Change is gettin' bold!

[ShatteredReality]

This gets to something that a lot of people in my life are expressing right now.

 

I'm letting my spouse go on sending me mixed signals because I want them. I'm doing things to make her happy, things I should have done when we were together, because I want to.

 

Every time I make her happy, I feel like that wall comes down a bit.

 

But it's also not taking care of myself.

 

I will get heat for saying this...don't read into it more than it is. I am being perfectly blunt here. How many years did she neglect taking care of herself to take care of you and get nothing in return??

 

I am not advocating neglecting yourself or letting her walk all over you, but put things into perspective...that's all...just look at it objectively. I spent years putting myself last...when I stopped doing that and put myself before him for a little while I felt a wash of guilt...but I also wasn't going back to where I was....it took time to strike the balance - and it was impossible to do until he had me back to wanting to be his wife again. How long you're willing to wait is up to you.

 

Given the full situation, I want her to see who I CAN BE. I don't want to give up the fight while there's still a fight to be in. I see doing the 180 as being about yourself and not your spouse. Part of a 180 for me would be suddenly doing those caring things that I left unsaid or undone in the depths of my depression. Doing things that are truly surprising to her after so long.

 

This board is littered with the stories of people that did everything they could to show themselves as the best spouse possible, but nothing they did made a difference until they truly gave up and moved on (or at least appeared to). Then there are stories like ShatteredReality's, where those little actions seemed to poke holes in the wall and eventually made the walls come down. Then there are those situations that were just too far gone to save.

 

All of our stories are just that - OUR stories. You are making your own. There are no "rules" and it won't follow a specific script. EACH action has a positive or negative reaction. Even those who "tried so hard" may have made fatal mistakes during their "trying so hard". Not that they need to kick themselves or anything of that sort...but I tend to believe any story CAN be a happy one IF IF IF both parties do what they need to in order to make it so...BOTH....and how long one puts up with the other NOT doing it is a personal choice. The hard part is trusting the other one will step up eventually...cause ONE person cannot save it all by themselves IN the END.

 

I dont know which story I'm in. If I cut off all communication, there's no way for her to see that I'm a different person. But if I don't cut off all communication and I continue to be her spouse while she wants to be single... I'm not respecting myself. But I get to see her smile when something unexpected that I do breaks through the anger and resentment. I treasure those moments. It's an awful bind.

 

The fastest way to failure is giving up. But when are you giving up and when are you just in denial?

 

I guess I fundamentally don't understand the 180 at all.

 

I know nothing about the 180....

 

Having said that...part of making all of these changes it learning to be happy with who you are. Doing the things you're doing to make her smile and make her happy are HUGE - continue to do them for as long as you're willing to work on the marriage. If she responds then there's hope..it means she still has feelings for you - even if she doesn't trust them. In the end you will be happier with yourself and gain self respect for having tried so hard to salvage this.

[change]

I will get heat for saying this...don't read into it more than it is. I am being perfectly blunt here. How many years did she neglect taking care of herself to take care of you and get nothing in return??

 

The above question describes exactly how I've felt. I'd say two or three years. And I've full-heartedly felt that I needed to put the same into her in order to feel like I'd truly given it my real effort. Otherwise, I'm afraid that I've given up too soon. She took years to give up on me. Isn't she worth the same? Right now my answer is yes. It scares me.

 

I am not advocating neglecting yourself or letting her walk all over you, but put things into perspective...that's all...just look at it objectively. I spent years putting myself last...when I stopped doing that and put myself before him for a little while I felt a wash of guilt...but I also wasn't going back to where I was....it took time to strike the balance - and it was impossible to do until he had me back to wanting to be his wife again. How long you're willing to wait is up to you.

 

All of our stories are just that - OUR stories. You are making your own. There are no "rules" and it won't follow a specific script. EACH action has a positive or negative reaction. Even those who "tried so hard" may have made fatal mistakes during their "trying so hard". Not that they need to kick themselves or anything of that sort...but I tend to believe any story CAN be a happy one IF IF IF both parties do what they need to in order to make it so...BOTH....and how long one puts up with the other NOT doing it is a personal choice. The hard part is trusting the other one will step up eventually...cause ONE person cannot save it all by themselves IN the END.

 

This is an excellent point and one I think I keep missing.

 

The wash of guilt.. that's familiar. Before the anger set in, she expressed that A LOT. It feels to me like the pendulum has swung and eventually she will recenter in a healthier place that includes her needs as well as mine. Only time can tell.

 

I know nothing about the 180....

 

Having said that...part of making all of these changes it learning to be happy with who you are. Doing the things you're doing to make her smile and make her happy are HUGE - continue to do them for as long as you're willing to work on the marriage. If she responds then there's hope..it means she still has feelings for you - even if she doesn't trust them. In the end you will be happier with yourself and gain self respect for having tried so hard to salvage this.

 

You've made me think of something here.

 

I believe the reason that everyone close to me is so opposed to what I continue to do is:

 

(1) she has begun seeing other people;

(2) she is not capable of considering my needs at present at all (I think this is a natural part of the process of her learning to stand up for her own needs)

(3) she is pushing to begin the divorce process in order to make her decision final.

 

This distinctly puts my needs last. I feel like she's done that for me for so long though that I'm ok with this for now. Also, she doesn't trust me at all, which she would need to do in order to actively consider a future together -- and why would she? I have to regain that trust before the question of "us" can truly be answered.

 

...She responds with anger when I do things I should have done before. Then comes happiness. Sometimes, she seems to feel owed these things. It's a mix.

 

Continuing in this way is opposite to all of the divorce busting advice, in a lot of ways. I'm also unsure of whether it makes me a doormat or not.

 

But it does make me happy with myself. It's the kind of person I want to be and the kind of person I want to be with her.

 

It does not refocus my life solely on me and help me "move on."

 

You may get flack for expressing this perspective, but it is just as valid as any other. In this exact moment, it is also what continues to ring true in my heart. It may not continue to in the future. No way to know. But it's more food for thought, and that's something I can always use.

Edited May 11, 2011 by change

[soserious1]

Change, You are either one of the most creative trolls this place has ever seen or your situation is one of the saddest.

 

Going with the latter option all I can offer is this thought.You two married young and perhaps the optimism of youth prevented you both from fully acknowledging how very difficult and painful your married life would be.

 

Even if you had entered this marriage having fully resolved the internal conflicts related to your identity enough to allow you to complete the change process, your lives together would have been unbelievably rough due to social stigma.

 

Flash forward a few years.. your depression and disconnect from intimacy, coupled with the maturation process has hit your wife in the head like a hammer.. the reality of just how hard a road lies ahead of you both.

 

She has clearly stated she wants out, she's dating.. I say let her go, as gracefully and as lovingly as you can, focus on yourself, on completing your transition and healing from all the years of emotional turmoil.

Edited May 12, 2011 by soserious1

[change]

Turns out after seeing her tonight that she wants me to continue paying half the rent on our house while she lives in it -- despite the separation being over.

 

She believes I owe it to her for being a financial burden on her the last year. She had been avoiding coming home for six months (staying at work late, etc.) because she couldn't deal with me anymore, and apparently she wanted to force me out of the house, but didn't think I would leave willingly. A month-and-a-half ago when she left, she told me she let me stay in the house to make it easier for me. I have no idea what's true anymore.

 

I have a feeling the same line of reasoning (i.e., that I owe them to her) is coming with our belongings and our cat.

 

I've never been as angry and hurt by someone as she is toward me. I have no idea how to conceptualize it or respond.

 

She gave me a hug when I left and I told her she didn't have to do that. She said that she hugs her friends.

 

She also reiterated that I may be re-energized by the changes I may be making, but that she is too tired to try right now.

 

I feel empty when she's not around. But whenever I see her, I feel so worthless that it's hard to pick myself back up again.

[ShatteredReality]

Turns out after seeing her tonight that she wants me to continue paying half the rent on our house while she lives in it -- despite the separation being over.

 

She believes I owe it to her for being a financial burden on her the last year. She had been avoiding coming home for six months (staying at work late, etc.) because she couldn't deal with me anymore, and apparently she wanted to force me out of the house, but didn't think I would leave willingly. A month-and-a-half ago when she left, she told me she let me stay in the house to make it easier for me. I have no idea what's true anymore.

 

I have a feeling the same line of reasoning (i.e., that I owe them to her) is coming with our belongings and our cat.

 

I've never been as angry and hurt by someone as she is toward me. I have no idea how to conceptualize it or respond.

 

She gave me a hug when I left and I told her she didn't have to do that. She said that she hugs her friends.

 

She also reiterated that I may be re-energized by the changes I may be making, but that she is too tired to try right now.

 

I feel empty when she's not around. But whenever I see her, I feel so worthless that it's hard to pick myself back up again.

 

This is not an uncommong response...she feels like she gave and gave and gave and received nothing in return...now that she's no longer giving she's seeing what she put out there and thinking it's time she collected what's due to her. This isn't generally how things work in a marriage...but since she's given up this is how she feels. You have to choose what you want to do here...You can also say that if you're paying half the rent then you need to live there because you cannot afford rent in two places.

 

She's being honest when she tells you right now she's got nothing to give. That may suck and it sounds selfish (cause it is - self preservation and all) but it's true. She has nothing to give...kind of like a person who has been drowned...you have to do the breathing and chest compressions for them...you can work on them for a long time or a short time before you decide they're not going to be revived...depends on you - does a foot twitch? Did you think they moved? Or is there no pulse and they're simply not responding at all? Only you know how to read her...not us.

[change]

This is not an uncommong response...she feels like she gave and gave and gave and received nothing in return...now that she's no longer giving she's seeing what she put out there and thinking it's time she collected what's due to her. This isn't generally how things work in a marriage...but since she's given up this is how she feels. You have to choose what you want to do here...You can also say that if you're paying half the rent then you need to live there because you cannot afford rent in two places.

 

She's being honest when she tells you right now she's got nothing to give. That may suck and it sounds selfish (cause it is - self preservation and all) but it's true. She has nothing to give...kind of like a person who has been drowned...you have to do the breathing and chest compressions for them...you can work on them for a long time or a short time before you decide they're not going to be revived...depends on you - does a foot twitch? Did you think they moved? Or is there no pulse and they're simply not responding at all? Only you know how to read her...not us.

 

Such a horrifying analogy and yet so true.

 

When she tells me that she has no energy left to try, but then says that I may have energy left instead of telling me to stop or save my energy because it's not worth it -- I think the foot twitches. Small things that have been kept around, very few things but just a couple, tell me that there is a pulse. A weak, feeble pulse. She still lets me do things for her and accepts things from me. I hate that she accepts them as my 'generosity' or as something she is owed -- she knows that I'm doing them because I love her and I want to see her happy -- but I think she would stop me from doing it all together if there were no response.

 

Our conversation about this won't be taking place for two weeks, so I guess I have some time to weigh my options.

 

I'm also hoping with some more LC/NC, she will slowly release some of the anger. I don't know if this is realistic.

[change]

Change, You are either one of the most creative trolls this place has ever seen or your situation is one of the saddest.

 

Going with the latter option all I can offer is this thought.You two married young and perhaps the optimism of youth prevented you both from fully acknowledging how very difficult and painful your married life would be.

 

Even if you had entered this marriage having fully resolved the internal conflicts related to your identity enough to allow you to complete the change process, your lives together would have been unbelievably rough due to social stigma.

 

Flash forward a few years.. your depression and disconnect from intimacy, coupled with the maturation process has hit your wife in the head like a hammer.. the reality of just how hard a road lies ahead of you both.

 

She has clearly stated she wants out, she's dating.. I say let her go, as gracefully and as lovingly as you can, focus on yourself, on completing your transition and healing from all the years of emotional turmoil.

 

I wish this story weren't true.

 

We were so happy at one time, and I love her so much that I don't think I can truly let go yet. She tried of so long -- and now that the roles are reversed, and I have to be the rock that states that things will get better and hold my position, I believe in my heart that I must do it.

[change]

Just updating.

 

I received a job offer for a much better position than my current one over the last weekend. I accepted and am being shuttled into the new job today.

 

To date, some of the larger things I've done:

 

Began treatment for depression

Started medical transition

Gotten a better, more lucrative job with benefits

Gone through all of the junk I've been hauling around and thrown out/donated loads

 

I need to be focused and happy today at work. It's important. I should be proud of myself. I should be happy.

 

Instead, I find myself spending the morning before leaving for this first day of new work crying. The only person I truly want to share these changes with and celebrate them with isn't here. And she won't be here. I doubt I'll even hear a simple "good luck" because although she knows I got a new job, she doesn't know any of the details or when I start. (I'm working on not volunteering information and being sparse with it when she asks.)

 

I want to ask how people do this. How do people survive divorce when they had a great marriage at one time? When they are still madly in love with their spouse? When they still see dancing together at 65?

 

I'm clearly really struggling today. I can't imagine putting one foot in front of the other anymore, even though I know that's the only thing to do.

[ShatteredReality]

Just updating.

 

I received a job offer for a much better position than my current one over the last weekend. I accepted and am being shuttled into the new job today.

 

To date, some of the larger things I've done:

 

Began treatment for depression

Started medical transition

Gotten a better, more lucrative job with benefits

Gone through all of the junk I've been hauling around and thrown out/donated loads

 

I need to be focused and happy today at work. It's important. I should be proud of myself. I should be happy.

 

Instead, I find myself spending the morning before leaving for this first day of new work crying. The only person I truly want to share these changes with and celebrate them with isn't here. And she won't be here. I doubt I'll even hear a simple "good luck" because although she knows I got a new job, she doesn't know any of the details or when I start. (I'm working on not volunteering information and being sparse with it when she asks.)

 

I want to ask how people do this. How do people survive divorce when they had a great marriage at one time? When they are still madly in love with their spouse? When they still see dancing together at 65?

 

I'm clearly really struggling today. I can't imagine putting one foot in front of the other anymore, even though I know that's the only thing to do.

 

How did your first day at the new job go?

 

I know it's difficult...I have no wonderful advice to send your way except keep up the good work. Try to keep the focus on fixing YOU...try not to think so much about her and what she's doing...mostly you want to make sure you make all the changes you need to be the best person YOU can be...for YOU. And maybe she will get to share that person with you...or maybe you're doing all of this work and will share yourself with someone else in the future...don't worry so much about that right this minute and just enjoy the new you....

[change]

How did your first day at the new job go?

 

I know it's difficult...I have no wonderful advice to send your way except keep up the good work. Try to keep the focus on fixing YOU...try not to think so much about her and what she's doing...mostly you want to make sure you make all the changes you need to be the best person YOU can be...for YOU. And maybe she will get to share that person with you...or maybe you're doing all of this work and will share yourself with someone else in the future...don't worry so much about that right this minute and just enjoy the new you....

 

Thanks, SR.

 

It went really well. They like me a lot and are accepting of my gender transition, which is aces. It seems like it will be a really stable job for me.

 

And obviously I'm not doing a great job just focusing on myself, because the whole next part of this post is about my marriage.

 

I had a very difficult phone conversation with my wife last night. I had asked her for ten minutes of her time because I realized that with the hormone shots starting at the end of the week, this was the last time I would be that person that she had met all those years ago. I'm going through a mini-mourning in some ways of saying goodbye to that person. I realized that I really wanted to say goodbye to that person with her, since she so intimately knew me as that person at one point.

 

She got on the phone and said, "You've got your ten minutes right now." We haven't talked in the last two weeks other than for logistical challenges and those conversations have been limited and brief. I was... shocked to hear the amount of anger and coldness still in her voice.

 

She ultimately said that she would have wanted to take advantage of an opportunity like the conversation we were having, but that all she felt toward me right now was hurt and anger, so she would have to miss the opportunity.

 

The intense rage she feels toward me puzzles me. It only seems to grow in my absence.

 

One moment she's telling all of our friends as loudly as possible that she's literally "happier every single day." The next moment she's a bottle of pent up rage toward me and the situation and God knows what that I don't even recognize.

 

I don't understand anger and hurt from the one that did the leaving. I've never seen this from any friends that have gone through a divorce.

 

We have a financial discussion coming up this weekend. No mediator. Originally just agreed to be the two of us. I don't have time between now and them to find a mediator either. This conversation is now starting to terrify me. As does her rage and resentment and hurt. They've entered the building, but I don't know when they'll leave again and what will be left behind when they do.

[change]

I feel like I've been doing much better this week. Keeping busy. Seeing friends. Moving forward.

 

Then today has been like 50 steps back. I'm trying hard to keep it together at work. The nausea, the hole that I've felt inside since my wife left, is back. I feel almost as empty suddenly as the day she left (just over two months ago).

 

Is this normal? Strategies for moving through these times without breaking down and calling the stbxw/h to tell them how much you love and miss them?

[ShatteredReality]

It is normal. The grieving process it what it is - it has different triggers to make you feel the pain again and such. Basically you will notice days like this become less over time. Keeping a positive outlook helps. It's hard when you miss them and want nothing more than to be with them...so one thing you can do it admit days like this are normal and come with the territory. That may help. Then breathe. Take deep breaths and find a way to distract yourself if you can.

[change]

Thank you, SR. As always, your words are helpful. I truly appreciate it.

 

Saw my stbxw last night. Every time I've been to the house for things or to visit our cat (read: child) has been when she's been out of the house. I had expected her to be gone this time, too. She was home.

 

I totally wasn't ready for it, and am in a much worse place today than I had expected.

 

On the up side, she was friendly and interested in what's been happening in my life lately. (She also seems willing to give up main custody of our cat to me, which was surprising.) She has been all anger and rage for weeks, and I've backed WAY OFF. No contact for a couple weeks. I was shocked that she seemed curious what I'd been up to, but I guess that's what all the advice/books say, right?

 

We've postponed having a financial discussion for an indefinite period of time because neither of us are ready for it. Neither of us have made moves to have the other sign divorce papers or to serve the other withe papers.

 

I know she's casually seeing other people and trying to get the experience that she feels a single woman in her twenties should have. Nothing serious yet.

 

(I know the advice I will receive here is that if she's sleeping around I need to walk away because she's, in another poster's words, "dirty." But my marriage is more important to me than that, and we have actions on both sides to forgive. If she was willing to work on things down the road, I would be willing to let go of this period in our lives.)

 

I'm wondering if I'm crazy to be thinking that I still have a shot here. Actually doing a 180 seems to be bringing her slowly in closer -- as a friend or as a wife, God only knows. I think it's impossible to say right now. I believe others on this board have been in this exact position before, with a variety of outcomes, and I'm looking for advice.

[change]

Wow. Reading through my threads on here, I've come such a long way since I first signed on to LS.

 

Thank you to DOT, Yas, Carhill, WGW, robf, SR, and the multitude of others that have given their words of wisdom, reality checks, and other assistance during this time.

 

I wanted to post a brief update, since it seems like people tend to only post in the bad times -- and not in the good.

 

My wife and I are divorcing. All of the belongings acquired during seven years of marriage will be split up in the next couple weeks, we will both permanently vacate our house, and we will both be moving into separate apartments more than 30 miles distant from one another.

 

Wow.

 

I may be saddened by the loss of a future that I held and still hold dear. I may be distressed by the potential loss of a best friend and life partner in crime. I may be frightened of what the future will hold and the idea of being alone.

 

However, I've realized that it's truly all of the best. I'm coming out of my shell in ways that I haven't for years. I'm doing spoken word performances again and getting out there in the creative community in the city. I'm transitioning. I'm working out. I'm converting to Judaism, something I've wanted to do for years. I'm even casually dating a woman who, to my intense surprise and some fear, I really like.

 

I'm learning to have fun again. Simple fun.

 

God, what a relief.

 

I'm sure there will be some intensely tough times ahead and bumps in the road, but I know I can handle them and bounce back.

 

Just as others have said, you will make it through this. I am making it through, day by day. One step at a time. One foot in front of the other, sometimes blindly stumbling, sometimes sauntering joyfully.

[marqueemoon4]

awesome to hear! glad you're doing good and moving forward. time away always gives perspective.

[ShatteredReality]

It's nice that you can see the difference between the two futures you had before you. The one you wanted and now the one you're learning to want. Not that the other is less special, but the healing has begun Keep moving forward Change, it's so very good to hear you are finding your happy moments again!!

[worldgonewrong]

change - I'm really glad to hear the clarity & confidence coming thru in your writing. Maybe you're more 'yourself' now than even before!

[Memphis Raines]

I've tried to read your backstory, so I guess the only question I have is, exactly how did you screw up?

[Yasuandio]

Change, dude, I am, like, totally astonished by the lack of whinning and fear in your text. Bravo man, dude! You are really projecting!

 

You are writing it, and doing it. Therefore, additionally, make darn sure it comes across in your tone of voice and body language. Big time straight and confident posture, and always a smile. Practice makes perfect. Stay frosty, my man. Later. Yas

[PegNosePete]

Welcome to the happily divorced men's club dude

[dreamingoftigers]

Glad to hear that you are sounding more confident.

 

Best of luck to you.