts.

[Kismetly]

Identify what made you vulnerable to the advances of a MM and you will never go there again. THink about it. Do you think you were the first woman he may have come on to? Were you the last? Were you the only woman he was friends with?

 

There is a school of thought that teaches a man never truly befriends a woman unless he has an attraction towards her. Do you think this is true? You can be professional colleagues, but friends who begin to discuss intimate matters, like the state of his marriage? Huge red flag.

 

Seducing a bored MM on the prowl for novelty is like shooting fish in a barrel. Pretty easy.

 

The harder question is why did you succumb where many a woman would have said yuck! Why did you have weak boundaries in this one area where you had been so proficient and on top of it all in all other areas of your life?

 

Were you lonely? Vulnerable? Needing validation? Or simply needing male attention?

 

You so understand the timeline of events and the emotions and permissions that accompanied the million steps you took down the slippery slope to infidelity.

 

But you need to understand the "why" of your personal vulnerability, the unmet need within you, that allowed you to make so many poor choices in sequence.

 

Unless you understand your own personal "why", and this is a question that often requires IC and varies person to person, you could still be vulnerable in the future.

 

Stay strong! Stay introspecting!

 

Thanks Spark. I appreciate the validation.

 

Yeah - I've still got work to do. A lot of work I think. Before this I would have said the work I did during and after my divorce gave me all the skills I'd ever need in relationships - seems the work is never done.

 

As to the "why" of my personal vulnerability - I think it's going to take a couch and some professional assistance to really get to the bottom of that!

 

thanks again.

[Kismetly]

Oh Kismetly.........Wow! :DThat was one amazing post and your insight IS brilliant as Spark said. I identify with a lot of what you wrote myself. I also think that Spark pointed out a lot of things that those of us who desire to never repeat this experience should think very deeply about, me included.

 

 

Kismetly........if I had the power I'd put this post in a sticky at the top of the forum for all OW to read........it's that insightful and that good.

 

 

Hugs.............

 

Thanks BB07 . I'm getting there. It's painful and it's tiresome and sometimes I wish I could just turn it all off - but seems you've got to take the lessons when they come! Cheers.

[Kismetly]

Great post, Kismetly, and it's great you are thinking about all this.

 

 

 

I doubt that many think it's all about the OWs poor choices, but one only has real control over oneself. So, if one doesn't want to be an OW again, it is about one's own choices.

 

I agree the MM (or MW) makes the "biggest, baddest choice". There will always be charming and clever MM looking for whatever. Some are real cads and some are men with a lot of great traits but who are behaving badly at the time. By not focussing on his marital status and his W, the OW also does not focus on his poor behavior. One would typically not be so supportive of his behavior if a man treated a friend the way he treats his W (and often even his children) during the A.

 

Thank you Woinlove for making me think about it. You've posted in that vein to me, a couple of times, and it stung ... I'm beginning to learn that the comments that sting, are those that I probably have to pay the most attention to.

 

Thanks for helping to get me here.

[Kismetly]

Wow - great post. What you say about the landscape of being in your 40s really strikes a chord with me. I just ended a 20 yr relationship w/ my husband last year, so I haven't dated since my early 20s! The landscape in my early 40s is completely different!

 

I didn't think I would/should have to ask a man point blank if he is married or has a girlfriend, BUT OBVIOUSLY I DO! MM are coming on to me right and left, but I don't want anything to do with that (especially after what I've just been through - just ended a relationship w/ a man who won't leave his live-in gf). I get the impression that many men are so dependent and insecure at this point in their lives that they will easily stay in an unhappy marriage to avoid the risk of being alone. Having an affair is the easy (cowardly) way of trying to get their needs met that aren't getting met in their marriages. (and I know MW cheat, too, it's just seems MM are so much more dependent).

 

Hi Confused

 

It's an epidemic!! :cool: they're everywhere ...

 

I was reading an article recently about how a group of women had signficantly turned around the spread of HIV/AIDS in Tanzania. One of the biggest transmission groups were wealthy and influencial MM who took young women as mistresses. It has traditionally been a pretty well accepted cultural practice - but because the men often have more than one mistress, and the young women often have their own lovers the spread of HIV/AIDS was outstripping other similar high risk groups (including truck-drivers and mining towns).

 

The government had done quite a lot of work/awareness raising/campaigning targetting the women, trying to encourage them not to go with those men - but they were pretty drab campaigns and didn't have much impact.

 

A small NGO started a campaign aimed at the women, but making fun of the men. They made up a word for the practice - I can't remember what it was - for the sake of this story we'll call them Zoombiewallas. the campaign was around "real friends don't let their friends hang out with Zoombiewallas!"

 

Over a short period of time, the name was so catchy and the sentiment was so sensible, that it caught on right throughout the country - polititians were using the term in Parliamentary debates ... like "How can we trust the Treasurer and his positon on this new Bill, we all know about him and his Zoombiewalla ways." Women were sighting Zoombiewalla husband as their reason for getting divorced.

 

Over the course of 2 years, the spread of HIV/AIDS decreased by 3% in the cities!!!

 

I'm thinking maybe we need to start a similar campaign to alert our sisters to the epidemic of the disatisfied married man!!

 

What could we call them?

[Kismetly]

I have a question.

 

Why continually put the word choices in quotes? To me, its almost like you are trying to minimize that you, and all APs really, make the conscious choice to enter an A.

 

Not attacking you at all...just wondering why the quotes...

 

Hi Jwi - not trying to minimise it at all - quite the opposite in fact. It's poor grammar, but focussed my thinking while I was writing it.

[fooled once]

Great post and very well said! :bunny:

[Kismetly]

So, I made a choice to call him back after his 3rd or 4th message.

 

Yep, I know I could have gone EXTREME-NO-CONTACT. Blocked the numbers, eaten the hard copies ...electronically completely deleted him from my life. But I hadn't. I didn't. That's a brave and committed approach - and commitment has never been one of my specialties.

 

I guess I was hoping he'd call. I don't want it to be over. Despite the fact I know cognitively that he is not healthy, I know he's got heaps of work to do to figure out what he wants to do about his family, I know he's treated his partner attrociously and I know what that means about him. Despite all that - I'm somehow not brave enough to make the choice to give him up completely. Or is it that I still hold hope? Rather than be hopeLESS ... Hope of what? Hope that he'll magically undergo 5 years of personal and emotional growth in the space of 6 months and be ready to have a long term, emotionally healthy relationship for the rest of our lives??? :rolleyes: Like that's going to happen ...:o

 

And what the heck does that say about how unhealthy i am????

 

So, I've been talking to him again. It's a long distance emotional affair. I haven't agreed to meet with him this month, but we're talking and texting again - like it always was. In some ways I think it's this part of the relationship that most meets his needs. I think it's been a long time since anyone was interested in what he's doing, and I'm not only interested, but it's my thing too - so he gets that validation in what he's doing that I think men really crave that sort of validation.

 

And there's this little evil voice in the back of my head that says "what's it matter, it's not like you're doing anything else, just go with it. Its not like you're sleeping with him, he's just like any other friend." The dark path IS seductive .....

[whichwayisup]

The dark path IS seductive .....

 

But by your own choice, willingly.

 

You haven't hit your rock bottom yet.

 

Anyway, shield your heart.. This is far from over.