International Trip Just "As Friends"??

[UmbrellaBoy]

I posted this on another forum but thought it might be more appropriate here:

 

X is in love with Y. They met online a year ago through a shared-hobby forum and, as they started to become quick friends through their shared interests and values and hours-long online conversations, X fell for Y.

 

Y wasn't as sure, but they nevertheless talked constantly and Y invited X to visit Y for a week in Canada even after only three months of talking (X is from the US). "As friends." But on the trip they were affectionate, up to the point of Y initiating shirtless cuddling with X.

 

But Y says after the trip that Y is not ready for a romantic relationship for a variety of reasons including the distance and the fact that it's only been three months and Y is going through a move and some other transitions in Y's life. So Y breaks X's heart.

 

X is really hurt, but handles it well on the outside and they remain friends, in fact in emboldens X to "not give up" and "fight for" Y, to "win" Y. Y doesn't seem opposed to this, and at least enjoys the attention and flattery, and they develop an interesting little dynamic clearly energized by X's (at least) romantic feelings.

 

A few months later, Y starts dating Z, an old friend. It's not a great relationship. Things are "difficult," Y considers Z a sort of "compromise" relationship between various desires and influences in Y's life at this point, Y considers Z "weak" and "clingy" and, well, rather desperate. But loves Z at least as a friend.

 

Y told X from the start that X was not "out of the running," that Y was just exploring things with Z, basically implying that Z had "first dibs" because Z knew Y longer and had been "waiting" longer.

 

X isn't phased and, though now more discreet, continues implicit declarations of affection to the point of sending elaborate gifts about once a month. Y does not tell X to stop, in fact seems to very much enjoy it all, but does say that Y is keeping the gifts secret from Z for fear of "awkwardness."

 

While X was once quite intimidated by Y, Y went through a depression this winter where X became sort of a rock to Y and, in doing so, X gained something of the "upper hand" in the friendship at least.

 

So, that's where we leave off. Here's the "new" situation:

 

Y is still with Z, but has now invited X to make a second trip to Canada (12 hours of travel and hundreds of dollars for X) to come stay with Y for a 4-day weekend, though all officially just "as friends" of course. Y has been pushing this for some time, is completely the initiator of it, and is very "excited" to see X again.

 

What is X to think? Already X feels like there is sort of an "emotional affair" with Y. But what's the deal with this trip?

 

Could anyone already in a relationship invite someone they know loves them on an international trip...and really be so naive as to think it can all be taken just "as friends"? Surely Y understand there are implications? What do you think is going on here? What should X expect? How should X act on the trip?

[Cee]

WTH is X doing by devoting effort on Y?

 

X needs to go NC and never bother with this silliness ever again. Case closed.

 

I'm not normally this blunt in posts, but it's clear as day. X is wasting (his?) time.

[WTRanger]

E=MC2? No, wait, F=MA?

 

Way to muddy up the story with the X,Y,Z names. We know X is you, so just write it that way. It'll be far less confusing and you'll get more responses.

 

But to your point, X (you) shouldn't waste your time. Unless the trip is much more serious than "just friends" you shouldn't go. You are just a back-up plan and this girl (Y?) sounds like she's got a waiting list to get with her.

 

Cancel the trip.

[UmbrellaBoy]

Well, the trip did happen. Went expecting nothing, had a great time just as friends with some friends...except there were some weird things.

 

Like, for example, Y had the love-note from Z asking to start dating on Y's fridge...but then also had a love-note from me (X) right next to it. They've both apparently been up since October for both of us to see like that when we visit! What an odd message is being sent there!

 

Then, there was only one bed, so we shared it just "as friends." Then, Y took me to several "special" places shared with Z and basically recreated the romantic situations spent there with Z...except with me.

 

And finally, then, the last morning in bed...Y did initiate cuddling for like three hours, even though I made NO move or anything like that.

 

Seriously, how do I proceed???

 

I will add that the relationship stuff is not all that's going on in Y's life. Y is not (just) fickle, but is struggling with some deep religious questions too. Answering one way would incline Y to choose me, answering the other would incline Y to choose Z, so I don't know how that affects things.

[WTRanger]

You are a girlfriend with a penis, a dick in a glass case if you will. Yeah, that's harsh but it's the truth. The only way you should proceed is in the opposite direction as fast as you can. This will go no where except continue to spiral out of your control and send you into the pits of Hell.

 

Even if she has even the slightest romantic feeling for you, she's not going to act on it. If that were the case, you blew it that morning she cuddled with you. Never ever for the rest of your long life on this planet sit idle if a girl is cuddling you. I don't care of she's Mother Theresa, you make a damn move. I think I heard your balls screaming all the way over here.

 

BS you weren't expecting anything during the trip. If that were the case, you would be on here with all these questions. You'd have had fun, and left it at that. No questions, no confusion, no X's and Y's. Nothing. You expected something to happen, we all would. So stop trying to convince us otherwise and just be honest.

[Trimmer]

Y wasn't as sure, but they nevertheless talked constantly and Y invited X to visit Y for a week in Canada even after only three months of talking (X is from the US). "As friends." But on the trip they were affectionate, up to the point of Y initiating shirtless cuddling with X.

Yeah! Go X! Go X! Uh, but that's a little more than "as friends" at that point, not that I'm complaining... Oh, but please reassure me that her shirt came off, and not just yours...

 

But Y says after the trip that Y is not ready for a romantic relationship for a variety of reasons including the distance and the fact that it's only been three months and Y is going through a move and some other transitions in Y's life. So Y breaks X's heart.

No she didn't (Y is a "she", right? Just trying to keep all the secret codes straight...) What she did was to install into your heart a fishhook with a thousand-mile fishing line that she can now give a quick tug on when she needs something.

 

Y told X from the start that X was not "out of the running," that Y was just exploring things with Z, basically implying that Z had "first dibs" because Z knew Y longer and had been "waiting" longer.

Fishhook!

 

X isn't phased and, though now more discreet, continues implicit declarations of affection to the point of sending elaborate gifts about once a month. Y does not tell X to stop, in fact seems to very much enjoy it all, but does say that Y is keeping the gifts secret from Z for fear of "awkwardness."

And thus, you validated her total control of the situation, and your submission to it.

 

Y is still with Z, but has now invited X to make a second trip to Canada (12 hours of travel and hundreds of dollars for X) to come stay with Y for a 4-day weekend, though all officially just "as friends" of course. Y has been pushing this for some time, is completely the initiator of it, and is very "excited" to see X again.

 

What is X to think? Already X feels like there is sort of an "emotional affair" with Y. But what's the deal with this trip?

 

Could anyone already in a relationship invite someone they know loves them on an international trip...and really be so naive as to think it can all be taken just "as friends"? Surely Y understand there are implications? What do you think is going on here? What should X expect?

Well, you should damn well expect some more topless cuddling! At least!

 

Well, the trip did happen. Went expecting nothing,

Uh..... You sure? Let's say "hoping", at least, right? Hoping for something, but telling yourself you were "expecting" nothing, to keep that pain where the fishhook bites into your cardiac tissue from flaring up too much.

 

Like, for example, Y had the love-note from Z asking to start dating on Y's fridge...but then also had a love-note from me (X) right next to it. They've both apparently been up since October for both of us to see like that when we visit! What an odd message is being sent there!

How do you know they are both there when Z visits? If she's keeping the gifts a secret from Z, there's no way she'd put up your "love note" for Z to see. That would make no sense. So I think there's a good chance that they aren't both up there for Z, but that she put them both out for you. That's kinda interesting, isn't it? Keep that fishhook from falling out...

 

Then, there was only one bed, so we shared it just "as friends." Then, Y took me to several "special" places shared with Z and basically recreated the romantic situations spent there with Z...except with me.

Did she actually tell you that? Wow, that gets a little weird, doesn't it? Kinda like she's enjoying the sorta-cheating aspect of it, but she's pre-defined it all "as friends" so she can convince herself (and you can too) that this isn't some kind of cheating going on?

 

And finally, then, the last morning in bed...Y did initiate cuddling for like three hours, even though I made NO move or anything like that.

OK, now you have to clarify, because WTRanger up above here is assuming that you didn't "make a move". Pleeeeeease tell me that you didn't just lie there for 3 hours and do nothing??? I hope that when you say you made no move or anything you mean that you didn't make a move to initiate things, but please, pretty please, tell me that you at least participated?

 

It's kinda funny, because while at once, I think she's got you wrapped around her little finger, and I'm a little appalled that she's stringing you along while dating "Z", and you should really think about taking back your balls.... at the same time, I really hope you at least got her top off again... Please clarify. (Not because of any prurient interest on the part of your audience, but we really need to understand your motivations and state of mind here...)

 

I will add that the relationship stuff is not all that's going on in Y's life. Y is not (just) fickle, but is struggling with some deep religious questions too. Answering one way would incline Y to choose me, answering the other would incline Y to choose Z, so I don't know how that affects things.

Ah, I've figured it out.... Z is a female! And if Y is struggling with this as a religious question, she has to decide whether she can be with a woman, or whether she's got to stick with the dudes... Is that it?

[UmbrellaBoy]

Close, Trimmer, so close!

 

We're all men, actually, but Y is struggling with the question of whether or not to go celibate (hence why I would not make any move except to take my own shirt off and reciprocate cuddling). I am exploring that possibility as well, in fact that's how we met online (hence, I think, why I'm a good "option" for companionship if that's the decision Y reaches). Z, however, never would consider it and frankly is rather hostile to Y's religious inclinations, especially in that regard.

 

So...all the misogyny on here about women being man-eating ball-busters who chew men up and spit them out for their own sick satisfaction is really funny, I suppose, but totally doesn't apply to my situation.

Edited May 27, 2011 by UmbrellaBoy

[WTRanger]

Hey if you want to keep someone in your life who sees you as an option rather than a priority, then that's your own ticket to Hell. We're not even talking sexual, we're talking even as a base relationship that isn't totally lopsided.

 

Me personally, I respect my self better than that. I never choose to keep someone in my life who only sees me as an option if I see them as a priority.

 

You could have at least kissed her, but your epic fail dumped you in the safe zone. Nice, safe, mom-friendly zone. Meanwhile, when Z or Y, I forget who is who with letters, puts the move on this girl and she'll ride him till the cows come home. Just wait, you'll get the call that's supposed to go to her girlfriend (well, I guess that's you now) about how great her first time was.

 

She is using you, maybe not on purpose but she is. You're just too blinded by your own feelings.

[UmbrellaBoy]

Dude, did you even read the last comment? There is no "she"...this is an all-male triangle.

[WTRanger]

Okay, then change the she to a he. My advice still stands about not being an option to someone you see as a priority.

 

Oh, and you still failed to make a move. That doesn't change either.

[RRM]

Close, Trimmer, so close!

 

We're all men, actually, but Y is struggling with the question of whether or not to go celibate (hence why I would not make any move except to take my own shirt off and reciprocate cuddling). I am exploring that possibility as well, in fact that's how we met online (hence, I think, why I'm a good "option" for companionship if that's the decision Y reaches). Z, however, never would consider it and frankly is rather hostile to Y's religious inclinations, especially in that regard.

 

As a gay guy, I have to say I haven't heard of this type of situation before.

 

I honestly think you should leave Y alone. He sounds like a manipulator. Leaving those notes up was a very strange (and possibly cruel) thing to do.

 

As far as the whole celibacy question goes, I would steer clear of most relationships until you get things sorted out in terms of whether or not you want to go celibate. It will make your relationships go smoother when people aren't wondering if you are going to be celibate or not.

[UmbrellaBoy]

I'd agree with that in most cases. It's just that in this case...there is this somewhat mutual discernment on the question happening. I wouldn't lead someone along who wasn't celibate if I were, nor someone who was if I weren't. But in this case we're both considering it, and each other's answer to the question might, in some sense, depend eventually on whether the other is also willing to go along with it.

 

I don't like the "stringing along" aspect either obviously, but there is at least the possibility in our case that the indecision is not so much just an indecision over me and Z, but maybe just the indecision over the question of lifestyle.

 

In such a situation, wouldn't it be rather impatient of me to say, "Decide right now on this deeply personal spiritual question, or you're never going to have me as a friend or committed companion!" Trying to force his hand or expect immediate decision on the one question when it is so intimately intertwined with the other...strikes me as a bit hasty.

 

The situation is delicate, I think.

[RRM]

Umbrella Boy, can you explain why you are thinking of being celibate?

 

It would help me understand the situation better.

 

From what information you've given thus far, you should be making the celibacy decision independent of what he chooses to do.

 

Would it be great if you had a celibate friend and someone who understood you? Yes.

 

Does this guy who has done some manipulative things seem like the right person to be friends with, especially if the two of you have some sort of attraction? I don't know.

 

I do wish you luck and I'll be checking in on this thread to see what happens.

[UmbrellaBoy]

Well, I guess I realized everyone I talked to was right. I started "no contact" today. It's hard, especially given how...sweet and sad his reply was. But I'm gonna try to see this through.

[UmbrellaBoy]

Well, we were no contact for two weeks. Then he emailed me, said all this nice stuff about how important I was to him, how much he missed me, how much this hurt. So I emailed him back and then we started talking online. The thing was...nothing was really resolved. He's not ready to leave his BF and neither of us is really sure how to proceed in our situation. How do you handle that? How do you handle someone contacting you after going no contact...only to have nothing actually solved? He says he understands why I may need space, but still wants my love and attention basically. I just don't know what to do now. I've used my "no contact" card once now, he contacted me, and...nothing changed. Now I'm just disoriented, have lost any "hand" the no-contact gave me, have heard him say some VERY sweet things about me, and still am left with nothing.

[WTRanger]

Well, we were no contact for two weeks. Then he emailed me, said all this nice stuff about how important I was to him, how much he missed me, how much this hurt. So I emailed him back and then we started talking online. The thing was...nothing was really resolved. He's not ready to leave his BF and neither of us is really sure how to proceed in our situation. How do you handle that? How do you handle someone contacting you after going no contact...only to have nothing actually solved? He says he understands why I may need space, but still wants my love and attention basically. I just don't know what to do now. I've used my "no contact" card once now, he contacted me, and...nothing changed. Now I'm just disoriented, have lost any "hand" the no-contact gave me, have heard him say some VERY sweet things about me, and still am left with nothing.

 

Anyone can say nice things. Doing those things however, is a big difference.

 

It's simple. Get back on the NC train. If he contacts you, don't reply. You aren't being an ass if you don't reply. You are simply setting boundaries and not letting anyone cross them.

[Trimmer]

Haven't checked in for a while...

 

Well, we were no contact for two weeks. Then he emailed me, said all this nice stuff about how important I was to him, how much he missed me, how much this hurt. So I emailed him back and then we started talking online. The thing was...nothing was really resolved.... He says he understands why I may need space, but still wants my love and attention basically. I just don't know what to do now.

Decide what you want, what's important to you in a relationship, and what compromises you will make in order to get it.

 

Try to decide these things separate from the context of "him." It sounds like he's this... thing ... out there, and you're trying to decide what you will do to be with him - celibacy (!??!?), etc. Try looking at it from the perspective that you decide what you want - separately from him - and then see if he can fit that, and whether you have to compromise too much to get there.

 

I've used my "no contact" card once now, he contacted me, and...nothing changed. Now I'm just disoriented, have lost any "hand" the no-contact gave me, have heard him say some VERY sweet things about me, and still am left with nothing.

But it's not a game or a one-time-only thing. You decide if you need to move on, and if so, do NC.

 

It's simple. Get back on the NC train. If he contacts you, don't reply. You aren't being an ass if you don't reply. You are simply setting boundaries and not letting anyone cross them.

I agree with the boundary idea here. Like I said - decide what is important to you, set those boundaries, and then enforce them. He may choose not to (or be unable to) meet you there, and if so, you have your answer.

 

Didn't see an answer to the "why celibacy" question, but maybe I missed it further up... Did this idea grow from it likely being a condition of being with him, or was it something you were considering independently?

[UmbrellaBoy]

Yes, we were considering it individually, in fact that's how we met online.

[Dust]

I immediately assumed they were gay men when 1) no gender was mentioned just x,y,z and 2) Shirtless cuddling was the only sexual thing that happened, I mean what girl cuddles with out a shirt on with out even kissing.

 

My advice to the OP is look at what is going on. Don’t be afraid to look for people closer to you. The love born out of convenience of location is a powerful thing. This person just wants to be friends and their actions show that. Look for some on closer to you, or at least some one willing to close the gap and take this serious.

[UmbrellaBoy]

I told him I was going no contact again, this time permanently. Meaning: no hope, no matter what. That I would have to be "dead" to him, in the sense that even if he did come knocking some day, I would not respond, because if there was any even hope of ever having contact again, then it wouldn't really be like I had "died," the grief wouldn't be the same if there was a "maybe, someday, eventually," still there.

 

Well, he broke down, said if I was going to "force" him to choose, he'd take my side, but needs his space not to interact with me now for a while while he gets used to the idea in his own head. But, in the past few days, he's announced his decision to several friends and to an internet forum we're on together...so it sounds like he's sticking to that resolve (it's harder to revoke the more people you tell, I think). Hasn't talked to his BF yet, but I think is building up the courage to do so.