How we treat cheaters on this board

[John Michael Kane]

I don't know if she's justifying it.

 

All cheaters do.

 

In fact, I get the sense she really doesn't care what you think or how you feel about it.

 

Oh really? If that was the case she wouldn't be here now trying to justify cheating to many of the posters that posted on this thread.

[nyrias]

Obviously they should seek professional help.

 

But what do you think pretty much any qualified therapist is going to tell a cheater? Comptent therapists tell them they need to stop cheating, and resolve their marital relationship one way or the other. Competent therapy is all about a person developing honesty with themselves and with other people in their lives. Cheating is inherently dishonest, results in all kinds of other dysfunctions oftentimes, and therefore professionals as a whole won't endorse that behavior.

 

There are some issues related to cheating upon which there is a more heterogenous viewpoint--whether or not and how much to disclose to the betrayed spouse, for example--but you are really not going to find very many if any therapists who will actively encourage a cheater, to continue to cheat.

 

So that's an answer that cheaters who wish to continue cheating just don't want to hear. They may go to therapy for a little while but they don't take it seriously because it doesn't generally feed their cheating. At best if the therapist is very wishy washy and wants to keep the client the therapist will try to blame the betrayed spouse for the marital problems. But even those therapists don't typically ENDORSE cheating, at best, they will fail to hold the cheater accountable for it. They will still regard the cheating as dysfunctional, but will blame the betrayed spouse for it. They will tend to tell the cheater to just leave the marriage for the other person. That's not very good for the betrayed spouse, perhaps, but it isn't actually an endorsement of the cheating behavior, itself.

 

My post is not about endorsing cheating. It is about how to help them without belittling them.

 

Competent therapists would not call them "scum", "cheaters" and so on to their face. They will council the ending of cheating with neutral language. They would not intentionally trying to provoke shame, and other kind of negative feelings.

 

Competent therapist would talk about how important honesty is, and how the WS should remedy the situation with disclosure. They would be spending endless hours to tell them how terrible they are, and they should not have done it in the first place.

 

That is the difference between professional help, and what I see the attitudes of *some* (but obviously not all) poster her. I feel that many people are trying to make the cheaters feel bad to exact revenge on the pain they have suffered.

 

A professional counselor would NEVER have that as a goal.

[Mimolicious]

Very well put...not only that!! Put the OP divorced their own ws because of his cheating...I think this thread is truly hilarious to begin with. Oh but right..she has mentioned that she did things in the marriage that led up to his cheating?????

 

Seriously...everyone has probs in life in general..at work, in a marriage..kids and so on. Doesn't validate or justify the cheating...period! Its all about choices, character and lack of tons of crap in that person..thats it! They were selfish enough to cheat,...so why should we have sympathy for them? Give me a break and get real!

 

But has ANYONE noticed that HARDLY EVER 'cheating' is the solution to the issues??????????? On the contrary! What happens after the jump? People are worse than when they started and totally caught up. No thanks! It was hard enough being M, running a household and dealing with everyday issues, then on top of that the extra bullshyte that an A brought into the picture. It fixed NOTHING but it damaged EVERYTHING.

 

Who complicates their lives like this? (obviously many many people!?)

[Mimolicious]

My post is not about endorsing cheating. It is about how to help them without belittling them.

 

Competent therapists would not call them "scum", "cheaters" and so on to their face. They will council the ending of cheating with neutral language. They would not intentionally trying to provoke shame, and other kind of negative feelings.

 

Competent therapist would talk about how important honesty is, and how the WS should remedy the situation with disclosure. They would be spending endless hours to tell them how terrible they are, and they should not have done it in the first place.

 

That is the difference between professional help, and what I see the attitudes of *some* (but obviously not all) poster her. I feel that many people are trying to make the cheaters feel bad to exact revenge on the pain they have suffered.

 

A professional counselor would NEVER have that as a goal.

 

Nyrias- you do understand that this site is not one of/for professional help though. Are you expecting everyone here to be a therapist-like?

This is not Dr. Phils site. This is a public forum where you are going to find a bit of everything. I don't recall anyone here claiming to be professional in the psychology of human behavior field. (Maybe one or two and they are not active posters).

 

I mean, people really take this place as serious as they would take a professional therapist? Now, THAT'S a problem.

 

If so, then start paying up those co-payments!

[bentnotbroken]

My post is not about endorsing cheating. It is about how to help them without belittling them.

 

Competent therapists would not call them "scum", "cheaters" and so on to their face. They will council the ending of cheating with neutral language. They would not intentionally trying to provoke shame, and other kind of negative feelings.

 

Competent therapist would talk about how important honesty is, and how the WS should remedy the situation with disclosure. They would be spending endless hours to tell them how terrible they are, and they should not have done it in the first place.

 

That is the difference between professional help, and what I see the attitudes of *some* (but obviously not all) poster her. I feel that many people are trying to make the cheaters feel bad to exact revenge on the pain they have suffered.

 

A professional counselor would NEVER have that as a goal.

 

 

I agree with you and the bolded words are what stick out to me. Professional vs. public forum where anyone with a keyboard and access can comment. It has always amazed me that the assumption that no one who hasn't actually cheated, has not been in the position, with the opportunity and the choice to make. Does not make one better than the other, but certainly making some choices better (for all involved )than others.

 

Professionals are there for a reason. They should be sought out to help save a marriage or end it with as little turmoil as possible. The expectation that people on here(without professional training)should behave the way a counselor might is like expecting the weekend warrior to play sports on a professional level.

[bentnotbroken]

Nyrias- you do understand that this site is not one of/for professional help though. Are you expecting everyone here to be a therapist-like?

This is not Dr. Phils site. This is a public forum where you are going to find a bit of everything. I don't recall anyone here claiming to be professional in the psychology of human behavior field. (Maybe one or two and they are not active posters).

 

I mean, people really take this place as serious as they would take a professional therapist? Now, THAT'S a problem.

 

If so, then start paying up those co-payments!

 

 

I see we cross posted the same sentiment

[nyrias]

Nyrias- you do understand that this site is not one of/for professional help though. Are you expecting everyone here to be a therapist-like?

This is not Dr. Phils site. This is a public forum where you are going to find a bit of everything. I don't recall anyone here claiming to be professional in the psychology of human behavior field. (Maybe one or two and they are not active posters).

 

I mean, people really take this place as serious as they would take a professional therapist? Now, THAT'S a problem.

 

If so, then start paying up those co-payments!

 

Sure. But people are dispensing advice here left and right.

 

I don't know how seriously people are taking advice on this site, but I also don't see any issue (and in fact, i see it as a benefit) to have an open discussion about what is going on here.

 

And whether advice here are generally sound.

 

Last, this thread is about how to treat cheaters and I do think that there are better ways to give them advice (for how to end cheating, and how to be honest), than many of the "you-are-scum-u-should-die" posts here.

 

And since this is an internet forum, i don't see a problem to express that opinion here.

[donnamaybe]

Sure. But people are dispensing advice here left and right.

And why would someone come to a forum such as this if they didn't expect to read the opinions of others?

 

As I said previously, I haven't seen ANY threads where someone who was currently cheating and asking for advice to either get their M back in order OR to initiate D proceedings getting slammed (at least not male cheaters - there was a gal recently who was getting lit into by a few "men" on this forum). I have, however, seen a few threads on here started by cheaters who basically have an "I don't care what you think. I'm a cheater, and I like it that way. I lie constantly to those in my life who should be able to trust me above all others, but tough. attitude" THOSE are the people getting taken to task, and with good reason.

[Taramere]

Professionals are there for a reason. They should be sought out to help save a marriage or end it with as little turmoil as possible. The expectation that people on here(without professional training)should behave the way a counselor might is like expecting the weekend warrior to play sports on a professional level.

 

I don't think a person need be a professional psychologist or counsellor to develop certain skills in communicating with others. Let's say A cheats, B tells them that they must be a sociopath for cheating, and A responds "I'm not a saint...it doesn't mean I'm a sociopath."

 

You don't need to be a saint to not cheat. However by the same token, you don't need to be a psychotherapist to communicate with others in ways that don't involve endless shaming, berating and haranguing. A degree in psychology shouldn't be necessary for people to restrain themselves from relentless bullying of people who are putting their personal stuff out there.

 

I should emphasise that I'm not directing that in any way at you BNB. It's just that I've seen a couple of new posters lately who seem to be continually using this board, and some of the posters on it, as punchbags. Which isn't really in the spirit of this board's stated aims.

[betterdeal]

There's the danger of creating a new church of therapy. Whilst accreditation may be a sign of quality, it is not surety. And lack of qualification didn't make Einstein any lesser of a scientist. Also, many people cannot afford a therapist or are simply uncomfortable with formalising their development by going pro. There are many reasons to turn to the Internet. It's free and easy, for a start, and you are free and it's easy to ignore anyone person whose personal triggers or neurosis are activated by your story.

 

As an aside, I doubt any decent therapist would urge any decision by any client, except in significantly dangerous situations. Intervention is a big step and not one taken lightly.

[bentnotbroken]

I don't think a person need be a professional psychologist or counsellor to develop certain skills in communicating with others. Let's say A cheats, B tells them that they must be a sociopath for cheating, and A responds "I'm not a saint...it doesn't mean I'm a sociopath."

 

You don't need to be a saint to not cheat. However by the same token, you don't need to be a psychotherapist to communicate with others in ways that don't involve endless shaming, berating and haranguing. A degree in psychology shouldn't be necessary for people to restrain themselves from relentless bullying of people who are putting their personal stuff out there.

 

I should emphasise that I'm not directing that in any way at you BNB. It's just that I've seen a couple of new posters lately who seem to be continually using this board, and some of the posters on it, as punchbags. Which isn't really in the spirit of this board's stated aims.

 

 

You post very respectfully and I appreciate your comments. While I may understand one does not need to be professional to talk with others (without punching someone out)I do appreciate that the backgrounds of others was not my background. Whatever the circumstances of their upbringing, some have extreme pain that manifests itself as anger. I wish we all would seek help for our issues(we all have something that isn't quite where we want it to be) not everyone does. I know that we learn to communicate through our past experiences. Some people can communicate in a way that greater society respects and accepts, others can't or won't.

 

I also find the use of psychopath, sociopath and any other "pathy" overused and slapped on anything that one does not like. Sometimes people are just who they are without it being a mental illness. As one poster stated on thread, they cheated because they could. It is what it is.

[PortuguesePrincess80]

And why would someone come to a forum such as this if they didn't expect to read the opinions of others?

 

As I said previously, I haven't seen ANY threads where someone who was currently cheating and asking for advice to either get their M back in order OR to initiate D proceedings getting slammed (at least not male cheaters - there was a gal recently who was getting lit into by a few "men" on this forum). I have, however, seen a few threads on here started by cheaters who basically have an "I don't care what you think. I'm a cheater, and I like it that way. I lie constantly to those in my life who should be able to trust me above all others, but tough. attitude" THOSE are the people getting taken to task, and with good reason.

 

 

Amen sista! Want advice from a therapist...by all means go ahead. But most of the cheaters that come on here (an internet forum) should expect critism..ESPECIALLY from a betrayed spouses view!

[tami-chan]

You're trying to justify it now, which shows your immaturity.

 

how am I justifying it?

[Mimolicious]

Sure. But people are dispensing advice here left and right.

 

I don't know how seriously people are taking advice on this site, but I also don't see any issue (and in fact, i see it as a benefit) to have an open discussion about what is going on here.

 

And whether advice here are generally sound.

 

Last, this thread is about how to treat cheaters and I do think that there are better ways to give them advice (for how to end cheating, and how to be honest), than many of the "you-are-scum-u-should-die" posts here.

 

And since this is an internet forum, i don't see a problem to express that opinion here.

 

Have you ever sat in therapy? How much of your therapist yap is advice? If any... I got a suggestion, get rid of him/her.

 

Sounds like you are confusing "advice" with "therapy".

 

Problems are not fixed or solved by a therapist, but evolved and dissolved in conversations. Advice can be useful and lovely. But therapy and advice are not the same. Collaborative Therapy offers us the opportunity to contribute our own expertise to conversations, open up new meanings and possibilities and find our own ways forward when advice is not enough.

 

I don't pay my therapist to advice me on what to do with my life. BAd enought I have other people that say how my hair goes, what I wear, etc...LOL! My therapist helps me get to the core of the "why's" and "how's". Helps me find the meaning of many things that are the source of some of my issues. It would be kind of pointless to be her robot and do as she advices to do.

[jthorne]

I don't pay my therapist to advice me on what to do with my life. BAd enought I have other people that say how my hair goes, what I wear, etc...LOL! .

FTR, I think your hair is fabulous, but I sure hope you have some kickazz shoes to go with that thing on your face.

[Mimolicious]

There's the danger of creating a new church of therapy. Whilst accreditation may be a sign of quality, it is not surety. And lack of qualification didn't make Einstein any lesser of a scientist. Also, many people cannot afford a therapist or are simply uncomfortable with formalising their development by going pro. There are many reasons to turn to the Internet. It's free and easy, for a start, and you are free and it's easy to ignore anyone person whose personal triggers or neurosis are activated by your story.

 

As an aside, I doubt any decent therapist would urge any decision by any client, except in significantly dangerous situations. Intervention is a big step and not one taken lightly.

 

This is true BUT there are more reputable and better qualified places on the net for it. Seriously, LS is not a place for therapy. It's merely a community. People share experiences and concern, not come to get rehab. If they do, then ...

[Mimolicious]

FTR, I think your hair is fabulous, but I sure hope you have some kickazz shoes to go with that thing on your face.

 

 

YOU KNOW THIS!

Did you see my gold-tooth?! HOLLA! I'm a knock-out! Just like MIKE. BWHAHAHA! Ok, let me stop taking this off-track...

[confusedinkansas]

Sounds like a jab at BS'S but anyhoooooooo.....why don't YOU then explain what you "think" the truth is??????

 

It's not a jab at BS's - It's a fact.

 

Many - myself included have tried to explain the truth. Then we are slammed that we're trying to justify our behavior.

It's a vicious circle. BUT it does lead to some really good conversation.

 

I agree with the therapy part said here at the end. I'd never come here as a means of therapy. It's a discussion forum - FAR FROM therapy.

[tami-chan]

And why would someone come to a forum such as this if they didn't expect to read the opinions of others?

 

As I said previously, I haven't seen ANY threads where someone who was currently cheating and asking for advice to either get their M back in order OR to initiate D proceedings getting slammed (at least not male cheaters - there was a gal recently who was getting lit into by a few "men" on this forum). I have, however, seen a few threads on here started by cheaters who basically have an "I don't care what you think. I'm a cheater, and I like it that way. I lie constantly to those in my life who should be able to trust me above all others, but tough. attitude" THOSE are the people getting taken to task, and with good reason.

 

That's not true, Donna. You know as well as I do that when a cheater comes to the board professing love for the affair partner and seeking help (or opinions from people who have gone through the same) how to navigate the situation, they get slammed. And when that happens, the tendency is for the poster to get defensive.

 

So, ideally, if we should ask why we choose to respond to posts without being on topic. For example, if the poster asks "can anybody here give me how to tell my wife I have a mistress and want out of the marriage"? Many would answer "Why are you cheating?", "You are a scum for betraying you wife", etc.etc. Those are non-response responses. We do that primarily because, imho, many of us think that is it our mission to make the person see what a scum he is. It is arrogant. But it is allowed.

[tami-chan]

It's not a jab at BS's - It's a fact.

 

Many - myself included have tried to explain the truth. Then we are slammed that we're trying to justify our behavior.

It's a vicious circle. BUT it does lead to some really good conversation.

 

I agree with the therapy part said here at the end. I'd never come here as a means of therapy. It's a discussion forum - FAR FROM therapy.

 

LOL...so true. Look what one poster said to me. I am pretty sure he does not know my story and yet, he takes it upon himself to tell my I am justifying my actions. There is no justification to me action, I did it and that's all there is to it. Are their betrayed spouses in my story? No, not really. That is why I do not have all these drama that accompanies affairs. Yet, it did not stop the poster from saying what he had to say to slam me. Case in point !

[donnamaybe]

That's not true, Donna. You know as well as I do that when a cheater comes to the board professing love for the affair partner and seeking help (or opinions from people who have gone through the same) how to navigate the situation, they get slammed. And when that happens, the tendency is for the poster to get defensive.

 

So, ideally, if we should ask why we choose to respond to posts without being on topic. For example, if the poster asks "can anybody here give me how to tell my wife I have a mistress and want out of the marriage"? Many would answer "Why are you cheating?", "You are a scum for betraying you wife", etc.etc. Those are non-response responses. We do that primarily because, imho, many of us think that is it our mission to make the person see what a scum he is. It is arrogant. But it is allowed.

The thing is, I don't see many of those kind of threads where a cheater is trying to end the cheating. There was one recently by a gal (is it okay to say her name here? ) who was slammed pretty hard post-affair. She was discussing her and her H reconciling. Interestingly, it seems only "men" were slamming her. I saw one awhile back by a man who was trying to figure out how to get rid of his OW and the current OW on the board were slamming HIM pretty hard. It may, at times, come down to each person's particularly perspective of the moment given their own circumstances.

 

I agree that if someone is in an A situation and are looking for ANY way to stop the lying, that's a good thing, and they should get props for wanting to make everything right, regardless which direction they are planning on heading. Whether they want to stay in the M or leave it, at LEAST they are trying to STOP THE LYING. IMO, that's ALWAYS a good thing.

[freestyle]

For me, it depends on the individual situation.

If it's a WS trying to continue an affair, I will make it clear that I abhor cheating and deception---but rather than dropping a nuke on them instantly, I will make an attempt to appeal to their conscience.I assume that it's a given that their behavior is deplorable. I don't see the point in chanting a mantra of "you're a scumbag" repeatedly.....

 

Because I don't believe that will be heard.(I'm hoping to get through to this poster's conscience, right?)

 

Instead I'll write out a heartfelt, itemized list of everything of a BS experiences when the affair is discovered.Often times, in the thick of the affair fog, the WS has managed to avoid considering the consequences and fallout of their behavior. I try to shine a spotlight on that, and remind them.I don't believe I'm coddling at all---I try to be very matter-of-fact.

When I list the consequences, I actually AM calling them a scumbag for what they're doing---

 

I'm just using different words. Words that might actually sink in. Words that might get results.Because I'm hoping for results.I'm hoping to turn someone from a destructive path.And I hope to be heard.....

 

(What soaks in better-- a torrent/ deluge, or a steady rain? If you're trying to plant a seed, the soil needs to be receptive.)

So, IMO--I don't believe the broken record mantras of "You're a scumbag" do anything helpful---I believe they're more likely to make a WS close their ears.

 

I won't presume to tell anyone else how to post, (provided they stay within T.O.S.)but I will question whether or not some methods are more effective in getting results than others.

 

If the WS in the case shows no capacity for remorse after I try to appeal to their conscience--I just conclude that I'm wasting my time & move on to someone who may be receptive.If anyone is actually so crass as to gloat over their cheating,(there's been a few ) I mentally put them in the "Lost Cause" bin.

 

When it's a case of a WS trying to extract themselves from an affair, or one who has ended an affair, and is trying to renconcile with their BS---I also don't see any point in beating them up. Often times they're beating themselves up severely enough, yet I have seen posters dogpile on them mercilessly. The OP can write pages of self-effacing, self-recriminating posts, and profess that they're willing to do backflips naked through flaming hoops over a pit of scorpions to save their marriage---and there are some posters that will still bash them.

 

Again, I won't tell anyone how to post, but I WILL ask those posters--

are you trying to help the OP......or are you trying to help yourself by venting on them?

 

What's the end result that you're seeking?

[nyrias]

 

Again, I won't tell anyone how to post, but I WILL ask those posters--

are you trying to help the OP......or are you trying to help yourself by venting on them?

 

What's the end result that you're seeking?

 

Well said (with most of the post not quoted).

 

However, posters are under no obligation to help anyone over the internet. I would argue that there are those here just to vent. That is perfectly ok, as long as one understand that, and not take their venting posts as advice.

 

Similar, you also cannot people coming here to gloat about their affairs. The resulting flame war, however, would be illustrious to people who study online social interactions.

[Spark1111]

Well said (with most of the post not quoted).

 

However, posters are under no obligation to help anyone over the internet. I would argue that there are those here just to vent. That is perfectly ok, as long as one understand that, and not take their venting posts as advice.

 

Similar, you also cannot people coming here to gloat about their affairs. The resulting flame war, however, would be illustrious to people who study online social interactions.

 

And it is NO DIFFERENT that a remorseful WS posting on the OW/OM forum that thier affair was the worst decision they ever made in their life, their AP is scum, and how do they beg their BS back?

 

If one is seeking advice for their particular situation, they should be cognizant of WHAT forum they are posting on.

 

It will not make them immune to the slings and arrows of dissenting opinions but it would be kinder.

 

It would be like posting at TOW site about how off the charts reconciliation sex is, or the OW is a big bore in the bedroom compared to me.

 

I mean why flame and insight? Some thought should be given to which site and forum you post in.

[nyrias]

I mean why flame and insight? Some thought should be given to which site and forum you post in.

 

Don't you think seeking conflict is part human nature?

 

Flames are quite common on the internet. I am quite sure there are those who actively seeking them out.