How well should you know a girl before asking her out?

[chris58]

Hi everyone,

 

(You might remember me from the "absolutely-no-experience-dating" thread a couple of weeks ago; there might be useful background info about me in the first post there if you haven't seen it. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t35020/)

 

It seems I have a pretty severe misconception that going out anywhere alone with a girl (I'm in my early 20s and have never done this), in any circumstances whatsoever, is a "big deal". People suggested (thank you!) that I "start out slow" and "ask someone for coffee or dessert or lunch or go to a local event some Saturday day", or "make a practice of asking girls out for cappuccino, or to people watch at cafes, or to hike or birdwatch or ride bikes".

 

My question (finally) after thinking about this is:

 

How well am I meant to know these girls before I might do that? (Or perhaps just as useful: How well do most people know the girls they ask out?) Are we talking about girls I meet one day and otherwise might never see again, girls who are already friends, girls who are already acquaintances but I don't really know very well, or what?

 

I think perhaps the reason that at the moment going anywhere alone with a girl seems like a "momentous event" could be that, well, a few years ago I did ask a girl out (and she said no obviously; not unkindly but very clearly) and since then we have both become part of the one social group, so we see each other quite often. We'd probably say that we're "friends" but we don't really mean it; I can hardly talk to her. Even after a few years, I still find it terribly uncomfortable. I am terrified of this happening again.

 

So maybe I had that all wrong; maybe it's not a great idea to ask a girl out who you're likely to stay in contact with afterwards?

 

If all the suggestions were referring more to girls who, if they say no, I'll be able to keep out of the way of afterwards ... that seems much more manageable. The idea of rejection itself doesn't worry me that much, but having to face up to the girl in the future would be a different story.

 

(BTW, I know I'm repeating this from my last post on the other thread, sorry for that, but it seems that last post didn't really get noticed; my mistake, I should probably have put it in a new thread anyway.)

 

Thank you for reading. As I said before, no advice you can give is too obvious for me.

[Papillon]

You're approaching it all wrong, fella. Relationships are about friendship, first and foremost. If you're afraid of creating an uncomfortable atmosphere if your attentions are unreciprocated, then you are expecting the wrong things from the relationship. If you like someone now, you should like them regardless of whether they like you in that way in turn.

 

You should only ever expect friendship, nothing more, nothing less. The rest sorts itself out.

[chris58]

Originally posted by Papillon

You should only ever expect friendship, nothing more, nothing less. The rest sorts itself out.

 

Really? I have to admit I'm confused then. :-(

 

What about all that talk about not becoming a girl's "buddy" because then it's "too late" and she can only ever see you as a friend?

 

If you like someone now, you should like them regardless of whether they like you in that way in turn.

 

About the girl who did reject me, I do still like her, I feel exactly the same way no matter how she feels about me ... but I still feel awkward around her.

 

Very sorry if I come across as being a bit argumentative or perverse, I'm not trying to be; I just really am very very confused.

 

Thanks.

[Papillon]

Argumentative or perverse? Not at all. I think you're sweet and honest.

 

Let me tell you something. All that talk about "buddy first" ruining your chances, is absolute horseshayt.

 

Relationships are built on friendship and respect, not passion. Too many people have whirlwind romances, knock each others feet out, etc, but when the passion cools down (which it always does, it's a natural law), they realise that the other person is a stranger, and not a friend.

 

If you're good enough to be someone's friend, then, HELL, you've got 90% of the battle won! The rest is just passion. Like I said, you are expecting the wrong things. If you truly treasure someone, then their friendship and happiness is the most important thing to you. Not the butterflies or the romance. Even if the 5% passion needed from the other person is not there, you still have 90% friendship! That sounds like a bargain to me!

 

You would like to be around them all the time, for who they are, not because they are beautiful or sexy or make you feel good about yourself or give you a hard-on. It's all about giving and not receiving.

 

Besides, like the song goes, women don't need lovers, they need friends. They need someone to listen, to put a different perspective on things. Yeah, you could pretend to listen, while you're actually just lusting, but then that'd be false, and then you don't deserve the friendship.

[chris58]

Originally posted by Papillon

Let me tell you something. All that talk about "buddy first" ruining your chances, is absolute horseshayt.

 

Hmmm OK, well ... (again, without wanting to seem argmentative) ... why do so many people seem to believe this then?

 

Are there any "right ways" or "wrong ways" to be someone's friend first? Are there any types of friendships from which it's hard/impossible to move on to being "something more"?

 

Or is a "relationship" really just *exactly* like friendship but (for lack of a better word) "stronger"?

 

Someone mentioned on another post recently that the difference between a "best friend" and a "boyfriend/girlfriend" was exclusivity ... this would seem to agree with what you're saying, Papillon? In my (extremely) humble opinion though, surely there must be some other difference too, because otherwise, for example, straight males would be no more likely to have girlfriends than boyfriends (if you see what I mean ...)

 

Also, I'm still having trouble getting my head around the idea of asking out a girl who is a friend, and still being able to feel comfortable with her as a friend if she said no. I just get this feeling that once you've brought up the idea of spending time together one-on-one, for no other reason than the fact that you'd enjoy her company (even without calling it a "date" or anything nearly as blatant as that) ... you've sort of crossed a line, and after that things could never be the same.

 

Any thoughts? Thanks for any input.

[Papillon]

As to your first question. People love scapegoats. People would rather have someone or someTHING to blame if things don't go their way, because no-one likes to introspect and consider the role that they are playing, who they are in relation to others.

 

Thus, people love believing the "buddy" thing, because it's easier to blame that than to consider the reality that he/she simply is not suited to the other, or that the other person just doesn't feel that way about them.

[Regulus]

You should only ever expect friendship, nothing more, nothing less.

 

True, if looking for a platonic relationship. If you don't expect anything more than friendship, than that's what you'll get. Don't play the "I'll be her best friend and she'll eventually like me" game. Rarely works...And it will cost you more time and effort in the long run than if you would have asked her out and gotten a simple rejection up front. The time your spending being her friend is costing you the opportunity to be with other woman that see you as more than a friend. I'm not saying ask out absolute strangers.. Get to know someone well enough where they feel comfortable around you and then make your move. The key is to be honest about your intentions and act on them in the beginning...

 

Besides, like the song goes, women don't need lovers, they need friends.

lol... Not my women.

[Papillon]

Originally posted by Regulus

True, if looking for a platonic relationship. If you don't expect anything more than friendship, than that's what you'll get. Don't play the "I'll be her best friend and she'll eventually like me" game. Rarely works...And it will cost you more time and effort in the long run than if you would have asked her out and gotten a simple rejection up front. The time your spending being her friend is costing you the opportunity to be with other woman that see you as more than a friend. I'm not saying ask out absolute strangers.. Get to know someone well enough where they feel comfortable around you and then make your move. The key is to be honest about your intentions and act on them in the beginning...

 

If that's your focus in a relationship, then go for it. Whatever floats your boat. I would like to respectfully submit that your apparent attitude of not attempting to commit to a long term friendship, regardless of whatever else happens, seems rather selfish. If someone is special - surely they are worthy of your attention and dedication, regardless of whether they feel the same way about you.

 

I agree, waiting around forever is unhealthy - but a relationship is not a grocery store where you simple go elsewhere if you do get you own way. A sense of entitlement in love and relationships, is, in my mind, a very dangerous thing.

[chris58]

Originally posted by Regulus

True, if looking for a platonic relationship. If you don't expect anything more than friendship, than that's what you'll get.

 

Sorry for my ignorance, but what does "platonic" mean exactly in this context? Is that what we mean when we say "just friends"?

 

By the way, without wanting to labour the point too much ... if anyone has any ideas about these questions from my previous post, I'd greatly appreciate it:

 

Originally posted by chris58

Are there any "right ways" or "wrong ways" to be someone's friend first? Are there any types of friendships from which it's hard/impossible to move on to being "something more"?

 

Or is a "relationship" really just *exactly* like friendship but (for lack of a better word) "stronger"?

 

Someone mentioned on another post recently that the difference between a "best friend" and a "boyfriend/girlfriend" was exclusivity ... this would seem to agree with what you're saying, Papillon? In my (extremely) humble opinion though, surely there must be some other difference too, because otherwise, for example, straight males would be no more likely to have girlfriends than boyfriends (if you see what I mean ...)

 

(Did I not explain myself clearly enough? It was hard to express ...)

 

Many thanks for your input.

[Papillon]

While it's not strictly correct, a platonic relationship is a relationship that is not based on passion or sexuality. So yes, you could say "just friends". But obviously if one party is passionate about the other then it cannot be a putely platonic relationship. But, yeah - basically that's what it means.

 

Yes - the wrong way to be a friend first is to think that there is a "right way" to make the friendship go further. You cannot force these things. People's emotions change constantly and you never know what will happen. There is absolutely no recipe for success. Just don't be pushy.

[SoleMate]

Are there any "right ways" or "wrong ways" to be someone's friend first? Are there any types of friendships from which it's hard/impossible to move on to being "something more"?

Yes. If you suspect you may ever want something more than "just friends", then make sure you:

 

* don't ever listen to her talk about other guys or her feelings for them (just excuse yourself and leave the room - slight brow furrows are optional)

* don't become her "chore boy" (carrying packages, changing the oil in her car)

* don't be overeager to please

* give her lots of personal attention (special smiles, arm squeezes, etc.), as long as she is reciprocating

* let her know that you've noticed she is a girl

* give her a chance to learn to appreciate your friendship/attention as something valuable and CONDITIONAL

* have conversations about things that touch her heart (dreams, insecurities, what you love about life)

* are a fantastic listener (but only to things that a boyfriend could listen to - NOT talk about other males)

* drop occasional hints (when appropriate) about a future for the two of you

 

Hope that helps.