Apology NOT accepted

[debtman]

Separated 7 months now after W left me for OM. Sent me MANY emails about how unhappy she was in our marriage, how unfairly I treated her, how she was never a priority for me, etc. Took 3 months or so for me to really hit the 180 and go as NC/LC as I could (we've got 2 young kids).

 

A few weeks ago I suspected that stbx and OM are no longer together. Didn't see his car at her house anymore at drop-off/pick-ups, kids stopped talking about him being over and she told me several times that she was having some "hard times."

 

The last week or so she's been asking me when I can come over to dinner and tells me that the "kids keep asking" when I'm coming. Although, they've never asked me when they're at my house.

 

She also asked me the other day if I wanted to fly down with her and the kids to spend a few days with her family so I can "help with flying with the kids." Not a chance...I'd be glad to fly down by myself and bring the kids back up. I have no problem flying with both of them and dealing with that. I love to travel. She is a horrible traveler and our last flight down to see her family was miserable and I can't imagine her doing it by herself with the kids...Oh well...

 

Yesterday she called because her car battery was dead and she was supposed to go pick up our daughter after school. She didn't know what else to do or who she could call (she doesn't have any family or real friends in the area). I left work, went to her house and gave her car a jump start...only because she was supposed to pick up our daughter.

 

Last night I get a long email from her thanking me for "saving" her and apologizing for how poorly she treated me in our marriage. How unfair she always was to me and how mean she treated me.

 

She said she's been reading lots of books about marriage and relationships and has learned lots about herself and about what she had done wrong, how she had been so controlling and bossy.

 

At first, I thought it was nice that she was apologizing and making some changes/coming to some realizations. She probably only apologized to me twice in our entire 10 year relationship.

 

But, upon further reflection, I realize that she's still being as self-serving and controlling as ever. She's only apologizing because OM tossed her aside (probably after discovering how controlling and mean she is) and now she has no one.

 

She's also being as mean as ever. She can see that I'm finally moving on, coming to grips with the emotional pain she caused me and now she's saying this to try to bring up those old emotions in me...it's just mean. I'm sure it's not a conscious thing for her, but most of her meanness wasn't blatant.

 

At this point, I'm not sure how to handle this email. Part of me wants to ignore it (which will make her angry), and part of me wants to swing back at her and tell her that reading books isn't the way to make real changes and she needs to see a counselor and get some REAL help. She will NEVER have a successful relationship until she admits that she's not happy with herself and that she has some real problems...but she won't.

 

Unfortunately, neither of those replies will help the situation. We are still co-parents and the nicer we can be towards each other, the better it will be for the kids. I just need to be careful to not give her ANY indication that there's ever a chance for the two of us again.

 

So, I think what I'll do is take the path of least antagonism and send her a short reply saying "I appreciate the sentiments." and then change the topic to something relating to the kids.

 

Input?

[bernardverh]

So, I think what I'll do is take the path of least antagonism and send her a short reply saying "I appreciate the sentiments." and then change the topic to something relating to the kids.

 

Input?

 

Both the options of ignoring as well as the rude reaction would make no sense and wouldn't bring you anywhere. Your conclusion is correct and the best solution.

 

This situation sounds as if there's a chance that the you two could get back together. Your post isn't clear about this; do you want this, or absolutely not?

[debtman]

bernardverh,

 

No chance of getting back together. I firmly believe that the ONLY reason she sent this is because OM is out of the picture and she's just looking for another man to fill the void in her life and I'm the most convenient person. I did that for her when we first met and won't get caught in that trap again.

 

She was so eager to leave our M, leave me and told me many times, in many ways how wrong we always were for each other. Now, she's suddenly changed her tune. I'm sure that if OM was still in the picture I would have never gotten this email.

 

I would love to think we could do something to save our M, for the sake of the kids if nothing else, but I don't see her ever REALLY doing anything to address her issues, fix her problems and make REAL changes. I'm just not willing to put myself back into a situation where she could hurt me like that again.

 

I ended up sending an email saying "thanks, but no apologies necessary, everyone makes mistakes and all we can do is learn from them." and then I changed the subject...hopefully that's neutral enough...

 

Certainly not what I wanted to say, but I think it was the right thing to say under the circumstances.

[carhill]

Can you accept her reflections/admissions/apologies as valid without assigning emotional impact or purpose to them? IOW, see them as a positive for her and in no way indicative of compatibility for any future relationship.

 

My perspective is that I'm hearing a remaining emotional attachment, from you. Once that is concluded, and acceptance of the past without color or texture rules the day, the likelihood of healthy co-parenting and/or a *new* relationship is possible, presuming *both* parties walk the path.

[debtman]

Can you accept her reflections/admissions/apologies as valid without assigning emotional impact or purpose to them? IOW, see them as a positive for her and in no way indicative of compatibility for any future relationship.

 

My perspective is that I'm hearing a remaining emotional attachment, from you. Once that is concluded, and acceptance of the past without color or texture rules the day, the likelihood of healthy co-parenting and/or a *new* relationship is possible, presuming *both* parties walk the path.

 

Good observation. I would LIKE to accept what she is saying as honest self-assessment. Perhaps I can't because of the anger that I still have towards her for what she did, or for the financial situation she's put me in or for the time I'm missing with my kids. But, the timing just seems too suspect to me. She's always had a mean/controlling streak and she's always jumped from one relationship/marriage into another. I've told her for years that she needs to find hobbies, interests and, most importantly, friends, but she prefers to foster online relationship and hook onto one person who she can spend all her time with and is willing to spend all their time with her.

 

I would REALLY like to think that one day we can be "friends" again and have a healthy friendship with each other so that our kids can see that. I've always thought she was an amazing, talented, smart, creative person but she's always been plagued with self-doubt, lack of self-confidence and social anxiety. Tie that into her stubbornness, controlling personality, inability to admit that she is at fault for anything, OCD and mean tendencies and I have a hard time thinking she doesn't have ulterior motives in this.

 

She says that she's learning things from reading some self-help books, but she's never been willing to do any sort of counseling or seek any sort of help.

 

Maybe I'm just jaded, and I know I haven't completely gotten over my anger towards her or "forgiven" her yet...and I probably won't until I can work things out to have more even time with the kids and have recovered financially. I know forgiveness is the right thing and it will help me move on. I've removed myself emotionally from all my dealings with her for 5 months but I certainly have lots of resentment and anger towards her...

 

I think I may start another thread sometime about forming friendships with exes and how to deal with that emotionally. I know it's the right thing to do, but it's just not something I can do right now feeling the way I do...

 

Thanks for the insight...

[blueskyday]

You seem to be in touch with how you are feeling and analyzing what happened in your marriage...good things!

 

I understand you don't trust your ex right now, and you don't have to. She may be working through things herself and is truly sorry, or she may have a motive. No need to know the difference since you don't want to get back with her.

 

Simply respond to her email in a neutral way, as in "Glad you are working through things. I hope you will be very happy in the future."

 

Hug to you. Been where you are...It gets so much better soon...

[debtman]

Hug to you. Been where you are...It gets so much better soon...

 

Thanks, you are right, it does get better and has for the past few months. At first, I didn't know how I was going to deal with it, had a HARD time with the emotions, the loss of time with the kids, missing my old life, etc. The past few months have really turned around, I'm feeling much better, feeling much more excited about life, MY future and my options are limitless.

 

Just getting that email from her brought up that slew of old emotions that I thought I had dealt with, but, have been suppressing and ignoring. Just helps me to realize that I still have a lot of work to do, but it's all for a good cause...ME!

 

Thanks!

[worldgonewrong]

debtman- I think it would be OK if you diplomatically suggested that she seek some help/counsel/therapy. You never know. You might see some seismic improvements.

[ver13]

Dedtman,

 

IMO you handled the current situation with her rather well which is cool. Just try and remember that your stbx is a partner forever in the co-parenting process until the kids are on their own so to speak. An even then you will have to work the grand parent game with her too. I always say that it doesn't matter what her intent is, it's my response that counts. So continue to be the one that stands on the moral high ground and let your kids see you for who and what you truly are a "Good Man". In the end they will look back at how you handled all of this drama and they will be proud of how you continued to do the right and often hard things just to stay in their lives.

[Craig2425]

Stick with something neutral you still have a life time to deal with her so no need for fights when you can be the bigger person.

As for her she might be sorry for what she has done to you. You're angry and hurt so of course you're going to assume the worst and think she doesn't really mean it or for the wrong reasons.

She also might be working on herself and thinking about counseling.

I wouldn't get caught up in her intentions so much and just take her apology.keep doing the same stuff you have been doing to make you happy.

I like that you came here and calmed down before firing off an angry email.

[Yasuandio]

debtman- I think it would be OK if you diplomatically suggested that she seek some help/counsel/therapy. You never know. You might see some seismic improvements.

 

OMG WGW. It would take some seismic theraputic magicians too. More than one person was surprised Debtman hadn't commited a crime with what she shoved down his throat. My biggest fear is she'd pull it again, and too, Debtman would never have peace of mind.

 

Most people repeat such patterns of behavior - and she's in "rescue me" mode right now. Is she representing a realistic self examination? Or is this a self-serving pitty party? For instance, what stimulated all of this? Why self help books now? What has brought about regrets and apologies? Is there a motive?

 

Here's what really concerns me. The children. They had developed an extremely close attachment to OM. In hindsight, this was just terrible judgment on your wife's part (and, no matter what OM promised, as I recall, he was technically unavailable). If she no longer has the relationship with this man who was acting in a psudo-dad position, this conclusion is not unlike a psychological abondonment in a child's mind. Again, in hindsight, your wife should have been descrete until the relationship was at least leget.

 

These are things I just didn't think about before, as the stuff happening to Debtman was horendous enough.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts Debtman. I think you handled well. And I would be cautious about that hornet's nest. If she can manipulate her self into your house, it won't be your house anymore.

[dreamingoftigers]

Good observation. I would LIKE to accept what she is saying as honest self-assessment. Perhaps I can't because of the anger that I still have towards her for what she did, or for the financial situation she's put me in or for the time I'm missing with my kids. But, the timing just seems too suspect to me. She's always had a mean/controlling streak and she's always jumped from one relationship/marriage into another. I've told her for years that she needs to find hobbies, interests and, most importantly, friends, but she prefers to foster online relationship and hook onto one person who she can spend all her time with and is willing to spend all their time with her.

 

I would REALLY like to think that one day we can be "friends" again and have a healthy friendship with each other so that our kids can see that. I've always thought she was an amazing, talented, smart, creative person but she's always been plagued with self-doubt, lack of self-confidence and social anxiety. Tie that into her stubbornness, controlling personality, inability to admit that she is at fault for anything, OCD and mean tendencies and I have a hard time thinking she doesn't have ulterior motives in this.

 

She says that she's learning things from reading some self-help books, but she's never been willing to do any sort of counseling or seek any sort of help.

 

Maybe I'm just jaded, and I know I haven't completely gotten over my anger towards her or "forgiven" her yet...and I probably won't until I can work things out to have more even time with the kids and have recovered financially. I know forgiveness is the right thing and it will help me move on. I've removed myself emotionally from all my dealings with her for 5 months but I certainly have lots of resentment and anger towards her...

 

I think I may start another thread sometime about forming friendships with exes and how to deal with that emotionally. I know it's the right thing to do, but it's just not something I can do right now feeling the way I do...

 

Thanks for the insight...

 

I am gonna sound like an ******* here but:

 

1. You can't read minds so you don't know for sure what her motivations are whatsoever.

 

2. You have no idea what/if something happened with OM. For all you know she kicked his ass out the door because she read some stuff in one of her books and the light went on. He could even just be on vacation or away on business and the light went on and now she doesn't know how to see if there is half of a rat's chance with you.

 

3. You have no idea what she is reading and you don't know if this might spark further changes. You aren't in close quarters so you don't know what she has changed or not changed and a 10% effort is a million times better then no effort at all.

 

Here:

 

Lousy spouse|-------------------------|Perfect Spouse.

 

She might have started at the first line as only gotten as far as the second dash. But that is a minor success. That is better then nothing and she could really build on that, lots of room to grow. Each one of those dashes is closer to perfection. But no person reaches that. A "great success" would be around 80%. Each of the spaces between the dashes represents a failing. Just like the rest of us she will trip her way to the finish line if she has positive encouragement to do so.

 

By getting upset,angry or agitated by her "non-effort" that can take away the few little percentages she did get without providing any incentive to go through the failures.

 

Even though you may not want her to be your spouse, encouraging positive change in someone is by no means a defeat. At the very least she can learn it and share it with your children.

 

Don't think I am not empathetic. The reason I share is that back in November my H went on meds and started working his treatment and putting efforts into our marriage. I let him know how much I thought of his little efforts and shot him down from the sky. They ended abruptly, he lost hope. About four weeks later his addiction took full ownership of him.

[UnsureinSeattle]

Regardless of her (possible) motives, I think you handled it in exactly the right way.

 

I'm cynical enough to believe that suddenly the light went on because the OM could very well be out of the picture... but who knows. None of us are there, and none of us are mind readers.

[Yasuandio]

Scenero: OM's pattern of being there has ended for the moment. Wife starts reaching out with apologies, mention of self-help literature, and psudo-self examination (all of which are out of character).

 

Something is happening here. And, Wife omited a critical piece of information.

 

This we can probably be sure of.

[love4me2c]

I don't agree with some of the other posters here about what she may be up to or doing. I am probably a lot like your wife but I'm not with someone who broke up my marriage. I met my current boyfriend after the separation. Over the last few months, I've done a lot of introspection about things that went wrong in my marriage. In fact, I just sent an email last night to my STBX about the things I did that contributed to the breakdown of our marriage. I've asked him to add to the list if he so chooses.

 

I'm not looking to reconcile. During my time of introspection, I have recognized that my spouse and I are not really a good match. I think he believes that, too. He has also been going on with his life. There have been times where I've been jealous of that and upset that he may be with someone else now. Silly given I am with someone else now as well, but it is still hard. I was with him for the last 15 years, we have history and children together. I hope one day we can be friends again but it will not be anytime soon.

 

I think that recognizing one's faults is a good thing. Also regardless if you reconcile or not, we all need feedback on ways to improve ourselves so we don't bring these same problems into another relationship.

 

Also, asking you to assist with children isn't a big deal. I help my STBX and he'll help me. It doesn't mean you're a doormat. It just means you are coparenting your children. Just my 2 cents....

[cyabye]

Her email has nothing to do with the children right? I wouldn't even respond. But that's me......

 

cya

[Woggle]

You can forgive her but never trust her again.

[cyabye]

Agreed Woggle. Sure I forgive you and I want nothing to do with you ever again......

 

cya

[NXS]

Debtman you've come a long long way...... congratulations!

 

From some of your earlier threads you were still emotionally tied up with her and wanted to get back together. Perhaps it was the unavailability which heightened your desire, and now that it's gone you're reflecting further.

 

May I remind you that this is the same woman who went off with another man and expected you to play happy families as if nothing had happened. The trust and respect is gone. She hasn't been forced to change one iota and now she's back looking for comfort.

 

You on the other hand have been forced to adopt to the changes and you are still deeply resentful of what she put you through. Remember you were walking on eggshells so that you could still be a part of your childrens' lives? Remember all the hoops you went through to get back into your family home?

 

Don't go back, you've been a solid rock and deserve much better than her, no more sloppy seconds. Don't even entertain the idea of MC or trying to make allowances for her, move forward and let her feel the full outcomes of her decisions.

[Yasuandio]

Debtman you've come a long long way...... congratulations!

 

From some of your earlier threads you were still emotionally tied up with her and wanted to get back together. Perhaps it was the unavailability which heightened your desire, and now that it's gone you're reflecting further.

 

May I remind you that this is the same woman who went off with another man and expected you to play happy families as if nothing had happened. The trust and respect is gone. She hasn't been forced to change one iota and now she's back looking for comfort.

 

You on the other hand have been forced to adopt to the changes and you are still deeply resentful of what she put you through. Remember you were walking on eggshells so that you could still be a part of your childrens' lives? Remember all the hoops you went through to get back into your family home?

 

Don't go back, you've been a solid rock and deserve much better than her, no more sloppy seconds. Don't even entertain the idea of MC or trying to make allowances for her, move forward and let her feel the full outcomes of her decisions.

 

 

NSX.....I feel my BP go up when I think of a few events Debtman had to eat. Especially when OM picked up phone and said "XYZ's Residence." That one really galled me.

 

Debtman, it was not all that long ago, perhaps only two months or so, that I even mentioned something about your understandable resentment. That ain't gonna go away very soon. And any "marital contact" (I don't mean sex) should probably stay out of the picture until that resentment has been taken care of. Speaking of which, I found this book to be a great read: "How Can I Forgive You? The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To" by Janis Abrahms Spring, Ph.D. The interesting thing I learned about giving forgiveness too easily is that it can make you sick. This is very well true in my case - as I have dishes out what Spring refers to as "Cheap Forgiveness" time and time again, while swallowing my pain (which is now resurfacing in another form). In your case, we wouldn't want that resentment repressed - it would have to be worked out or it will indeed make itself known later own.

 

I think it was NXS that also pointed out the "unavailability" factor, which is so darn true, and, of course, works both ways. My, my, how tables can turn. Don't be taken in by this!

 

Another thought. The old ILYBINILWY line. Perhaps there is some meaning and definition to this phrase afterall. Debtman of couse loves the mother of his children and the woman too. But THE human being he cherished, whom had grown to be his trusted life partner, (or so he believed), I could see where Debtman would no longer be "in love" with her. All Debtman has to do is engage his imagination of what obviously occured in the master while his children slept in the next rooms. I'd say that "huge gross-out" factor would surely disappear the "in love" feeling right fast. Then, given all the other blatently sadistic, obnoxious, exhibitionistic, selfish, painful, narcissistic, brutal, hateful, embarassing situations, events, behaviors he endured (leaving the LS community in complete and utter awe), I'd say she pretty much put the cabash on her future with this good man.

 

You asked for thoughts, these are some I, at least think are better to have now, than to have occur to you after a honeymoon. Since I make mistakes once in awhile, I sure hope this is not one of them. Therefore, let me apologize in advance. You know I always have good intentions! Yas

 

PS Told ya so!

[whichwayisup]

She was so eager to leave our M, leave me and told me many times, in many ways how wrong we always were for each other

 

Make it clear to HER how she was the one saying for a long time how wrong you two were for eachother and that she was unhappy. Take it a step further, not to patronize her, but to show sympathy, by letting her know that right now must be rough on her but it's best to keep things as "mom and dad", co parents..And friends. Nothing more, nothing less. That's letting her know in a gentle way that you are not interested in renewing the marriage and getting back together. She has to figure herself out FOR herself, and to be a better mom, better person.

 

You are taking the higher ground on this, she doesn't deserve it at all, but at the end of the day, you can look yourself in the mirror and know you've done the right thing by treating her well and with respect because she's the mother of your children.

 

She may not understand that for a long time, but it will make a difference to the kids, they'll see your kindness and feel good knowing that you don't hate "mommy" even though you two aren't together anymore.

[Yasuandio]

Make it clear to HER how she was the one saying for a long time how wrong you two were for eachother and that she was unhappy. Take it a step further, not to patronize her, but to show sympathy, by letting her know that right now must be rough on her but it's best to keep things as "mom and dad", co parents..And friends. Nothing more, nothing less. That's letting her know in a gentle way that you are not interested in renewing the marriage and getting back together. She has to figure herself out FOR herself, and to be a better mom, better person.

 

You are taking the higher ground on this, she doesn't deserve it at all, but at the end of the day, you can look yourself in the mirror and know you've done the right thing by treating her well and with respect because she's the mother of your children.

 

She may not understand that for a long time, but it will make a difference to the kids, they'll see your kindness and feel good knowing that you don't hate "mommy" even though you two aren't together anymore.

 

Whichwayisup knows which way is up. Class act response. It didn't even happen to me and I am so eff'in mad. Debtman, as usual, LS gives ya both sides of the coin. Gotta admit I really like this one.

[Steadfast]

This is a very insightful discussion.

 

Parallel universe Debtman. I went through various, similar periods with my ex. It's been three years, and presently her cycle has leveled off to disdain.

 

Of all the responses, Dreamingoftigers hit the nail closest for me. Bottom line, even in my ex's darkest, loneliest moments she remained reserved to a point and wouldn't fully open up. Come clean with what she was feeling and why. That left me in the unenviable position of -once again- trying to read her mind and guess the whats, whys and wheres. The only thing I could then, and now say about that is; screw it. I needed to break. To fold.

 

Reconciliation of a broken marriage and repairing a broken family could be a beautiful thing. I truly believe. I never doubted my love. I did, with all good intent, everything I could to make it happen. But one person can't carry an entire relationship on their shoulders. That doesn't work. There is more to love than just being there for someone. True love allows growth and freedom. It's encouraging, and happy, and secure. Strength in times of weakness and humility when stepping back is the loving thing to do.

 

Push love away enough times and it stays away. That's what my ex learned. Truth is, I have no idea what she wants or needs, and experience has directed me to believe she doesn't either. A person who doesn't love themselves is incapable of nothing more than physical manifestations.

 

Screw that.

[debtman]

Thanks to everyone for all the great responses. Love this place. Always good insight and opinions...

 

ver13, being co-parents and the welfare of the kids is THE driving factor in all my dealings with her at this point. If it weren't for that, I would have gone completely NC long ago.

 

craig2425, you're right, she may actually be making the improvements she's talking about and coming to the realizations, but the timing (and my emotions) make me suspect. As you said though, it's not worth worrying about and, it doesn't matter anyway.

 

Yas, I worry how the kids are perceiving this as well. When we went to mediation, our mediator pointed out how important it was to wait at least 6-9 months (according to "industry experts") before introducing a new relationship to the kids. This statement really p'd off my W since she had already introduced OM to kids and he was already sleeping over. She was just so sure it was the perfect fit. I can't tell you how many e-mails I have from her telling me about how great OM was, how incredibly they got along and how much the kids loved him...and yes, he is still married, his wife is fighting their D tooth and nail and is doing everything she can to turn his kids against him...and yes, you did "tell me so." Don't worry, I haven't forgotten any of the things she did, the things she said or the complete turn-around she made on our 10-year relationship. I can't forget about the selfishness and utter disregard for our kids and myself as she got caught up with OM. I'll never forget watching her get all "dolled" up and head out for a date with OM, all excited, while I stayed home to put the kids to bed, wondering what decision they were going to make about our marriage that night...never again...

 

dot, yes, she may be making positive changes and I can't read her mind. I should encourage her to work on herself, for the sake of the kids and her future, but my emotions and the way she treated me before make me hesitant to trust this.

 

love4me2c, absolutely. I came to grips with the mistakes I made and the shortcomings I have that contributed to the state our relationship was in and am determined to focus on those and not repeat those mistakes in my next relationship. However, I never felt the need to apologize to her about those. She's always been a very guilt-ridden person and I haven't, so maybe she's just doing it because she honestly feels that it will make me feel better about her decisions, but I can't help thinking that she's still trying to manipulate the situation to see if there's any chance at reconciliation...which there isn't.

 

woggle and cyabye, yep, thanks. Forgiveness is something I strive for, but I don't feel I'll be able to truly forgive until I get past the hurdles that her decisions have thrown into my life. I always try to stay as NC/LC as possible. Sometimes she rambles on with conversations and I have things that I could say, but I don't, I just focus on the kids or politely say thanks and leave.

 

NXS, don't worry, there's NO chance of going back. There's NO hope for any sort of MC. I would love to see her go to IC for the sake of the kids, but I don't think that will ever happen unless her life falls apart lots more. She is still living in her own fantasy world, even if OM and I are no longer in it.

 

whichwayisup, excellent diplomatic advice. I think she has already re-written her actions during the break-up in her own head and is probably trying to figure out how to rationalize the emails she sent about our horrible marriage, her unhappiness, my unfair treatment of her, etc. Much of that came across in her email, saying that she "couldn't see" how her constant criticism and complaining was "driving me" to treat her the way I did. All I know is that it doesn't matter anymore. I hope she spends some time working on herself before jumping into another relationship, but, she's attractive, puts up a good front for a while and is extremely active online, so she'll have no problem finding the next guy and will most likely jump right into another relationship before working on herself. Hopefully, next time, she'll wait before dragging the kids into a "relationship" with the next guy.

 

Thanks again to all...

[debtman]

True love allows growth and freedom. It's encouraging, and happy, and secure. Strength in times of weakness and humility when stepping back is the loving thing to do.

...

A person who doesn't love themselves is incapable of nothing more than physical manifestations.

 

Screw that.

 

Beautifully put...I completely agree and am looking forward to finding that "true love" in the future...and, I really do hope my stbx finds that as well someday, but, she never will until she figures out how to love herself...and that is no longer my problem...