Moving forward with plan to leave our spouses

[Anna101]

Hi Cabin,

 

My r/shp started as an affair but we are happily together now with a baby.

 

It is possible, bit was only possible once we cut all the crap, he left, he was honest etc.

 

His WHOLE family know we started that way, and have been accepting of me. There is little point delaying just to continue a lie that only benefits you.

 

If you want each other, just go for it.

[Lucky_One]

You had a senior supervisor at work ask you out for a drink and disclose to you a highly personal fact that she and her H started off as an EA/PA at work?

 

Pretty much this tells you that people at work know about your EMA. Otherwise, your supervisor would have just told you about her growth away from her H - she would not have disclosed the EA/PA with her co-worker.

 

If people at work know, then it could very easily get back to your respective spouses. You may want to be a bit more careful at work.

[26pointblue]

You had a senior supervisor at work ask you out for a drink and disclose to you a highly personal fact that she and her H started off as an EA/PA at work?

 

Pretty much this tells you that people at work know about your EMA. Otherwise, your supervisor would have just told you about her growth away from her H - she would not have disclosed the EA/PA with her co-worker.

 

If people at work know, then it could very easily get back to your respective spouses. You may want to be a bit more careful at work.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking when I read that. :-O It set off lots of alarm bells for me. The supervisor wouldn't have randomly started talking about an affair [without calling it that] if she didn't know or suspect that the OP herself is involved in an affair at work. OP be careful because if you value your job & reputation at work & don't want it to be tied to an affair . . . well it IS tied to an affair now & so don't make career decisions [or marriage decisions] based on what your MM is doing or not doing. Decide what you want to do & go for it. Only worry about you because in the end you are going to have to live with your decisions. I am speaking from experience & just trying to help. I think you are a little bit in denial, which I can understand from having been there myself. Good luck.

[Breezy Trousers]

Yes, based on what you've shared, it's probably too late, but please be careful. People in love are easy to spot -- overnight improved appearance, happy hormones, seen together in atypical places, etc.

 

The first year my friend was in her affair, she insisted to me that NO ONE would ever find out -- they were so very discreet, etc. Then MM instituted NC with her, breaking her heart. Nine months after NC was initiated -- to their mutual shock -- HR called them in and did an inquisition. Apparently, office gossip continued to mushroom about them even though the affair had long been over. People didn't realize it had ended and kept talking about it until HR was forced to deal with it.... Both denied the affair to HR. However, the crisis proved to be an opportunity for co-workers to openly wag their fingers at my friend. (The emotional opinions on infidelity expressed on this forum are merely a reflection of public opinion out there.)

 

HR didn't exactly support my friend -- in fact, they remained icy toward her long after the office D-Day. The infuriating thing is, after the initial shock passed, MM was treated normally -- even he said so! -- while my friend continued to take the "hit" in public opinion. I suspect this is because MM has power and makes lots of $$$ for the company, while my friend is, in comparison, dispensable. Regardless, it's unfair considering they both participated in the affair. The tense atmosphere caused my friend to leave the workplace months later. She couldn't deal with it. MM is still there ..... Business as usual.

[SoleMate]

It was his idea to start making moves towards our ability to be legitimate: marriage counselling for each of us, separating if each of our partners could do so amicably, then a period of singleness before we start dating publicly.

 

We also work together so I would need to transfer to a different department at that time, likely in 12-18 months.

 

He is fiercely protective of not having our relationship held up to the scrutiny and judgement of an "affair" as he feels this is much more than an illicit romance.

 

I'm worried that this will end badly for you. Your happiness at this point should mean more than his image to the local yokels.....if this were a real and enduring committed r/s, that is.

 

It is a common pattern, that the MW/AP will leave her marriage based on OM's promise, and then the MM/AP decides not to leave his. You could end up without your OM, without your marriage, and also without your job. If those scary thoughts don't slow you down, then nothing else I say will either.

 

I think that once YOUR boat has burned, you'll find that he activates that "but my wife won't let me leave amicably" clause, as another poster pointed out. C'mon....talk about being in a fog....what are the chances that the W will just shrug and say "oh well" and let her H walk off with the OW, leaving her a single mom, which was not what he signed up for? SLIM to put it mildly.

Edited May 3, 2011 by SoleMate

[Cabin]

Thanks to all who have posted with their respective opinions. I haven't had a chance to respond personally or answer every question, but I will try to address a few concerns...

 

1 - I would transfer (my idea) because it is the RIGHT thing to do given our roles in our workplace.... hard to explain without discussing the nature of our work or the dynamic of our work environment, but I know without question that a transfer on my part is right. Not only that, my transfer would not be a demotion or even a lateral move, but rather the position I would be moving into is one of added responsibility. I am *in no way* at risk of losing my job or being penalized for this A, other than perhaps the social fallout from the resident gossips. Yes, of course I am trying to reduce the negative impact to my image/our image that discovery could have... but I don't think there's anything wrong or unusual with that. Most people try to control the way they portray themselves and they way they are perceived by others, whether they are in an A or not... so I don't think it's a particularly revolutionary idea.

 

2 - I am moving forward with counselling and ultimately a separation with my H because our M needed the perspective and we would likely not have worked out wether this A happened or not. I had my blinders on for a little too long and I likely would have just kept going, having a second child, believing all would be well one day... but now I know better. And if I do end up separated/divorced and without my AP, I still think I will be better off in the long run. I do not want to spend the rest of my life with my H.

 

3 - If the AP is never available, I have no doubt that I will meet and date other men and I will meet someone else. I know I'm a good catch with much to offer a relationship. I have not placed all my eggs in the A basket, if you know what I mean. But, there is no denying that my AP and I have something very real and we both know what we have found... regardless of the result.

 

4 - My friend/"supervisor", who've I spoken to again since I posted, brought that conversation up because she thinks that AP and I are attracted to each other (she's been to working dinners with just us three or other very small groups) and that we ought to have the conversation, as she puts it. There is NOTHING to our interaction at work. Her insight came from seeing us interact at a working dinner at my house. And she didn't bring it up to warn me/scold me but instead to tell me to go for it basically.

 

Again, thanks all. I will keep posting with developments!

Cabin

[LilyBart]

Are you still in contact with each other while going through counseling with your spouses? If so, you are demonstrating you are more committed to the affair than the marriage. Are you lying to the therapist and spouses about the affair? If so, therapy is pointless.

 

Um, isn't that the point? Why would you be with an A/P if you were committed to the M?

 

Of course the therapy is pointless! The reason to go isn't to *really* save the M - it's so you can tell others "well, we tried - we even went to marriage counseling - but it didn't help". Good story, clear conscious - one can move forward to being in the R they REALLY want to be in.

 

Good luck to you Cabin!

[daisy love]

Hi Cabin! A whole lot of ppl go to counselling to divorce better instead of being married better. You should both do that. I sure hope things work out for you!!

[daisy love]

Um, isn't that the point? Why would you be with an A/P if you were committed to the M?

 

Of course the therapy is pointless! The reason to go isn't to *really* save the M - it's so you can tell others "well, we tried - we even went to marriage counseling - but it didn't help". Good story, clear conscious - one can move forward to being in the R they REALLY want to be in.

 

Good luck to you Cabin!

Right!! I have even heard of ppl ironing out their D's in MARRIAGE COUNSELLING!! I think Cabin is going to be A-OK!

[jwi71]

2 - I am moving forward with counselling and ultimately a separation with my H because our M needed the perspective and we would likely not have worked out wether this A happened or not. I had my blinders on for a little too long and I likely would have just kept going, having a second child, believing all would be well one day... but now I know better. And if I do end up separated/divorced and without my AP, I still think I will be better off in the long run. I do not want to spend the rest of my life with my H.

 

The quit the counseling, drop the separation talk (why separate instead of file for D...especially considering the bolded) and just file now. I did it with two kids under FIVE. I KNOW you can do it.

 

I guess I just object to this false hope being given to your H and your child.

 

That time, energy and money is better spent divorcing and in counseling for your child.

 

No one blames you for wanting out or not being happy, I object to the WAY you are ending it. Stop dragging it out - just do it. Use this time to end your M, help your child adjust and prep for a life and M to your OM. All you are doing is delaying your being with him (your OM). Get the ball rolling so to speak.

[Breezy Trousers]

Um, isn't that the point? Why would you be with an A/P if you were committed to the M?

 

Why would you be with an A/P if you were committed to the marriage? Sex, Lily. That's why they're often called flings, not affairs. Lots of people want the excitement of sexual flings but have no desire for a deep emotional attachment/commitment because they are quite happy with their marriage partners. (Me, for one.) The problem is when one affair partner is having a fling, but causing the other to think it's a love affair. See threads.

 

Of course the therapy is pointless! The reason to go isn't to *really* save the M - it's so you can tell others "well, we tried - we even went to marriage counseling - but it didn't help". Good story, clear conscious - one can move forward to being in the R they REALLY want to be in.

 

When I presented that question, I didn't want to think Cabin and her AP were consciously manipulating partners/counselors with ongoing therapy just so they can look good to everyone later on when they step into their new lives together. To do so would be narcissistic behavior -- lack of empathy & exploitation of others subordinate to the situation (i.e., they being the only ones aware of the truth).

 

Back to Cabin:

 

If you're as unhappy as you sound, you and your husband will be better off divorced. At worst, this will be an exit affair for you. At best, true love. Keep us posted and let us know how it goes.

[Holding-On]

The quit the counseling, drop the separation talk (why separate instead of file for D...especially considering the bolded) and just file now. I did it with two kids under FIVE. I KNOW you can do it.

 

I guess I just object to this false hope being given to your H and your child.

 

That time, energy and money is better spent divorcing and in counseling for your child.

 

No one blames you for wanting out or not being happy, I object to the WAY you are ending it. Stop dragging it out - just do it. Use this time to end your M, help your child adjust and prep for a life and M to your OM. All you are doing is delaying your being with him (your OM). Get the ball rolling so to speak.

 

I think you have written your point well but I DO see a few benefits to going to counselling now, where they can learn to communicate together, where he can explore counselling and maybe get some insight into his own problems and where they can discuss parenting, seems very beneficial. Sneaky and dishonest to some extent but it may be the only way he goes and may also be a good place to break down why they won't work out and leave each other from a better place.

somehow if she came out and said "hey I'm boinking so and so and plan to leave tomorrow, how'dya feel about THAT Buster?" I doubt the process would end so smoothly for either of them. As long as the divorce is likely to be fairly soon, at this point I see no point in telling the soon to be x husband.

[Carrot2000]

I think you have written your point well but I DO see a few benefits to going to counselling now, where they can learn to communicate together, where he can explore counselling and maybe get some insight into his own problems and where they can discuss parenting, seems very beneficial. Sneaky and dishonest to some extent but it may be the only way he goes and may also be a good place to break down why they won't work out and leave each other from a better place.

 

The counseling is not a bad idea, but Cabin should fill her spouse in on her intentions if she wants to use the sessions to help end the marriage, not repair it. Counseling is never going to work if both parties don't have the same goal (fix or end).

[carrie999]

Welcome...and sorry you are here.

 

Pretty normal - a great many A's begin at work.

 

Why?

Why are you wasting everyone's time and money on this?

You should be hiring a lawyer, not a MC.

All you are doing is, well, wasting time and money. Look up a good D lawyer and file. What are you waiting for?

 

After filing, determine who will move out, divvy up assets, settle on child custody and visitation then find a good child therapist (his/her world is about to be turned upside down).

 

Nothing to it really. Just curious why you are "working on your marriage" instead of filing for D....

 

Clearly. So, get out of it. Happens every day.

 

Sounds good on paper. I don't get the MC part though...why?

If you have both decided to leave, why go through the charade of MC?

Just file for D.

Are married persons not allowed to work in the same department there?

And, I'm willing to bet your A isn't a secret at the office either - they never are.

 

A little late for that. The truth has the damnedest way of coming out. But, you just MAY be able to conceal it all. What's the plan if there is a D-day? What is the expected fallout?

 

Doesn't matter, but its interesting how you were BOTH happy in your M's until the A - then, well, its time to D and be with each other. What often happens is the A makes the participants see the M as far worse than it already is.

 

What does your MC say about it? I mean, you ARE discussing the A in MC with your H right? Well, come to think of it, did the MC ask if you or your H were having an A? If he/she did, how did you answer?

 

When your parents ask you why you are divorcing what will you say?

What will HE say? IS your disdain for your H so great you will lie to him, your MC and everyone in world to obfuscate the TRUE reason for D? How can he (your H) improve the M when you continually LIE about its decline (your A).

 

I get what you are saying. I just happen to wholeheartedly disagree. IF you and your AP were to actually file for D and have 50 years together - you would be the exception, not the rule. And some of that is born out of what I said above, an A tends to discolor the M in the worst possible way. You hinted at this yourself by saying YOU weren't looking for an A and it wasn't until IN the A that D came up.

 

Above all, remember the man you are leaving. And take a good hard look at the man you are running towards...an A is NOT a relationship with all the problems and "reality" a "normal open R" has. Its a healthy dose of fantasy.

 

Its a dirty little secret your MM wants hidden at all costs.

 

Last question if I may...who files for D first? You or him?

 

Great post...I agree with everything you said, jwi. If it's been determined that you're both leaving, LEAVE. Marriages shouldn't end based upon somebody new on the horizon. They should end because one or both people have decided to end it. Of course you hope that you and AP will BOTH leave and end up together, but it's not that simple, which you have admitted. Focus on your end for now. If you end up alone after all is said and done, move past it. Don't leave your marriage because you believe you both will leave and it will all work out. Hope that it will, but work towards your own future, and that of your children.

[jwi71]

I think you have written your point well but I DO see a few benefits to going to counselling now, where they can learn to communicate together, where he can explore counselling and maybe get some insight into his own problems and where they can discuss parenting, seems very beneficial. Sneaky and dishonest to some extent but it may be the only way he goes and may also be a good place to break down why they won't work out and leave each other from a better place.

somehow if she came out and said "hey I'm boinking so and so and plan to leave tomorrow, how'dya feel about THAT Buster?" I doubt the process would end so smoothly for either of them. As long as the divorce is likely to be fairly soon, at this point I see no point in telling the soon to be x husband.

 

The rub is, Cabin CANNOT help her stbxh. Even if we discount the grievous injury she inflicts on him by cheating on him, she CANNOT help him. These are issues HE solves for HIMSELF.

 

And yes, he needs help, love and support to get there. And that clearly ISNT Cabin who is actively betraying him and secretly planning to leave him.

 

Cabin needs, imo, to cut loose and move forward. She, least of all, is in a position to help her stbxh.

 

She can easily provide alimony, support and insurance to him for a period of time after their D. I don't see why she doesn't go this route....

[Breezy Trousers]

The rub is, Cabin CANNOT help her stbxh. Even if we discount the grievous injury she inflicts on him by cheating on him, she CANNOT help him. These are issues HE solves for HIMSELF.

 

Yes. Believing you can influence someone to change is commonly referred to as "codependency." Never works.

[robf1971]

, then please tell your husband. Maybe you could do it in a counseling session, that way you have a "third party" there to help after you let your husband know how you feel.

 

this way, it will all "be out in the open" and you can all begin to move on and be happy.

 

Yep, the poor man, just tell him. In fact you'll be doing him a huge favour by setting him free, and enabling him to find a woman with high integrity who won't cheat. After all everyone deserves that. right?

[LilyBart]

Why would you be with an A/P if you were committed to the marriage? Sex, Lily. That's why they're often called flings, not affairs. Lots of people want the excitement of sexual flings but have no desire for a deep emotional attachment/commitment because they are quite happy with their marriage partners. (Me, for one.) The problem is when one affair partner is having a fling, but causing the other to think it's a love affair. See threads.

 

Honey, if it was JUST a FLING, neither would be considering D their partners, now would they? The fact of the matter is, BOTH A/P's are moving forward to be with each other - because what they have found (with each other) trumps what they have (in their M).

 

When I presented that question, I didn't want to think Cabin and her AP were consciously manipulating partners/counselors with ongoing therapy just so they can look good to everyone later on when they step into their new lives together. To do so would be narcissistic behavior -- lack of empathy & exploitation of others subordinate to the situation (i.e., they being the only ones aware of the truth).

 

And what is wrong with this???

 

Two people, in love, who want an amicable D from their stbx's (hence the counseling). The lovers want to start their new life together without massive turmoil - which most certainly would happen if the stbx's found out about the A and it would also create more-than-necessary hurt feelings.

 

Isn't it better to let the exes think "The M didn't work out" as opposed to "They found someone better"?

[LilyBart]

The counseling is not a bad idea, but Cabin should fill her spouse in on her intentions if she wants to use the sessions to help end the marriage, not repair it. Counseling is never going to work if both parties don't have the same goal (fix or end).

 

 

I'm telling y'all this is the point!!!! The counseling not working is to PROVE the M isn't going to work - hence DIVORCE.

[cupcakekk]

aren't you afraid the same things are going to happen? I have had the same problem. I left my boyfriend for another man and he's been classified as a player. im totally unsure as to beleive it because he does fall into everything that is a player. except for that he was friends with my boyfriend. They worked together and he heard all the bad things my boyfriend said about me he fell for me i guess. I know he's had a very crazy sex life but i've also seen the momentums hes kept from previous relationships ( like love notes and pictures) and he actually is a very sweet guy. What are you ideas? do you think he is playing me? He claims that he would have never pursued me if he didn't care about me because we are both dealing with a lot of stress due to this situation. His job and friendship was jepordized.

[fascinated]

It's not marriage counseling if both parties aren't committed to the marriage. It's just therapy, imho.

[LilyBart]

but there are in marriage counseling, and are being very dishonest with their spouses about why they are there. If they don't want to tell their respective spouses about the affair, can they not still at least be honest with them and tell them they are not happy being married anymore and that they would like these counceling sessions to be about disolving the marraige with the least amount of pain possible?

 

Well, no movement in MC = M being dead.

 

In my book, this is when it should be the counselor's job to say "This M can't be fixed", hence NO ONE has to be the bad guy. Basically, it would lead to the same end result with the least amount of pain possible.

 

All they are doing right now is giving their spouses a glimmer of hope that their marriages can be saved, when, from what Cabin says, this simply isn't the case.

 

If you ask me, that is very, very, very cruel. It may be "easier" for the cheating spouses, but it is totally unfair to those they are cheating on.

 

And what part of cheating on a spouse is FAIR?

 

Look, these two people are in love and want to be together. They will do what it takes with the least amount of pain to themselves in order to extract themselves from their M.

 

If they loved them enough once to marry them, don't they at least owe it to them to be honest about why the marriage is ending?

 

No.

 

I think it's BECAUSE they loved them once, that they are going to spare their stbx's the hard truth. Add to that - it makes their lives (the APs) easier too - because in the future every one will have to interact at some junction (graduation, wedding, whatever) and there's no sense in having it turn into a battlefield.

 

As for keeping the affair "under wraps" because it's easier for their spouses, that is a big pile of @#ap. The affair IS at least in part, why their marriages are ending, and their spouses need to know that. Otherwise, they will go through their lives wondering what they did that was so bad that their spouses didn't want to be married to them anymore. At least if they know about the affair, then they will know it isn't all because of them.

 

Sometimes, you don't know what you're missing, until you find it.

 

But I don't see the point in being CRUEL and pointing out to a stbx-spouse this particular fact. Why bother saying to someone "You were lacking X,Y,Z" especially when it doesn't change anything except to make things worse?

 

Keeping the affair under wraps only serves to make it easier for those in the affair, and it's selfish.

 

Cabin, I think you know what the "right" thing to do is... now, hard as it may be, you have to actually do it.

 

Well, we can agree on this thing - yes, it IS about making things easier for those in an affair. And why not? You can call it selfish but really, what you don't know can't hurt you (pertaining to the stbx's). It's also about self-preservation - looking towards the future "couple" these two will form.

 

Cabin, you don't have to do anything except what feels right for you and your AP. After all, it's YOUR LIFE and you're the one who has to live it. My advice? Keep the fall out to a minimum, if at all possible.

[bentnotbroken]

Well, no movement in MC = M being dead.

 

In my book, this is when it should be the counselor's job to say "This M can't be fixed", hence NO ONE has to be the bad guy. Basically, it would lead to the same end result with the least amount of pain possible.

 

 

 

And what part of cheating on a spouse is FAIR?

 

Look, these two people are in love and want to be together. They will do what it takes with the least amount of pain to themselves in order to extract themselves from their M.

 

 

 

No.

 

I think it's BECAUSE they loved them once, that they are going to spare their stbx's the hard truth. Add to that - it makes their lives (the APs) easier too - because in the future every one will have to interact at some junction (graduation, wedding, whatever) and there's no sense in having it turn into a battlefield.

 

 

 

Sometimes, you don't know what you're missing, until you find it.

 

But I don't see the point in being CRUEL and pointing out to a stbx-spouse this particular fact. Why bother saying to someone "You were lacking X,Y,Z" especially when it doesn't change anything except to make things worse?

 

 

 

Well, we can agree on this thing - yes, it IS about making things easier for those in an affair. And why not? You can call it selfish but really, what you don't know can't hurt you (pertaining to the stbx's). It's also about self-preservation - looking towards the future "couple" these two will form.

 

Cabin, you don't have to do anything except what feels right for you and your AP. After all, it's YOUR LIFE and you're the one who has to live it. My advice? Keep the fall out to a minimum, if at all possible.

 

 

This is so full of everything that gathers flies. Punkish moves for those without courage or conviction of anything other than taking care of those things labeled in the name of luv:sick:.

[LilyBart]

This is so full of everything that gathers flies. Punkish moves for those without courage or conviction of anything other than taking care of those things labeled in the name of luv:sick:.

 

Eh. Call it whatever you want.

 

Just remember, there are those who follow their hearts and dreams and end up happier for it.

[bentnotbroken]

Eh. Call it whatever you want.

 

Just remember, there are those who follow their hearts and dreams and end up happier for it.

 

 

Not a problem for me following my heart or my dreams, but there is no need for me to trample others to get where I want to be. That isn't a dream, it's a nightmare. And if that is what a heart can spawn...