How we treat cheaters on this board

[reboot]

I agree with you silk, over the years, it's been my observation that the (rare) WH or OM that posts here is usually pummeled to within an inch of their life.

[betterdeal]

Yea right, "everyone" agrees with the laws of today.

 

You think there's anything more than a minuscule part of the populace that wants child abuse legalised, or that wants adultery criminalised. Maybe stand for office with those as central planks of your campaign, see how it goes down. If you win you'll be able to influence law changes and get a step closer to the Ameristan you wish for.

 

Nah I just know you're assuming something out of your rooty-tooty.

 

Oh, so you actually parsed "wider society" as meaning "a few people on the internet".

[HappyAtLast]

I agree with you silk, over the years, it's been my observation that the (rare) WH or OM that posts here is usually pummeled to within an inch of their life.

 

I took a good amount of pummeling when I first came here. I found that by being patient with folks and not lashing back we were able to come to some understanding. Of course, a thick skin helped.

[OldOnTheInside]

I agree with you silk, over the years, it's been my observation that the (rare) WH or OM that posts here is usually pummeled to within an inch of their life.

 

I would expect that people who decide to go on anonymous internet forums would quickly develop thick skins. Hell, you'd think they would've developed thick skins through their real life experiences. I would think that it is healthy to be able to take some harsh words without bursting into tears and running off.

 

Having said that, completely mindless and pointless flaming is surprisingly rare on LS IMO...compared to many other (nastier) forums anyway. Usually it is just highly opinionated people (from every position of the BS/WS/OW/OM spectrum funnily enough) butting heads loudly. Considering some of the even more idiotic sh*t you will find on the internet, I would still consider many of those types of posts to be a cut above the rest.

 

To stay on topic, what gain is there to mollycoddle certain posters? While some people here are unnecessarily rude I still consider it unwise to devaluate their opinions just because a) you don't agree with them, or b) they aren't presented in the most tactful way. When I eff up in my own life, and get into ridiculous situations due to my own actions, I don't expect people to sugar coat or BS me, which is something I see all too often in some threads.

[John Michael Kane]

You think there's anything more than a minuscule part of the populace that wants child abuse legalised, or that wants adultery criminalised. Maybe stand for office with those as central planks of your campaign, see how it goes down. If you win you'll be able to influence law changes and get a step closer to the Ameristan you wish for.

 

Thanks for the encouragement but I never asked you for it.

 

Oh, so you actually parsed "wider society" as meaning "a few people on the internet".

 

Yea okay.

[JaneyAmazed]

.

 

To stay on topic, what gain is there to mollycoddle certain posters? While some people here are unnecessarily rude I still consider it unwise to devaluate their opinions just because a) you don't agree with them, or b) they aren't presented in the most tactful way. When I eff up in my own life, and get into ridiculous situations due to my own actions, I don't expect people to sugar coat or BS me, which is something I see all too often in some threads.

 

 

However, it is not unwise to devaluate their opinions if they are basing their opinions on assumptions and not facts. Also, I haven't noticed any sugar coating or BS in response to my situation, and I've been posting on and off since January. I've changed some of my views and actions because people were honest enough not to sugar coat and BS me.

[anne1707]

However, it is not unwise to devaluate their opinions if they are basing their opinions on assumptions and not facts. Also, I haven't noticed any sugar coating or BS in response to my situation, and I've been posting on and off since January. I've changed some of my views and actions because people were honest enough not to sugar coat and BS me.

 

I know for myself that when I came here, there was no sugar coating in the responses I got. Many were very harsh and very critical but I thought that was OK because I knew I had done wrong, was all over the place and needed a kick up the backside. I also saw how over time a couple of those posters in particular who were openly critical of me in the beginning - both former BS - changed their attitude towards me as they saw how I had changed.

 

Unfortunately I still find even three years into recovery and in forums other than Infidelity and OW/OM, that some posters will attempt to undermine me with something along the lines of "how can you talk of decency when you had an affair, you cold hearted, selfish, lying.....". An example of this only happened at the weekend.

 

I am upfront about being a former WS where I think it is relevant and I never try to hide that from a new BS if I try to help them but why should I have to declare my history wherever I go, whatever the subject? Why is my opinion less relevant as far as some are concerned? Sadly there are some (often fly by night, here for a few days but very high post rates) who think they know what is best and can sometimes be very abusive & aggressive when they try to stamp their feet.

[OldOnTheInside]

However, it is not unwise to devaluate their opinions if they are basing their opinions on assumptions and not facts. Also, I haven't noticed any sugar coating or BS in response to my situation, and I've been posting on and off since January. I've changed some of my views and actions because people were honest enough not to sugar coat and BS me.

 

The majority of the advise here is driven heavily by assumptions and not facts. After all, LS doesn't have 24 hour surveillance on your life (not specifically referring to you Janey but in general), the life of your SO, or the life of xAP so the only information we can glean about your overall situation is siphoned from your posts. This leaves a lot of blanks to be filled.

 

IMO unless the poster is deliberately being obtuse or d*ckish, I still wouldn't recommend devaluating their opinions. Even the most vitrolic users here can provide information to (as cheesy as this sounds) "broaden one's horizons".

 

There is still occasional sugar coating created by...certain posters (it is admittedly more prevalent on the "Other" forum as to be expected, but my point still stands). As anne and yourself said, a bit of tough love can be beneficial in the long term.

[Memphis Raines]

I took a good amount of pummeling when I first came here. I found that by being patient with folks and not lashing back we were able to come to some understanding. Of course, a thick skin helped.

 

thats because when you lash back, you are showing a character that indicates why one is a cheater/OM/OW in the first place.

 

And I think most people who despise cheaters/OM/OW, and yes, I do, will put things in plain english and will wait for the response. and alot of times, if the response is not lashing out and being defensive, it shows me that they are taking the well deserved lumps and are humble. therefore showing a true level of remorse. and then I will be more civil(not that I'm hostile:rolleyes:)

 

JaneyAmazed is one example(and a rare example) I didn't call her any names, didn't "pummel" her, but I told her the cold hard truth.

 

she didn't come back all defensive and showed this site that she is one of the rare cheaters that is doing everything she can to make amends.

 

if she would have come back all defensive, it would have shown me why she was selfish in the first place and isn't in the frame of mind as someone who is remorseful.

 

now there are some who will "pummel" whether the real life offender is defensive or not, but I believe there aren't that many, and the ones that you might think are sometimes soften up if someone does acknowledge they are deserving of the cold hard truth.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Memphis Raines

[nyrias]

The majority of the advise here is driven heavily by assumptions and not facts. After all, LS doesn't have 24 hour surveillance on your life (not specifically referring to you Janey but in general), the life of your SO, or the life of xAP so the only information we can glean about your overall situation is siphoned from your posts. This leaves a lot of blanks to be filled.

 

And one should not take advice on an anonymous internet forum where the agenda of the poster(s) are unknown.

 

For example, literature has shown that the percentage of professional councilors recommending disclosure changes depending on the situation. That means any one-size-fit-all advice is very dangerous and a person really need to have an in-depth analysis of their situation with a professional before deciding on a course of action.

 

Making a decision because someone on the internet say-so .... does not seem wise to me.

[Mz. Pixie]

There's a difference between Taking Criticism & constantly having to defend yourself because someone is ASSUMING everything that has happened in your life - instead of reading posts & taking them at face value. (Too many BS's here read between the lines)

 

Many (All) of us WS's have had to defend ourselves against the VERY HARSH BS posters. It's sad.........However, when we do defend ourselves & try to explain ANY story, we're told that we're making excuses....

 

It's just a vicious circle. There are a few here that, after a few rounds of ping-pong with them I've decided to just ignore their posts - whether they are regarding me or not. I just feel that if you're the poster that does treat the WS's here as if WE are the ones that have done you wrong - it's pointless. WE didn't hurt you. Your wife or husband did.

 

It's very true that the WS's that have stuck around have had to develop thick skins if we're going to post here. It's alright with me - But I do feel bad for those that are new & come here & are genuinely wanting some answers. They get slammed all over the place & many never return.

 

Gosh, this is so true. I haven't been here in a while but have posted for years. I see that some things never change.

[viennawaits]

I haven't read all the posts here, but read enough that I can still see the anger from many of you.

 

I came here two years ago to ask advice as a cheating spouse and was met with downright contempt. It was as if victims of cheating lumped all cheaters into the same horrible person and I was simply here to be their punching bag. I knew better than to accept that I was a POS simply because some very bitter and hurt people said so.

 

I am two years into trying to fix things with my husband. It has had its challenges, including unwanted contact at my home by OM in the past month. Because I have done my utmost to assure that I am honest and accounting for my time I was able to overcome this too. I still don't know if I can make it work with him, but I have never tried so hard in my life to become the person that I was years before the cheating and the person that I know myself capable of being again.

 

You all did offer my insight into the anger and resentments that my husband has had over this time, and I guess that is all I can thank you for.

 

Each story is different. I believe that save some completely sociopathic cases, the failure of a relationship is rarely ever one-sided. None of us can pretend to know both sides of every story. Instead of bashing people, I believe there is much to be learned about what both parties do right and wrong to get to the point of cheating, and more importantly, to get past it, whether by splitting up and leading productive lives or by working it out with the people that we married.

 

I am still searching for my own answers, and I hope that all people on this forum, the cheaters and the cheated on, find theirs as well.

[John Michael Kane]

I haven't read all the posts here, but read enough that I can still see the anger from many of you.

 

I came here two years ago to ask advice as a cheating spouse and was met with downright contempt. It was as if victims of cheating lumped all cheaters into the same horrible person and I was simply here to be their punching bag. I knew better than to accept that I was a POS simply because some very bitter and hurt people said so.

 

I am two years into trying to fix things with my husband. It has had its challenges, including unwanted contact at my home by OM in the past month. Because I have done my utmost to assure that I am honest and accounting for my time I was able to overcome this too. I still don't know if I can make it work with him, but I have never tried so hard in my life to become the person that I was years before the cheating and the person that I know myself capable of being again.

 

You all did offer my insight into the anger and resentments that my husband has had over this time, and I guess that is all I can thank you for.

 

Each story is different. I believe that save some completely sociopathic cases, the failure of a relationship is rarely ever one-sided. None of us can pretend to know both sides of every story. Instead of bashing people, I believe there is much to be learned about what both parties do right and wrong to get to the point of cheating, and more importantly, to get past it, whether by splitting up and leading productive lives or by working it out with the people that we married.

 

I am still searching for my own answers, and I hope that all people on this forum, the cheaters and the cheated on, find theirs as well.

 

You cheated on that man more than once. Those replies were not evil.

[nyrias]

Contempt for a repeat cheater, as you apparently are/were, is an appropriate reaction from someone who believes cheating is just about the lowest thing you could do to one's spouse.

 

The appropriateness of that reaction, depends on the circumstances and the relationship.

 

For example, it is totally NOT appropriate for a professional councilor or psychiatrist to demonstrate contempt towards a client. That is just plain unprofessional. He/she should be detached with no emotional response and use the best methods to help his/her client. Ditto for a lawyer who represent criminals.

 

On the internet anything goes. It is not more or less appropriate to show contempt, or take the small revenge, for being betrayed, to other cheaters by belittling them. Whether it is contempt, revenge, or just an ego boost of putting someone else down, who knows?

 

On the internet, just like the west west, there is no real standards.

[nyrias]

It has nothing to do with whether or not the reaction is "appropriate." It has to do with whether a cheater should be at all surprised that people who have themselves been betrayed, would find her to be worthy of their contempt.

 

Sure there is. You can't post anything you want even on the internet. The problem is that people believe they are entitled to a particular response when posting in an anonymous, public forum, but their expectation has absolutely zero justification.

 

Well, then you should choose your words more carefully. Of course cheaters should expect being slammed here, where there are a lot of BS. That does not detract from the point that appropriate-ness is still situational dependent, which is tied to the social norm of how one should behave. And what is "expected" *can* be quite different from what is "appropriate".

 

Within the context of this forum, there is quite a bit of latitude of what can be posted. For example, i can post an essay praising infidelity (not that i am for it, but i do want to use an unpopular example to see if people can understand a logical argument doing all the knee-jerk "if you don't condemn cheating in every post, you must be for it" reaction), and there is nothing you can do about it.

 

Of course you can condemn the post as strongly as you wish, and that there is nothing i can do about THAT. That is the essence of anything goes. Sure, there is some limit and i cannot post your personal information and threaten your safety ... but the boundaries is not that restrictive.

[Memphis Raines]

I haven't read all the posts here, but read enough that I can still see the anger from many of you.

 

I came here two years ago to ask advice as a cheating spouse and was met with downright contempt.

 

well there are a couple that will have contempt no matter what.

 

But if you were met with contempt by many, then your posts must have smacked with either entitlement, or justifications.

 

take JaneyAmazed for example. Even some of the harsher posters, and yes, such as myself, didn't treat her with contempt. She didn't make excuses and does everything a WS should do if they are to earn their 2nd chance and forgiveness. sure, there may have been a couple people that still had contempt for her, but most of the people that despise cheaters wish her the best because she didn't blame anyone but herself for her decision to cheat and didn't try to justify her cheating (well, with the exception of one little backslide, but I don't hold that against her).

 

 

It was as if victims of cheating lumped all cheaters into the same horrible person and I was simply here to be their punching bag.

 

again, depends on what your attitude towards your cheating was.

 

 

I knew better than to accept that I was a POS simply because some very bitter and hurt people said so.

 

no, you shouldn't, not because anyone said so. if you did feel like a POS it should have been because of your repeated offenses towards your husband, not what people said.

 

 

You all did offer my insight into the anger and resentments that my husband has had over this time, and I guess that is all I can thank you for.

 

and this is where the "harshness" or "contempt" come into play. you now know what your husband more than likely feels deep down, whether he shows it or not.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Memphis Raines

[nyrias]

But if you were met with contempt by many, then your posts must have smacked with either entitlement, or justifications.

 

That assumes people here will determine if a cheater's post is "smacked with either entitlement, or justifications", before showing contempt.

 

That is NOT the position of some posters here. For example, Kriss wrote,

 

"Contempt for a repeat cheater, as you apparently are/were, is an appropriate reaction from someone who believes cheating is just about the lowest thing you could do to one's spouse."

 

That is a position of showing contempt to any repeat cheater, disregarding if their posts are "smacked with either entitlement, or justifications".

 

I am not taking a position of whether contempt should be shown, or what conditions should be there for it, i am merely pointing out the flaw in your logic.

 

(oops .. i didn't read your first sentence "a couple will contempt no matter what" .. your logic is sound .. sorry)

[reboot]

the failure of a relationship is rarely ever one-sided

 

You are absolutely 100% right.

 

However,

 

The decision to have an affair is very often one-sided.

[Memphis Raines]

the failure of a relationship is rarely ever one-sided.

 

its not an excuse. you either fix the relationship, or end it. its not an excuse to cheat.

 

 

None of us can pretend to know both sides of every story.

 

both sides of the story don't matter with regards to ones choice to cheat. only that the relationship should end, or needs fixing.

 

 

Instead of bashing people, I believe there is much to be learned about what both parties do right and wrong to get to the point of cheating

 

sorry, your choice to cheat is not your husbands fault.

[viennawaits]

First of all, I am not pitying myself. From the very first post, I took responsibility for what I did. I did discuss my reasons for cheating, which you can choose to accept or not. My particular situation was not one-sided, but I do not make any excuses for what I did. Never have, never will.

 

I have worked on myself a great deal, and have tried to work through the issues over the last two years.

 

The "contact" was by phone, and my husband was standing right in front of me when I responded. I told him what the former OM said, and he heard my responses. I don't need a protective order to tell a drunk to stop calling my house.

 

You all presume to know a whole lot about my life, my motivations and my actions. When someone comes here and acknowledges their failures, asks for help and honestly tells you their situation you at least should respect that a little bit.

 

I see that you have all read my story, conveniently picked out the fact that I cheated multiple times, but fail to give me any credit for the fact that I lived with a man that was in and out of rehab, got sober, upon getting sober stopped physical contact with me for 10 years, yada yada yada.....

 

It isn't an excuse, it is simply what my life became; what I let it become. I am in control now. I am the one that can change it, and I am doing my best to make the changes in myself that can see this through. I am not engaged in any bad behavior with OM or any other man. Do any of you believe that marriage can be saved after an A? If you don't, then a conversation with me is pointless.

 

People do change. They make bad decisions. I can choose to wallow in self pity and guilt or I can choose to fix it. I chose the latter. In reality, I didn't need your help to do it, but a little advice from someone who had been through it and gotten through it successfully would have been nice. Marriages do succeed after infidelity. Maybe yours didn't, but some people make it through this.

 

I do hope that all of you that are angry have really dealt with your anger in some way. This is the kind of thing that can eat away at people, just the same as self-loathing and self-pity can. I am still remorseful about the A, but I cannot give my H the love and respect he deserves if I hate myself all the time. I cannot be an equal partner with him unless I believe that I am capable of being that. Two years down the road, it is better; not perfect, but better. In one month we will celebrate our 12th wedding anniversary. We have been together now for 16 years. I believe it is worth saving or I would have been gone a long time ago.

 

Judge me all you want. Maybe I should have left the first time he went to a detox center, or the second, or when he wiped out our bank accounts, or when he got fired from his multiple jobs, or maybe when he got out of rehab, oh, or when he had a relapse in drinking. I didn't. Now, he is sober again and I still love him. Despite all we've been through. I am not a victim or a perpetrator, I am simply living my life the best way I know how. I've f*ed up and he's f*ed up. Most days, though, we have many things in common and we enjoy each other's company. We remember the things that made us think to marry each other in the first place.

 

I don't need your pity or your venom. My marriage is worth it. We play softball, travel, go to concerts, watch movies together. At this point I can honestly say that we have worked through the trust issues and put everything right except our physical relationship. I live with my best friend, the man that knows me better than anyone on this planet. Still, on the rare occassion that we have sex, it isn't good. I am 37 years old, spent 10 years basically celibate, and I am not willing to resign myself to a life of bad sex and no sex. So fire away the reasons why I should, but this is the only problem in my marriage today.

 

There, you've got it. Lay it on me, I can take it, and I won't be crying and sniveling when you take my pain or hurt or sadness and turn it into something grotesque. I am a big girl now. I mostly just find it sad. If you need me to be the stand in to tell your cheating spouses whatever you didn't say to their faces, have at it. I can only do the best I can do.

[Woggle]

Child molestation is a bad analogy but here is a better one.

 

If somebody came on her bragging about how they stabbed their friends and family who trusted them in the back and then tried to act like they were the victim would we coddle them? I doubt we would so why should people who stabbed the person they vowed to love and cherish in the back and often with no remorse be treated as if they are the ones who are done wrong?

[Silly_Girl]

Child molestation is a bad analogy but here is a better one.

 

If somebody came on her bragging about how they stabbed their friends and family who trusted them in the back and then tried to act like they were the victim would we coddle them? I doubt we would so why should people who stabbed the person they vowed to love and cherish in the back and often with no remorse be treated as if they are the ones who are done wrong?

 

1) Adultery is not a crime

2) If it were, when on trial, any aspects relating to PROVOCATION would be looked at, but in the case of adultery we can call it 'context', or 'background'.

3) The criminal justice system gives 'credit' to those that plead guilty, own their actions

4) Rehabilitation is recognised in relation to a crime

 

Seems like one might receive fairer treatment if they stabbed someone than if they attempted to be upfront about their behaviour on this board.

[Fugu]

Responded earlier in this monster thread but haven't seen all the replies sense. I think my attitude about self-confessed cheaters is this:

 

You don't have to like or approve of what cheaters do, and you don't even have to like or respect them as people. You should feel free not to. However, my goal in responding to cheaters is not to unload my emotions on to them -- there's nothing useful about that except for catharsis, and there are more productive ways of doing that. In fact, if I recall my psychological research accurately, unloading more anger isn't really the catharsis we think it is; instead, it actually prolongs the and magnifies the intensity of the negativity that we feel as people who've been hurt. In other words, those who come on here and spew the hatred toward their perceived enemy aren't really hurting their nemeses -- or maybe they are, but in the end, they're mostly hurting themselves. They're hurting themselves by not letting go of their anger and their rage. They're allowing their anger to consume them, to turn them into something that maybe they never were. They turn themselves into the very things that they aim not to be, even those things that they dislike in the cheaters they so despise. In short, when you castigate and disparage cheaters, even for the purpose of just releasing anger...you lose.

 

As for the cheaters themselves, my aim is always to first get them to acknowledge what they're doing, and then to get them to acknowledge that they themselves have put themselves in this position of immorality. I aim to get them to accept what they've done, and to take responsibility for their own actions. You don't have to be a raging, hateful douche bag of a poster to do this either. You simply need to be clear and to the point, and to refuse to accept excuses. You need to be their mirror. That is the best thing we can provide as a community of married or formerly married people. Don't be their judge, jailer, and executioner; be their mirror. Show them their true face. Let them see who they really are. Many times, that is often what they need.

 

And then, encourage a change in behavior. Encourage them to take small steps first, then larger ones later. Sometimes people do need to be shocked into action, but many times, the recovery process itself involves small steps back to becoming who they once were. Again, it doesn't mean you have to coddle them, or to be sensitive to them. You can be their mirror and you don't have to be sweet about it. But shouting them down and cursing their existence is only going to drive them away. I don't want to drive them away with the problem not having been resolved. I would try to be the poster who can help them accept that what they've done is really, really wrong, and that no matter what their grievances are, they have to accept this without any qualifications. And then they must act to correct themselves and hopefully, improve and preserve what is left of their marriage, or at the very least, to end their marriage on respectful terms so that the emotional damage can be minimized for everyone involved.

[Woggle]

1) Adultery is not a crime

2) If it were, when on trial, any aspects relating to PROVOCATION would be looked at, but in the case of adultery we can call it 'context', or 'background'.

3) The criminal justice system gives 'credit' to those that plead guilty, own their actions

4) Rehabilitation is recognised in relation to a crime

 

Seems like one might receive fairer treatment if they stabbed someone than if they attempted to be upfront about their behaviour on this board.

 

I don't mean literally stabbing somebody with a knife. I mean betraying their friends and family who trust them for their own selfish desires. If I came on here and talked about how I screwed my friend over and felt no remorse nobody would look at me as the victim but somehow screwing over the person you made vows to can get a person victim status.

 

If a person just craps all over somebody that trusts them with no remorse why should they get sympathy?

[Steadfast]

 

1) Adultery is not a crime

 

 

Actually, it is illegal in something like 26 states in the USA; or slightly more than half. Other states have a modified code that allows victims to sue either the spouse, affair partner or both for 'Alienation of Affections'.