Moving forward with plan to leave our spouses

[Cabin]

Hi!

I just wrote this page long post, then it was deleted, so I am going to re-type a much abbreviated version.

 

I'm early 30s with one small child, married 8 years, together 10. AP is late 30s with three small children, married 9 years, together 15.

 

Affair started 18 months or so ago as a work friendship, then emotional affair for 6 months, then physical about a year ago.

 

We are each in counselling with our respective partners, but we both want to separate and eventually be together (but avoid the damage of the A being outed).

 

Both of us aren't getting what we want in our marriages. I am married to a very nice nice man who I have outgrown in every way possibly, most notably professionally. We have zero sexual chemistry (though he is quite attractive) and our intimate life has been almost non-existent throughout our entire relationship. I was willing to accept that I guess, until I met AP and found out what real desire/attraction/chemistry could be. Now I know that my sexual desire is directly correlated to my intellectual desire and I need a man who appeals to my mind in order to be ravenous physically.

 

He is married to a nice nice woman who he married out of obligation after a five year courtship and the pressure to "**** or get off the pot". Plus he was almost 30 and he thought it was time to get married and have kids, like everyone else. He is sad to admit that he has never been in love with his wife, not even in the beginning, but he does have love for her as she is a wonderful mother.

 

It was his idea to start making moves towards our ability to be legitimate: marriage counselling for each of us, separating if each of our partners could do so amicably, then a period of singleness before we start dating publicly.

 

We also work together so I would need to transfer to a different department at that time, likely in 12-18 months.

 

He is fiercely protective of not having our relationship held up to the scrutiny and judgement of an "affair" as he feels this is much more than an illicit romance.

 

I know that an A is not desirable, but we weren't looking for it.

 

People are quick to dismiss As because of the cliches: finally met my "soulmate", we're "perfect" for each other, it's "destiny", finally someone who truly "understands me", etc... but I think those are the exact same cliches that abound when single people meet and eventually marry. Everyone loves a good romantic story (even when they're full of cliches) if it's two single people meeting. But as soon as it's an A, everyone is so quick to dismiss that it could be real love in some cases.

 

I'm looking for ideas and insights from you. Please do not respond just to berate me. Critical insights are helpful of course.

 

Thanks!

"Cabin"

[Breezy Trousers]

Hi!

We are each in counselling with our respective partners, but we both want to separate and eventually be together (but avoid the damage of the A being outed).

 

Are you still in contact with each other while going through counseling with your spouses? If so, you are demonstrating you are more committed to the affair than the marriage. Are you lying to the therapist and spouses about the affair? If so, therapy is pointless.

 

Both of us aren't getting what we want in our marriages.

 

Are you giving anything to your marriages? I believe in the saying, "The only thing you can be lacking in any situation is what you are not giving."

 

 

 

 

He is married to a nice nice woman who he married out of obligation after a five year courtship and the pressure to "**** or get off the pot". Plus he was almost 30 and he thought it was time to get married and have kids, like everyone else. He is sad to admit that he has never been in love with his wife, not even in the beginning, but he does have love for her as she is a wonderful mother.

 

You cannot possibly know if this is true. This is what he is telling you. Also, after doing divorce work for several years, I can tell you that everyone revises the history of their marriages when in a crisis.

 

It was his idea to start making moves towards our ability to be legitimate: marriage counselling for each of us, separating if each of our partners could do so amicably, then a period of singleness before we start dating publicly.

 

You sound like you are both very, very concerned with the appearances and image, even to the degree of manipulating and deceiving others.

 

 

He is fiercely protective of not having our relationship held up to the scrutiny and judgement of an "affair" as he feels this is much more than an illicit romance.

Well, isn't it an affair?. Whether it's develops into something more than an illicit romance can only be determined years from now. Sometimes it happens, but in the majority of the cases it does not, especially when lots of baggage is carried into the new relationship -- damaged families, lack of trust, projected guilt. That tends to be the reality of it.

 

I know that an A is not desirable, but we weren't looking for it.

 

No one does.

 

People are quick to dismiss As because of the cliches: finally met my "soulmate", we're "perfect" for each other, it's "destiny", finally someone who truly "understands me", etc... but I think those are the exact same cliches that abound when single people meet and eventually marry. Everyone loves a good romantic story (even when they're full of cliches) if it's two single people meeting. But as soon as it's an A, everyone is so quick to dismiss that it could be real love in some cases.

 

Affairs involve manipulating and deceiving others and secrecy, so affairs can't be compared to typical romances. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings here. I'm stating facts. Also, if you read these threads, you'll see that many of these affairs crash and burn. All? No, not at all. However, the odds aren't in your favor, even if you leave your spouses and move in together -- which still remains to be seen.

 

I'm looking for ideas and insights from you. Please do not respond just to berate me. Critical insights are helpful of course.

 

I don't judge you. It's possible this is meant to be. But I'm realistic. I suggest you read as many of these threads as you can. Institute no contact for a period of time and get serious about honest counseling with your spouses. If you still want to be together, it will happen. Just make sure HE makes the changes first. Don't go out on a limb. Recognize that you will both need lots of counseling to get through learning to deal with a real relationship -- i.e., a day-to-day, grounded, out-in-open relationship -- rather than a romance made all the more exciting through intermittent exposure and secrecy. You will likely have to deal with years of guilt, lack of trust, in addition to (hopefully) love. It won't be easy and will take lots of work. If you aren't willing to work on your present marriages in counseling, it does not bode well for any future. Just being honest here.

 

Recognize that much of your certainty can clouded by love fog. Choices made in love fog can have serious consequences for you, your spouses and, certainly, your small children. And, back to your concern about your image -- yes, the truth will come out and people will judge you. That's the way of it, like it or not.

 

Read Susan Cheever's "Desire." It's a compassionate memoir written by a woman who married three times and had marriage #2 and #3 come out of affairs. It helped me when I was dealing with this issue.

 

Good luck to you.

Edited May 1, 2011 by Breezy Trousers

[xxoo]

We are each in counselling with our respective partners, but we both want to separate and eventually be together (but avoid the damage of the A being outed).

 

Under what pretense are you in counseling with your partners?

 

If you know you want to end your marriages, why don't you move forward in that direction, rather than putting your partners through marriage counseling when you are already checked out?

 

This sentence stood out:

 

"separating if each of our partners could do so amicably"

 

If they can't?

 

He is fiercely protective of not having our relationship held up to the scrutiny and judgement of an "affair" as he feels this is much more than an illicit romance.

 

I can see how he would prefer it not to be known that your relationship started as an affair. But the reality is the reality, and people will likely put 2 and 2 together. Being an adult means standing up and owning the choices you make.

[Breezy Trousers]

Hi!

It was his idea to start making moves towards our ability to be legitimate: marriage counselling for each of us, separating if each of our partners could do so amicably, then a period of singleness before we start dating publicly.

 

Cabin, want to address this line --

 

If you institute NC for 6 months and try sincere, honest therapy with your families ... if you then decide to separate and spend another year alone, grieving the relationship .... and then another year dating on your own ... then your MM is probably right. Unfortunately, few would ever consider this route. Affairs are all about immediate gratification and little concern for others and consequences. I am speaking from experience here, as I struggled for a long time ... It's a tough situation.

[jwi71]

Hi!

 

Welcome...and sorry you are here.

 

Affair started 18 months or so ago as a work friendship, then emotional affair for 6 months, then physical about a year ago.

 

Pretty normal - a great many A's begin at work.

 

We are each in counselling with our respective partners, but we both want to separate and eventually be together (but avoid the damage of the A being outed).

 

Why?

Why are you wasting everyone's time and money on this?

You should be hiring a lawyer, not a MC.

 

All you are doing is, well, wasting time and money. Look up a good D lawyer and file. What are you waiting for?

 

After filing, determine who will move out, divvy up assets, settle on child custody and visitation then find a good child therapist (his/her world is about to be turned upside down).

 

Nothing to it really. Just curious why you are "working on your marriage" instead of filing for D....

 

Both of us aren't getting what we want in our marriages.

 

Clearly. So, get out of it. Happens every day.

 

It was his idea to start making moves towards our ability to be legitimate: marriage counselling for each of us, separating if each of our partners could do so amicably, then a period of singleness before we start dating publicly.

 

Sounds good on paper. I don't get the MC part though...why?

If you have both decided to leave, why go through the charade of MC?

Just file for D.

 

We also work together so I would need to transfer to a different department at that time, likely in 12-18 months.

 

Are married persons not allowed to work in the same department there?

And, I'm willing to bet your A isn't a secret at the office either - they never are.

 

He is fiercely protective of not having our relationship held up to the scrutiny and judgement of an "affair" as he feels this is much more than an illicit romance.

 

A little late for that. The truth has the damnedest way of coming out. But, you just MAY be able to conceal it all. What's the plan if there is a D-day? What is the expected fallout?

 

I know that an A is not desirable, but we weren't looking for it.

 

Doesn't matter, but its interesting how you were BOTH happy in your M's until the A - then, well, its time to D and be with each other. What often happens is the A makes the participants see the M as far worse than it already is.

 

What does your MC say about it? I mean, you ARE discussing the A in MC with your H right? Well, come to think of it, did the MC ask if you or your H were having an A? If he/she did, how did you answer?

 

When your parents ask you why you are divorcing what will you say?

What will HE say? IS your disdain for your H so great you will lie to him, your MC and everyone in world to obfuscate the TRUE reason for D? How can he (your H) improve the M when you continually LIE about its decline (your A).

 

People are quick to dismiss As because of the cliches: finally met my "soulmate", we're "perfect" for each other, it's "destiny", finally someone who truly "understands me", etc... but I think those are the exact same cliches that abound when single people meet and eventually marry. Everyone loves a good romantic story (even when they're full of cliches) if it's two single people meeting. But as soon as it's an A, everyone is so quick to dismiss that it could be real love in some cases.

 

I get what you are saying. I just happen to wholeheartedly disagree. IF you and your AP were to actually file for D and have 50 years together - you would be the exception, not the rule. And some of that is born out of what I said above, an A tends to discolor the M in the worst possible way. You hinted at this yourself by saying YOU weren't looking for an A and it wasn't until IN the A that D came up.

 

Above all, remember the man you are leaving. And take a good hard look at the man you are running towards...an A is NOT a relationship with all the problems and "reality" a "normal open R" has. Its a healthy dose of fantasy.

 

Its a dirty little secret your MM wants hidden at all costs.

 

Last question if I may...who files for D first? You or him?

[whichwayisup]

This is a painful situation and it's going to be really difficult to blend the kids, you being stepmom to his children and him being stepdad to your kids..

 

Your affair is based on fantasy feelings in an affair setting and neither of you have had to deal with "real life issues" and problems, the bad stuff in life.

 

The fair and proper way to do this is, end your affair with him, no more sneaking off and having sex, spending time with him UNTIL your marriages are over and you're both divorced. You both will need ALOT of time for all the adjustments and changes, not only for yourselves, but MOST OF ALL, the kids invovled. On paper, you think "great we can end our marriages and then be together forever since we love one another" but it ain't that easy.

 

You both need to tell your spouses the truth. To pretend and manipuate this so they don't find out about the A, will blow up in your face(s) one day..

[whichwayisup]

Here's something else to think of.. What if you do end up divorcing and your MM decides he can't divorce? He changes his mind along the way. Are you okay being alone with NEITHER man? It sounds more like if this MM wasn't in the picture, you'd still be married and keeping your family intact.

[Breezy Trousers]

Welcome...and sorry you are here.

 

 

 

Pretty normal - a great many A's begin at work.

 

 

Are married persons not allowed to work in the same department there?

And, I'm willing to bet your A isn't a secret at the office either - they never are.

 

 

 

I'm never shocked by affairs at work but am always amazed at how affair partners are the last to know that everyone already knows about them.

 

 

Cabin, last post before I go --

 

I'm bothered by "separating if each of our partners could do so amicably" line. I can't see *any* partner with children feeling amicable about being betrayed. Why is MM making this a contingency? I'd be wary ...

[carhill]

Hi OP, welcome to LS.

 

My suggestion would be to attend private IC and work through your issues.

 

Concurrently, limit your contact with MM to professional work contact only. This facilitates your IC and MC. It doesn't change the reality of your 18 month EA/PA, but does show effort to work on yourself alone. A marriage is the product of two people, so yours is the product of what both you and your H put into it. Each of you is responsible for your part. If it isn't healthy and isn't reconcilable, own your part and accept your responsibility for ending it.

 

Is this an 'exit affair'? Perhaps. IC should help you clarify such matters. Can you divorce your H and accept being alone? Can you be alone? More fodder for IC.

 

Please be more specific about your plan. Timelines are helpful. Milestones are helpful.

 

Example:

I'll start IC this week.

 

If IC indicates, after a period of time, say two months of weekly sessions, that separation and divorce is healthy, I will file for divorce and seek a separate domicile to live alone pending divorce. I will work proactively wrt child visitation and custody arrangements.

 

I will decide what actions from MM are indicative of parity and sincere intent 'to be together'. Once we're both clearly separated, pending divorce, as evidenced by living arrangements and legal aspects, I'll decide whether I wish to continue this relationship or not. If not, I'll communicate this to MM. If so, I'll formulate my part of the 'plan' to be together and communicate that to MM, seeking his feedback and his 'plan' and deciding whether that path is healthy.

 

 

Your plan is your own. Clarity in the plan and in your reasoning is essential IMO. Effective therapy can help you. If you've had the kind of M you appear to be alluding to, it's changed you. There's a lot of unhealthiness to un-do. IC can help you delineate between 'affair fog' and legitimate incompatibilities in your M, as re-writing marital history is common while in affair fog. Get clarity and get moving. Good luck

[TurboGirl]

OP,

I know that you believe your MM and trust him and want to be with him. But sometimes people say things that they WISH could be true, not what is happening IRL. Fine all well & good, you can lay out a plan to be together, but there is a huge possibility that it might not happen.

 

Are you so miserable with your H that you would be OK on your own, completely without a guy?

 

So you are ahead of your H professionally. Does that mean he is not a good man and not worthy of you? What effort have you made to keep that love alive, and the fire burning, so to speak. I'm not saying this to be mean, but to make you think.

 

Also, don't you feel that attending marriage counseling with the plan in your head of already leaving is not fair to your H in the slightest... not to mention time consuming and expensive? If you are going to MC, you need to commit & go NC with your MM (and likewise for him). Do you want to wake up one day, alone, no MM and no H and think: Geez, I should have given it a shot with the MC for real.

 

12-18 months is a long time and alot can happen. A lot of stress, lot of drama and people can change their minds.

[SoMovinOn]

AP is late 30s with three small children...

... I need a man who appeals to my mind...

... He is sad to admit that he has never been in love with his wife, not even in the beginning...

 

What is it that appeals to you about the intellect of a man who would marry and have 3 kids with a woman he never loved?

 

 

He is fiercely protective of not having our relationship held up to the scrutiny and judgement of an "affair"...

 

One would imagine. He doesn't want others to know what he is doing and what type of person he truly is, right. That's the paradox of having an affair - in engaging in an affair, both people involved prove their willingness to be deceitful, lie and hurt others.

[whichwayisup]

He is fiercely protective of not having our relationship held up to the scrutiny and judgement of an "affair"...

 

Because he doesn't what to be the 'bad guy' in everybody's eyes. Wife, kids, mom/dad/siblings, extended family, inlaws, friends, neighbours, and co-workers.

 

Though life doesn't work that way..He IS the bad eye, or soon will be in his in wife's eyes. It's one thing to want out of your marriage because it isn't working, or if he was unhappy, but he NEVER decided to get divorced.. That is, until you and him had an affair..18 months later of living a big fat lie, now he wants out. Same goes with you. You're gonna have to deal with the fallout and reaction.

 

Come clean and own it all. Both you and him. IF you two are TRULY INLOVE and want a life together, just tell the truth and STOP the lying, sneaking around.

[Cabin]

Are you still in contact with each other while going through counseling with your spouses? If so, you are demonstrating you are more committed to the affair than the marriage. Are you lying to the therapist and spouses about the affair? If so, therapy is pointless.

 

Thanks Breezy... I agree the therapy might be pointless, although it is good for my husband to go and he needs IC so this might be positive for him. He has his own set of very gloomy issues: gambling addiction, alcohol/drugs, unemployment, pessimism about life in general, and total helplessness about actually being able to do anything to make his own life better.

 

Are you giving anything to your marriages? I believe in the saying, "The only thing you can be lacking in any situation is what you are not giving."

 

No, admittedly neither of us really is. But neither of us really were before either. I have considered that this is an Exit A for each of us.

 

Affairs involve manipulating and deceiving others and secrecy, so affairs can't be compared to typical romances. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings here. I'm stating facts. Also, if you read these threads, you'll see that many of these affairs crash and burn. All? No, not at all. However, the odds aren't in your favor, even if you leave your spouses and move in together -- which still remains to be seen.

 

I have considered this. In my own small world, I personally know seven couples that married after leaving their spouses for their AP. Those relationships are still in tact, most for well over 15-20 years. A few of them are more recent, in the last 5-10 years. I wonder if people who successfully take a "managed exit" approach and who end up with their AP are less represented on forums such as this one because they'd simply have less need for this kind of community. Is it not possible that forums like these are over-represented by situations that don't work out?

 

Thank you for your reply, BTW.

 

 

Under what pretense are you in counseling with your partners? If you know you want to end your marriages, why don't you move forward in that direction, rather than putting your partners through marriage counseling when you are already checked out?

This sentence stood out:

"separating if each of our partners could do so amicably"

If they can't?

 

Then one or both of us will stay put in our marriages. Neither of us wants fighting or tension. But if our partners are amicable and we can move forward positively, then we will. He has more to lose than I do. My H already wants to separate from me because he too is very disatisfied with our M. In fact, I think our M was a timebomb ticking. The A may have expedited my awareness of this, but my H has been aware of its defects for much longer. My H and I will be able to have an amicable split and a truly positive co-parenting situation. My AP may not be so lucky.

[Cabin]

Welcome...and sorry you are here.

 

Nothing to it really. Just curious why you are "working on your marriage" instead of filing for D....

 

I think we both want to know that we did try to work on our marriages and that we approached our relationship pragmatically rather than foolishly.

 

Are married persons not allowed to work in the same department there?

And, I'm willing to bet your A isn't a secret at the office either - they never are.

 

It wouldn't be healthy for either of us to work in the same building as a couple. It was my suggestion to transfer.

 

 

Above all, remember the man you are leaving. And take a good hard look at the man you are running towards....

 

My H is a very nice man. But I have always loved him in a platonic way... this is not revisionist history, I simply have never been passionate or uniquely intimately connected to him. We could go the rest of our lives together and I would never need to be hugged, kissed, loved, or made love to by him. He deserves to be in a marriage with all of the above, and so do I.

 

Last question if I may...who files for D first? You or him?

 

We have not discussed it. We have both said that if he ends up divorced while I reconcile, he will be happy for me. And though I will be sorely disappointed if the reverse happens (where I D and he stays put), it won't change the fact that my M is not fulfilling and not worth keeping. I would likely be happier single.

 

Again, thanks for all your comments.

[Cabin]

Here's something else to think of.. What if you do end up divorcing and your MM decides he can't divorce? He changes his mind along the way. Are you okay being alone with NEITHER man? It sounds more like if this MM wasn't in the picture, you'd still be married and keeping your family intact.

 

I was content to stay in my dead marriage not knowing any better. I was early early 20s when I met my spouse -- too young to know anything really -- and I have the personality to just sort of plug along.

 

It was only a matter of time though before these issues came up. My H is unhappy too.

 

If I do end up divorced, and MM is not available, then I will eventually date other people.

 

I am afraid to be single for a few reasons, but none of them are worth keeping a marriage for... mostly they have to do with finding someone to help me do "guy" stuff around the house. But I can hire someone for that. Keeping a M intact for some services that I can hire out? Not a very compelling reason, you know? And my H deserves to be more than just my lawn-care and snow-removal service.

 

I want a partner who "gets" me at my level and who shares my interests and ideas. My H deserves the same. I suppose if the A didn't happen, you're right that I wouldn't be considering D at this time. In fact, at this time I'd probably be trying for another baby with my H. In some ways it is a blessing in disguise that this happened when it did, because I'd hate to bring another baby into the world and into a relationship that is so unstable.

[Cabin]

OP,

So you are ahead of your H professionally. Does that mean he is not a good man and not worthy of you? What effort have you made to keep that love alive, and the fire burning, so to speak. I'm not saying this to be mean, but to make you think.

 

Also, don't you feel that attending marriage counseling with the plan in your head of already leaving is not fair to your H in the slightest... not to mention time consuming and expensive?/

 

Hi TurboGirl,

My H is a good man, yes, but his lack of ambition and drive is in such direct contrast and opposition to my own career path. I'm a huge upward trajectory, and he's on a downward spiral. In the past five years as my passion for my career has blossomed - making me a happier, more fulfilled person overall - he's been steadily regressing, resentful of my position and the perception that I get more from my job than I do from him. Well, in some ways that is true. He openly admits to our MC that he would like a 1950s dynamic again... an existence that would all but obliterate my independence and identity.

 

Admittedly I haven't worked hard to make our marriage much better. I've just steadily grown away from him. I take responsibility for that.

 

And when we began MC, it was with the intention of working on our marriage. But months have rolled on and things between us have gotten worse as issues have presented themselves in counselling, and now I think I am just going through the counselling motion to say I did it.

 

I'm not proud of myself.

[Cabin]

Always a pleasure, you're welcome.

 

Porkrinds,

Thank you for taking the time to thoughtfully share your opinions and ideas on the various dynamics of my situation. Because this is a forum for OW/OM, I am really only looking for input from those who can empathize with helpful intentions, so I won't take the time to respond to you, but I did read your post.

Thank you anyway

Cabin

[TurboGirl]

OP,

So you are ahead of your H professionally. Does that mean he is not a good man and not worthy of you? What effort have you made to keep that love alive, and the fire burning, so to speak. I'm not saying this to be mean, but to make you think.

 

Also, don't you feel that attending marriage counseling with the plan in your head of already leaving is not fair to your H in the slightest... not to mention time consuming and expensive?/

 

Hi TurboGirl,

My H is a good man, yes, but his lack of ambition and drive is in such direct contrast and opposition to my own career path. I'm a huge upward trajectory, and he's on a downward spiral. In the past five years as my passion for my career has blossomed - making me a happier, more fulfilled person overall - he's been steadily regressing, resentful of my position and the perception that I get more from my job than I do from him. Well, in some ways that is true. He openly admits to our MC that he would like a 1950s dynamic again... an existence that would all but obliterate my independence and identity.

 

Admittedly I haven't worked hard to make our marriage much better. I've just steadily grown away from him. I take responsibility for that.

 

And when we began MC, it was with the intention of working on our marriage. But months have rolled on and things between us have gotten worse as issues have presented themselves in counselling, and now I think I am just going through the counselling motion to say I did it.

 

I'm not proud of myself.

 

Cabin

I read what you wrote to another poster... and after reading this... I think you might be happier even single! I know for me, being married to someone who was not ambitious and not supporting... just dragging me down, etc., I would leave. My exhusband... divorced him back in 1995 - was very successful but threatened by every single thing I did to advance my career. Every single triumph - he put me down and was resentful. yeah, I know it gets old. Your H is supposed (!!! in a perfect world) to be happy for you and support you when you are happy in your chosen career.

 

I think your H might be needing more help with his other issues, in addition to MC.

 

As long as you are aware that things might change with the MM - if something changes in his dynamic with this W and suddenly he feels obligated to stay & work on the M... and it sounds like you are aware of that, and would be ok to strike out on your own, and quite possibly a happier person as a result of having the space to fly with your career and without the negative input from a resentful spouse. That negative input alone can have a very devastating impact on your self esteem.

 

Hang in there & please keep us updated with your progress!

[Spark1111]

Cabin, excuse me if I missed this, but it all starts with informing your spouses of the intent to divorce, whether you choose to disclose the affair, or not.

 

Talking of timelines, transfers, and a future together means nothing if you two do not start the ball rolling by starting the divorce.

 

No offense, but talk is cheap.

 

When do you intend to tell your spouses? Counseling is all well and good, but people can stay in counseling for YEARS. If you wait for this news to be greeted with happiness, well, IMO, that is a pipe dream, that may NEVER happen.

 

You need to decide your future, with or without MM. If you are ready to leave and end your marriage, then do so.

 

If MM is serious about a future with you, then he will do so too. It seems to me that everything has been talked about and debated except this very necessary conversation with both your spouses.

 

It is time to have it. It will not get easier or better. It is just time to take the first step.

 

You sound ready. Is your MM?

[hope224]

Cabin,

I really am rooting for you:) I was surprised to learn of how many couples you know that worked out that started as an A! Gives me a little hope too. I really hope this works out for you and that you are happy.

[Breezy Trousers]

 

I have considered this. In my own small world, I personally know seven couples that married after leaving their spouses for their AP. Those relationships are still in tact, most for well over 15-20 years. A few of them are more recent, in the last 5-10 years. I wonder if people who successfully take a "managed exit" approach and who end up with their AP are less represented on forums such as this one because they'd simply have less need for this kind of community. Is it not possible that forums like these are over-represented by situations that don't work out?

 

Thank you for your reply, BTW.

 

 

You're welcome, Cabin.

 

Wow. It sounds as though you're in a miserable marriage, esp. if married to someone with a gambling addiction. I'm truly sorry about that. I understand how it happened. It doesn't justify your choice to sleep with a married father of another family, but you've acknowledged as much. I'm just sad that an affair had to be your exit strategy, because it leaves deep wounds for the people left behind that never really go away, even after many years. Affair partners leave in a happy love fog and never have to experience that side of the story (hopefully) and they also get to plan a comfortable exit strategy for themselves. The nice partners and kids left behind get no such luxury. It's unfair, but who said life was fair, right? Sigh...

 

You know a lot of successfully married people after affairs, which is unusual. I absolutely do think it's possible. After all, Joanne Woodward & Paul Newman's marriage is held as an iconic standard in our culture, and that began as an affair in which Newman left a wife and two or three small children for Woodward.

 

However, I think it's important to remember that we NEVER know the secrets of everyone's marriage, even in marriages that appear successful on the outside. Sometimes people stay together just to prove to everyone they were "right" to leave their first marriages ....or they pay such a heavy cost to leave the first marriage that they swear never to do it again and end up spending an entire meal in a restaurant never talking to each other or having serial affairs while in the second marriage. At work, I've heard of several very long-term second marriages between higher-ups and subordinates which grew out of office affairs. The irony is that, years later, the second marriages are still intact, but the same men are known to be hitting on the staff at work and having affairs. Their wives are said to be unhappy, but afraid to leave the security, so they put up a happy face on the situation. Who knows? My point is, it's a risk. What appears to be successful sometimes absolutely isn't. And sometimes it absolutely is. But you already know this, so I'm just singing to the choir.

 

Thanks for being a good sport about our input on such a controversial subject.

[fooled once]

Are you still in contact with each other while going through counseling with your spouses? If so, you are demonstrating you are more committed to the affair than the marriage. Are you lying to the therapist and spouses about the affair? If so, therapy is pointless.

 

Are you giving anything to your marriages? I believe in the saying, "The only thing you can be lacking in any situation is what you are not giving."

 

You cannot possibly know if this is true. This is what he is telling you. Also, after doing divorce work for several years, I can tell you that everyone revises the history of their marriages when in a crisis.

 

You sound like you are both very, very concerned with the appearances and image, even to the degree of manipulating and deceiving others.

 

Well, isn't it an affair?. Whether it's develops into something more than an illicit romance can only be determined years from now. Sometimes it happens, but in the majority of the cases it does not, especially when lots of baggage is carried into the new relationship -- damaged families, lack of trust, projected guilt. That tends to be the reality of it.

 

No one does.

 

Affairs involve manipulating and deceiving others and secrecy, so affairs can't be compared to typical romances. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings here. I'm stating facts. Also, if you read these threads, you'll see that many of these affairs crash and burn. All? No, not at all. However, the odds aren't in your favor, even if you leave your spouses and move in together -- which still remains to be seen.

 

I don't judge you. It's possible this is meant to be. But I'm realistic. I suggest you read as many of these threads as you can. Institute no contact for a period of time and get serious about honest counseling with your spouses. If you still want to be together, it will happen. Just make sure HE makes the changes first. Don't go out on a limb. Recognize that you will both need lots of counseling to get through learning to deal with a real relationship -- i.e., a day-to-day, grounded, out-in-open relationship -- rather than a romance made all the more exciting through intermittent exposure and secrecy. You will likely have to deal with years of guilt, lack of trust, in addition to (hopefully) love. It won't be easy and will take lots of work. If you aren't willing to work on your present marriages in counseling, it does not bode well for any future. Just being honest here.

 

Recognize that much of your certainty can clouded by love fog. Choices made in love fog can have serious consequences for you, your spouses and, certainly, your small children. And, back to your concern about your image -- yes, the truth will come out and people will judge you. That's the way of it, like it or not.

 

Read Susan Cheever's "Desire." It's a compassionate memoir written by a woman who married three times and had marriage #2 and #3 come out of affairs. It helped me when I was dealing with this issue.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Great post Breezy!!

 

Cabin, want to address this line --

 

If you institute NC for 6 months and try sincere, honest therapy with your families ... if you then decide to separate and spend another year alone, grieving the relationship .... and then another year dating on your own ... then your MM is probably right. Unfortunately, few would ever consider this route. Affairs are all about immediate gratification and little concern for others and consequences. I am speaking from experience here, as I struggled for a long time ... It's a tough situation.

 

Yep. I would be willing to bet if they quit having sex and quit texting/talking all the time, the A will die its death.

 

I think it is incredibly hypocritical to go to MC when you are involved in an active affair. You are wasting everyone's time. You are making a mockery of counseling.

 

I can never understand the rewriting of history. Now you never really loved your H or were turned on by him. So why did you marry him? Do you live in a country where you must marry by 25? WHO gets married to someone they don't love? And the MM? He felt obligated to marry a woman he dated for 5 years? Gimme a break. That's silly. He didn't care for her, but he had sex at a minimum of 3 times -- and probably a lot more.

 

I always find it interesting when the OW/MM claim that their spouse doesn't like/want sex. Who knew there were so many women out there who became frigid as soon as a ring gets on their finger Don't buy it for a second.

 

And please do not use the "we werent' looking for an affair" line. What exactly were you doing confiding personal things with a married man? Why were you telling a male co-worker of your marriage issues? After you two kissed for the first time, that should have been a wake up call to STOP before heading right into a sexual affair. But you both knew what you were doing. It didn't sneak up on you nor did you accidently have sex. It was deliberate, planned and executed. You both had to come up with excuses of where you were, what you were doing and had to ensure neither of your spouses would see any signs of a sexual romp.

 

I know you want to believe that what you have now is this magical love that transcends all rhyme and reason. It probably isn't.

 

I am a little disgusted by the whole "we will divorce if our partners are amicable." So if either of your spouses decide they won't be amicable, you will just carry on with the affair? You make it sound like you and the MM haven't done anything wrong. You make it sound like you two are above board with everything and want to POO POO anyone daring to make the judgment that you both are cheaters.

 

Do you really not think both of your spouses won't put 2 and 2 together that you and he weren't having an affair after you are together after the divorce.

 

I think the whole wanting to be out in the open and not having a secret affair is just pillow talk. If either of you were really serious, you wouldn't be here over a year after the affair started still sneaking around. You wouldn't be in marriage counseling pretending to give your marriage another shot. You both are acting like you are entitled to be in an affair because you both made decisions to get married to people you don't even really like.

 

I hope his wife and your H both figure out what you two are doing. I hope they OUT your affair - to your place of employment, to friends and family. Why? Because you both have treated them disrespectfully and then put them both through the charade of marriage counseling all the while never really wanting to fix your marriages. That is just cold and mean.

 

Tell your spouse so he can find someone worthy of him. Tell him so he can move on and make plans for HIS life instead of you and the MM making plans for your spouses.

 

Man up (you and the MM) and be HONEST with your spouses and set them free.

 

Most single people in relationships don't sneak around, don't lie to others, don't hurt others when they date. You and the MM also are not really dating. You and he have no idea right now of real life dating. You don't have to deal with daily life stuff; all you two are concerned about right now is yourselves.

 

Divorce and then go be with the MM. But set your H free and be honest. Stop the lying and the manipulation.

[Holding-On]

OP,

So you are ahead of your H professionally. Does that mean he is not a good man and not worthy of you? What effort have you made to keep that love alive, and the fire burning, so to speak. I'm not saying this to be mean, but to make you think.

 

Also, don't you feel that attending marriage counseling with the plan in your head of already leaving is not fair to your H in the slightest... not to mention time consuming and expensive?/

 

Cabin

I read what you wrote to another poster... and after reading this... I think you might be happier even single! I know for me, being married to someone who was not ambitious and not supporting... just dragging me down, etc., I would leave. My exhusband... divorced him back in 1995 - was very successful but threatened by every single thing I did to advance my career. Every single triumph - he put me down and was resentful. yeah, I know it gets old. Your H is supposed (!!! in a perfect world) to be happy for you and support you when you are happy in your chosen career.

 

I think your H might be needing more help with his other issues, in addition to MC.

 

As long as you are aware that things might change with the MM - if something changes in his dynamic with this W and suddenly he feels obligated to stay & work on the M... and it sounds like you are aware of that, and would be ok to strike out on your own, and quite possibly a happier person as a result of having the space to fly with your career and without the negative input from a resentful spouse. That negative input alone can have a very devastating impact on your self esteem.

 

Hang in there & please keep us updated with your progress!

 

I concur with Turbo here. It sounds like your husband has a lot of baggage (gambling, alcohol, negativity) despite your picture of him as a "nice" guy. I understand doing couples counselling with him as it probably is the one way to get him to start working on these issues of his and work toward co-parenting.

Have you considered making him aware of your intention to work toward co-parenting together? I think that MC would be the perfect time to admit that you have come to the firm conclusion that you just cannot be married anymore and would like to work on parenting together while living separately. This gives him a heads up.

 

And, like Turbo, I also warn against counting too heavily on your MM to pull through. He has 3 kids to your one and probably will need to shell out major child support plus not see them as frequently or conveniently. If his wife is this nice nice woman then as the career driven partner the option of getting sex on the side while having a partner to do the laundry and child care and so forth is simply going to seem a better option whether he realizes it consciously or not.

Unlike you, your MM doesn't really have anything to complain about with his spouse other than her being blah. Whereas you have some real reasons to leave.

Are you ready to go it alone?

If so I think you should focus on that and try to limit contact with your MM to minimize the chances of a d-day that will negatively impact your working relationship with your soon to be ex husband.

 

That is my ten cents.

[Cabin]

Cabin,

I really am rooting for you:) I was surprised to learn of how many couples you know that worked out that started as an A! Gives me a little hope too. I really hope this works out for you and that you are happy.

 

Thank you Hope!

 

Interestingly, I was asked out for a drink by a female co-worker/friend the other day. She doesn't work in my building, but she oversees a lot of the projects I work on, and she is about ten years my senior. She knows that my M is rocky right now, and so she took me out to talk to me about her experience. At 31 she was married for seven years to a man she had outgrown in every way. She met another married man at work. She didn't come out and disclose the nature of their involvement (physical or not) but she said that they each made plans to leave their marriages and be together. Out of respect for their spouses they created some distance between themselves while they each attended marriage counselling. Then they each separated from their spouses. They married a year later and have been married for ten years. She said that they have been happily married for ten years, and that she knows they both made exactly the right choice. There was no looking back for them.

 

She also mentioned that, since her own experience with an A, she's become acutely aware of just how many relationships do start that way, but many people simply are not aware. In her case, they were never discovered, and they were very discreet and respectful at work, so they've never been assigned the negativity associated with an A.

 

I feel it necessary to qualify that this woman is not some cheap "flusie". She's a HIGHLY respected, wonderfully competent, beautiful, hard-working, articulate, polished woman. And her moral compass is strong! She just seems humbly wise enough to admit that none of us are masters of affairs of the heart (no pun intended) and sometimes we fall in love in less than ideal ways... but she's ten years into a very happy marriage, so I believe her.

[Breezy Trousers]

Thank you Hope!

 

Interestingly, I was asked out for a drink by a female co-worker/friend the other day. She doesn't work in my building, but she oversees a lot of the projects I work on, and she is about ten years my senior. She knows that my M is rocky right now, and so she took me out to talk to me about her experience. At 31 she was married for seven years to a man she had outgrown in every way. She met another married man at work. She didn't come out and disclose the nature of their involvement (physical or not) but she said that they each made plans to leave their marriages and be together. Out of respect for their spouses they created some distance between themselves while they each attended marriage counselling. Then they each separated from their spouses. They married a year later and have been married for ten years. She said that they have been happily married for ten years, and that she knows they both made exactly the right choice. There was no looking back for them.

 

She also mentioned that, since her own experience with an A, she's become acutely aware of just how many relationships do start that way, but many people simply are not aware. In her case, they were never discovered, and they were very discreet and respectful at work, so they've never been assigned the negativity associated with an A.

 

I feel it necessary to qualify that this woman is not some cheap "flusie". She's a HIGHLY respected, wonderfully competent, beautiful, hard-working, articulate, polished woman. And her moral compass is strong! She just seems humbly wise enough to admit that none of us are masters of affairs of the heart (no pun intended) and sometimes we fall in love in less than ideal ways... but she's ten years into a very happy marriage, so I believe her.

 

 

I'm sure it happens. I'm glad it worked out for her, truly. I did take issue with the fact your friend believed it was possible to show respect for spouses while forcing them through phoney marriage counseling after deciding to leave them anyway. That doesn't sound respectful at all.

 

To me, there seems to be a huge concern about public image underlying all of this, even with your account of your friend's experience: How do we look to everyone else? Do we look respectable? Do we look like the good guys when we leave the marriage? (My friend is "highly respected, wonderfully competent, beautiful, articulate, polished ......")

 

Also, you mention you may have even tried for another baby with an "downward spiral" addict you were unhappily married to before the affair partner came on the scene. That part confuses me, too.