How we treat cheaters on this board

[tami-chan]

If that was a dig at me I'll just say...hey, life's unfair, cheergirl.

 

You think that if I ended up in an affair and said "Well golly, it was all because of the circumstances that this happened", my partner would take me seriously? Doubt it.

 

How do I know this? Because I've ended up in far worse situations than affairs. I'm probably less of a saint than most of the people on LS.

 

Either accept the possibility that some of the "mean, close-minded, and judgemental" people here might be speaking unpleasant truths, or close your mind to them. Either way works.

 

Indeed, life is unfair...so why bother doing anything right? ...is that statement supposed to justify unfair acts?

[tami-chan]

Mmmhmmm....

 

Did you expect a BS like you would make a comment like that? c'mon, you are stretching, dex!

[John Michael Kane]

Did you expect a BS like you would make a comment like that? c'mon, you are stretching, dex!

 

Yes I love stretching.

[tami-chan]

Yes I love stretching.

 

Touche!

[rafallus]

Indeed, life is unfair...so why bother doing anything right? ...is that statement supposed to justify unfair acts?

 

I think you misunderstood his post.

[John Michael Kane]

Touche!

 

Why thank you.

[tami-chan]

I think you misunderstood his post.

 

How?

 

If we can all say the things we really want to say in a way we want to say it...and if everybody has the attitude "tough luck, life is an unfair" nobody will cry to the moderator and report anyone. Why? because life is unfair...some people get praised and some other get slammed and maligned and we all should just tolerate them-that's what I understand from that phrase.

 

Got anything to add?

[rafallus]

You fixate on two words, when rest of the post puts them in completely different context?

[Joe Normal]

I agree 'no one is perfect', but there are still major differences in the morality of people's conduct. One persons flaw might be occasionally incurring parking tickets, and telling white lies when his wife asks does her bottom look big in that dress. Another might be a serial rapist or child abuser. Would you say 'no one is perfect' and try to make some kind of moral equivalence between the two?

 

Cheaters get criticised because their conduct is wrong, and worthy of criticism. Other things being equal, cheaters are morally inferior to those who stay faithful. Their actions cause immense emotional damage, and sometimes serious STD infections, unwanted pregnancies, and financial calamity, as well as using up taxpayer funds in countless divorce and family court cases. We're not talking about people who pick their nose in public, or forget to return library books on time.

 

And you know, you get treated on roughly the level you treat others. A cheater has treated someone else horribly. So, if they get criticised on a message board (a far less nasty experience than having your spouse ride another person's genitals), well yaboo shucks, I guess they'll just have to deal with it, like their spouse had to deal with their infidelity. Grow a thicker skin, like your spouse had to.

[John Michael Kane]

Now you have to use disinfectant.

 

Exactly.:laugh:

[OldOnTheInside]

Indeed, life is unfair...so why bother doing anything right? ...is that statement supposed to justify unfair acts?

Why bother to do anything right? No reason at all, except that a person chooses to for moralistic reasons. And the threat of legal retribution. Or illegal.

 

If we can all say the things we really want to say in a way we want to say it...and if everybody has the attitude "tough luck, life is an unfair" nobody will cry to the moderator and report anyone.

My opinion isn't universal law. Make of that as you will.

 

The below quote I find interesting.

 

You don't believe there are cases where circumstances create messes? People get into messes because they dig into it every time?

You see, I've been called in to testify in court a handful of times to provide psychological evaluation for the defendants. Since I'm friends with people that work in Law, I spend more time around lawyers then I would like to. I'm also the godd*mn Batman, and I shoot rainbows out of my eyes.

 

The "circumstances defence" is extremely flimsy. It is something that the defendant's party uses when they are lacking in solid supporting evidence of their innocence. "Sh*t just went down" does not make you look good in the eyes of the Judge or jury. Essentially, you are relying entirely on the prosecutor to provide even flimsier arguments.

 

Now, if an argument like that is flimsy enough when thrown in the obstructive bureaucracy that is the law courts, how do you think it holds up everywhere else?

[tami-chan]

You fixate on two words, when rest of the post puts them in completely different context?

 

Au contraire. I got exactly what she was trying to say, albeit, people can only say that to the people who are in affairs. Can you imagine somebody coming to LS saying my husband cheated and somebody says, "life is unfair-suck it up make yourself more attractive and move on". Talk about asking to be jump on!

[OldOnTheInside]

"life is unfair-suck it up make yourself more attractive and move on".

 

If I'm going to be honest, that is basically what I think about when referring to BSs too. The alternative would be to endlessly complain about it, let yourself go, and obsess over it to the point of mental instability. None of that is constructive.

 

But if a BS, AP or MP is seriously in emotional turmoil, I would never put it like that. Why? Because they would recieve no benefit from extremely d*ckish and blunt behaviour. Many of the posters here, such as cheergirl, are not in emotional turmoil, and thus, don't need to be mollycoddled. It has nothing to do with the fact that she is an OW. I just believe that she is simply unempathetic and overly dismissive to any viewpoint that she doesn't agree with, as well as leaving a few comments that skirt the personal attack line.

 

Me? I actually think that nyrias and cg bring up some very good points. I just don't believe those points to be particularly practical in real life. Simply because my own experiences while dealing with the many unpleasantries of humanity, have lead me to think differently.

 

Problem?

Edited July 4, 2011 by OldOnTheInside

[wheelwright]

Did you expect a BS like you would make a comment like that? c'mon, you are stretching, dex!

 

Oh

[wheelwright]

Having said, that I have to ask: Have you ever had a job where you commanded a lot of authority and responsibility? Blaming the circumstances will get you laughed out of the room. In fact, since the circumstances will rarely fix a mess on their own, the person still has to take responsibility...[/QUOTE]

 

As a cheater, I agree with bolded.

 

I did on the one hand want the mess to be unobserved (that's what cheating is after all) and on the other for everyone to see that the circumstances were understandable.

 

Instead, I had to take responsibility.

 

Responsibility for how I felt, the hurt I had caused, the changes I needed to make which I had been cowardly about.

 

If someone has the wherewithal to instigate a change when needed without this, I would recommend it over the path I took.

 

This accepted, I still think the old chesnut about cheaters being essentially amoral is hogwash.

 

Some do not buy into marital fidelity because they follow other internal guidelines which do not match the cultural trajectory.

 

That doesn't feel right to me, but who knows?

 

Others know they want to change, and fall in love. This is hugely transformational. One of the problems on the board is that people may arrive at a need for change quite subconsciously. They get blindsided by their own infidelity. This seems to be a great bone of contention for BSs and other interested parties, but I have experienced that in a painful way.

 

If consciously you inhibit necessary change, then it will creep up on you.

 

I believe it is possible for people to live in integrity having already met and dealt with their shadowy subconscious. I believe such people would generally be forgiving of people who have had As, if the latter recognise the negative in themselves which allowed that to happen.

 

There is a mixture of circumstance and responsibility at play.

 

People who walk away from As whipping themselves may be at risk of brushing stuff under the carpet.

 

Same goes for a BS viewing such behaviour. Or encouraging it.

[John Michael Kane]

Having said, that I have to ask: Have you ever had a job where you commanded a lot of authority and responsibility? Blaming the circumstances will get you laughed out of the room. In fact, since the circumstances will rarely fix a mess on their own, the person still has to take responsibility...[/QUOTE]

 

As a cheater, I agree with bolded.

 

I did on the one hand want the mess to be unobserved (that's what cheating is after all) and on the other for everyone to see that the circumstances were understandable.

 

Instead, I had to take responsibility.

 

Responsibility for how I felt, the hurt I had caused, the changes I needed to make which I had been cowardly about.

 

If someone has the wherewithal to instigate a change when needed without this, I would recommend it over the path I took.

 

This accepted, I still think the old chesnut about cheaters being essentially amoral is hogwash.

 

Some do not buy into marital fidelity because they follow other internal guidelines which do not match the cultural trajectory.

 

That doesn't feel right to me, but who knows?

 

Others know they want to change, and fall in love. This is hugely transformational. One of the problems on the board is that people may arrive at a need for change quite subconsciously. They get blindsided by their own infidelity. This seems to be a great bone of contention for BSs and other interested parties, but I have experienced that in a painful way.

 

If consciously you inhibit necessary change, then it will creep up on you.

 

I believe it is possible for people to live in integrity having already met and dealt with their shadowy subconscious. I believe such people would generally be forgiving of people who have had As, if the latter recognise the negative in themselves which allowed that to happen. What negative? No BS is responsible for their wayward cheating on them.

 

There is a mixture of circumstance and responsibility at play. There is no mixture of circumstance. A circumstance doesn't make you do anything you don't want to do.

 

People who walk away from As whipping themselves may be at risk of brushing stuff under the carpet. They do need to whip themselves because they deserve it.

 

Same goes for a BS viewing such behaviour. Or encouraging it. What?

 

Okay.......

[cheergirl]

Having said, that I have to ask: Have you ever had a job where you commanded a lot of authority and responsibility? Blaming the circumstances will get you laughed out of the room. In fact, since the circumstances will rarely fix a mess on their own, the person still has to take responsibility...[/QUOTE]

 

As a cheater, I agree with bolded.

 

I did on the one hand want the mess to be unobserved (that's what cheating is after all) and on the other for everyone to see that the circumstances were understandable.

 

Instead, I had to take responsibility.

 

Responsibility for how I felt, the hurt I had caused, the changes I needed to make which I had been cowardly about.

 

If someone has the wherewithal to instigate a change when needed without this, I would recommend it over the path I took.

 

This accepted, I still think the old chesnut about cheaters being essentially amoral is hogwash.

 

Some do not buy into marital fidelity because they follow other internal guidelines which do not match the cultural trajectory.

 

That doesn't feel right to me, but who knows?

 

Others know they want to change, and fall in love. This is hugely transformational. One of the problems on the board is that people may arrive at a need for change quite subconsciously. They get blindsided by their own infidelity. This seems to be a great bone of contention for BSs and other interested parties, but I have experienced that in a painful way.

 

If consciously you inhibit necessary change, then it will creep up on you.

 

I believe it is possible for people to live in integrity having already met and dealt with their shadowy subconscious. I believe such people would generally be forgiving of people who have had As, if the latter recognise the negative in themselves which allowed that to happen.

 

There is a mixture of circumstance and responsibility at play.

 

People who walk away from As whipping themselves may be at risk of brushing stuff under the carpet.

 

Same goes for a BS viewing such behaviour. Or encouraging it.

 

Whoa, yeah, totally agree...

[wheelwright]

 

Okay.......

 

What negative? No BS is responsible for their wayward cheating on them.

 

There is a mixture of circumstance and responsibility at play. There is no mixture of circumstance. A circumstance doesn't make you do anything you don't want to do.

 

People who walk away from As whipping themselves may be at risk of brushing stuff under the carpet. They do need to whip themselves because they deserve it.

 

Same goes for a BS viewing such behaviour. Or encouraging it. What?

I dunno, if I were a BS who had not given physically to my spouse for many months, I would reflect on that and find it relevant to the circumstances of betrayal. It doesn't make anyone do anything, but it's a factor. What's wrong with considering such factors?

 

It's not the same as an excuse, no responsibility. It's about understanding people instead of condemning.

 

I really gave up black and white thinking a while back -like maybe when I was 5.

 

I'm sure someone very clever and important has already said this, but the 'only thing I can't stand is intolerance'

[cheergirl]

Au contraire. I got exactly what she was trying to say, albeit, people can only say that to the people who are in affairs. Can you imagine somebody coming to LS saying my husband cheated and somebody says, "life is unfair-suck it up make yourself more attractive and move on". Talk about asking to be jump on!

 

Actually, not too long ago, when a woman's husband strayed, the blame was usually put squarely on the wife, by her mom, family and society; certainly other women.

It was seen to be the womans's responsibility to "keep" her man.

Now the expectations have changed to the point where a spouse can gain 100lbs or more and still expect their spouse to find them sexually attractive and stay faithful. If the spouse strays, s/he is scum/lying/cheating bastard etc...

This isn't realistic, but why deal with reality when you can call people names:rolleyes:...

 

 

Still, doesn't change a thing...

[cheergirl]

It's not the same as an excuse, no responsibility. It's about understanding people instead of condemning.

 

I really gave up black and white thinking a while back -like maybe when I was 5.

 

I'm sure someone very clever and important has already said this, but the 'only thing I can't stand is intolerance':bunny:

[wheelwright]

 

Whoa, yeah, totally agree...

 

Thanks!

 

I don't think I ever got a bunny before!

[OldOnTheInside]

It's about understanding people instead of condemning.

 

What about understanding and then condemning?

 

I had to do both a lot when I was younger (nothing to do with infidelity). In fact, I found it easier to condemn when I truly got to understand their POV because I went throught the same sh*t.

 

I really gave up black and white thinking a while back

 

Agreed. But might I suggest that you give up grey and grey thinking too?

 

I gave up on all of it when I hit 10.

 

only thing I can't stand is intolerance

 

Ha ha. Depends on what you are trying to tolerate.

[wheelwright]

And no one said they didn't understand her. We know where she's coming from but that still doesn't excuse cheating.

 

But while we're on the subject of "understanding," you'd know the behavior you yourself recently engaged in is wrong.

 

I know what you mean.

 

When I was young, I had poor boundaries around men who liked me, because I wanted them to like me and so I didn't want to say 'no'.

 

Any behaviour surrounding these encounters felt 'wrong' and I was able to stop them. The feeling wrong thing was present.

 

But it never felt wrong like this in my A. Because I knew I had fallen in love, and I would change my life whatever happened.

 

It is the only time I have been in love and had sex.

 

I do wish I had dealt with things better, but with what I knew and felt, this was the way I did things.

 

I don't hate myself for it at all. It has engendered the most life changing stuff, that you would laugh at if I told you.

[wheelwright]

What about understanding and then condemning?

I had to do both a lot when I was younger (nothing to do with infidelity). In fact, I found it easier to condemn when I truly got to understand their POV because I went throught the same sh*t.

 

Agreed. But might I suggest that you give up grey and grey thinking too?

 

I gave up on all of it when I hit 10.

 

Ha ha. Depends on what you are trying to tolerate.

 

Understanding involves the possibility of condemnation without acting on it. In the soul.

 

It involves letting others be without your own thinking colouring what you think about them. It is not about grey. It is incredibly difficult, and I still have some dealbreakers such as female circumscion. Mostly though, you will know the thing to be not tolerated by its malice. Then the soul recoils, and it is not about judgment anymore.

 

What is grey and grey thinking?

 

I agree there are some things we should not tolerate. They usually involve malice and evil, which we weren't on the subject of, and are a separate issue to the vagaries of A morality. On the whole.

[wheelwright]

But it never felt wrong like this in my A. Because I knew I had fallen in love, and I would change my life whatever happened.

 

Exactly. Your attitude was totally selfish and amoral. All you cared about was what you thought would make you feel good. It didn't "feel wrong" to you because you have no real internal sense of right and wrong. You still quite obviously don't have such an internal sense of right and wrong. You have no conscience, not really. You're a classically amoral person.

 

It is the only time I have been in love and had sex.

 

If this is true and not just another lie, then it means you never actually loved your husband, because you obviously must have had sex with your husband during your marriage. If that sex was without love, as you say it was, it means you lied to your husband throughout your marriage and even before you married him.

 

So the cheating which ended your marriage was just the culmination of your amoral behavior in getting married to someone that you never loved in the first place, and lying to him about it.

 

I think this summary has some merit.

 

But you don't know that story so well as me, and if you like, you can cut me some slack.