Spoken to MM and set a date for a decision

[whichwayisup]

I am curious to hear how this plays out. Since he has decided he is leaving, are you going to follow up with a timeline, when to actually take action?

 

How I read this is, she is going to tell him more or less, go talk to your wife, tell her you want a D and move out, be with me ... Or it's over. No more OW.

 

I have no idea if her MM has even hinted or talked to his wife about separation.

 

Though after 30 years of marriage vs a less than 2 year affair.. That's quite a decision he needs to make, to change his life in every way after 30 years.

[Breezy Trousers]

I used to handle divorces years ago and, yes, I saw three 30+ year divorces. The men initiated it. A younger woman was always involved.

 

I'm hardly a fan of these situations, but reality being what it is ....

 

I'm glad you're taking control, Arran. I just hope you stick to your boundary. MM tend to have the upper hand in most of the affairs I'm reading about here -- they control the when, if & how of the relationship.

 

If you're not married, MM isn't committed to you. Bottom line.

 

Unlike the others, I think you have the advantage here. Yes, a 30-year-marriage is difficult to leave, but look at the headlines. It happens. New Relationship Energy is very intense and can easily make a long-term married totally irrational. I've witnessed this firsthand.... Last weekend, my husband and I discussed how easy it is for someone "new" to tempt even a happy long-term married person with the excitement & intensity of a love affair. Every night is Opening Night with a new lover in a non-committed relationship. It's hard to have this excitement about someone you've been married to for decades, no matter how much you love that person. (Of course, as Susan Cheever eloquently discusses in her memoir "Desire," her two exciting affairs -- which became marriage nos. 2 and 3 -- eventually looked exactly like her first marriage within four years into each relationship -- but that's another thread.)

 

The problem is, there is going to be a definite expiration date on love fog in your affair -- affairs start losing excitement at 2 years, sometimes 3 years if you're lucky. At 16 months? You're smart to do this now. Don't wait. You won't be as exciting in a year. It's not about you. And it's not intended to demean your relationship. Love fog happens in the early stages of all relationships, and love fog always fades -- hopefully for something real and sustainable. But you can't know that until you get married.

 

I think if you wait beyond two years, it will get very tricky for you. Therapists say this triggers the "demanding" stage of affairs -- OW starts pleading and yelling. Once the "demanding" phase of the love affair begins, reality creeps into the relationship, and BS starts looking pretty good again .... On the other hand, you don't want to become one of the compliant OW who becomes addicted to hope and keeps putting her life on hold, waiting for MM to marry her.

 

So, yes, do it now. Don't waver. Let us know how it goes.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Breezy Trousers

[Arrangrl]

Good morning

 

Thanks to all who have written back in response to my OP. I will, of course feedback on the outcome of this weekend.

 

Hope everyone has a peaceful weekend

 

 

Arran

[Tashcw]

I think Arran is ceratinly making the right decision. I also think people give ultimatums because they want a way out either way. If he says 'no', it's easier to view the MM as a spineless so-and-so, if he says 'yes', it's validation that this is 'right'.

 

I'd just like to add to the poster who said 'be careful what you wish for'. I'm ashamed (and I genuinely am) to say my current BF was married when we met. At no point did I ever ask him to leave, yet within 4 months he said that he'd never felt this way before, even in the early days with his wife (they were married 18 months, but together for a long time previously) and he said that even if I didn't want him, he had to leave as from that point on he'd be living a lie. He left 3 weeks later, again with no prompting from me (in fact - the opposite, as I didn't want him flip-flopping so suggested every 'bad' scenario to him - the fact he'd lose his house, how hurt she'd be, how upset their families would be etc).

 

He says it was the hardest thing he ever did, but he knew it was right. Which sounds like the perfect ending people on this forum hope for. But it's HARD. He's going through a divorce and his xW has been very amicable (hats off to her, I don't know how!) and yet there's still a huge amount of financial and emotional stress. The only thing that's kept me here is his absolute dedication and the fact that I knew he left because he wanted to. Not because of me (I admit, I gave him that feeling in the first place).

 

I'm not sure I coudl survive the difficulties of a divorce and disapproval of our relationship if I know I'd forced the issue and he was only there because of an ultimatum, not through his own free will.

[greengoddess]

He's been married for 30 years and has only known you for a little over one year. How long have you two been sleeping together? I still don't see the rush for the ultimatum. Get to know him better. Learn his wonderful qualities that make you want to be with him. Let him get to know you better as well.

 

This could take a few years if you really want to be with him. He's not going to leave his wife after knowing you for such a short time. Be patient.

 

lol yup in other words continue lying and sneaking around behind his wife of thirty years back. wow that's advice?

[Silly_Girl]

He says it was the hardest thing he ever did, but he knew it was right. Which

I'm not sure I coudl survive the difficulties of a divorce and disapproval of our relationship if I know I'd forced the issue and he was only there because of an ultimatum, not through his own free will.

 

Not heard that take on it before Tashcw. Do you think that Arran is removing her guy's ability to act of his own volition? That he would leave his wife under some sort of duress or physical threat and spend the rest of their time together resenting her for stealing him?

 

It IS his free will. But he can make an informed choice. If having Arran in his life means more to him than what he would be giving up, that's his call to make. She's simply stating her desire to cease being the OW.

 

It could be looked at the other way. Someone who doesn't leave for their new partner was leaving anyway and just happened to hook up with the next person along the way. Could have been anyone! (that's not my view, btw)

[Got it]

I had a similar situation. When we first started we had a come to Jesus meeting and agreed upon certain perimeters, expectations of both parties and I agreed to wait a year for him to wrap things up. I recapped it in writing and off we went. We got to that deadline and I was dead serious about it. While I loved being with him, I was not looking to remain in an EMR and he needed to follow through with the plans he had stated from the very beginning or let me go and move on with his life.

 

Anyway we came up to the deadline, and in all honesty I am not sure if he would have hit it but a dday did ensue based on him make some moves and that put things out of whack. We broke up as I couldn't handle the additional drama and he now really needed to focus on things at home and what he wanted. We stay in touch some though it was very hard. It took a few months but he did end up ending his marriage and moving out.

 

I agree it is hard to end a marriage and it does need to end because the marriage is done not for another person. I needed him to decided that himself as I didn't and don't want to hear " I did this all for you" and not owning his decisions.

 

My thinking too, was maybe he needed to experience life without me to help put things in perspective. I knew what we had, I knew how good were were and I was fairly certain he did too. Now what I didn't know was the reality of his marriage, he knew that. And he needed to deal with things.

 

I have no issues with deadlines or ultimatums but be committed to walking if needed. A deadline with no follow through is wasted breath and you are less likely to be believed next time. If you are getting more good than bad, then you need to decide if ending it is what you want. If it is more bad than good or the bad is outweighing the good than hold to your boundaries, be true to you and walk your talk.

 

Good luck.

[so-wrong]

All I would say Arran is that you need to be 100% sure that you are indeed strong enough to walk away if you are not happy with what your MM wants to do re his M. Ultimatums are very easy to throw out there, but it is so much more difficult to actually follow through with them & if you realise you can't follow through with breaking up with MM, you will be in a far weaker position because of it. My MM has been married a similar length of time to yours & much as he seemed to be totally in love during the A, he realised soon after D day just how much he stood to lose. Obviously my situation is ongoing but clearly not looking good for me, as the odds really are stacked against us. I wish you luck.

[Owl]

I admit to reading the first few pages and then skipping to the end, so if I've missed something relevent, I apologize.

 

With that said, I want to ask the OP...what difference does this "decision" make? What does it change???

 

I can see setting a deadline for ACTIONS. That's a catalyst for change.

 

But you haven't done that...you've just set a deadline for more words. That doesn't change ANYTHING.

 

What's to stop him from saying "I choose you!"...and then continue on for the next six months claiming he's seperating, but really changing nothing?

 

If you're going to set a deadline...set a deadline based on definable actions.

 

You have until this weekend to tell her about us and move out. Or you have until Wed to file paperwork.

 

You get the idea.

 

But setting a deadline on making a decision...that's not definable, it's not a true ACTION that you can see results of within that timeline. It changes nothing...he could SAY whatever he wants (and my money is that he's going to tell you that he loves you and will seperate to be with you...but it won't happen anytime soon), but then DO whatever he wants in whatever timeframe suits him, not you.

 

Think about it. What will be different after this weekend?

[Silly_Girl]

Owl, Arran did make mention of her giving thought to timescales so that if he says he is leaving, some practical dates can be discussed.

[Trimmer]

I admit to reading the first few pages and then skipping to the end, so if I've missed something relevent, I apologize.

 

With that said, I want to ask the OP...what difference does this "decision" make? What does it change???

 

I can see setting a deadline for ACTIONS. That's a catalyst for change.

 

But you haven't done that...you've just set a deadline for more words. That doesn't change ANYTHING.

Yeah, you missed my post #39 - I'm not surprised you had the same thoughts on this situation...

[Mimolicious]

Sorry. Obviously you found my question frustrating, but I have no better idea of why you call it an 'interception'. I've not yet heard anyone suggest they were physically forced to enter an affair. Intercept just doesn't fit at all for me. I just wanted to understand better.

 

SG- your question is not frustrating at all. What is frustrating is that you come across as what anyone says on here must "fit" you. Honestly, do my ideas have to fit yours? In fact, you are not questioning at all! You make statements trying to discard someone else's opinion/ideas because they don't fit your standards.

 

Sorry sweetpea, but there are billions of people in this world and we all have our own ideas. Sorry that you and I don't see eye to eye. That's life!

[Mimolicious]

Arran,

Do keep us posted on what happens.

I agree with you (and others) that you did not in any way "intercept" or try to intercept this man's marriage. HE was available and interested in a relationship with you, and vice versa. One can't intercept a 30 year marriage if the MP isn't looking to be involved with someone else.

 

*PAUSE*

 

That "someone else" has to be willing to be a participant in an A, UNLESS he lied to you and told you he wasn't M. Let's be for real... How is anyone part of something that they are not willing to be participating in, again? People on here (and in RL as well) use the infamous excuse of "just happened". Nothing "just happens", it starts somewhere...

 

Perhaps if more people were in control of their actions, less people would be broken-hearted and stressed the hell out, miserable and depressed as many are here. Maybe a thread needs to be started on the "GREATNESS OF AFFAIRS". From the reads of things... they are not all that swell. At least on these boards, the sadness and pain drips all over the place.

There is more to life than being drained in matters of the heart.

 

You've been together almost a year and a half - many engagements are settled in less time - so you know by now if you love him and if he loves you.

 

I agree with many that giving up a 30 year marriage for such a new relationship might be a stretch for your AP, but there is no reason why you shouldn't be totally honest with him that you are looking for a legitimate relationship or else you don't want to continue.

 

I don't think that is manipulative, or even an ultimatum really... more like a "state of the relationship" review where you tell him what you need and he tells you if he can offer it. If he can't, then you part ways.

 

And truthfully, it's even more fair to his W. If he intends to build a life with you from now on, why drag his W through more time?

 

There is a poster on here, HappyAtLast, who left his W for his OW and he's mentioned that because he loved his OW he didn't want to keep her an OW for too long. He didn't think it was fair to keep her on the side, so to speak. I really appreciated his point of view.

 

I myself am in the middle of trying to move my A into a legitimate relationship. My AP and I set a six-month date and we'll see what happens!

 

 

*Ten characters needed*

[Silly_Girl]

SG- your question is not frustrating at all. What is frustrating is that you come across as what anyone says on here must "fit" you. Honestly, do my ideas have to fit yours? In fact, you are not questioning at all! You make statements trying to discard someone else's opinion/ideas because they don't fit your standards.

 

Sorry sweetpea, but there are billions of people in this world and we all have our own ideas. Sorry that you and I don't see eye to eye. That's life!

 

No Mimo, I've no problem that we all have different ideas, in fact I am happy about that. But I was questioning the word itself, and luckily we have dictionaries for that sort of thing

[26pointblue]

II am super independent and this is the only time I feel I need someone. So emotionally bonded, I need the support just the same as he does. So what do I do with that. I cut it off, then we both lose out ?? Grrrr....

 

Okay vweb even though I usually think you're a troll & even though you never listen to any advice that is posted to you & only like to brag about your sad situation, this almost sounds like a cry for help & clarity to me, so, just in case it might help, let me share with you some advice I learned being an OW. You should not need emotional support from someone who is married to another woman & who can't give you all of himself. In this way you are selling yourself short & settling for less than you deserve. I know that a strong connection/bond & oftentimes an addiction [for me it was both] develop in these situations which is hard to live without but if you don't get out you will continue to suffer more & more. It is not a healthy relationship so be alone & provide yourself with your own emotional support & then you will no longer need it from a married man. This is what I'm doing & it is hard - but nothing good comes easily!! I miss the emotional support my xMM gave me but in reality he was rarely there for me -- what does your MM actually do for you besides boost your ego when you're feeling lonely? Seriously? Does he do any of the following:

 

1. help you move into your new apartment?

2. help you take care of your sick dog on an even semi-consistent basis?

3. hold you in his arms & hug you after you've had a bad day at work?

4. take you to drop your car off at the dealership when it needs repaired?

 

My xMM & had a full-blown emotional & physical affair for a year -- he treated me 'well' & spent much more time with me than most of the MMs I read about on this forum, & the above are just four random examples of things he could not do for me because he was busy trying to suck up to his BW after D-Day.

 

It is not fun to realize the person you love & who gives you emotional support can't really give you that much of it. It isn't fun to realize you are being short-changed & not getting what women get in a regular, full-time relationship! It makes you feel like you have been settling for less than you deserve- & guess what, you are. So stop it & be on your own until you find a man who loves you 100%, not just when it's convenient for him or when he's able to because his wife is away.

 

I am only giving you this advice from my own experience, & because it is advice I am desperately trying to follow myself. I have very hard times when I miss talking to xMM, making love with him, cuddling him, etc. . . . but then I remember all the crappy times & all the things he couldn't do for me, & that I deserve better, & I come on here & post or go for a run or call my sister or BFF or clean out my closet & decide what new clothes I'd like to buy myself . . . believe me hon there are a bazillion different ways to boost yourself emotionally than offering yourself up to be a married man's mistress, or, in your case, cyber sex toy & online chat partner only. I really do hope you think about this but you will probably just accuse me of being jealous which I'm so not.

[26pointblue]

Sorry Arran I think I just t/j'ed your thread but it is relevant because I believe you deserve a full-time relationship too & if MM isn't giving that to you you should walk. If he wants to be with you for real he will show you with his actions. If not you deserve better. I completely agree with what you're doing. I will just give you a couple words of caution based on my experience: Even if he moves out, & says he wants to be with you, & says he wants to divorce -- none of this means he will get divorced. He may just be doing the minimum that is necessary to keep you in his life, while being confused & conflicted himself -- & then the real drama & turmoil begins, which is way way worse than being full-on in the affair [in my experience].

 

I really think it is better to just walk away & find a single man, or at least wait until he has shown with actions, such as at least filing for divorce, or perferable being divorced, that he can really be all yours. I didn't follow this advice though & had to learn the hard way, so I understand where you're at, & whatever happens, I wish you the best.

[jj33]

Arran I hope you get the answer you want this weekend. I think you are very wise to have a cut off point. After a certain amount of time when you know you want more and you arent getting it, it changes the dynamic of the relationship.

 

This isnt an ultimatum. Its you saying I need x out of a relationship either you can give it to me or you cant. Its no different than dating someone single and deciding what you want and need out of the relationship. Either a relationship meets your needs or it doesnt.

 

And if it doesnt go your way, I have no doubt you will be able to walk away. I did (not under those circumstances but when I had enough of being the OW) and its not fun but everyone has their own limits. Knowing your limits and respecting them is important. Once you reach them there is no point hanging on if you arent enjoying the day to day or are in it "waiting". IMHO noone should ever be in a relationship "waiting" for someone to leave. You can "wait" while you are getting on with your life. Leaving doesnt mean you stop loving the person it just means that you start the process of making room in your heart for someone new. And for most people its not a quick process.

 

Either you are happy with the relationship or you arent and you cut if off. You look after you. Once you have reached your limits, hanging in there like a majorette auditioning for the pep squad does no one any good. It eats away at your self esteem and only leads to misery.

[Breezy Trousers]

I had a similar situation. When we first started we had a come to Jesus meeting and agreed upon certain perimeters, expectations of both parties and I agreed to wait a year for him to wrap things up. I recapped it in writing and off we went. We got to that deadline and I was dead serious about it. While I loved being with him, I was not looking to remain in an EMR and he needed to follow through with the plans he had stated from the very beginning or let me go and move on with his life.

 

Anyway we came up to the deadline, and in all honesty I am not sure if he would have hit it but a dday did ensue based on him make some moves and that put things out of whack. We broke up as I couldn't handle the additional drama and he now really needed to focus on things at home and what he wanted. We stay in touch some though it was very hard. It took a few months but he did end up ending his marriage and moving out.

 

I agree it is hard to end a marriage and it does need to end because the marriage is done not for another person. I needed him to decided that himself as I didn't and don't want to hear " I did this all for you" and not owning his decisions.

My thinking too, was maybe he needed to experience life without me to help put things in perspective. I knew what we had, I knew how good were were and I was fairly certain he did too. Now what I didn't know was the reality of his marriage, he knew that. And he needed to deal with things.

 

I have no issues with deadlines or ultimatums but be committed to walking if needed. A deadline with no follow through is wasted breath and you are less likely to be believed next time. If you are getting more good than bad, then you need to decide if ending it is what you want. If it is more bad than good or the bad is outweighing the good than hold to your boundaries, be true to you and walk your talk.

 

Good luck.

 

The danger with ultimatums -- whining, cajoling, pleading, demanding -- is that, if AP conform to that, AP are more likely to blame their lovers for their choices and the subsequent fallout from those choices down the line (in the same fashion they may blame BS for their own choices with regard to the marriage).

 

And there will definitely be some fallout.

 

If you set a boundary, then take it back, you won't be taken seriously. You will be making MM more important, not your own needs. That won't go unnoticed.

 

Got It offers much wisdom here.

[Emme]

Arrangrl I wish you nothing but the best this weekend. I hope it all works out and then you can move on with your divorce and trying to build a life with this new love of your life. Enjoy the weekend.

[whichwayisup]

I hear what you are saying but I don't need him to do 1, 2 or 4. 3 would be nice and If I really need that I think he would make it happen.

 

I think I like the part-timeness of the whole thing. (that's the problem)

I'm a tad bit of a commit-phobe so for me this is usually enough. I'm not even sure I want a man 100% right now. So for the most part I am comfortable with where it's at so that makes it even harder to think of giving him up. Especially when I am getting what I want out of it as well. I:o

 

Well, then why are you asking him to leave his marriage for you?? IF you are having committment issues, and are a committment phobe, then don't you think you should work on yourself, get therapy or something to solve this? This guy *may* divorce his wife to be with you.. You owe him to do your part in this too..Imagine he leaves, then you freak out and can't make a committment to him.

 

If you like the part time of this, then keep being the OW. On your terms. Otherwise you could regret it down the road..He moves in with you, wants to marry you... Better be sure this is what you want before he leaves and divorces his wife.

[shie]

really hard to start anew but then......girl, you will never be happy and contented with your sOmeOne if you just ''stolen'' him from someone else....

[whichwayisup]

. If you want out of your M, then get out. It should have no bearing on whether he divorces or not.

 

I'm confused? I didn't think she was married. And, I thought this affair of hers was an online one and she and the MM haven't met face to face yet either. It's been by phone/chat online/skype kind of thing..

 

And, hasn't he been married for like 30 years too? Sorry I may be mixing her story up with someone else's..

[whichwayisup]

Oops, I know what I've done, mixed up vweb with the OP. My mistake.

[Silly_Girl]

The danger with ultimatums -- whining, cajoling, pleading, demanding -- is that, if AP conform to that, AP are more likely to blame their lovers for their choices and the subsequent fallout from those choices down the line (in the same fashion they may blame BS for their own choices with regard to the marriage).

 

And there will definitely be some fallout.

 

If you set a boundary, then take it back, you won't be taken seriously. You will be making MM more important, not your own needs. That won't go unnoticed.

 

Got It offers much wisdom here.

 

BT, you seem to have a real issue with the AP making a call and being assertive about their own life. Is there a reason for that, do you think?

 

Firstly, why is it an ultimatum at all? You say: my life is here, I'm going this way, I want ABC but not XYZ. We need to decide if, given that fact, there's any future for us.

 

Not an ultimatum.

 

Secondly, it sure doesn't need to include WHINING!!!!

 

As for the blame issue, I've not heard of that bearing out in similar situations. Most agree that the MM rarely leaves so if he does I imagine he actually WANTS to (it's so easy NOT to leave!), so why the assumption there would be resentment?

 

What's your recommendation BT? If you remove the option of 'dump him because he's married' (we know that many OW don't choose that option), and asking him to decide on the future is also flawed, what else do you think is open to Arran?

[Breezy Trousers]

BT, you seem to have a real issue with the AP making a call and being assertive about their own life. Is there a reason for that, do you think?

 

Firstly, why is it an ultimatum at all? You say: my life is here, I'm going this way, I want ABC but not XYZ. We need to decide if, given that fact, there's any future for us.

 

Not an ultimatum.

 

Secondly, it sure doesn't need to include WHINING!!!!

 

As for the blame issue, I've not heard of that bearing out in similar situations. Most agree that the MM rarely leaves so if he does I imagine he actually WANTS to (it's so easy NOT to leave!), so why the assumption there would be resentment?

 

What's your recommendation BT? If you remove the option of 'dump him because he's married' (we know that many OW don't choose that option), and asking him to decide on the future is also flawed, what else do you think is open to Arran?

 

 

Wow. Silly, it appears you misunderstood what I wrote, which means I apparently didn't communicate it well. Thanks for letting me clarify this:

 

I absolutely do NOT think Arran is issuing an ultimatum or whining here. I think Arran is setting a mature boundary. This only turns into the often-typical ultimatum/whining/demanding affair drama when OW/OM repeatedly set boundaries, then repeatedly pulls back or compromises on those boundaries out of fear of losing the AP.

 

I agree with you that if MM leaves it's because he wants to. I can't figure out how you interpreted my comments to mean "resentment," unless you're referring to the fallout comment. Yes, there is always fallout unless someone is mentally disordered --- it's natural for a normal person to feel guilt, loss, upheaval in a divorce. Most marriages involves longstanding friends of the marriage, extended families, and children who are affected by divorces. It also involves financial loss and, sometimes, a sense of failure. even if you're the partner walking away.

 

Many people say divorce is horrible -- often worse than imagined -- and some people actually live to regret it, given years of hindsight. For others, the marriage was long dead, but divorce is still a huge transition. I'm not making this stuff up. Surely you've heard that?

 

Divorce creates enormous stress, which is why divorce is considered a great life crisis. What do people often do to try to manage these difficult feelings? Blame someone. Who would be an easy target for projecting all this guilt, upset, loss? The affair partner. If life turns out not to be rosy fairytale, the temptation is even greater.

 

Is it the affair partner's fault? Of course not. But humans love to blame.

We see blame directed toward BS all the time here. Human nature.

 

Here's an example of what I'm trying to convey:

 

A friend lost her 18 year marriage to an affair. It was devastating. She actually saw -- I'm not making this crap up, I swear on my husband's life -- her husband and OW-employee riding on a bicycle built for two near their home, waving joyfully at her as she drove past. (They were clearly in love fog. lol) My friend slowly rebuilt her life. She's much better off without H, even she admits today. The weird thing is this: Her ex-H and his OW never married. The strain from the divorce affected their own relationship so badly that it fell apart at the four-year mark, two years after the divorce. (This is why Susan Cheever's comment about her relationships with AP looking very similar to her first marriage at the four-year-mark struck me.) The problem for OW in this situation was that my friend's husband was an alcoholic and not the power behind the family business, as he probably presented himself to be. He had a great appearance -- house, wardrobe, car -- which probably appealed to OW, but she had no way of knowing that it was his wife who was responsible for much of that outward appearance. Because he routinely refused to take responsibility for his life, including his past marriage, he blamed OW for the fallout he experienced from the divorce. Being a sensible woman, she left him.

 

That's what I'm getting at. Not all affairs are the same, of course. However, to ignore certain risks is stupid, unless you enjoy gambling with your life. I, for one, do not. I think Arryan is asking for comments because she doesn't either.

 

My recommendation -- since you asked -- is what my posts say: that Arran is wise to do precisely what she plans to do this weekend. I'm applauding her!!!