Trojan John Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Behold the power of spurious logic-based belief. The world is coming to an end yet again with Judgement Day scheduled for 21 May, 2011 and the actual Apocalypse on 21 October, 2011. The good news is that 21 October falls on a Friday so... eternal weekend for everyone. Amongst the estimated 44 to 200+ (depending on the source) end of the world predictions, the most immediate one is the aforementioned 2011 date made by one Harold Camping of Family Radio in California. This is no ordinary doomsayer; no preacher willing to poison comet-riding hopefuls nor a heavily armed polygamist/separatist. Family radio can be heard in several states, and Camping has a growing number of followers worldwide. He bases his prediction on a biblical calendar and a year counting method which he derived from several bible passages. From that he dates things like the creation of mankind at 11'013 BCE and mythical Noah's flood at 4990 BCE -- from which he can extrapolate (estimating that 1 day = 1000 years from 2Peter 3) that the return of Jesus to be 7000 years from the flood, or in bizarre mathematical terms: 4990 + 2011 - 1 (no year zero!) = 7000. That's right, 2011 CE is exactly 7000 years after the supposed flood. Before I go any further, I will acknowledge that Camping is preaching something different than what mainstream Christianity teaches. However, aside from the apocalypse prediction, it's not that different at all. It is noted that, Central to Camping's teaching is the belief that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the Word of God, and absolutely trustworthy. However, he emphasizes, this does not mean that each sentence in the Bible is to be understood only literally. Rather, the meaning of individual Biblical passages also needs to be interpreted in the light of two factors. The first is the context of the Bible as a whole. The second is its spiritual meaning. In Camping's words, "the Bible is an earthly story with a Heavenly meaning." What Christian would disagree with that? So who is to say that he isn't correct in his beliefs? How does one come to believe in certain, arguably bizarre, Bible-based notions without evidence but will adamantly refuse to believe in others? Link to post Share on other sites
reboot Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Sweet. I don't have to worry about spending too much at Christmas this year. Link to post Share on other sites
Cerpin_Taxt Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Is there enough time to get a good base tan? I don't want to burn too bad my first day in hell. Link to post Share on other sites
mickleb Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 How does one come to believe in certain, arguably bizarre, Bible-based notions without evidence but will adamantly refuse to believe in others? Excellent question. Shame no-one here could come up with a response. It certainly beats me. x Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 How does one come to believe in certain, arguably bizarre, Bible-based notions without evidence but will adamantly refuse to believe in others? Mental illness I think. Link to post Share on other sites
Feelin Frisky Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 ... How does one come to believe in certain, arguably bizarre, Bible-based notions without evidence but will adamantly refuse to believe in others? Very simple an easy answer: to have no choice offered to you during the period in which your world view becomes largely shaped. We are not born knowing language--we take it on as tots. We also take on ideas and notions that language conveys and religion has long been "at us" before we learn what the word choice even means. In my mind it should really be considered a crime to mislead a child by squelching individual inquisitiveness in favor of whole-scale acquiescence to faith-lore. We recognize the vulnerability of our youth in so many other regards yet fear-force blind acceptance of faulty ancient precepts as if it buys us an indulgence from purgatory. It's the source of humanity's single greatest dysfunction--the intellectual and emotional imprisonment of a child. This is not "spirituality"--it is its antithesis. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 The world is coming to an end yet again with Judgement Day scheduled for 21 May, 2011... Before I go any further, I will acknowledge that Camping is preaching something different than what mainstream Christianity teaches. However, aside from the apocalypse prediction, it's not that different at all. It is noted that, Central to Camping's teaching is the belief that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the Word of God, and absolutely trustworthy. However, he emphasizes, this does not mean that each sentence in the Bible is to be understood only literally. Rather, the meaning of individual Biblical passages also needs to be interpreted in the light of two factors. The first is the context of the Bible as a whole. The second is its spiritual meaning. In Camping's words, "the Bible is an earthly story with a Heavenly meaning." What Christian would disagree with that? [OpenBook raises her hand.] Apparently Camping skipped over the parts in the Bible where Jesus very clearly and specifically says "not even the angels in heaven" know the day or hour when it's going to go down. He describes it happening with phrases such as "like a thief in the night" and "in the blink of an eye." A more earthly way to put it: Camping is full of sh*t. -OB May 22, 2011 @ 1:45pm ET :lmao: Link to post Share on other sites
mickleb Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Very simple an easy answer: to have no choice offered to you during the period in which your world view becomes largely shaped. We are not born knowing language--we take it on as tots. We also take on ideas and notions that language conveys and religion has long been "at us" before we learn what the word choice even means. In my mind it should really be considered a crime to mislead a child by squelching individual inquisitiveness in favor of whole-scale acquiescence to faith-lore. We recognize the vulnerability of our youth in so many other regards yet fear-force blind acceptance of faulty ancient precepts as if it buys us an indulgence from purgatory. It's the source of humanity's single greatest dysfunction--the intellectual and emotional imprisonment of a child. This is not "spirituality"--it is its antithesis. I understand your point but we all have to shake off a few family values. We're talking about adults. Adults have choices. There is a conscious choice to accept some parts of a religious text over others. This 'word of God/Allah/whoever' belief is just silly and, possibly, the laziest excuse bandied around the planet. I can accept mental illness and plain old ignorance accounts for a few perpetrators/believers of the concept and, for some, it's just not worth challenging the beliefs of their family/society but that still leaves millions unaccounted for. I guess it just helps people to feel more in control of their lives? Mad, sad and dangerous to know.. x Link to post Share on other sites
Author Trojan John Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 [OpenBook raises her hand.] Apparently Camping skipped over the parts in the Bible where Jesus very clearly and specifically says "not even the angels in heaven" know the day or hour when it's going to go down. He describes it happening with phrases such as "like a thief in the night" and "in the blink of an eye." A more earthly way to put it: Camping is full of sh*t. -OB May 22, 2011 @ 1:45pm ET :lmao: I would take it one step further and say that most believers are full of sh*t as well, but that wouldn't be nice, would it? What we have is a load of unsubstantiated beliefs that are in direct contradiction with other unsubstantiated beliefs -- meanwhile all the followers pretending to know The Truth™. These are at best easily deconstructed claims that fly in the face of everything that humanity has learned since recorded history. These are ideas that one has no good reason for espousing, that have time and time again led to the financial ruin and death of some believers. ...Stupid-loop stuck ideas that will lead to new threads on this same topic come December 2012. Link to post Share on other sites
mickleb Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I would take it one step further and say that most believers are full of sh*t as well, but that wouldn't be nice, would it? What we have is a load of unsubstantiated beliefs that are in direct contradiction with other unsubstantiated beliefs -- meanwhile all the followers pretending to know The Truth™. These are at best easily deconstructed claims that fly in the face of everything that humanity has learned since recorded history. These are ideas that one has no good reason for espousing, that have time and time again led to the financial ruin and death of some believers. ...Stupid-loop stuck ideas that will lead to new threads on this same topic come December 2012. Good points, very well made but - to be fair - we're all guilty of regularly being full of sh*t, aren't we? x Link to post Share on other sites
Author Trojan John Posted May 25, 2011 Author Share Posted May 25, 2011 Good points, very well made but - to be fair - we're all guilty of regularly being full of sh*t, aren't we? x True. However, my being full of sh*t doesn't end with billions of people dying horrifically, then spending eternity in a lake of fire. Link to post Share on other sites
Disillusioned Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Too bad we can't post pics here. I found one in which a nerdy-looking guy is confronting a bunch of placard carrying holy roller types with a placard of his own: "the sun will explode in 5 billion years/repent to Stephen Hawking now!" Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Central to Camping's teaching is the belief that the Bible alone and in its entirety is the Word of God, and absolutely trustworthy. However, he emphasizes, this does not mean that each sentence in the Bible is to be understood only literally. Rather, the meaning of individual Biblical passages also needs to be interpreted in the light of two factors. The first is the context of the Bible as a whole. The second is its spiritual meaning. In Camping's words, "the Bible is an earthly story with a Heavenly meaning." What Christian would disagree with that? First off, many if not most Christians would disagree with that statement. And the big reason is that Camping does not interpret the Bible literally. He interprets it allegorically. To reach his 2011 date (which has apparently been wrong even though Camping has a different take on that) he did not read the Bible literally but put meanings to verses that are not even close to what those verses actually meant. I have read his books and tried to understand his logic but could not. Second, according to him, most Christians would not be raptured because they do not agree completely with him. Harold Camping now says that the Judgment Day actually did begin on 5.21.11 but did so spiritually. His predicted earthquakes were a misunderstanding of interpretation. Now October 21 is the end as before but the world will not experience obvious physical upheaval. As for "no man knoweth the hour," Camping did/does have an explanation for that. Again, 99% of all Christians would disagree with his interpretation. As a friend of mine said, Camping has done more damage to Christianity in three years than most atheists can do in a lifetime. If we read the Bible literally as Camping says he does but doesn't, then we do not reach such conclusions. Only when a man develops his own system of interpretation as Camping has can he reach conclusions that make no sense. It doesn't really matter when the world will end. It only matters when my (or your) life will end. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Trojan John Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 JamesM, Remove Camping from the quoted statement and include your religious leader of choice. It changes little. The only difference between Camping's beliefs and that of most Christians is that he set a date. I have argued with Christians who read the bible literally, allegorically and all flavours in between, and it all boils down to the same mess of illogical, unsubstantiated beliefs. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I have argued with Christians who read the bible literally, allegorically and all flavours in between, and it all boils down to the same mess of illogical, unsubstantiated beliefs. So what exactly is your beef with Christians, buddy? Let 'em believe what they want. What's it to you? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Trojan John Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 So what exactly is your beef with Christians, buddy? Let 'em believe what they want. What's it to you? I have no beef with Christians or people of any faith as individuals. I've mentioned several times that people are free to believe what they want to believe. My beef comes when one takes those beliefs -- mystical, magical and unsubstantiated as they are -- and use them to influence politics, education and science. With regard to this thread, my beef is when said beliefs hinder and hurt people, and especially when they condemn 6 billion people to eternal torment. Cheers, buddy. Link to post Share on other sites
shadowofman Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Camping has done more damage to Christianity in three years than most atheists can do in a lifetime. The bible does more damage to Christianity than atheists ever could. We just point out the silliness of your own book. Link to post Share on other sites
shadowofman Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 Here we go again... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110524/ap_on_re_us/us_apocalypse_saturday Link to post Share on other sites
mickleb Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 (edited) I like this thread because it's got me thinking. (Yay!) There are many religious followers who wouldn't argue with proven science but there are many who would argue with the unproven stuff. I would question some of the scientific theories I've encountered. Now, some of this is because my brain really isn't smart enough to grasp certain concepts, but some of the ideas out there just seems like phooey. I don't quite know where I stand on time travel, for example, but think I'd probably go with 'phooey', if push came to shove. 'So who cares?', one might argue. Am I harming anyone with my personal beliefs? Well, obviously (like most people) I hope I'm not. But maybe I am. It's tricky to call. I suppose many religious followers are highly skeptical of the alternative theories put forward. Unfortunately, religious intolerance has resulted, unequivocally, in bloodshed and will continue to do so. But those who do not condone this behaviour in any way, are still dealt the unfortunate (shared) burden of responsibility for this by those who do not follow their faith. Is this really fair? There's nothing I enjoy more than a bit of figurative fundamentalist bashing (because they seem like such easy targets, don't they? ) but I think it's important to consider our own hypocrisy and doubt, when we start digging deeper. Hmmn. Still chewing it over.. x Ooh. Actually. I can't end this post without saying how MUCH damage I think people who 'don't believe' in contraception are doing to the world. Now, that sh*t is SERIOUS. But that's another thread. Edited May 27, 2011 by mickleb Needed to state the obvious. Link to post Share on other sites
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