How we treat cheaters on this board

[John Michael Kane]

I've never in my life seen anyone who could twist words around like you do.

 

Thank you so much.

 

Talking about things is what helps us to move on.

I'm not sure of the Physical Symptoms of pain you're speaking of. I don't think that a husband & wife having a conversation about their past behaviors is hardly Physical Symptoms Of Pain...........

 

Yea okay.

 

We'll just disagree........You think the cheater deserves no forgiveness. I think there are still good people in this world that DO forgive.

 

Sure some do forgive, but that doesn't mean they have to put up with it.

[betterdeal]

No, I don't think. Not in the sense that you or I know the truth let alone that we can tell him the truth. Truth in this sense is entirely subjective. Truths about the physical world are easy to agree on. Truths about our own personal reality are entirely, and necessarily, subjective.

 

What is more important to you - that he lives in the present and stops hurting and being hurt, or that what you determine is right is vindicated by external source i.e. him?

 

I'll add to this, I think we can better help each other acknowledge the truth by non-judgmental, open enquiry, rather than by trying to tell one another the truth about a specific relationship we were not part of. So yes, the truth matters, but it's not for me to tell you your truth.

[DufenSchmertz]

I'll add to this, I think we can better help each other acknowledge the truth by non-judgmental, open enquiry, rather than by trying to tell one another the truth about a specific relationship we were not part of. So yes, the truth matters, but it's not for me to tell you your truth.

 

Do you realize that bolded statement is itself a judgment on your part?

[confusedinkansas]

I'll add to this, I think we can better help each other acknowledge the truth by non-judgmental, open enquiry, rather than by trying to tell one another the truth about a specific relationship we were not part of. So yes, the truth matters, but it's not for me to tell you your truth.

 

Amen!!!!

[betterdeal]

Do you realize that bolded statement is itself a judgment on your part?

 

No, I don't. Can you explain how it is, please? Bearing in mind the context in which it was said, I thought it was pretty clear is refers to judging the other person, not judging what is a more effective way to help them resolve their issues.

Edited May 19, 2011 by betterdeal

[DufenSchmertz]

No, I don't. Can you explain how it is, please? Bearing in mind the context in which it was said, I thought it was pretty clear is refers to judging the other person, not judging what is a more effective way to help them resolve their issues.

 

Of course you don't, because everyone who claims the rubric of being "non judgmental" simply wants to suppress those judgments which they find disagreeable, from a holier-than-thou vantage point.

 

You made a judgment, obviously, about what YOU believe the proper way to discuss these issues is. A judgment is a judgment is a judgment.

 

I judge you to be just as judgmental as anyone else stating an opinion here, but you want to pretend otherwise.

 

If that's not clear enough for you (I think you obviously know what I'm talking about), by "non judgmental" you mean "non critical" of the person's actions. However, choosing to be "non critical" where criticism may well be warranted, depending on circumstances, is itself a judgment.

 

So, perhaps you should have said "non critical," not "non judgmental." Being non-critical, to mollify someone's feelings, is indeed a judgment, and it may be harmful to the person, if criticism is warranted, because it may provide implicit encouragement for the continuance of bad or dysfunctional behavior.

Edited May 19, 2011 by DufenSchmertz

[betterdeal]

Oh right. Thanks for clarifying your statement.

[DufenSchmertz]

Oh right. Thanks for clarifying your statement.

 

No problem.

 

Listen, you are free to be "non judgmental" or "non critical" or whatever you want to call it, but please divorce yourself from the notion that a "non judgmental" or "non critical" attitude is somehow more effective, or more valuable, to anyone than is a "critical" or "judgmental" attitude. "Criticism" and "judgment" obviously includes both positive and negative criticism.

 

When people make mistakes, they don't get much benefit from being deceived into thinking that those mistakes don't need to be corrected.

[thomasb]

You did ask for advice not so long ago on gestures that would help demonstrate to your wife how grateful you are that she took you back. I hope she also asks for tips on how to show her gratitude to you, else your M seems - to an onlooker - still to be suffering. And I don't think that's right for either of you.

 

 

Sigh... Silly. I will always look for ways to show my dear wife how much I love and appreciate her. And it doesn't have anything to do with events from long in the past. It has to do with our future. You can't undo the past. You can only move forward.

[Snowflower]

thomasb, I'm glad you're here posting and haven't let the haters get to you.

 

I like your perspective--it is unique here as a happily reconciled fWS. It brings a good balance to these forums. We have plenty of BS's and plenty of AP's so any and all WS who dare to post offer valuable insight-no matter what ultimately happened to their marriage.

[thomasb]

thomasb, I'm glad you're here posting and haven't let the haters get to you.

 

I like your perspective--it is unique here as a happily reconciled fWS. It brings a good balance to these forums. We have plenty of BS's and plenty of AP's so any and all WS who dare to post offer valuable insight-no matter what ultimately happened to their marriage.

 

 

Thank you Snow flower. It gets a little old though. But, i have come to think that this board needs a different perspective and refuse to be scared off by who you call the haters. And I also know that the haters are the ones who fight against the truth, that I will not be a part of the breakdown of morality and the breakdown of the family, And I will never willingly and consciously hurt my family again.

[JaneyAmazed]

Thank you Snow flower. It gets a little old though. But, i have come to think that this board needs a different perspective and refuse to be scared off by who you call the haters. And I also know that the haters are the ones who fight against the truth, that I will not be a part of the breakdown of morality and the breakdown of the family, And I will never willingly and consciously hurt my family again.

 

I've dealt with the "haters" too. Right after my affair ended it was brutal. I was being ridiculed for not knowing how I'd react to a revenge affair. My husband was accused of being a doormat. I didn't let those comments bother me too much because I knew what was true and real. Everyone has an opinion. A lot of the attacking comes from people who are hurting. I tried to take that into consideration as well.

[tami-chan]

this is nonsense.

 

I am not the one who suggested that maybe he just wants to "vent". I was responding to that post. How about some context, huh?

 

Lets say a person had measles 20 years ago, but they got better and healed. Does the fact that 20 years later they are discussing their experiences with measles mean they are still healing from measles?

 

Ahm...no, but talking about the person whom you contracted the measles from with so much venom and anger after 20 years probably means somebody is stuck in the past.

 

there are some people who can't.[/b] Everyone is different. Just because someone chooses to share their experiences that does not mean they have not "healed"... perhaps they are simply trying to help someone else because they feel good about helping someone else.

 

Exactly. "Some people can't heal" and I think most of us believe that that is not healthy! We want people to heal-at least, I do. 20 years is a long time to still harbor evil thoughts and feelings for somebody.

[LifesontheUp]

Exactly. "Some people can't heal" and I think most of us believe that that is not healthy! We want people to heal-at least, I do. 20 years is a long time to still harbor evil thoughts and feelings for somebody.

 

I don't know where you are getting this nonsense from. But its clear to me that there are haters of Thomas on the forum - usually OW.

 

Just because he is a fWS who quite openly admits that his affair is something that he looks back on with regret and good forbid he dislikes his OW he gets jumped on all over the forum

 

My xH dislikes his OW too, and bitterly regrets ever being involved with her. Doesn't mean he hasn't moved on all these years later.

 

Perhaps the issue here is why it annoys you so much TC that you have to post about him like you do. Thats not healthy from my perspective.

[Fugu]

As an XBS who has succesfully reconciled and has a healthier relationship despite my H's A I can categorically state that WE both contributed to our marriage going off track, HIS job (military) produced circumstances that sent him totally off the track BUT he was the person that chose to have an A rather than work it through with me. I take full responsibility for our marriage problems, absolutely none for the A. However, it was also OUR decision to rebuild a relationship that we are both committed to and are happy in.

 

This is a quality post, thank you. I think that this is what I've been saying all along in these affairs threads, both as fugu and under my former handle. I think that, too often, those who are cheated on only want to look at the affair, which is wrong. Nevertheless, as you say, choosing to handle it by straying from the relationship is dishonest and dishonorable, and it's a terrible way to address the issues that are driving too people apart.

 

I find how people are treated on this board is generally in proportion to how they treat others, of course there are some that are here just for sport, but they are easily identified and often ignored or just prodded every now and again.

 

I find that as well. When you see posters coming on here and calling other posters scum and all sorts of other names and react with such intense anger and hostility, something tells me that this reveals a lot about their character, and that maybe there's a reason they, too, were cheated on. Whenever I point out that, you know, maybe two people are to blame in a broken marriage, it always gets steered back to cheating -- never any willingness to accept responsibility for the fact that those who were cheated on could have contributed to the sad state of their marriage. This pigheaded refusal to see the world any other way, and this myopia of focusing only on the affair - which is often a reaction to the situation that has arisen before the act - tells us a lot about the quality of their contributions to their marriage.

 

Again, I want to be clear: you cannot justify cheating. It's wrong - unequivocally. But as you say, the visceral rage from posters says a lot about them.

[John Michael Kane]

But as you say, the visceral rage from posters says a lot about them.

 

There's no "but" about it. If you hurt someone in real life and can't take advice on a public internet forum, it says a lot about the cheater.

[Snowflower]

This is a quality post, thank you. I think that this is what I've been saying all along in these affairs threads, both as fugu and under my former handle. I think that, too often, those who are cheated on only want to look at the affair, which is wrong. Nevertheless, as you say, choosing to handle it by straying from the relationship is dishonest and dishonorable, and it's a terrible way to address the issues that are driving too people apart.

 

I find how people are treated on this board is generally in proportion to how they treat others, of course there are some that are here just for sport, but they are easily identified and often ignored or just prodded every now and again.

 

I find that as well. When you see posters coming on here and calling other posters scum and all sorts of other names and react with such intense anger and hostility, something tells me that this reveals a lot about their character, and that maybe there's a reason they, too, were cheated on. Whenever I point out that, you know, maybe two people are to blame in a broken marriage, it always gets steered back to cheating -- never any willingness to accept responsibility for the fact that those who were cheated on could have contributed to the sad state of their marriage. This pigheaded refusal to see the world any other way, and this myopia of focusing only on the affair - which is often a reaction to the situation that has arisen before the act - tells us a lot about the quality of their contributions to their marriage.

 

Again, I want to be clear: you cannot justify cheating. It's wrong - unequivocally. But as you say, the visceral rage from posters says a lot about them.

 

Great post fugu. (would love to have known your former 'handle' )

 

I agree and I think how people present themselves on here is largely how they present themselves in real life.

 

There are some established AP here who, while I don't like what they are doing, I can still respect and even like because they are respectful to the anonymous posters here.

 

I take a lot of blame, as a BS, for the breakdown of our marriage pre-affair. It was in a worse place than I thought and I didn't address the issues in a constructive way. When my H began to distance himself (and this was even before the start of his affair) I didn't handle his distancing in a constructive manner.

 

For a long time, I really hated myself for handling things so poorly. I would never say that I pushed him into having an affair, that was all his choice. I feel like he and I could have prevented the whole thing from happening if we had been better spouses, communicators, etc.

 

I do understand when APs in particular (as well as others) make comments like the "BS is not so innocent" or whatever. I still think they are mean and insinuate (to me) that the BS deserved to get cheated on. But I do agree that sometimes-not always-the actions of the BS pre-affair did not help things.

 

It's just that no one can determine from the outside what exactly happened in the marriage pre-affair.

[betterdeal]

Why are they doing it?

[John Michael Kane]

It's very possible for many of us to conjure up scenarios in our minds in which one spouse is so abusive or so horrible or so deficient in some manner, and the other spouse has no viable alternative for whatever reason, that it is much much easier to get involved in an affair.

 

The problem is, I don't see many if any active WS's actually posting at Love Shack, that this type of scenario would apply to. It sounds good in theory, but in actuality, it is probably more likely that the cheating spouse is the abuser in the marriage, not the abused.

 

Exactly. It's not always both spouses at fault for the marriage. Sometimes it's just the cheater who treated their spouse like trash all through the marriage, then decided to cheat. But no matter, if one cheated, nobody is at fault except for the cheater.

[Fugu]

There's no "but" about it. If you hurt someone in real life and can't take advice on a public internet forum, it says a lot about the cheater.

 

Uh, giving "advice" is one thing; being a dick is quite another.

[John Michael Kane]

Uh, giving "advice" is one thing; being a dick is quite another.

 

No one's being a dick by pointing out the obvious. The only ding-a-lings who can't even take advice are the cheaters. They come here for validation and then when they don't get it they want to call someone bitter, when they're the ones who are bitter because they messed up their own lives. So there's no "uh" about it, Fufu.

[Graceful]

No problem.

 

Listen, you are free to be "non judgmental" or "non critical" or whatever you want to call it, but please divorce yourself from the notion that a "non judgmental" or "non critical" attitude is somehow more effective, or more valuable, to anyone than is a "critical" or "judgmental" attitude. "Criticism" and "judgment" obviously includes both positive and negative criticism.

 

When people make mistakes, they don't get much benefit from being deceived into thinking that those mistakes don't need to be corrected.

Late to the party here ... and I don't participate in this forum as a rule, but this thread has bumped a bunch of times when I'm scanning at the index level, so I'll weigh in on this statement.

 

I prefer to say that I hit raw nerves --- because I do. Lots of times. In the other forums, I speak the truth as I see it. I speak *my* truth, in terms of observation of the facts, patterns of behavior that I am familiar with, and other factors.

 

I have been received almost 100% of the time positively, favorably and with praise, for saying it as I see it, not sugar coating, and at times, being the only person to do so.

 

But I perceive that the reason the OP listens to me and thanks me is b/c of the way I write my response. I manage, even when being critical, to show them that I am there to help, that I am there because I want them to succeed, and that I would not be writing if I were antagonistic.

 

Would I ever justify cheating. No, I would not. But would I be able to give feedback to someone regarding what they did, why they did it, their attitude towards it, etc. -- sure. If I felt like it. If I didn't feel like it, I'd leave the thread, plain and simple. Why bother? Waste of time and energy. I don't like my day to include knowing I've been mean or nasty for no reason, even to a stranger. What's the point?

 

If someone clearly has no remorse, why bother posting to them if cheating is unjustifiable to you? Let them live in their world, you live in yours. If they have affairs for the rest of their lives, so be it. Now that's something I refuse to judge, because frankly, I just don't care, I don't know the person. Live like that. It would suck for me, but you're not me.

 

My perception here is that you have antagonistic and confrontational responses and people. That's the diff. You can be truthful, you can be critical, you can even be judgmental, without being antagonistic, confrontational, mean, nasty, counterproductive, or overbearing.

 

To me, that's the diff. It's not the message, it's the way the messenger delivers it. Just my two cents.

[bestplayer]

Uh, giving "advice" is one thing; being a dick is quite another.

 

how we treat cheaters on this board ?

 

we f*** them up while they are already in f***ed up mental state .

[ladydesigner]

Late to the party here ... and I don't participate in this forum as a rule, but this thread has bumped a bunch of times when I'm scanning at the index level, so I'll weigh in on this statement.

 

I prefer to say that I hit raw nerves --- because I do. Lots of times. In the other forums, I speak the truth as I see it. I speak *my* truth, in terms of observation of the facts, patterns of behavior that I am familiar with, and other factors.

 

I have been received almost 100% of the time positively, favorably and with praise, for saying it as I see it, not sugar coating, and at times, being the only person to do so.

 

But I perceive that the reason the OP listens to me and thanks me is b/c of the way I write my response. I manage, even when being critical, to show them that I am there to help, that I am there because I want them to succeed, and that I would not be writing if I were antagonistic.

 

Would I ever justify cheating. No, I would not. But would I be able to give feedback to someone regarding what they did, why they did it, their attitude towards it, etc. -- sure. If I felt like it. If I didn't feel like it, I'd leave the thread, plain and simple. Why bother? Waste of time and energy. I don't like my day to include knowing I've been mean or nasty for no reason, even to a stranger. What's the point?

 

If someone clearly has no remorse, why bother posting to them if cheating is unjustifiable to you? Let them live in their world, you live in yours. If they have affairs for the rest of their lives, so be it. Now that's something I refuse to judge, because frankly, I just don't care, I don't know the person. Live like that. It would suck for me, but you're not me.

 

My perception here is that you have antagonistic and confrontational responses and people. That's the diff. You can be truthful, you can be critical, you can even be judgmental, without being antagonistic, confrontational, mean, nasty, counterproductive, or overbearing.

 

To me, that's the diff. It's not the message, it's the way the messenger delivers it. Just my two cents.

 

This is one of the best posts I have read here. Thank you!!!

[jsb58]

Everyone is just trying to get through this the best they can.

Now I have heard it all.