OldOnTheInside Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 LOL...that question about circular discussions applies to a couple of hundred of us posters here on LS! Myself included, of course. Valid point...and one that probably pertains to a vast majority of us here on this site. Mmhmm... 33 pages and nobody has really learnt anything. What can I say? It's a bit depressing. Link to post Share on other sites
Owl Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I don't think it's a matter of learning. I think that most of the "long term" posters here have their beliefs pretty much set. Nothing to "learn" for most that have been here a while. JMK has his beliefs, CIK hers, Anne hers, WN has his, and I have mine. Realistically...I'm sure we all know we're not going to agree on every point. Guess the only thing to "learn" is to agree to disagree. But even that's only short term...LOL! Link to post Share on other sites
confusedinkansas Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I don't think it's a matter of learning. I think that most of the "long term" posters here have their beliefs pretty much set. Nothing to "learn" for most that have been here a while. JMK has his beliefs, CIK hers, Anne hers, WN has his, and I have mine. Realistically...I'm sure we all know we're not going to agree on every point. Guess the only thing to "learn" is to agree to disagree. But even that's only short term...LOL! This is very true Owl. We won't all agree & that's OK. It's what makes the world-go-round. We all bring to the table our own personal experiences. Since we aren't all alike we post what we know, someone else posts what they know & the person that has come here for help takes what applies to their scenario. I just think it's too bad that someone that's had an affair can't come here for actual help without SOME tearing them down. People make mistakes. We need to learn from them & be able to pick ourselves up & move on with life. Coming here for input from someone that's been there (for me) helped. Those that have cheated are not bad people. They / We've done a bad thing - doesn't mean we have to carry it around with us for the rest of our lives. Doesn't mean that our spouses have the right (if they've chosen to stay with us) to tear us down for the rest of our lives either. That's where this forum comes into play. People like me that have been in their shoes tell them that the pain won't last forever. ETC. AND.... The WS explains their side. (Since there are 2 sides to every coin) It would just (I believe) be more productive if the/some WS's would not treat the OP as if they are their spouse. Tearing them up at every chance. ....& don't get me started on - What if the cheater comes here for help on another matter........Well, those that have bashed them from the beginning ALWAYS feel it's necessary to bring the affair back into play. Even if the new problem has nothing to do with the affair..........But that's another thread. Link to post Share on other sites
Memphis Raines Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 This is very true Owl. We won't all agree & that's OK. It's what makes the world-go-round. We all bring to the table our own personal experiences. Since we aren't all alike we post what we know, someone else posts what they know & the person that has come here for help takes what applies to their scenario. I just think it's too bad that someone that's had an affair can't come here for actual help without SOME tearing them down. Look at JaneyAmazed for example. I think she is great! She is the example of someone that deserves "help". She took responsibility, doesn't blame her husband for her choice to cheat, and is genuinely interested in making it right (if such a thing is possible) most other cheaters that come here, like to justify why they cheated, focus too much on their affair partner, and not enough on their betrayed spouse, therefore not really looking for any help. those types just want to know how long they have to put up with being in the dog house and don't think they should have to bend over backwards to right their wrongs. People make mistakes. cheating isn't a mistake. bad choice perhaps, but a mistake, no. calling it a mistake is an attempt to downplay the affairs as if it wasn't really a bad thing they did. Those that have cheated are not bad people. a very few rare people that have cheated are good people. the rest aren't They / We've done a bad thing - doesn't mean we have to carry it around with us for the rest of our lives. i agree, so long as you aren't blaming anyone else for your choices to cheat and put the affair partners completely in the past. but most, as you have demonstrated in past threads, do not want to leave their APs a void memory. you even said yourself, you have fondness of your affair. so you can carry around the fondness, but at the same time don't want to carry around any shame for it at the same time:confused: Doesn't mean that our spouses have the right (if they've chosen to stay with us) to tear us down for the rest of our lives either. I agree. but you would have a BS just put up with someone that reminisces with fondness of the affair. double standard there Link to post Share on other sites
reboot Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 a very few rare people that have cheated are good people. the rest aren't I agree with most of what you say, but this simply isn't true. Cheating in and of itself doesn't make someone a bad person. And not cheating doesn't make someone a good person. Murderers, thieves, child molesters, animal abusers, etc.... bad people. Hitler was a bad person whether he was faithful or not. Cheaters have a character flaw to be sure, but that doesn't make them evil. We could use a few less hard lines around here. All of us are just sadly human, muddling along trying to get through life. Let go of the hate, it just drags you down. Link to post Share on other sites
confusedinkansas Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 so you can carry around the fondness, but at the same time don't want to carry around any shame for it at the same time:confused: Fondness in a past tense. I rarely speak of the AP. It's a rare occasion when I even think of him. Even when posting here I'm thinking, posting & speaking of things in the NOW. Not in the past. I agree with most of what you say, but this simply isn't true. Cheating in and of itself doesn't make someone a bad person. And not cheating doesn't make someone a good person. Murderers, thieves, child molesters, animal abusers, etc.... bad people. Hitler was a bad person whether he was faithful or not. Excellent point. Wish I'd have thought of it myself. Cheaters have a character flaw to be sure Perhaps HAVE at the time of the affair. HAD....when the affair is over, in the past - never to return & you're rebuilding your life. (With or without your spouse) Link to post Share on other sites
What_Next Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I just think it's too bad that someone that's had an affair can't come here for actual help without SOME tearing them down. On this point, cheaters are ALWAYS going to get SOME tearing down on this site. Whether it's needed or not isn't mine to judge. We will have to agree to dis-agree on some points for sure as you and I have massively different opinions on this matter. However, we should be able to do that in a civil manner. Link to post Share on other sites
reboot Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Obviously my definition of "evil" is very different from others. Link to post Share on other sites
Memphis Raines Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Perhaps with this particular poster I may have been a little insensitive. leave out the words "perhaps", "may", and "a little" Link to post Share on other sites
Memphis Raines Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 I agree with most of what you say, but this simply isn't true. Cheating in and of itself doesn't make someone a bad person. you right. it makes them great people! Link to post Share on other sites
Memphis Raines Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Perhaps HAVE at the time of the affair. no, you still have the flaw, its evident in the way you make excuses for cheaters. Link to post Share on other sites
reboot Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 you right. it makes them great people! Just for the record, I was the one cheated on. Even at the time my guts were a big steaming pile on the floor I never thought of her as "evil". The world is not black and white. Link to post Share on other sites
confusedinkansas Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 no, you still have the flaw, its evident in the way you make excuses for cheaters. Wow - perhaps I've missed something along the way - I don't ever recall making excuses for cheaters........... But I guess you know best. Link to post Share on other sites
Memphis Raines Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Wow - perhaps I've missed something along the way - I don't ever recall making excuses for cheaters........... but of course you don't Link to post Share on other sites
reboot Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 you don't feel the amount of concious deception that goes on daily with a cheater is evil? Like I already said, our definition of "evil" is obviously very different. Link to post Share on other sites
reboot Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 The only part of that that could be construed to apply to cheating would be the "morally wrong or bad; immoral;" part. But then you have to decide, by whose moral standards? Different countries, different cultures, different religions, all have different ideas as to what is "moral". What makes you right and others wrong? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 The only part of that that could be construed to apply to cheating would be the "morally wrong or bad; immoral;" part. But then you have to decide, by whose moral standards? Different countries, different cultures, different religions, all have different ideas as to what is "moral". What makes you right and others wrong? Is it not wrong to lie in some countries? Link to post Share on other sites
reboot Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Is it not wrong to lie in some countries? Do you consider anyone who lies to be evil? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Do you consider anyone who lies to be evil? Depends on what they're lying about; how long they carry on the falsehoods and to what degree; is anyone being hurt, emotionally or physically, by the lying. And, with the exception of open relationships, we ALL know that people are hurt emotionally (and even sometimes physically) by their partner f'ing around behind their back. Link to post Share on other sites
confusedinkansas Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 but of course you don't Let me rephrase - I have never made any excuses for cheaters. I have not cheered them on I have not condoned what they are doing or did. I don't condone what I did. I know what I did wasn't the right way to handle a bad situation so why would I think it's ok for anyone else. Typical.....Reading between the lines. Thanks Memphis you've proved my point here. Link to post Share on other sites
reboot Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Depends on what they're lying about; how long they carry on the falsehoods and to what degree; is anyone being hurt, emotionally or physically, by the lying. And, with the exception of open relationships, we ALL know that people are hurt emotionally (and even sometimes physically) by their partner f'ing around behind their back. People get hurt by a lot of things in this life, all the time. That doesn't mean the people that hurt them are automatically evil people. Reading between the lines, I see a lot of people posting here that are full of rage and hatred. That's no way to go through life. Hey, my world got turned upside down and inside out, but at some point you just have to pick up the pieces and move on. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 People get hurt by a lot of things in this life, all the time. That doesn't mean the people that hurt them are automatically evil people. Reading between the lines, I see a lot of people posting here that are full of rage and hatred. That's no way to go through life. Hey, my world got turned upside down and inside out, but at some point you just have to pick up the pieces and move on. I know, I know, and if you'll note, I'm one of the people who has been trying to defend people in this thread. It depends on their attitude though. I've seen some who try to rationalize their A and blame their spouse (that'll set you up for it to happen again for sure), and even talk about wanting to remain friends with their AP. It's about intent for me. Let's say I have an acquaintance who says, "Yeah, that looks wonderful on you!" just so you can go out wearing something hideous and she can make fun of you behind your back. Bad intentions. Then there's the person who'll tell you your haircut looks fine even though it doesn't because what's done is done. You can't UNcut your hair, and why make you feel worse now that you can't really do anything about it? Good intentions. Link to post Share on other sites
Memphis Raines Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Let me rephrase - I have never made any excuses for cheaters. yes, you did. you have said time and time again that the BS's, in the threads in question, caused the WS to stray. I have not cheered them on no, you just defend them I don't condone what I did. I know what I did wasn't the right way to handle a bad situation so why would I think it's ok for anyone else. yet you told this forum you wouldn't have changed a thing about having the affair. Typical.....Reading between the lines. Thanks Memphis you've proved my point here. nope, no reading between lines. your own words out you for what you are. Link to post Share on other sites
confusedinkansas Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 yes, you did. you have said time and time again that the BS's, in the threads in question, caused the WS to stray. Nope - (I'll personalize this) HE was a contributing factor to what happened in the marriage that lead to the affair. no, you just defend them Nope - Have never defended the actions of a cheater. I just try to help them see that they're not the horrible creatures some here make them out to be. yet you told this forum you wouldn't have changed a thing about having the affair. Exactly. Because what's done is done. Can't change it. You have to learn from what happened & make things better, not wallow in the past & move towards a better future Which in my situation is what's happened. We'll never agree. That's quite obvious. But please stop twisting my words to suit what you believe to be the truth. Link to post Share on other sites
nyrias Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 you don't feel the amount of concious deception that goes on daily with a cheater is evil? No more or less than the deception going on in a court room, in the board room, and in the US congress. Plus, deception is not even illegal, in general (there are specific instances it is though). For example, 4th amendment guarantee my right not to reveal everything to the authorities. While cheating is wrong, there are a lot of things WORSE than cheating. For example, what Madoff has done. He harmed many more people & destroy more lives than an average A can do. If you call everything wrong under the sun evil, the word loses its special meaning. Link to post Share on other sites
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