giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 See if you can see a pattern here: - I loved my mother. I craved love from her, but she was cold and distant and she never cuddled me. She only held my hand once. - I loved my father, but he had a violent streak and would beat me regularly. - I loved my brother. But he was nasty and teased me and put me down a lot. - I loved my best friend, but he was quite moody and often didn't want to have anything to do with me. - I loved my first "girlfriend". But she never wanted us to be "official" and she eventually left me. - I loved my wife, but she is a very reserved and private person. I craved love from her, but she couldn't take it, she shut me out and eventually withdrew in herself. She is still in there, somewhere... I know... sounds pathetic. But this is how I feel at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 (((giotto))) The pattern I see is that you had poor models of love growing up, and it influenced your "people picker" as an adult. You chose what you knew as love. I'm curious giotto, what is your relationship to your children? Is it warm and loving? Do you cuddle them, and hold their hands? If so, you have overcome your upbringing in that way Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 (((giotto))) The pattern I see is that you had poor models of love growing up, and it influenced your "people picker" as an adult. You chose what you knew as love. I'm curious giotto, what is your relationship to your children? Is it warm and loving? Do you cuddle them, and hold their hands? If so, you have overcome your upbringing in that way thanks for your answer... I'm trying to understand what's going on, really, and in myself too. Yes, a friend of mine said that to me: you pick what you know and I suppose I've done that all my life. But it's taken me many years to realise it. My children: I've always tried to be a warm, friendly and smiley father and I've always cuddled them, held their hands, everything. Maybe a bit less now that they are growing (3 of them are in their teens), but with the little one (10) I still share lots of cuddles, which is nice... I don't think I've been the perfect father, because of the problems with my wife. Unfortunately, I tended to isolate a bit too much in the past, but that was a reaction to what was going on. I have accepted the situation now, so I'm back to my normal self (hopefully)... I would hate to repeat my parents' upbringing... in fact, I have a big problem with my father. We get along (kind of), but I can't stand him. Luckily I live abroad and I don't have to deal with him that often... Link to post Share on other sites
PinkInTheLimo Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Giotto, sorry to say this but... you like to suffer. I think that you wouldn't recognize a warm relationship if it came knocking on your head. You should read: "No More Mr Nice Guy". You keep complaining here on Loveshack but nothing ever changes. Why? Because you don't change. Now you can go on like that and then we will still see you here on LS in 10 years, with still the same story. Do something. Even if it is only go to counseling yourself to get a better grip on yourself. Link to post Share on other sites
PinkInTheLimo Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 What if anything do you want to do about it--aside from complain? I had not even read this when I wrote my own post. It is indeed time to stop complaining and do something to change the dynamic. To be honest, in the end I don't even read your posts anymore. It's always the same and there is no evolution. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 Accept that you are sexually incompatible with your spouse, in terms of frequency. It doesn't really matter why that is. What if anything do you want to do about it--aside from complain? I have now. I have accepted it. I'm not complaining about that, now, am I? I was trying to get confirmation on some behaviours on which I had no insight until now. I know I should stop complaining, but LS is also a place to vent. As you probably noticed, this is my only 3rd thread, unlike other people here. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 To be honest, in the end I don't even read your posts anymore. It's always the same and there is no evolution. There has been evolution, but obviously you don't bother reading my threads anymore... I am evolving, slowly, but I am. You can always ignore my posts... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 That's the way it works in a lot of co-dependent relationships. Both parties are interacting in a way in which "stability" of the relationship is maintained (so nothing ever changes), but one or the other--most likely both--of the partners are unhappy despite the stability. well, good description and you are right on that. We probably are looking for reassurance and stability because we feel we have to be here for the kids, but neither of us - for different reasons - are particularly happy, but we are not desperately unhappy either... Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 There has been evolution, but obviously you don't bother reading my threads anymore... I am evolving, slowly, but I am. You can always ignore my posts... I see it. Instead of trying to change your current relationship, you are working on understanding how you got here. That's a good thing, because often times people leave one unsatisfying relationship, just to recreate the same dynamic in the next. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 I see it. Instead of trying to change your current relationship, you are working on understanding how you got here. That's a good thing, because often times people leave one unsatisfying relationship, just to recreate the same dynamic in the next. we have changed our relationship to a certain extent... we've talked, after a lot of pushing and now I know what's really going on. In the past, I was always guessing. At least now I know what the problem is: OCD + ADs and refusal to go to therapy. So, now I can actually deal with it. I can move forward to establish a strategy to move myself forward. I suppose my next stage will be individual counselling. The relationship is unsatisfying, but not as much - now that I know - to be wanting to abandon my children, like I wanted to in the dark periods of my life. I finally past that stage and I need to analyse to understand and move forward (did I say that already? ). You'll have to bear with me, because it's not easy... Link to post Share on other sites
Spark1111 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Hats off to you Giotto! Introspection is the very first step towards awakening, changing, and living a much more authentic and gratifying life! I think you should inform your wife that you are going to therapy alone to work on some personal issues from your past. As you grow stronger, more demonstrative, happier, she just may become intrigued enough by your changes to consider it for herself. If not, so be it. Think of it as giving a gift to your children and commit to it! A happier, more self-aware father leaves a profound legacy for his children. Get going. Link to post Share on other sites
PinkInTheLimo Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 I have now. I have accepted it. I'm not complaining about that, now, am I? I was trying to get confirmation on some behaviours on which I had no insight until now. I know I should stop complaining, but LS is also a place to vent. As you probably noticed, this is my only 3rd thread, unlike other people here. giotto, this is SO passive-agressive. If you were my H, I would want to attack you if you react like that. I think that your W on her side - because of her issues - puts up with a lot of annoying behaviour from you. I think that if you would have a partner who was really feeling good abour herself, she would not stay with you. One thing is certain, every time I read about your marriage, I get the impression that it is one boring miserable place to be in! Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 Hats off to you Giotto! Introspection is the very first step towards awakening, changing, and living a much more authentic and gratifying life! I think you should inform your wife that you are going to therapy alone to work on some personal issues from your past. As you grow stronger, more demonstrative, happier, she just may become intrigued enough by your changes to consider it for herself. If not, so be it. Think of it as giving a gift to your children and commit to it! A happier, more self-aware father leaves a profound legacy for his children. Get going. Thanks for your kind words, Spark. I've been to therapy on my own in the past. I think it's time to resume it, since I got to the point where I can actually understand some issues and can discuss them with a clearer mind. It's been a long and hard journey, but it looks like I'm getting somewhere. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 giotto, this is SO passive-agressive. If you were my H, I would want to attack you if you react like that. I think that your W on her side - because of her issues - puts up with a lot of annoying behaviour from you. I think that if you would have a partner who was really feeling good abour herself, she would not stay with you. One thing is certain, every time I read about your marriage, I get the impression that it is one boring miserable place to be in! If you read my threads properly, you wouldn't say what you just said. I give a lot of info in them and I don't really understand your remarks. But you are entitled to them, obviously. I just wish you wouldn't make such wild assumptions, like she wouldn't stay with me or that my marriage is miserable. If you have to make things up, at least try and base your conjectures on what I actually said. You are turning into PorkRinds... But I suppose this is internet... Link to post Share on other sites
mem11363 Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 Giotto, This is a very insightful post. I think it is very, very valuable to understand how you got to be where you are. I also understand how that background would cause you to have a strong desire for love, maybe at times an overpowering desire for love from your spouse. That "need" was likely a big factor in the "conflict" pattern you established with your W. A pattern in which, no matter who was wrong, you would quickly approach her for reconciliation. I believe that dynamic played a role in eroding her respect for you and with it her desire. The loss of desire caused you greater anxiety, which produced a greater need for love from her. Vicious cycle. Not all that rare but very painful. Quite sad really. In a twisted way this is similar to a popular beer commercial in the states. Two guys are cooling their bare feet in a stream when a bear suddenly appears. The first guy quickly pulls his feet from the stream and starts to don his sneakers. The second guy says "what are you doing, a person cannot out run a bear". To which the first guy responds, I don't have to outrun the "bear", I simply have to out run "YOU". In your early conflicts, your W was also anxious after a fight. She wanted to resume normal "loving interaction" as well. The thing is she quickly learned she could outlast you, with the result being very binary. She seemed powerful and you seemed weak. Very sad really. If you re-read your posts from the last 3-4 years you will find a different pattern. You say "I need X from you". She replies "no way - not going to happen". You come back with "then we are done". She responds with "Oh - ok sure I can do what you ask". As soon as she believes you are not going to "blink" her response to you completely changes. See if you can see a pattern here: - I loved my mother. I craved love from her, but she was cold and distant and she never cuddled me. She only held my hand once. - I loved my father, but he had a violent streak and would beat me regularly. - I loved my brother. But he was nasty and teased me and put me down a lot. - I loved my best friend, but he was quite moody and often didn't want to have anything to do with me. - I loved my first "girlfriend". But she never wanted us to be "official" and she eventually left me. - I loved my wife, but she is a very reserved and private person. I craved love from her, but she couldn't take it, she shut me out and eventually withdrew in herself. She is still in there, somewhere... I know... sounds pathetic. But this is how I feel at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 2, 2011 Author Share Posted May 2, 2011 well, yes, that was my weakness... I know now, I didn't know before. That's why I entitled the post that way. I'm not really saying it's entirely my fault, but surely I started from a weaker and therefore more vulnerable point. It's debatable how what happened afterwards could have been managed - her issues kicked in - but had I been a stronger person, maybe things would be different now. A bit sad, really, but we were young. Giotto, This is a very insightful post. I think it is very, very valuable to understand how you got to be where you are. I also understand how that background would cause you to have a strong desire for love, maybe at times an overpowering desire for love from your spouse. That "need" was likely a big factor in the "conflict" pattern you established with your W. A pattern in which, no matter who was wrong, you would quickly approach her for reconciliation. I believe that dynamic played a role in eroding her respect for you and with it her desire. The loss of desire caused you greater anxiety, which produced a greater need for love from her. Vicious cycle. Not all that rare but very painful. Quite sad really. In a twisted way this is similar to a popular beer commercial in the states. Two guys are cooling their bare feet in a stream when a bear suddenly appears. The first guy quickly pulls his feet from the stream and starts to don his sneakers. The second guy says "what are you doing, a person cannot out run a bear". To which the first guy responds, I don't have to outrun the "bear", I simply have to out run "YOU". In your early conflicts, your W was also anxious after a fight. She wanted to resume normal "loving interaction" as well. The thing is she quickly learned she could outlast you, with the result being very binary. She seemed powerful and you seemed weak. Very sad really. If you re-read your posts from the last 3-4 years you will find a different pattern. You say "I need X from you". She replies "no way - not going to happen". You come back with "then we are done". She responds with "Oh - ok sure I can do what you ask". As soon as she believes you are not going to "blink" her response to you completely changes. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 Giotto, I also understand how that background would cause you to have a strong desire for love, maybe at times an overpowering desire for love from your spouse. That "need" was likely a big factor in the "conflict" pattern you established with your W. A pattern in which, no matter who was wrong, you would quickly approach her for reconciliation. I believe that dynamic played a role in eroding her respect for you and with it her desire. The loss of desire caused you greater anxiety, which produced a greater need for love from her. Vicious cycle. Not all that rare but very painful. I've also decided she is a typical case of an emotionally unavailable person, exactly like my mother. Obviously, I could not see this when we were young, but it should have been pretty clear later on. How could I not see it? The sad result is that I stopped wanting love from her, because she is unable to give it to me. Link to post Share on other sites
mem11363 Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 G, With the right "feedback loop" in place, I think your wife would surprise you in terms of just how high functioning she can be. I think it is sad that she has gotten you to buy into the idea that she has all these insurmountable issues, and yet isn't willing to go into therapy. To an outsider it looks like she doesn't want to exert herself and show much commitment to the marriage, but is keenly aware that a divorce would be financially painful for her. And so she carefully calculates the "minimum effort" that will keep you around - and that is what you get. I've also decided she is a typical case of an emotionally unavailable person, exactly like my mother. Obviously, I could not see this when we were young, but it should have been pretty clear later on. How could I not see it? The sad result is that I stopped wanting love from her, because she is unable to give it to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 G, With the right "feedback loop" in place, I think your wife would surprise you in terms of just how high functioning she can be. I think it is sad that she has gotten you to buy into the idea that she has all these insurmountable issues, and yet isn't willing to go into therapy. To an outsider it looks like she doesn't want to exert herself and show much commitment to the marriage, but is keenly aware that a divorce would be financially painful for her. And so she carefully calculates the "minimum effort" that will keep you around - and that is what you get. mmm... there is definitely a utilitaristic (love that word... ) side to it. I think she likes me more than an empty house and loads of extra tasks to be accomplished whilst she works full time with 4 kids... Having said that, she really has changed... but maybe it's got something to do with me accepting things and being less grumpy. From some of the comments she's made in the course of our relationship (I'm not man enough or she doesn't love me like she used to at the beginning of the relationship), I'm pretty much sure she's changed her mind about our marriage or her idea of a marriage. I can't pinpoint the exact reason and I'm sure I'm partly to blame. I have invaded her space and her privacy with my relentless quest for love (right or wrong, considering my past), but then we are more different than I thought in the first place. Quite disappointing, since we grew up together. I don't seem to be able to get past that. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 My children: I've always tried to be a warm, friendly and smiley father and I've always cuddled them, held their hands, everything. Maybe a bit less now that they are growing (3 of them are in their teens), but with the little one (10) I still share lots of cuddles, which is nice... Nah, even with the teens, they still need to have a hug, a cuddle and hair tossel, even if in a loving, teasing way. Affection shown to kids of any age is important, even if the kids aren't into it! It's better for them to go "eww dad," and laugh then not to have that option at all! Okay, you've had a rough ride in the past, your upbringing, how your parents were with you. I'm sorry that you didn't get that love and affection from your mom, ALL kids need that! Not only from mom, but from dad too. Your dad was cruel, no doubt and that is something that affects you now.. And your bro too, that didn't help things either! how is your relatioship with him now? I do hope the friends you have in your life now are there for you. As for taking blame for your marriage, don't do that. Your wife has depression and that in itself is a whole other ball game.. Throw in other factors, it makes it worse.. utilitaristic Say it 10 times in a row! Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 Nah, even with the teens, they still need to have a hug, a cuddle and hair tossel, even if in a loving, teasing way. Affection shown to kids of any age is important, even if the kids aren't into it! It's better for them to go "eww dad," and laugh then not to have that option at all! Okay, you've had a rough ride in the past, your upbringing, how your parents were with you. I'm sorry that you didn't get that love and affection from your mom, ALL kids need that! Not only from mom, but from dad too. Your dad was cruel, no doubt and that is something that affects you now.. And your bro too, that didn't help things either! how is your relatioship with him now? I do hope the friends you have in your life now are there for you. As for taking blame for your marriage, don't do that. Your wife has depression and that in itself is a whole other ball game.. Throw in other factors, it makes it worse.. The relationship with my brother is ok... but I live abroad, so I see him once, maybe twice a year for a couple of hours... that helps! The friends I have now are pretty supportive, although my wife has none! She only sees her relatives and that's it! She tends to lose contact with everybody and only occasionally sees some of her friends from her teens. Having said that, I live abroad and work from home, so it wasn't easy for me to make friends, although everybody knows me in the village. I'm a fairly sociable individual... Sometimes I really feel I've made a mess of my life, but maybe circumstances were not that favourable. But I'm definitely on the way up! Say it 10 times in a row! I think it's actually "utilitarian" Link to post Share on other sites
Spark1111 Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I've also decided she is a typical case of an emotionally unavailable person, exactly like my mother. Obviously, I could not see this when we were young, but it should have been pretty clear later on. How could I not see it? The sad result is that I stopped wanting love from her, because she is unable to give it to me. Giotto, think on this: There is an old psyche chestnut that believes we unconciously choose, or are attracted to, a spouse who resembles the parent we had the least successful relationship with in childhood. Why? We are trying to heal those old childhood wounds! It is our attempt to go back and make it all better, and feel more love NOW then we did then. Unfortunately, it rarely works because we grow disillsioned. Why? Our expectations of this person to fulfill our needs is too great, plus, they have many of the same characteristics as our parent. But we chose them because those feelings felt so similiar to our childhood where we first learned about love, or the lack thereof, at the hands of our parents. You may not ever be able to change her, but you can always change yourself! Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 You may not ever be able to change her, but you can always change yourself! well, yes, that's what I'm doing... can't change her or, better, can't help her change herself, my ultimate goal. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts