Do old fashioned (single) men still exist out there?

[Crusoe]

the male demographic here is -exactly- representative of the population at large,

 

Most definitely.

[carhill]

As I alluded to far upthread, I find the dynamics/perspectives I'm reading from the younger men to be, frankly, disheartening. There are shrill voices, to be sure, but I do hear much of the similar pain and frustration I felt during that period of my life, but with no outlet like the internet for it. Old-fashioned men kept their pain, hurt and anger to themselves. They internalized it. I provided the example of my father upthread, a man who internalized the pain and hurt from being abandoned for the rest of his natural life, never speaking of it. Younger men today, or at least a subset of them, are feeling freer to share all aspects of their emotional selves and are finding outlets for that voice, this thread being one of them.

 

IMO, just as I listened to and accepted the voices of women a generation ago as their truth, I hope the OP and other interested readers listen to and accept the opinions voiced here and in other threads as the posters of those opinions truth, and perhaps a wider representation of gender truth in these difficult times.

 

Honestly, I think both genders have it tough these days. Of course, I'd love to dwell on how tough I have it as a man, but IMO fairness dictates, at minimum, acceptance of a perhaps disparate POV.

 

Do I think the majority of males posting in this thread want their women barefoot, pregnant and serving them dinner? No. Are they frustrated with the current state of gender relations and the seeming ambiguity of defined gender roles and expectations? Likely. In my own M, my exW was demonstrably unhappy with any role I sought to fill. In retrospect, she was just unhappy with me, the person, and we're both happier divorced. I still recognize my own frustration with the above dynamic (gender roles/interactions/expectations) but have learned to accept that frustration as valid and not a rule of my life. Life is so much more than this thread, a girlfriend/boyfriend or a spouse. If I could convey any message to a young man today, that would be it. Life is short. Don't waste it.

 

FWIW, I believe most of the male posters in that linked thread were/are older, likely around your age or mine. We generally all change and grow as we age so the opinions and styles reflected in that thread are likely indicative of that process. Many of the posters there were/are married 20-30 years or more, so a very different demographic than some of the single young males posting in this and other similar threads. 'What' might find symmetry, but 'how' is reflective of life experience and, frankly, surviving.

 

OK, the chicken needs more vermouth so I gotta go....... hungry!

[Els]

Most definitely.

 

...Dude, I don't know about you guys, but 99% of the guys I know IRL wouldn't come within 10 miles of a relationship forum.

[carhill]

I would concur; my exW often said LS was 'stupid' and none of my male friends have or would ever attend marriage counseling nor waste their time on a forum like LS, they say. Hey, I asked

 

How much of this is healthy? Unknown. Is our participation a negative reflection upon us as men? What does women's participation here say about them? Many questions.

[Crusoe]

...Dude, I don't know about you guys, but 99% of the guys I know IRL wouldn't come within 10 miles of a relationship forum.

 

But what the fella's say on this site is no different to what the fella's are saying in real life. Some days I hear it at work, some days in the pub, some days on the golf course, other days, when I decide to pop in, I see the same thing here.

 

All different types here, from all walks of life. Professionals, tradesmen, men from the forces, jobless, family men, single men, divorced men, widowed men, tall men, short men, happy men, unhappy men, gay men, straight men, black, white and every colour inbetween men, successful men, not so successful men, some are intelligent, some aren't, some are well travelled, some aren't, some are young, some are old, some are somewhere inbetween.

 

The men here represent the population at large very well. It's just most people tend to stick to their own. The rich man doesn't often socialize with the poor man, the happy don't often hang around with the unhappy, the 20 year old isn't beering it up with the 50 year old, etc. In real life we live small lives, our social circles are small, we only get to see a small part, and we forget the other parts exist. Here, on LS, all those different people come together. Just because LS is the only place we see those different types of people, it doesn't mean those people aren't part of the general population.

 

What amazes me about LS, is that there are so many people from so many walks of life, yet all people do is argue instead of learn.

[Els]

I would concur; my exW often said LS was 'stupid' and none of my male friends have or would ever attend marriage counseling nor waste their time on a forum like LS, they say. Hey, I asked

 

How much of this is healthy? Unknown. Is our participation a negative reflection upon us as men? What does women's participation here say about them? Many questions.

 

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with some of the males who come to LS, and females as well. But the plain fact is that this site, like it or not, attracts people of a certain type. One need only go to the Jungian type threads to see it.. we're full of INFJs, INFPs, etc; the types that are statistically only 2% or 5% of the population are actually 10 or 20% here. The most common types in the population, _STJs, are hardly even seen here.

 

The theories and 'rules' that I have seen here are so completely far out of the norm for the RL societies that I've been in that it's almost comical.

[carhill]

So, would you opine that an old-fashioned man would be unlikely to ever become aware of or participate in a relationship forum? Most of my male friends are of this type, with certain 'opinions' about women and generally married between 25 and 40 years. They define 'old fashioned'. The best comment I recall was 'when that psycho-cologist has been married as long as I have, raised as many kids and grandkids as I have, and put up with the cr@p I've put up with from my wife, then maybe, just maybe I might listen to what s/he has to say.'

 

That about sums it up. So, I crack open another beer and stow the LS'isms for a different audience

[Els]

Oh, no, I was simply refuting Crusoe and his partner's claim that the views of the men here are reflective of the population as a whole.

 

Now that you mention if, I have rarely seen older men on here though. Most of the men here seem to be in their 30s in below, whereas we have quite a good population of older women. Perhaps it is true that more 'traditional' men are less likely to visit, as well.

[sanskrit]

...Dude, I don't know about you guys, but 99% of the guys I know IRL wouldn't come within 10 miles of a relationship forum.

 

Have spent less than 1% of energy devoted to internet dealings over the last twenty years on relationship forums.

 

But, just so you know...

 

The PUA industry, which is a "male-colored glasses" view of relationships, as an industry, is as old as the emerging popularity of usenet in the late 80s, one of the first net businesses actually (google speed seduction wiki), long before "softer" relationship forums and any measurable female presence whatsoever on the net, so men actually have been exploring relationship issues on the net in much greater numbers and for much longer than women have. So dollars to donuts, most of the men you know who are computer literate have in fact explored relationship oriented net content. Do they come to places like LS or ENA first? No. Are they exploring relationships on the net? Absolutely.

 

Those who don't/didn't find the PUA community suits their needs, or seek to explore relationships more three dimensionally, and who want to get female perspectives, end up on forums like this, ENA and others.

 

So considering broadening your definitions and rethink the quoted statement above.

[Pyro]

The men here represent the population at large very well.

 

If that is the case (big IF) then I am most fortunate that myself and my group of friends do not fall into that representation.

[Crusoe]

If that is the case (big IF) then I am most fortunate that myself and my group of friends do not fall into that representation.

 

What representation Pyro? The representation of men?

 

You are part of that representaton. You represent the type of man you are, and maybe the type of men your friends are. I hear the views you express just as often as the views of someone like Woggle, or Carhill, or Sanskrit, GT, MrLonely, Owl, or Guns (when he was here) every day of my life. All men, all different, all led different lives, no one bigger, or better or more important than the next. Why consider yourself more fortunate because your opinion differs?

Edited May 24, 2011 by Crusoe

[Pyro]

What representation Pyro? The representation of men?

 

You are part of that representaton. You represent the type of man you are, and maybe the type of men your friends are. I hear the views you express just as often as the views of someone like Woggle, or Carhill, or Sanskrit, GT, MrLonely, Owl, or Guns (when he was here) every day of my life. All men, all different, all led different lives, no one bigger, or better or more important than the next. Why consider yourself more fortunate because your opinion differs?

 

My apologies because I read your post in the wrong way. With the increase in number of posters in the past few days who obviously are intimidated by women and/or hate them I had thought you were referring to them when you said that they represent the majority of the male population.

 

I consider myself more fortunate because I have always been able to get past by misfortunes with women. Instead of blaming them on women I have used them to improve myself for the better.

[shadowofman]

Why would anyone want an old fashion man. They tended to oppress women, take on mistresses, etc. The modern man is more gender equal and less willing to enter an ownership situation with a woman.

[Gentalmanly]

I found this thread this morning as I was looking up ways to keep my relationship alive without getting married after I join the military and was amused and disgusted by the bitter men that have posted in this thread. I find them pitiable and hope that one they they find love.

 

I will admit that I've felt the way you guys felt before...when I was 15...it's time to grow up guys. You hate women, because the didn't give you the time of day when you where a child...so freakin' what, people do this thing call "maturing" when they get older, something that you guys probably can't comprehend. Of course people's taste change over time.

 

Maybe if you spent less time pitying yourself and blaming women for you shortcomings and more time making yourself more desirable, you would've gotten more attention from the ladies in your twenties.

 

The way you describe women is as if you think they are all soul stealing succubi, no wonder they didn't like you. I've been rejected plenty of time, more times than not, but I hold no bitterness towards women people simply like what they like.

 

And yes, I will say that you guys made some valid points about men not gaining anything from being married, but if you go into a marriage with that mentality then you probably shouldn't marry your significant other any way.

 

You guys make it seem like the OP was a slut that had a new man between her legs everyday, but no where in her post is that implied. Everyone in the entire world has baggage as long as she doesn't let that affect her relationship, it isn't an important factor.

 

I will agree that it is her fault she has bad luck with men (looks like a duck...quacks like a duck). With a lot of women I know that date jerks, the jerks a popular, attractive, or the player type they're just asses. I have one friend whose last 3 boyfriends pretty much stalked her after she tried to break it off. I'm not saying it's her fault that they decide to stalk her, but the it's her fault for falling for the same trick twice. A lot of women don't seem to learn from their mistake, and then want to blame men in general.

 

On topic: OP, I think you should first rid yourself of this "there are no good men left" mentality, you could have a great guy in your presence already and be blinded by your generalization.

[Dusk1983]

Pyro & gentlemanly - great posts.

 

'Pitiable' just about sums up a grown man that hates and mistrusts the opposite sex.

[Dusk1983]

Some of us are students of social trends generally.

 

I find it amazing that a bunch of women who would have been considered prostitutes fifty years ago, who boast of their sexual conquests, infidelity and STDs, think that they are "entitled" to a traditional man and a relationship after they've squandered away their beauty and their fertility playing the ho.

 

 

You're a student of your own self loathing, nothing more. When will you get it through your stupid head that women like sex, they are sexual creatures like you are, and they have as much right to explore their sexuality as men?

 

Again like you, they have the right to do so without being labelled a prostitute, morally tarnished, cast out, or condemned by the likes of you to an unfulfilled and unhappy life.

 

Your views belong to the distant past but - hey - at least you can take some comfort from the fact they'll ensure your own relationships with women are certainly doomed.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Dusk1983

[frizzo]

You're a student of your own self loathing, nothing more. When will you get it through your stupid head that women like sex, they are sexual creatures like you are, and they have as much right to explore their sexuality as men?

 

Again like you, they have the right to do so without being labelled a prostitute, morally tarnished, cast out, or condemned by the likes of you to an unfulfilled and unhappy life.

 

Your views belong to the distant past but - hey - at least you can take some comfort from the fact they'll ensure your own relationships with women are certainly doomed.

 

Any man who's ever been in a LTR with a woman knows that while they may enjoy sex to an extent, they enjoy the power sex gives them MUCH more. Women have sex in order to trap men and to manipulate them through strategic denial and withholding. Women learn early on that by subjugating whatever sexual tendencies they may have, they can control men and extort resources from them. Women who are unable to completely master their sexual impulses instead cheat in order to maintain their control over their victim, er boyfriend, rather than lose their ability to manipulate through sex.

[ascendotum]

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with some of the males who come to LS, and females as well. But the plain fact is that this site, like it or not, attracts people of a certain type. One need only go to the Jungian type threads to see it.. we're full of INFJs, INFPs, etc; the types that are statistically only 2% or 5% of the population are actually 10 or 20% here. The most common types in the population, _STJs, are hardly even seen here.

 

The theories and 'rules' that I have seen here are so completely far out of the norm for the RL societies that I've been in that it's almost comical.

 

I remember seeing a few threads on myers briggs profiles and I was a little surprised (up to a point) on the number of INFJs, INFPs, etc types. As you say these types of personalities only comprise a subset of the population. No shock that that the suave or gregarious guys that are scoring new women regularly or the party girls or the I deserve the best princesses are not going to be big on LS, dispensing advice. Likewise majority of people who are half of a happy couple. I agree that the people on LS are not a typical cross section of the general public...however I also agree with Crusoe, as far as single men go.

 

I certainly don't think all of the views expressed here on LS are 'so completely far out of the norm for the RL societies that I've been in that it's almost comical. Guys are going to be more upfront on their feelings on an anonymous www forum than to your face in front of a mixed crowd. A couple of the posters here are definitely extreme in their bitterness towards women, but still the feelings expressed by a number of the other men as regards their cynicism with a woman in her 30s saying how she now wants a traditional man to support her after dating the wrong types of guys during her prime years is certainly not comical IR from the ‘single’ guys I know. (and no, a women of 32 is most certainly not over the hill has been by any means, but guys hate it when a woman comes to the realisation that she now wants a traditional type guy, after she puts on weight , cuts her hair shorter, stops wearing the tight fitting clothes and now wants to settle down).

 

While it is not representative of most women, I have heard this ‘where are the decent guys’ lament from a number of 30something women and I know their bad relationship history or they admit to being a magnet for losers (for the past 15yrs) and I roll my eyes when I hear it.

[Els]

Have spent less than 1% of energy devoted to internet dealings over the last twenty years on relationship forums.

 

But, just so you know...

 

The PUA industry, which is a "male-colored glasses" view of relationships, as an industry, is as old as the emerging popularity of usenet in the late 80s, one of the first net businesses actually (google speed seduction wiki), long before "softer" relationship forums and any measurable female presence whatsoever on the net, so men actually have been exploring relationship issues on the net in much greater numbers and for much longer than women have. So dollars to donuts, most of the men you know who are computer literate have in fact explored relationship oriented net content. Do they come to places like LS or ENA first? No. Are they exploring relationships on the net? Absolutely.

 

Those who don't/didn't find the PUA community suits their needs, or seek to explore relationships more three dimensionally, and who want to get female perspectives, end up on forums like this, ENA and others.

 

So considering broadening your definitions and rethink the quoted statement above.

 

You managed to make a 20-line post that doesn't address my statement whatsoever. I said 99% of the men I know IRL wouldn't come near a relationship forum with a ten-foot pole. What is your point?

[fortyninethousand322]

I certainly think it's interesting that in threads like these people are more than willing to defend spending one's twenties dating the wrong people and then wanting to reverse that trend later on, but in other threads these same people tend to criticize those who spent their twenties single and celibate (or close to it).

 

Anyway, I think it's perfectly natural for a guy (or a girl) who spent their younger years having few (or no) sexual partners to feel a certain amount of disappointment when they find that the only people left who want to date them are the people who spent their younger years living the opposite kind of life. It's the Prodigal Son Syndrome- "I made all the right choices, why should someone who didn't get rewarded?"

 

While I sympathize with the feelings, what is wrong is making value judgments based off of them. Saying things like a girl is "x" is she did "y" in her younger years or vice versa. That throws the whole discussion off course and doesn't earn anyone sympathy points.

[Els]

and no, a women of 32 is most certainly not over the hill has been by any means, but guys hate it when a woman comes to the realisation that she now wants a traditional type guy, after she puts on weight , cuts her hair shorter, stops wearing the tight fitting clothes and now wants to settle down

 

So your primary measure of a woman's worth is by how long her hair is, how light her body mass is, and the tight-fitting clothes that she wears. Nope, sorry, I don't consider that a traditional or decent guy. Truly traditional men typically don't even prefer their wives to wear tight-fitting clothing. What matters to them is that she is a good, honest, virtuous woman, sexually pure and dutiful. Not necessarily any better than your long-hair, tight-clothes requirement, but polar opposite nevertheless.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Any man who's ever been in a LTR with a woman knows that while they may enjoy sex to an extent, they enjoy the power sex gives them MUCH more. Women have sex in order to trap men and to manipulate them through strategic denial and withholding. Women learn early on that by subjugating whatever sexual tendencies they may have, they can control men and extort resources from them. Women who are unable to completely master their sexual impulses instead cheat in order to maintain their control over their victim, er boyfriend, rather than lose their ability to manipulate through sex.

 

Wow. You have a lot to learn about women if you ever hope to be in a relationship that's not miserable. I hope you learn it before you drag yourself and some poor women through that misery.

[fortyninethousand322]

So your primary measure of a woman's worth is by how long her hair is, how light her body mass is, and the tight-fitting clothes that she wears. Nope, sorry, I don't consider that a traditional or decent guy. Truly traditional men typically don't even prefer their wives to wear tight-fitting clothing. What matters to them is that she is a good, honest, virtuous woman, sexually pure and dutiful. Not necessarily any better than your long-hair, tight-clothes requirement, but polar opposite nevertheless.

 

I think it's more along the lines of: "back when she was good, honest, virtuous, sexually pure, dutiful and had long hair, tight body, etc. (basically she could have any man she wanted) she wasn't interested in me. Now that her options might be a little more limited she's interested in me. How much of a catch am I really?"

 

The above description is usually indicative of low self value (of the guy in this case) who has a singular view of dating development. Nevertheless it is more of a confidence and self esteem thing not so much of a "traditional vs non traditional" thing.

[carhill]

Wow. You have a lot to learn about women if you ever hope to be in a relationship that's not miserable. I hope you learn it before you drag yourself and some poor women through that misery.

I would concur, although I can cite numerous anecdotes of women telling me exactly that, as the 'tampon', as they process their way through life. I've even heard similar words from a couple LS'ers privately. To me, it's about compatibility.

 

In my first post in the thread, I linked to a post by the OP where she, after moving in with a guy after only a month of dating, due to 'crazy good magnetism' (her words) she found herself in a situation she thought worthy of posting on LS and was advised, apparently by members of both genders, to take action, including 'lose the loser'.

 

She actually reminds me a lot of those 'gale force' females I knew many years ago. What she's discovering is her disparity between want 'old-fashioned man' and attraction 'lose the loser' is causing her distress, hence her inquiry here. I think, if she can resolve her want and attraction to a continuum rather than disparate points, she'll find the path she seeks. Improve her people-picker to filter out the losers and to pause a moment in the maelstrom to consider that old-fashioned men who does present his sincere and polite interest. The key to her success lays within herself.

[lizwashere]

The men calling women whores and claiming that 32 is old for a woman really should be honest with themselves and admit that deep down they hate real women with all their flaws and past sexual history, the whole thing. They should just save their money and purchase one of those living dolls and spare real women who might have to endure their company. It's a win win for everyone involved.