Infidelity is a Good Thing?

[Trimmer]

Or maybe Kane hit a nerve with some folks?

But wait a minute, Kane's point that started all this was a blanket statement that "Those who say that [their marriage could be stronger after recovery from an affair] are in complete denial, sucking up what their WS feeds them." And now you're implying the he may be right, that he's "hitting a nerve" with some people?

 

But weren't you the one who said:

Yes it is possible if the cheating and disclosure of it, is viewed as a "crisis" in the relationship which results in "catharsis." .... Adversity can either destroy the relationship or in some cases make it stronger.... It is the process of recovery from disaster, if possible, that can make for a stronger relationship, as a broken bone if healed properly can become stronger than before the injury.

So what is your stand? In this comment, you are thoughtfully granting that it's at least possible, and giving a reasoned explanation for why you believe that.

 

The reason that Kane's comment offends isn't that he might be correct for some or many couples recovering from infidelity. It's that his comment arrogantly and flippantly paints all people with one brush, saying that IF you think your marriage has recovered and is stronger, THEN you are in denial, and not just regular denial, but complete denial.

 

So his comment is offensive and arrogant not because it's NEVER right (it is sometimes - indeed, many times) but because of his implication that it's ALWAYS right, and if you disagree, you are in "complete denial."

Edited May 26, 2011 by Trimmer

[John Michael Kane]

Could be it's because what you said was untrue.

 

Nope.

 

Your assertion that something must be true for people to get mad or offended makes no sense.

 

Actually it does make sense. If nothing is offensive then what is there to get angry about?

 

It makes a nice bumper sticker, but those are often designed to manipulate through solid-sounding but oversimplified sound bites. Kinda like your response here.

 

Did I say I was trying to complete bumper stickers to promote your company? No one is trying to manipulate anyone here. Those who state "My marriage has been better than ever" are lying out of the sky and they know it. I wasn't even specifically referring to Owl and the fact that he and two other posters "jumped me" proved my point. Instead of being in denial just face the fact that there is a whole lot of rightly justified resentment under that skin and then deal with it properly this time around.

 

And I wasn't even trying to "offend" anyone here. Just stating the obvious. Don't kill the Mail man.

[seren]

I am with H after his A, and I am one of those who say that their marriage is better, but not because of the A, but despite it. No denial here, it's not a trait I recognise in myself and I know me. I wouldn't want the same marriage we had before the A, fact is, had it stayed the same then we would have divorced by now. What reconcilation did for us was to make us both look at how we had contributed to the erosion of our marriage, how we didn't communicate with each other as we had before it all went sideways.

 

We both adopted roles in our marriage, I the fixer, to shield H from stress and problems, H accepting that this was OK. We both took each other for granted and no, this is no excuse for an A, but when I look at where we are now and how we are now I know that what we have is so different from what we had let our marriage become.

 

Infideltity is never a good thing, ever, it is living a life built on a lie and enjoying the security of a marriage, the support of a partner and all that goes with it, while pretending that all is OK. Enabling a person to do this is as bad, while the AP does not owe the BS anything, enabling the hurt of one by another is outside my understanding and there is no justification.

 

If a marriage is improved after D Day it is not because of infidelity, it is because the married people have made changes and decisions that have enabled them to work together to right (if it can be righted) the wrong the A wrought on their life together. It is after infideltity that a relationship can heal and become stronger, not while it is happening.

 

So, no, Infidelity is never a good thing, is lying, cheating or enabling these a good thing? because that is what it boils down to when you strip away the fairy dust

[Owl]

Ahhh here we go again. Why are you so mad if what I said was untrue? I rest my case.

 

You can rest your case, but it simply demonstrates your cluelessness and inability to accept any opinion outside of your own.

 

I'm mad at the fact that you're claiming that my marriage isn't recovered, that my relationship with my wife is somehow 'tainted/bad/etc...'.

 

Just as anyone would be if someone said that about their marriage.

 

I'm mad, offended by your comments because you mindlessly try to claim that those of us who HAVE recovered or saved our marriages are wrong, suffering, etc...

 

You don't have a clue, and are so blind that you can't even see the limitations in your own thinking and mindset. You try to twist my anger and offense at your ignorant observation of my marriage from your own twisted viewpoint because you're not able to heal and make it sound like somehow my anger justifies your own bitterness and lack of healing.

 

Not everyone has to end up like you.

 

People actually can heal. Can learn from their experiences and learn to do things better. Marriages can eventually heal if both parties learn and heal.

 

You'll never know that. Because YOU couldn't heal, because YOUR MARRIAGE couldn't heal as a result...everyone else's marriage has to be tainted/twisted/horrible/unable to heal. It's your coping mechanism. It's how you justify your own view on the rest of the world through the pain of your own situation that you never recovered from.

 

I really think you should seek help. Professional help...because your scars are well outside the scope of what anyone on this board could handle.

[Owl]

In contrast, Owl does NOT acknowledge that he might be wrong, not just about the validity of Kane's generalization, but about its specific application to his own case. But Owl might be wrong, just as any of us might be wrong. It is the mere possibility that Kane might be right, and Owl might be wrong, that is scary to Owl, and which results in the feeling of offense/anger, and consequent defense mechanism of denial.

 

For all Owl really knows, his wife could walk out on him tomorrow with some OM, totally blind siding him. That could happen to any one of us. Sorry but it's a fact of life.

 

Actually, you raise some good points.

 

I'll start with the last first if you don't mind.

 

You are completely and totally right. My wife could do the exact same thing she did before. It could happen to any of us. As a matter of fact, it doesn't matter if I were with my wife, or had ended my marriage and started over with someone else...I'd still be facing the same risk of that happening with ANYONE I'm with.

 

I totally recognize that as a possibility. As a matter of fact, I believe that if it were to happen again...I'd handle it much differently than how I dealt with it the first time I encourntered it. I learned a LOT from what we went through.

 

As far as me being wrong...wrong on what?

 

Wrong for believing that my marriage is recovered, and wrong for believing that it's not somehow 'tainted' and wrong for accepting someone else's twisted view that I have to be living some sham of a marriage because they couldn't recover their own? I don't think so.

 

There are other opinions out there, and it's fine to express them. But if you want to throw a broad brush stroke out there claiming something that I know is patently untrue...I'll refute it.

 

There ya go.

[What_Next]

You are completely and totally right. My wife could do the exact same thing she did before. It could happen to any of us. As a matter of fact, it doesn't matter if I were with my wife, or had ended my marriage and started over with someone else...I'd still be facing the same risk of that happening with ANYONE I'm with.

 

As usual Owl, well put.

 

You are indeed correct those of us who have been through this, well if you can get beyond your own anger that is, have learned an immense amount about ourselves.

[John Michael Kane]

You can rest your case, but it simply demonstrates your cluelessness and inability to accept any opinion outside of your own.

 

I'm mad at the fact that you're claiming that my marriage isn't recovered, that my relationship with my wife is somehow 'tainted/bad/etc...'.

 

Just as anyone would be if someone said that about their marriage.

 

I'm mad, offended by your comments because you mindlessly try to claim that those of us who HAVE recovered or saved our marriages are wrong, suffering, etc...

 

You don't have a clue, and are so blind that you can't even see the limitations in your own thinking and mindset. You try to twist my anger and offense at your ignorant observation of my marriage from your own twisted viewpoint because you're not able to heal and make it sound like somehow my anger justifies your own bitterness and lack of healing.

 

Not everyone has to end up like you.

 

People actually can heal. Can learn from their experiences and learn to do things better. Marriages can eventually heal if both parties learn and heal.

 

You'll never know that. Because YOU couldn't heal, because YOUR MARRIAGE couldn't heal as a result...everyone else's marriage has to be tainted/twisted/horrible/unable to heal. It's your coping mechanism. It's how you justify your own view on the rest of the world through the pain of your own situation that you never recovered from.

 

I really think you should seek help. Professional help...because your scars are well outside the scope of what anyone on this board could handle.

 

^

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Complete denial. And what does he do? Tries the oldest reverse psychology tactic in the book.

[Owl]

never mind. I'm done

[donnamaybe]

never mind. I'm done

Ever the wise one.

[What_Next]

Owl, I don't blame you one single bit, these 2 are likes peas in a pod, with a single track playing to boot.

 

Like you I'll leave this thread.

[Owl]

 

But you haven't "refuted" it. Through being so over the top defensive about this, you've actually lent support to Kane's contention.

 

So since I opted NOT to 'argue' about it anymore, does that then mean that I've actually refuted it???? LOL...and I thought non-Euclidean geometry was warped thinking!

[John Michael Kane]

Yes, I would never say that any situation or occurrence is "100%" likely to occur--a certainty--in all situations, because unlike you I'm not quite that black and white the way I see these issues.

 

Therefore I think you are wrong.

 

Does it make me upset that you might be wrong? No.

 

Does it make me upset, do I personalize your generalization as some kind of an attack on the integrity of my own marriage?

 

No.

 

See? Disagreement without all the "you're just bitter and you know nothing about my marriage" statements.

[Owl]

OK...thanks for sharing your opinion on my mindset. Better?

[Holding-On]

Getting back to the original post. I assume we are indeed speaking of Ms. Liz. She used the word "affair" but the situations with her MM were not really standard affairs in my mind.

The situation she had was a paid masseuse with a lot of variations on happy endings. Basically a prostitute with a girlfriend experience. Unlike the streetwalker she was treated respectfully (and I think there really is a great demand for this type of service and it would do our society good to acknowledge it).

However, her MM knew she was not exclusive. They paid her in "gifts". They knew she never wanted a relationship with one of them. So this is quite different from a standard affair with all of its emotional intensity, no?

 

I do have empathy for some cheaters. Sorry. I know that is not allowed on this board. I can understand how promising a pretty difficult thing (no sex with anyone else ever during the prime of your life) can seem very plausible when you are in the thick of love with your soon to be spouse and a different thing altogether after several sleepless (and sexless) years with young children.

It seemed that Ms. L. felt that her "massages" without emotional strings attached were beneficial to the young men she serviced. That they went home happy and were able to be more patient and giving as husbands and fathers.

The caveat to this of course is that these men must lie by ommission to their spouses for the rest of their lives. Hardly a small matter but very human.

[donnamaybe]

OK...thanks for sharing your opinion on my mindset. Better?

It's like they're both talking to a mirror, Owl.

[bentnotbroken]

Getting back to the original post. I assume we are indeed speaking of Ms. Liz. She used the word "affair" but the situations with her MM were not really standard affairs in my mind.

The situation she had was a paid masseuse with a lot of variations on happy endings. Basically a prostitute with a girlfriend experience. Unlike the streetwalker she was treated respectfully (and I think there really is a great demand for this type of service and it would do our society good to acknowledge it).

However, her MM knew she was not exclusive. They paid her in "gifts". They knew she never wanted a relationship with one of them. So this is quite different from a standard affair with all of its emotional intensity, no?

 

I do have empathy for some cheaters. Sorry. I know that is not allowed on this board. I can understand how promising a pretty difficult thing (no sex with anyone else ever during the prime of your life) can seem very plausible when you are in the thick of love with your soon to be spouse and a different thing altogether after several sleepless (and sexless) years with young children.

It seemed that Ms. L. felt that her "massages" without emotional strings attached were beneficial to the young men she serviced. That they went home happy and were able to be more patient and giving as husbands and fathers.

The caveat to this of course is that these men must lie by ommission to their spouses for the rest of their lives. Hardly a small matter but very human.

 

 

Liz isn't the only one who has said that over the years. Some former members and at least one current said the same things about "helping" the marriage. I always found that funny as hell.

[John Michael Kane]

Liz isn't the only one who has said that over the years. Some former members and at least one current said the same things about "helping" the marriage. I always found that funny as hell.

 

Must be some cuckolding/open marriage fantasy they have.

[Owl]

It's like they're both talking to a mirror, Owl.

 

You know...I had that EXACT same thought.

 

...

 

And now indeed it's time for me to move on.

[Owl]

So...back on topic.

 

Have you noticed that no one here agrees with the title of this thread?

 

EVERYONE agrees that cheating is wrong, and infidelity is NOT a good thing.

 

The dispute seems to come in when some portion of posters indicate that while the affair and infidelity itself was a bad, horrific thing that never should have happened, there are some marriages that end up using this negative event as a catalyst for positive changes in their marriage.

 

Affair=bad...improvements in marriage=good.

 

The posters who disagree strongest with this viewpoint in this thread are the ones who never recovered their marriages...they were unable to use this as a catalyst for positive changes.

 

Some can't seperate the negative affair from the positive changes...because they never got to the positive changes.

 

Again...has anyone here on this thread has stated that infidelity was a good thing?

[donnamaybe]

Ahhhhh. That's SO much better! Now I can only see the intelligent posters.

[Owl]

You know...this may be the first person I place on ignore after all these years on LS.

[thomasb]

You know...this may be the first person I place on ignore after all these years on LS.

 

I already found it a good idea.

Edited May 26, 2011 by thomasb

[ladydesigner]

You know...this may be the first person I place on ignore after all these years on LS.

 

I am also going to place him on ignore. I'm tired of feeling horrible after I read his posts and I am not going to remain miserable forever because I had a revenge affair. It really affects me and it has been causing me quite a bit of distress to the point where I am thinking of leaving the infidelity forum.

 

If there is no where a WS can go to learn from others then I don't know what.

 

There are many BS here who have helped me and I have read some really insightful posts. My IC has been a lifesaver and while LS aided in helping me understand about affairs and the effects, I feel this forum has become more of a debating and bantering forum in which most threads end up not even following the OPs original thoughts. Its tiring.

[Spark1111]

I am happily reconciled.

 

The relationship today is glorious, better than I could have ever hoped for, certainly better than the old, pre-affair marriage.

 

Why? My H worked tirelessly to fix what was broken within him.

 

I forgave him.

 

We BOTH worked to improve our communication, friendship, and intimacy.

 

Did I ever think it was possible? NO. I remained unsure for a very long time that I would have either the courage and the patience to wait and see if he was honest about the changes he intended to make, both within himself and in his dedication to restoring us. I was also unsure if I would be able to overcome my resentment and my own ego.

 

3.5 years later, I am glad I did.

 

What's your beef?

[StoneCold]

 

You mean just in this thread, at Love Shack, or in the world, generally? As far as I can see it, there are numerous apologists and excuse-makers for cheaters and infidelity. Yes we probably all agree that "cheating is wrong" but so many people say "cheating is wrong, BUT..."

 

?

 

Yeah.....and thats when things arent quite so black and white

 

 

EVERYONE agrees that cheating is wrong, and infidelity is NOT a good thing.

 

 

 

Yeah but according to who?