Can we talk about A sex????

[Silly_Girl]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect everyones equally. It's just my opinion and experience that the general rule of an A is that there can't be love, I think the OW can obviously be in love with their MM but it's unrequited if a MM is going back to his wife every night and lying and has no intention of leaving, that's not love. I think MM can convince themselves they are 'in love' with the OW but unless they make the relationship real, then they are not.

It's an imitation love. A cheap knock off.

 

If an MM doesn't leave, he never loved the OW? Nah, don't buy it. Read around the forums, read Infidelity where the WSs are posting.

 

There are MMs who love their OW but who, for whatever reason, decided not to leave. And MMs who decide to leave. And those who were foolin' around.

 

Men in particular have a different relationship checklist. The needs they have are much more basic and tangible, whereas women tend to be more spiritual.

 

My bf spooked and didn't leave when he said he would. I was devastated, truly. But I didn't for one second think he didn't love me. I knew he did.

 

I think the picture is far wider than you portray.

[Rooke]

If an MM doesn't leave, he never loved the OW? Nah, don't buy it. Read around the forums, read Infidelity where the WSs are posting.

 

There are MMs who love their OW but who, for whatever reason, decided not to leave. And MMs who decide to leave. And those who were foolin' around.

 

Men in particular have a different relationship checklist. The needs they have are much more basic and tangible, whereas women tend to be more spiritual.

 

My bf spooked and didn't leave when he said he would. I was devastated, truly. But I didn't for one second think he didn't love me. I knew he did.

 

I think the picture is far wider than you portray.

 

If a MM leaves for the OW and then makes the relationship real, then I believe that is love, regardless of how the relationship will play out.

 

I believe that a MM who does not leave, for whatever circumstances, may have strong feelings for the OW but that doesn't amount to love, if you are whole heartedly, consumed and overwhelmed by love then you want to be with that person as much as possible, you want to build a life with them, you want to base your relationship on trust. If an MM is satisfied seeing the OW only if and when he can, then he can't possibly be in love with her, he doesn't know what he wants, so he stays in the M because that's his comfort zone and keeps the OW on reserve should the M fail. I understand that everyone is only human and we all make mistakes, so if MM has a one night stand but then discontinues seeing that woman because he knows he will never leave, then no one got hurt. If a MM continues the A, for months or even years at a time, he knows someone is going to get hurt, or in the worst case, both women are going to get hurt, and whilst the subject of leaving may never have been discussed, then the OW is no doubt hoping that if she simply hangs on then the situation will change, and no doubt the MM is aware he is giving out false hope. You can't love someone if you are don't mind being responsible for hurting them, and in an A, someone is going to get hurt.

I understand there may be mitigating circumstances as to why a MM can't leave, but there's only so long an OW should be prepared to wait, and if she's waits indefinitely and he never takes the steps to leave, then he doesn't love her.

[Silly_Girl]

If a MM leaves for the OW and then makes the relationship real, then I believe that is love, regardless of how the relationship will play out.

 

I believe that a MM who does not leave, for whatever circumstances, may have strong feelings for the OW but that doesn't amount to love, if you are whole heartedly, consumed and overwhelmed by love then you want to be with that person as much as possible, you want to build a life with them, you want to base your relationship on trust. If an MM is satisfied seeing the OW only if and when he can, then he can't possibly be in love with her, he doesn't know what he wants, so he stays in the M because that's his comfort zone and keeps the OW on reserve should the M fail. I understand that everyone is only human and we all make mistakes, so if MM has a one night stand but then discontinues seeing that woman because he knows he will never leave, then no one got hurt. If a MM continues the A, for months or even years at a time, he knows someone is going to get hurt, or in the worst case, both women are going to get hurt, and whilst the subject of leaving may never have been discussed, then the OW is no doubt hoping that if she simply hangs on then the situation will change, and no doubt the MM is aware he is giving out false hope. You can't love someone if you are don't mind being responsible for hurting them, and in an A, someone is going to get hurt.

I understand there may be mitigating circumstances as to why a MM can't leave, but there's only so long an OW should be prepared to wait, and if she's waits indefinitely and he never takes the steps to leave, then he doesn't love her.

 

I understand your sentiments, definitely. And agree with some. But I do think it's naive and idealistic. Love does not conquer all like in the movies.

[Rooke]

I understand your sentiments, definitely. And agree with some. But I do think it's naive and idealistic. Love does not conquer all like in the movies.

 

I certainly don't think that at all. I realise love and relationships take work on a daily basis and it's not something you can just leave to it's own devices.

I just think that many OW eventually get in to the mindset where they become so used to the situation and are so ready to believe that the MM does love them that they are happy to accept tiny fractions of that man and then the eventual strong possibility that they are going to get hurt.

There are much better and purer forms of love out there and if a woman is going to hold out for anything, she should hold out for the best.

[Silly_Girl]

I certainly don't think that at all. I realise love and relationships take work on a daily basis and it's not something you can just leave to it's own devices.

I just think that many OW eventually get in to the mindset where they become so used to the situation and are so ready to believe that the MM does love them that they are happy to accept tiny fractions of that man and then the eventual strong possibility that they are going to get hurt.

There are much better and purer forms of love out there and if a woman is going to hold out for anything, she should hold out for the best.

 

But then you're not dealing with the real issues. Saying 'he does not love you.... RUN!!!' is not helpful. She (perhaps) KNOWS he loves her and so the OW has no food for thought, your argument is immediately rejected. And rightfully so, in my view.

 

For me, if I felt a long-time OW was neglecting or denigrating herself as a result of the affair it would be more along the lines of:

 

"I realise he loves you, and you love him, but are you happy? Is this fulfilling? If you tick-boxed your ideal relationship, would this match up? [is love enough?]"

 

"Does the circumstances of the relationship upset you? Do you feel guilt/worry/anxiety? More so than you would with an available guy?"

 

"Do you feel that there is no one out there you are compatible with who could be exclusive to you and give you more of their time, attention... More of THEMSELF?"

 

"Do the highs outweight the lows? Consistently? And are the lows so low as to be significant?"

[Rooke]

But then you're not dealing with the real issues. Saying 'he does not love you.... RUN!!!' is not helpful. She (perhaps) KNOWS he loves her and so the OW has no food for thought, your argument is immediately rejected. And rightfully so, in my view.

 

For me, if I felt a long-time OW was neglecting or denigrating herself as a result of the affair it would be more along the lines of:

 

"I realise he loves you, and you love him, but are you happy? Is this fulfilling? If you tick-boxed your ideal relationship, would this match up? [is love enough?]"

 

"Does the circumstances of the relationship upset you? Do you feel guilt/worry/anxiety? More so than you would with an available guy?"

 

"Do you feel that there is no one out there you are compatible with who could be exclusive to you and give you more of their time, attention... More of THEMSELF?"

 

"Do the highs outweight the lows? Consistently? And are the lows so low as to be significant?"

 

If the OW is happy to be the OW then that's perfectly okay.

However I personally don't believe that any OW could be happy with only pieces of a relationship that are entirely on someone else's terms.

I'm not suggesting "he doesn't love you so run" I didn't do that despite everyone telling me I should, I understand it's not that simple, however when I, and possibly most OW realise how quickly MM will drop you if the BS finds out or is close to finding out then that's a cogent reason that he doesn't love the OW.

If the A is causing the OW to feel and experience the things you listed then that doesn't add up to love either, love should make a person feel secure, safe and content.

[Silly_Girl]

If the OW is happy to be the OW then that's perfectly okay.

However I personally don't believe that any OW could be happy with only pieces of a relationship that are entirely on someone else's terms.

I'm not suggesting "he doesn't love you so run" I didn't do that despite everyone telling me I should, I understand it's not that simple, however when I, and possibly most OW realise how quickly MM will drop you if the BS finds out or is close to finding out then that's a cogent reason that he doesn't love the OW.

If the A is causing the OW to feel and experience the things you listed then that doesn't add up to love either, love should make a person feel secure, safe and content.

 

You DID say that MM not loving OW should be reason for her to get out.

 

I still believe you're talking ideals and not considering the mindset and feelings of the people you're speaking of. Maybe the fault lies with me because I don't have the quality of being able to see things in black and white, I think I would find it useful

[Rooke]

You DID say that MM not loving OW should be reason for her to get out.

 

I still believe you're talking ideals and not considering the mindset and feelings of the people you're speaking of. Maybe the fault lies with me because I don't have the quality of being able to see things in black and white, I think I would find it useful

 

 

I do absolutely think that that is justification for her to leave, but also I think if the OW can say hand on heart that she is happy in that situation then thats okay, but it still does not equal love.

Of course no one on the outside can really know what goes on between two peopl and I appreciate that fully.

If there's anyone who should be saying it is possible for MM to love the OW then it should be me, my xMM swore on his unborn baby's life that he was no longer in love with the BS and only in love with me.

However they are only words, they don't have to mean anything and it turns out that they didn't.

If ever another man ever tells me he's attached I will be making a very swift exit.

[Silly_Girl]

I do absolutely think that that is justification for her to leave, but also I think if the OW can say hand on heart that she is happy in that situation then thats okay, but it still does not equal love.

Of course no one on the outside can really know what goes on between two peopl and I appreciate that fully.

If there's anyone who should be saying it is possible for MM to love the OW then it should be me, my xMM swore on his unborn baby's life that he was no longer in love with the BS and only in love with me.

However they are only words, they don't have to mean anything and it turns out that they didn't.

If ever another man ever tells me he's attached I will be making a very swift exit.

 

It's down to the individual to decide if THEY are being treated with love. And if they are, whether it's enough for them.

[Rooke]

It's down to the individual to decide if THEY are being treated with love. And if they are, whether it's enough for them.

 

I think the majority are not otherwise they wouldn't be here.

I didn't come here until after D Day

[xxoo]

In my case, the issue of just NOT being sexually compatible with my H is definitely the core problem. And it's not like we were really sexually compatible when we met... but we were in our early 20s, and we went out and partied a lot, and I think we both thought sex was good if we both "got off".

 

Fast forward ten years and our sex still meets that criteria for "good", in that we both orgasm with ease... but it is not intimate. And even the joy of an orgasm isn't enough to make me want more..

 

From that description, it sounds like you had sexual compatibility, but didn't do the work (outside the bedroom) to build/maintain intimacy.

 

I have to admit....I REALLY don't get the reasoning that people married too young and the sexual attraction was inadequate (not just your post--it was mentioned a few times on this thread, marrying the wrong person, too young, and the sex was never great). I get marrying the wrong person too young--but isn't that usually BECAUSE of the sexual attraction? Why else do people get married too young, other than they can't keep their hands off each other?

 

"Do the highs outweight the lows? Consistently? And are the lows so low as to be significant?"

 

This question always bothers me. Of course, all relationships have downsides--but those downsides should be heavily outweighed by the positives. If you have to weigh them out, that's not good.

[Silly_Girl]

I think the majority are not otherwise they wouldn't be here.

I didn't come here until after D Day

 

But D-day was YOUR boundary. You didn't leave him prior? If you were getting such a raw deal, as you maintain OWs are, why did you hang on?

[donnamaybe]

my xMM swore on his unborn baby's life that he was no longer in love with the BS and only in love with me.

However they are only words, they don't have to mean anything and it turns out that they didn't.

So true. How many times do we read on this forum that people should watch the action or perhaps inaction of the MM/MW to determine their veracity. Fortunately for you, you were able to determine what was best - for YOU - and take some action of your own.

[Rooke]

But D-day was YOUR boundary. You didn't leave him prior? If you were getting such a raw deal, as you maintain OWs are, why did you hang on?

 

As another poster said earlier in this thread, mainly because of the sex and because I believed the situation would change.

D-day was about realising the situation wouldn't change and I think when all OW have this realisation then this should be all OW's boundary, because if MM isn't prepared to change the situation to a mutual terms basis then that's demonstrable that they are not as in love with you as they are professing to be.

[Rooke]

So true. How many times do we read on this forum that people should watch the action or perhaps inaction of the MM/MW to determine their veracity. Fortunately for you, you were able to determine what was best - for YOU - and take some action of your own.

 

 

I must admit I really can't take alot of credit for that. I have been back and forth about whether I did the right thing and it has been him who has stuck to NC so vehemently.

However after a lot of soul searching and being more tuned in to my emotions, I realise that my emotions are telling me that that situation was not right and I suppose regardless of who initiated NC then I am grateful to have left that hideous part of my life behind.

I have made a lot of progress but still have a lot left to make.

But as I've said before, the next time a man tells me he is attached, he won't see me for dust.

I think, for me, it was about realising the obvious, that I had the power to decide what I want and how I deserve to be treated, and that I didn't want to be in a relationship for the sake of it and on any terms.

But if he ever goes get in touch, he certainly will never get a response.

[donnamaybe]

I must admit I really can't take alot of credit for that. I have been back and forth about whether I did the right thing and it has been him who has stuck to NC so vehemently.

However after a lot of soul searching and being more tuned in to my emotions, I realise that my emotions are telling me that that situation was not right and I suppose regardless of who initiated NC then I am grateful to have left that hideous part of my life behind.

I have made a lot of progress but still have a lot left to make.

But as I've said before, the next time a man tells me he is attached, he won't see me for dust.

I think, for me, it was about realising the obvious, that I had the power to decide what I want and how I deserve to be treated, and that I didn't want to be in a relationship for the sake of it and on any terms.

But if he ever goes get in touch, he certainly will never get a response.

The bolded are what I would consider you making choices for your life, regardless what the catalyst was. I'm sure it's still difficult as it sounds like it hasn't been long, but you'll be okay. Give it time. Be with friends. Keep busy, and be good to yourself.

[Silly_Girl]

As another poster said earlier in this thread, mainly because of the sex and because I believed the situation would change.

D-day was about realising the situation wouldn't change and I think when all OW have this realisation then this should be all OW's boundary, because if MM isn't prepared to change the situation to a mutual terms basis then that's demonstrable that they are not as in love with you as they are professing to be.

 

Did you instigate D-day?

[Rooke]

Did you instigate D-day?

 

Yes and no. It's complicated but basically I ended it because I wasn't happy with the amount of time he was spending with me, the conversation ended and I called him back because he'd lent me some money to pay a bill and I asked for his bank details to return it but he said it didn't matter. I draw a complete blank as to how the subject came up, but he came out with that he'd been lying, they were having a baby etc and how bad he felt for asking me to move to be closer to him. I didn't sleep that night and the next day he came and basically fed me loads of lies and I backed down because I was exhausted and not thinking straight, then after some sleep and came to my senses and pressured him into telling her and then he said I'd left him with nothing, and blamed me, so I guess it was a bit back and forth and upside down.

I think really, he instigated it by telling me what he did because there was no need to come clean and let everyone get hurt, I would've walked away from hi

, so until the end of my days I'll never understand what that's about.

So I'm not really sure...

[Cabin]

There's been a lot of discussion about whether the MM really loves the OW, and that it's only love IF he leaves his wife/family for her.

 

I don't agree that anything can be that simple. Each A situation is as unique as the people in it, just as every marriage has its own norms and nuances because of the unique identity of the spouses.

 

I try to avoid subscribing to any hard and fast and definite rules about love, affairs, marriage, or anything really.... life's just a different set of variables for everybody.

 

But I will say that my A seems more "balanced", if you will, than a situation where the OW is single. Because I am an OW but also married, my AP and I both have a spouse and both have similar situations at play. I do not think I could ever be an OW if I was single, because I can see how that triangle has the most potential to create harm for the OW.

 

Cabin

[NoIDidn't]

Rooke

 

Thank you for posting your opinion of what love looks like from the MM. Its a shame that those that don't share your view would rather try to prove you wrong according to them than just accept that that's your view.

 

I also don't agree that the MM only shows love if he leaves, but I can see why one might feel that way. And you aren't alone in that opinion.

[Rooke]

There's a song by a Welsh band called the Stereophonics, they're probably not that well known in the US but they're really famous here, it's called Same Size Feet, it was from their first album which was the theme of various things they witnessed in their small Welsh town, and it goes like this.

 

 

A week's too long not to ring,

Re-colours her hair and waits for him,

No cat against dog, just head over heels,

Sex twice a date, best time in years,

Oh no, why hasn't he phoned,

She has to wait until he's on his own,

Lying and denying till no-body knows,

I'll tell her this week is what he tells her to keep her on loan,

He'll buy her one day,

 

Sex drives, oral highs, cheated wives and spies

Cream cakes, coffee dates, floral gifts, goodbye.

Passed away, for the day, had a change of kind

Sex change, too mundane for the average mind

Ha no, she just can't see,

Where he is or where he's been

Looked prim and straight like she's always been,

All that she saved for, went missing again

She could be, She could be,She could be wrong,

She could be, She could be,She could be wrong

She could be, She could be,She could be wrong

It looks like, it looks like, the words gotten round

 

They found a body in the lake,

Maybe it wasn't really his name,

Same colour, same weight, same size feet,

It's the not knowing that kills you,

Oh no the clock's stopped slow, every time your on your own,

You hide from the spies so nobody knows,

Scratch through the pages of the lazy days news for a clue,

I'm still looking for you

 

 

So he died and she didn't know because he just vanished on her and she's scouring the newspapers in the hope of some news of him.

This just goes to show how small a part of a MM's life the OW is, if anything was to happen to him, and he just vanished, you'd just think it was over and he was being a coward unless you saw it in the news. If the relationship was real, you'd be by his side, obviously this is not a very likely outcome, however it just goes to show when you are such a small part of someones life, they can't love you.

[waytogo]

For quite a while, sex with xMM was great. Sex is something that IS going to run some course, and never be new again.

 

It's what else you have that makes or breaks getting into the years with another when sex matters little or not at all. Hey, I hate the thought to, but it is a reality (thankfully, not mine yet).

 

Maybe xMM really was as shut off in that department as he said. I got to the point I understood his BW's point of view if it was true. He had a porno size and he never wanted to stop! Sounds great on some levels I know. There is a point of wearing out what once was a good thing. Then you look at what is left - not near enough.

[Holding-On]

Very true. It's funny how these men who are nothing to their wives are suddenly the best men ever for the OW. I think that some women are just simply incapable of finding sexual excitment in a normal relationship and feel the need to have drama or affair aspect to it. The whole cheating and lying thing excites them.

 

Bolding and italics mine.

You got a bit of flack for this Woggle but I don't know that it was justified.

 

My anecdotal evidence from the polyamorous community is that some persons (more women than men that I have heard of) who are interested in a sexual relationship with a MM (or MW) become disinterestedwhen it is revealed that the love interest actually is in an open marriage and thus available.

 

For some persons sex is a taboo act, or - it would seem - much more exciting when it is a taboo act in any case.

[thissecretgirl]

Bolding and italics mine.

You got a bit of flack for this Woggle but I don't know that it was justified.

 

My anecdotal evidence from the polyamorous community is that some persons (more women than men that I have heard of) who are interested in a sexual relationship with a MM (or MW) become disinterestedwhen it is revealed that the love interest actually is in an open marriage and thus available.

 

For some persons sex is a taboo act, or - it would seem - much more exciting when it is a taboo act in any case.

 

Polyamory is a completely different concept though. I know a little about it too.

[Holding-On]

Polyamory is a completely different concept though. I know a little about it too.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that these would be love interests didn't know that it was an open marriage. They wanted an affair. They were NOT interested when they discovered it could all be had ethically.

It has nothing to do with polyamory. Polyamory just brings this particular preference to light.