Do you believe in a God??

[Tony T]

There are some people who don't believe in God their whole lives but, suddenly, when they end up on death row of a penitentiary, they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and repent. There's something about being close to death that makes believers out of non-believers....or maybe they're just hedging their bets.

[eye]

Everybody has a GOD, if one doesnt believe in the true Christ then he creates a God of his own.

[Arabess]

Originally posted by eye

Everybody has a GOD, if one doesnt believe in the true Christ then he creates a God of his own.

 

[Bill]

Originally posted by Tony

There are some people who don't believe in God their whole lives but, suddenly, when they end up on death row of a penitentiary, they accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior and repent. There's something about being close to death that makes believers out of non-believers....or maybe they're just hedging their bets.

 

Pascal's Wager.

[texan27]

Quite honestly I can't say that I firmly believe in anything anymore. I was raised Lutheran but I don't know what to make of it. On September 19, 2003 my older brother committed suicide. He was 21. Some religions believe that if you take your own life that you would go straight to hell. I can't believe that. I can't just disregard all of the wonderful things he accomplished in his life. I would like to believe that there is an afterlife and that he does hear me when I talk aloud to him but I'm not too sure since I also used to believe that God would never give us more than we can handle. If that were so, my brother would still be alive. I don't necessarily think that there has to be a God to have an afterlife.

 

If there is one thing I do believe its this:

God (if there is one) isn't perfect and he does give us more than we can handle.

 

Just two months after my brothers death my oldest brother was handed a 5 year prison term for violation of probation. He still has another year left and its eating my heart out that he's not here to help me. The judge wouldn't even let him go to the funeral and I haven't been able to touch my brother's skin since December 2002. (I go to college 1/2 across the country from home)

 

Right now this is more than I can handle. I feel like every part of me is ready to crumble beneath me. I just don't believe that if God exists that he's doing enough to help us. My parent's are literally losing their sanity and my brother and I are struggling to find 5 minutes of happiness in each day. The only thing that keeps us going is our future... getting married and having children.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by eye

Everybody has a GOD, if one doesnt believe in the true Christ then he creates a God of his own.

 

in that case, i am my own god. hmm... okay i can go for that since i turn to myself for whatever i need anyway.

 

now i need to create some ways to worship myself!

[jmargel]

Originally posted by HokeyReligions

Do you think that people who do not believe in god have no morals or substantially different morals? That is not true at all.

 

What would you consider a drop in societies morality? God and Morality have nothing to do with each other.

 

I believe people who do not have a faith in the afterlife and God do have a tendancy to have lower morals. For example, adultry. If one doesn't believe in God and to not covert his neighbor's wife, then what punishment is there for him?

 

The bible is a guide to help us make the right choices when it comes to morality. God and Morality do have alot to do with each other. It's what the bible tries to emphesize.

 

Just like if there were no laws, chaos would ensue. Religion is the same way. These people in the middle east who use religion as an excuse to kill in God's name are the one's that will be truly punished. God has given you life and the chance to make decisions. It's upto you on what to do with this life.

 

Some entity has brought the universe, the world, the land & water and life. It all starts somewhere.

 

Like I said before God and Religion is based on faith. If you are looking for physical proof that he exists you won't find it, except to look at the living creatures around you.

 

You mentioned if you believe in God and he doesn't exist that you were basically wasting your time. I'd like to know how though? If we could scientifically prove that God didn't exist would you even want to? I know I wouldn't. If technology became so advanced that we could prove we were created by some scienific phenomon then people would have no reason stop doing bad things. Just like laws are there to punish and prevent crimes from happening. Without laws crime would be more rampant, just as crime and lower morality if there were proof of no God.

 

There are somethings in life that are not meant to be understood. Society today has to have 'proof' about everything. Knowing what created us is a very magicial and mysterous event. This in itself should be left alone. Believing in a God gives us hope for a more peaceful and loving future in the afterlife.

 

As for how much heaven can hold, to me it's to infinity. Your physical body doesn't goto heaven, its your soul. Your soul doesn't take any physical space, but carries all the love and memories that you contain.

 

And if there is no afterlife that is just another reason why you should live everyday like it's your last and to love the ones you are with like it's your last.

[jmargel]

If you want scientific proof that God exist, here is a good article:

 

Moderator's Note: provide a link to the text if you like but do not quote lengthy pieces on this site, esp. w/o citation.

 

We have seen a practical proof of God's existence in this brief study. A flood of questions arise at this point. Which God are we talking about? Where did God come from? Why did God create us? How did God create us?

[wideawake]

Originally posted by jmargel

I believe people who do not have a faith in the afterlife and God do have a tendancy to have lower morals. For example, adultry. If one doesn't believe in God and to not covert his neighbor's wife, then what punishment is there for him?

 

Some of us have grown beyond the need to have our life and actions motivated by punishment.

 

For some it is enough to simply be a moral person and have that as it's own reward. I don't believe in a god, and I am still a person with very high moral standards. I take great pleasure in the fact that I am an honest person, that I respects others, and cherish the people in his life. For me this is enough. I do not base my actions on what I am afraid of, I try to keep fear and all of the evils that go along with it at a minimum in my life.

 

But, if you do need this threat of hell to maintain your morality, are you indeed a moral person? If you are so corrupt in your thoughts that you feel you would perform acts of immorality without the threat of punishment, how do you define your moral code? What does morality mean to a person that would be amoral without the blade of hell hanging over their throat?

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by wideawake

Some of us have grown beyond the need to have our life and actions motivated by punishment.

 

For some it is enough to simply be a moral person and have that as it's own reward. I don't believe in a god, and I am still a person with very high moral standards. I take great pleasure in the fact that I am an honest person, that I respects others, and cherish the people in his life. For me this is enough. I do not base my actions on what I am afraid of, I try to keep fear and all of the evils that go along with it at a minimum in my life.

 

But, if you do need this threat of hell to maintain your morality, are you indeed a moral person? If you are so corrupt in your thoughts that you feel you would perform acts of immorality without the threat of punishment, how do you define your moral code? What does morality mean to a person that would be amoral without the blade of hell hanging over their throat?

 

Fabulous! You said it so much better than I could.

 

[color=blue]jmargel wrote: I believe people who do not have a faith in the afterlife and God do have a tendancy to have lower morals. For example, adultry. If one doesn't believe in God and to not covert his neighbor's wife, then what punishment is there for him?

 

The bible is a guide to help us make the right choices when it comes to morality. God and Morality do have alot to do with each other. It's what the bible tries to emphesize.

 

Just like if there were no laws, chaos would ensue. Religion is the same way. These people in the middle east who use religion as an excuse to kill in God's name are the one's that will be truly punished. God has given you life and the chance to make decisions. It's upto you on what to do with this life. [/color]

 

Most, if not all, of the adulterers that I have known or met have all professed to be christians and have all claimed to be moral. I don't think the percentages of immorality among non-christians is any higher than the percentages among christians. I still maintain that human beings create their own morality and that it existed long before god or worship or faith. I think that promoting the idea that all the world would be in caos without god is false and is propoganda used to scare people into believing and following certain organized religions. A tool of manipulation. I don't sleep around (didn't when I was single either), I don't kill people, or stab them in the back, or try to take advantage of someones vulnerability. I have never killed anyone or stolen anything (well, probably some pens from the office that I just forgot about, but I've also left personal items behind in a job), I don't believe myself to be any better than anyone else, or any worse. By societies and christian standards I'm a pretty moral person.

 

Some people have faith in a diety and will follow those teachings out of fear, or out of love, or out of habit, or out of inertia. But whatever reason a person believes and follows their god of choice, I don't think that elevates their morality above anyone else or that there is a higher percentage of morals in the religious demographic vs. the secular demographic.

[Arabess]

I believe people have a right to believe anything they want to believe. It's not my busines nor my call.

 

I do not think Christians are more moral. I just think it bothers them more when they aren't. I actually FEEL my failures. Luckily, my God doesn't base His love on my morals.....and loves me in spite of them.

 

I got mad at God when my husband left me. He didn't just divorce me...he disappeared for several years after announcing from the pulpit that he had come to the conclusion he was 'gay'. He left me with two small children and a sh*tload of bills. The church wondered why I couldn't 'change' him and I really got a limited amount of support from people who should've been kinder and gentler. So, I backed off from them AND God. I decided to hell with THAT!

 

The only person I hurt though....was myself. Oh....all the heartaches I could've spared myself if only I had listened to my God and His teachings....instead of deciding I wanted to do it all MY WAY. I made such a mess of things. My lack of communication with Him has left me feeling quite empty and alone.

 

For me, it's never been about fear of death and hell. I serve a God of love....and I simply miss the relationship.

[wideawake]

Originally posted by Arabess

I do not think Christians are more moral. I just think it bothers them more when they aren't.

 

 

And please explain that difference to me? You've just contradicted yourself. If morality is not the inner voice telling us right from wrong, what is it exactly?

[Arabess]

Originally posted by wideawake

 

And please explain that difference to me? You've just contradicted yourself. If morality is not the inner voice telling us right from wrong, what is it exactly?

 

Morals come, go and change to suit ourselves. Mine have hit all time lows! Lucky for me.....my God still loves me thru it.

 

However, my inner voice shouldn't be based on the Law of Morality. My inner voice should be based on the Law of Love. As a Christian, I was left with only one commandment.....to love my neighbor as myself. When I blow it, it's not a matter of breaking a moral rule....it's a matter of having missed the whole point. I have failed miserably.

 

And when I do....I know it....my God knows it......and I'm going to be bothered by it. Not because I stumbled over a moral issue, God will forgive that, but because I missed the mark and still have so far to go.

[jmargel]

My mistake on a previous post, the link is here: http://www.doesgodexist.org

 

wideawake, then if you don't believe in God why do you have morales? You say that it has it's own rewards, but how?

 

And who has implanted this notion of morales? Where did you learn this from? Probabaly from folks who do believe in God.

 

After reading that site, (on that site, click on the first link which leads you to this: http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html

 

and then give me proof that he doesn't exist. Tangible proof would be nice, not just that 'I don't believe in him' that doesn't support your theory that he doesn't exist.

 

Hokey you stated

 

I still maintain that human beings create their own morality and that it existed long before god or worship or faith

 

So you are saying God does exist then. But then how could morality come before God? That doesn't make any sense.

 

I think that promoting the idea that all the world would be in caos without god is false and is propoganda used to scare people into believing and following certain organized religions.

 

I have never heard anyone say this before. People who believe in God and religion believe in him because of many other things than this.

 

For the ones who don't believe in God, then I would like to know how you think you got here? Do you really exist, or are you the imagination of some creation other than God?

[hurtingandconfused]

give me proof that he doesn't exist.

 

There is no proof for either sides. It's either you believe in God or you do not.

[jmargel]

Not entirely true. Yes it's all about faith but there is evidence to support the claim that God exist. Look at that link I posted above.

 

If you don't think God exists then tell me how you got here. How you became a living, breathing creature that can experience so many emotions and thoughts.

[HokeyReligions]

Post: 64 | Quote:

 

Hokey you stated

 

I still maintain that human beings create their own morality and that it existed long before god or worship or faith

 

So you are saying God does exist then. But then how could morality come before God? That doesn't make any sense.

 

Not at all. I realize now that the way I wrote it is confusing. I don't believe that god exists. What I meant was that long before people made their gods and developed a religion and faith, people had morals similar to the morals of today. The world was not caos with people running around killing each other and stealing from each other and rutting on the ground like animals after having made a commitment to another (well, that happens now! lol) before god was invented. As a species we have an innate moral code. That code was used and developed by organized religions to promote their own agendas. It's a common psychological ploy - find something in someone else and use or exploit it for your own benefit. The conflict that exists is because christians believe that there were no humans before god created them, and agnostics like myself believe that humans existed long before the christian god supposedly created them. It's like trying to debate who would win a fight - Superman or Mighty Mouse.

Or discussing how man lived with the dinosaurs.

 

quote:I think that promoting the idea that all the world would be in caos without god is false and is propoganda used to scare people into believing and following certain organized religions.

 

I have never heard anyone say this before. People who believe in God and religion believe in him because of many other things than this.

I'm talking about morality not about the reasons for believing in a god. morality and god and not the same thing. Organized religions have and do use scare tactics. But people who do not believe in god are just as moral as any god-fearing person. I used that phrase 'god-fearing' for a reason. I'm sure most of us have heard that used before to describe someone who believes in god. It ties back to what wideawake said. I also said, in this thread or another, that people believe in their gods for a lot of reasons. Fear, Love, Habit, Conditioning, Ignorance, Inertia, etc.

 

For the ones who don't believe in God, then I would like to know how you think you got here? Do you really exist, or are you the imagination of some creation other than God?

I got here because my parents had sex, my mother got pregnant when my fathers sperm impregnanted her egg, and I evolved from that 'little-bang' and was born. Humans and all life on the planet, and the planet itself got here probably from the collision of other 'bodies' which produced elements that joined together to form the nucleus of life and life evolved. Big Bang Theory.

 

I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop believing in whatever god they choose to believe in. I don't demand proof of existence or proof of non-existence - especially since existing 'proof' is all subjective anyway.

 

Its like earning trust -- it might take a lot of effort and a long time to earn trust from one person, and be pretty easy to earn it from someone else. What proves gods existence to you doesn't prove it to me.

[sweetbilly]

I agree Jmargel, if you want more physical proof go here http://www.pinkosi.com or go to "creation in the 21st century" both have scientific evidence that supports a creationist christian view.

 

Arabess, I have a question for you. We are supposed to love people, right? So, do you think that what God meant is that if we love people the way he loves people, that we should want the best for them the way God want's the best for them. And i'm not thinking about earthly pleasures, I'm talking about heavenly rewards. Because I feel that heavenly rewards (eternal life) are based on the morality passed to us in the scriptures and are one in the same. I'm just curous as to your feelings

[sweetbilly]

Hokey, I believe the third law of thermodynamics proves that energy can not just suddenly form from nothing, it changes from one form to another and never disappears either. Therefore, nothing could just happen from nothing. There had to be something there to get the ball rolling in the begining, kind of the ol' chicken or egg thing.

[jmargel]

Exactly. Nothing can be made from nothing. God isn't a physical entity either. Like the Bible said in the first sentence 'God created heaven and earth'. What my interpretation was that God created time.

 

I don't demand proof of existence or proof of non-existence - especially since existing 'proof' is all subjective anyway.

 

I'm sorry but that was a weak statement. You can't prove God doesn't exist or base a case that would convince others shouldn't, so then you say "I don't demand proof from you, so I shouldnt have to give you any". Your whole arguement is that God doesn't exist. We should at least hear why you believe this.

 

 

 

As a species we have an innate moral code. That code was used and developed by organized religions to promote their own agendas. It's a common psychological ploy - find something in someone else and use or exploit it for your own benefit. The conflict that exists is because christians believe that there were no humans before god created them, and agnostics like myself believe that humans existed long before the christian god supposedly created them.

 

I don't believe we have an 'innate' morale code. Morales have to deal with how you are raised in your environment which not only consist of parents, family, friends, but God as well.

 

Also you still haven't told us who created you. Saying 'two' bodies smashed together to form all of this. Well then who or what created those 'two' bodies?

[HokeyReligions]

Exactly. Nothing can be made from nothing. God isn't a physical entity either. Like the Bible said in the first sentence 'God created heaven and earth'. What my interpretation was that God created time. I'm not sure where this statement came from, but I think I understand your interpretation. I don't agree with you.

 

http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni/uni_101bb1.html

Big Bang Cosmology

 

quote:I don't demand proof of existence or proof of non-existence - especially since existing 'proof' is all subjective anyway.

 

I'm sorry but that was a weak statement. You can't prove God doesn't exist or base a case that would convince others shouldn't, so then you say "I don't demand proof from you, so I shouldnt have to give you any". Your whole arguement is that God doesn't exist. We should at least hear why you believe this.

 

Why are you sorry? I don't think it was a weak statement - certainly no weaker then someone saying they believie in god because god told them to. Are you searching for proof that god does not exist? You won't find it. Just as there is no proof that god does exist. I stated that I am not trying to convince anyone to give up their religion or their faith. If I said something that threatened you in some way then you have to deal with that. You want to hear why I think god does not exist? I've said it many times before. Because no one - not the posters on this board, not the ministers of the churches I've talked to, not the theology professors - no one has been able to provide to me any concrete proof of god existence. No one has provided proof that god does not exist. I choose to not believe just as you choose to believe. Everything can be disputed, logically and mathematically for or against gods existence. It is fruitless for anyone to argue that on this board.

 

quote:As a species we have an innate moral code. That code was used and developed by organized religions to promote their own agendas. It's a common psychological ploy - find something in someone else and use or exploit it for your own benefit. The conflict that exists is because christians believe that there were no humans before god created them, and agnostics like myself believe that humans existed long before the christian god supposedly created them.

 

I don't believe we have an 'innate' morale code. Morales have to deal with how you are raised in your environment which not only consist of parents, family, friends, but God as well.

 

There is the difference. You don't believe that people have their own moral code without outside influence and I do. You are right for you, but not for me. I am right for me, but not for you. Environment can and does have influence on all aspects of our lives. People who believe in a god tie everything in their lives to their belief. Thats fine for you and others who believe, but not for me. as far as I'm concerned there is no god, but that does not mean that there are no morals.

 

Also you still haven't told us who created you. Saying 'two' bodies smashed together to form all of this. Well then who or what created those 'two' bodies?

 

No one knows how the universe, the planet, life forms, etc. began. That is the point. Its belief and faith. I have faith in my own abilities and I do not credit some alleged god with my strength or my successess anymore than I blame some alleged devil with my weaknesses or failures. You cannot tell me how you were 'created' either. You can only tell me what you believe and have faith in.

 

I don't have all the answers and neither do you. No one does. We have our opinions and our beliefs only. Mine are answers enough for me, are your beliefs answer enough for you?

[Arabess]

Originally posted by jmargel

Exactly. Nothing can be made from nothing. God isn't a physical entity either. Like the Bible said in the first sentence 'God created heaven and earth'. What my interpretation was that God created time.

What a great revelation!!!

 

My son asked me earlier this week why there were so many different churches. I had to admit I didn't know. He replied that he thought HE knew. It was because if there was only one church with the only truth, you would only have to go there and not bother to have to go to God for the real stuff. LOL!

 

Maybe there is a point to that. It's not as simple as purchasing a book or tape in the church bookstore....it HAS to be a face to face seeking of the heart.

 

....gosh, I'm late to a friend's house....back later.....

[pav186]

Originally posted by jmargel

Not entirely true. Yes it's all about faith but there is evidence to support the claim that God exist. Look at that link I posted above.

 

If you don't think God exists then tell me how you got here. How you became a living, breathing creature that can experience so many emotions and thoughts.

 

That certainly not evidence for the existence of god. You could use evolution to explain how our emotions and thoughts helped our species survive. A lot of our emotions can be tied directly to an evolutionary benefit. But this does only go back so far, until the first living creature, what made it?

 

Ive heard of the "mitochondrial accident" and supposed free floating organelles that accidentally combined to form the first cell and then it evolved form there. I think thats how that theory goes anyway, im gonna have to run a google on it...

[Arabess]

Originally posted by sweetbilly

Arabess, I have a question for you. We are supposed to love people, right? So, do you think that what God meant is that if we love people the way he loves people, that we should want the best for them the way God want's the best for them. And i'm not thinking about earthly pleasures, I'm talking about heavenly rewards. Because I feel that heavenly rewards (eternal life) are based on the morality passed to us in the scriptures and are one in the same. I'm just curous as to your feelings

 

I think we should want the best for them.....but we have no right to impose upon anyone what our version of 'best' is. I may swear by the perfect laundry detergent for ME.....but it doesn't mean it will clean SOMEONE ELSE'S clothes. They have the free will and right to chose their OWN detergent.

 

There is a verse in the Bible to the context of: You have dunamis (God Like) power to BE a witness. People take this as DOING witnessing. Not one and the same. One is something you say in words. The other is something you LIVE which makes other's want what you have.

 

Because of my translation of that verse.....I never say anything about how I believe unless asked.

 

Jesus never went door to door. He simply WAS who He IS........ and people either accepted Him or rejected Him. He gave all people the respect of personal choice....and I have no option but to honor the same respect of personal choice that HE gave.

 

His word is MY word and I believe......but I have no right to IMPOSE that belief on someone else. Either someone chooses it....or they don't.

[dyermaker]

I agree with sweetbilly, that morality is a product of God.

 

However, I think that it is NOT a product of religion, at all.

 

People who live moral lives are doing God's work, and following God's law, whether they believe in God or not.