The slavery of our conceit...

[shadowofman]

Some of you on here might know me as the apologist for cheaters and sluts. In general, an antagonist. But I’ve decided to clarify my points of view in order to appear as less of a demon, and hopefully to cause you to think maybe in a different manner than you’ve been accustomed. For the purposes of this clarification, I begin by stating the fact that lying/cheating is always wrong from a moral stand point. I think most people blow it completely out of proportion, but that’s not this rant. This rant is about personal feelings of jealousy and possessiveness, entitlement and ego.

 

Many people have different ideas of good and evil, right and wrong. They may imagine these concepts as black and white or from a defined source like Gawd. But the true of the matter is, good and evil potentially exist in all of us as if God and the Devil were actually within us. And we have the choice to listen to one or the other in any given situation. It’s the yin/yang and it’s a philosophical fact if there ever was one. Now we all know that people are for the most part good, but that we all “sin” at some point or another. Whether you are Christian or not, most of us understand the concept of forgiveness even if most do not practice it. And so in matters of infidelity, we often say that we forgive but never forget, and people spend years of their precious lives in constant distrust of the one’s they love the most. I for one recognize this sort of thing as a cancer on the individuals involved, society, and the family.

 

I propose a radical notion; a new way to look at this pain and ourselves. This perspective is something I’ve been practicing since I was first cheated on, by my first girl friend when I was 17 years old (she was sleeping with 5 other guys in addition to me). This was not the first or the last time that I have felt hurt, jealous, and possessive; and I admit that I have acted out negatively in response.

 

My purpose here is to suggest that jealousy and possessive entitlement are the problem with infidelity! Personally, I choose to look inward to these negative emotions, accept them for what they are, accept that I am feeling them, and then get over it. Rather than blaming someone else for hurting me, or expecting to be considered someone else’s “everything”, recognize that the source of the pain is a negative selfish emotion, natural, unavoidable, but unhealthy. I place myself in their position, recognize that their motive was the pursuit of pleasure and I convert my resentment into vicarious gratification. This process leads me to WANT to know all about the encounter, and if the encounter was a positive experience for my SO, then I am actually experiencing the arousal or otherwise positive emotions that lead my SO to this action. It all sounds very hippie dippie, which I am not. But I am a huge fan of rational thought. I am the most un-spiritual person you may ever encounter, but I leave you with the Second Noble Truth of Buddhism:

 

“The origin of suffering is attachment to transient things and the ignorance thereof. Transient things do not only include the physical objects that surround us, but also ideas, and -in a greater sense- all objects of our perception. Ignorance is the lack of understanding of how our mind is attached to impermanent things. The reasons for suffering are desire, passion, ardour, pursuit of wealth and prestige, striving for fame and popularity, or in short: craving and clinging. Because the objects of our attachment are transient, their loss is inevitable, thus suffering will necessarily follow. Objects of attachment also include the idea of a "self" which is a delusion, because there is no abiding self. What we call "self" is just an imagined entity, and we are merely a part of the ceaseless becoming of the universe.“

 

Good luck, all of you beautiful people.

[Memphis Raines]

so the problem with cheating isn't the act of cheating and betrayal itself, but the emotions it brings out, which you chalk up to jealousy and possessiveness?

 

so we aren't to feel bad about being betrayed and the problem isn't that someone would betray us?

 

oh brother.

 

and how is it possessive if we want to no longer be with a cheater? isn't that just the opposite of being possessive?

 

and I realize this is probably nothing more than a fishing thread, but I'll bite.

[fltc]

Again, don't feed the troll!

[sanskrit]

People who have the kinds of buddhist or existential outlook you recommend don't tend to get married or to take marriage as seriously as the vast majority. Those with traditional ideas who do get married tend to believe in objective good and evil, usually derived from religious beliefs and a measure of trying to be a generally "good" person. They aren't going to be able to change their outlook in any meaningful way... ever, as it involves too much cognitive dissonance. For a comparison, go get a book on modern theoretical physics and try to change your outlook to accommodate the ideas you read about within, starting with the extra dimensions that a working field theory will eventually necessitate.

 

A monogamous sexual relationship is the most intimate type of relationship that humans form. It's why they call it pair-bonding. Attributing the emotions associated with infidelity to mere selfishness is naive and simplistic. For people who haven't been cheated on several times in life, the first time, especially if it comes later in life is literally like having a piece of oneself torn off, or being physically torn in half, triggering the survival instinct in a way that the term "selfishness" can't get close to reaching. How long would it take you to recover from having your leg ripped right off your body and lost? Do you think that some dude on the internet would be helping you any by suggesting that your feelings about your leg were transient and motivated by selfishness and jealousy?

Edited May 25, 2011 by sanskrit

[shadowofman]

Specifically, I am describing here my method of reducing my own pain. It's an exercise in rationalizing acceptance of normal human behavior.

 

so the problem with cheating isn't the act of cheating and betrayal itself, but the emotions it brings out, which you chalk up to jealousy and possessiveness?

I began my rant with a fact. That cheating and lying are always wrong, but that most people blow such things completely out of proportion. Often, people use the analogy, that to be cheated on is like having a limb torn off. While I admit that such betrayal can cause a heavy fire in the gut, or raise your blood pressure, anything resembling the shock of limb loss is hyperbole.

 

so we aren't to feel bad about being betrayed and the problem isn't that someone would betray us?

I have stated that feelings of jealousy and betrayal are negative selfish emotion, natural, unavoidable, but unhealthy. Much like hatred, I suggest that we recognize our natural tendency to be jealous/possessive, and then reduce these emotions.

 

and how is it possessive if we want to no longer be with a cheater? isn't that just the opposite of being possessive?

Actually, "no longer wanting to be with a cheater" is not possessive. It is possessive to declare that your SO touching another human being in a individually determined way is cheating. Just as a child might declare that no one is allowed to play with their toys.

 

Again, don't feed the troll!

I maybe a troll, but I happen to think that this is an important philosophical discussion that might actually help some to overcome irrational over-reactions.

 

People who have the kinds of buddhist or existential outlook you recommend don't tend to get married or to take marriage as seriously as the vast majority. Those with traditional ideas who do get married tend to believe in objective good and evil, usually derived from religious beliefs and a measure of trying to be a generally "good" person. They aren't going to be able to change their outlook in any meaningful way... ever, as it involves too much cognitive dissonance. For a comparison, go get a book on modern theoretical physics and try to change your outlook to accommodate the ideas you read about within, starting with the extra dimensions that a working field theory will eventually necessitate.

Agreed.

 

A monogamous sexual relationship is the most intimate type of relationship that humans form. It's why they call it pair-bonding. Attributing the emotions associated with infidelity to mere selfishness is naive and simplistic.

Agreed, but I don't find it naive or simplistic. I think it may be difficult to hear, as the situations can be difficult to bare.

 

For people who haven't been cheated on several times in life, the first time, especially if it comes later in life is literally like having a piece of oneself torn off, or being physically torn in half, triggering the survival instinct in a way that the term "selfishness" can't get close to reaching.

I have, a couple times throughout my life, experienced incredible pain because of my attachment and perceived possession of another. But I've never experienced anything like the shock of losing a limb. I'm sure some people would experience crippling effects. I am not trying to be flippant about their emotions, but I would like them to suck it up a little and realize that it's not at all like being ripped in two.

 

Do you think that some dude on the internet would be helping you any by suggesting that your feelings about your leg were transient and motivated by selfishness and jealousy?

I don't see why it wouldn't help me to listen to another persons point of view. My mind is often changed by considering another's perspective. Even if it is just some dude on the internet.

[sanskrit]

While I admit that such betrayal can cause a heavy fire in the gut, or raise your blood pressure, anything resembling the shock of limb loss is hyperbole.

 

Have you ever been married? for many years? I haven't either, but I have seen people lose a limb and lose a spouse, and if anything, losing the spouse is more traumatic and shocking. Being cheated on is the equivalent of loss of that person, the person one thought one knows ceases to exist instantly.

 

I have never seen nor heard of people dying within a year of losing a limb merely from that alone, but it is relatively common for people to die very near the death of a long term spouse. Many of the people posting here have been dating a relatively short time, others have been married for years or decades. You can't throw all those in the same boat of "unavoidable but unhealthy" emotion. Grief is healthy, if we didn't feel it in all it's intensity, we would be sociopaths.

[shadowofman]

I guess I'm a sociopath for attempting to reduce my suffering while broadening my pleasure. Maybe you find my post insensitive? That's fine. I'm used to that. As I said in my opening, I'm often a demon to many on these forums.

[Kezu]

Cheating is ego boosting and the opposite to our partners, we do it for ourselves, if you don't have a concept of good and evil based around fictional concepts (religion) you should have no qualms about it other than not liking it having it done to yourself, which seems to be most people's motivations if not religion, but not doing it doesn't stop it from happening to you (except as a vengeance cheat), it makes no sense.

 

Cheating is perfectly fine except if you truly want to keep your relationship and want to make no mistakes that would break it at all cost. If you absolutly love and respect someone you will not cheat on them anyway! Because you probably won't want to.

 

If you're angry, you're just at the lower end of the dating world and are very vulnerable to being cheated on and it's your way to deal with it.

[shadowofman]

I agree. My point here is not to justify cheating. It is to lessen the pain of being cheated on by accepting that people should not be considered your property. They may disgust you with their actions, and that may make you want to leave. But I want people to tone down the "betrayal/torn asunder" talk. I believe that these feelings are natural, but emphasis is misplaced and these people feed into each other.

[sanskrit]

How bout both of you get back to us once you become adults and actually experience a variety of adult relationships. Have "sophomore dorm room BS session" all you like, but it's rather transparent.

[sally4sara]

Again, don't feed the troll!

 

FWIW, I don't think shadowofaman is a troll. He has been around here for a long while now and while he is unconventional in his views, he does seem to value honesty in his lack of convention and seems to genuinely seek to share his views rather than just wanting to get your blood up. He isn't ridiculing anyone in his opener and doesn't target any particular group of interest with bias, good or bad.

 

No need to peck over one feather of oddity.

[fltc]

FWIW, I don't think shadowofaman is a troll.

 

But his post is trolling and that makes him a...........?

[shadowofman]

I openly admit to being antagonistic. And if that makes me a troll, then so be it.

 

How bout both of you get back to us once you become adults and actually experience a variety of adult relationships. Have "sophomore dorm room BS session" all you like, but it's rather transparent.

I have no idea what your talking about. I am an adult and have had more variety in my relationships than a majority of the people here. Kezu's comment was thoughtful and appropriate to this thread, as were your earlier comments. Seems something has struck a nerve in you.

 

No need to peck over one feather of oddity.

Thank you sally4sara. My intent is to stir up conversation and self reflection, but some will not see the forest for the trees. So a troll I am.

[shadowofman]

Add for that matter, there are hundreds of threads on this blasted site written by people FREAKING OUT over the fact that a bf/gf kissed someone else 10 years ago. And there are hundreds more that feed their irrational fears. I offer a POV, an exercise. I might be so bold as to call it enlightenment in the action of love.

 

So get off my troll nuts!

[threebyfate]

The examples presented in the opening post don't take into consideration agreements and unilateral agreement breaking. What you're suggesting is that two people enter into an agreement and willy-nilly, one decides to break it so it's up to the other one to just suck it up. No go. One breaks it, Sayonara dirtbag!

 

If two people enter into an open relationship, no one beyond the far right would have issues. No one would care.

[shadowofman]

Agreed three. If someone breaks an agreed upon arrangement, I see no reason why one should have to remain in a relationship. What I am suggesting is that people abandon the interest in controlling or owning the individuals they supposedly love. Or to never become so fully attached to anyone in the first place to the extent that they are able to "tear you in two".

 

My first girlfriend, as I described, was sleeping with five other boys while she was my girl friend. I was so hurt and angry that I completely wrote her off for nearly ten years. She is now one of my best friends in the world. We love each other very much, but in now way have any say over the destiny of each other other than the advice we constantly provide each other. And the relationship is more fulfilling than any other in my life.

[threebyfate]

Myself, I've no interest in having sex with others and neither does my husband. We're happy in our one-to-one relationship so it has merit for us. We're together and married because we want to be, not because we have to be. We got pregnant while engaged, around 9 months prior to our wedding date and discovered it, a month later. Had he not wanted the baby, I would have had Bump on my own and ditched him. That he was deliriously happy, just made our accident a very happy one.

 

You're happy in whatever open arrangement you have which means that non-monogamy has merit for you. But I hope you don't have children since they tend to get traumatized once they find out about open arrangements and in my personal opinion, stability and a secure environment for children come before parents' needs of getting their rocks off.

 

Beyond children, I don't see right and wrong in either situation, only having difficulties with unilateral agreement breaking.

[shadowofman]

If children tend to be traumatized by the realization that their parents are not monogamous, it is solely due to societal stigma.

 

I had a vasectomy when I was 25. There is no way I would ever want to spawn anything.

 

My purpose here is not to argue for or against monogamy. I think everyone on the forums understand my aversion to it. Also that I understand monogamy works for some people. But there are hundreds on this site where monogamy is not working for them. And when almost inevitably hurt by another, they FREAK OUT like its the end of the world. They run away and end their relationships. They beat themselves up. I'm attempting to point out that maybe it's not the other persons problem, but perhaps their own high expectations which cause all that pain.

[shadowofman]

And when I say that monogamy is not working for them, what I mean is that entering into a monogamous relationship is not working out for them. Maybe everyone need to be more non-committal and put walls up. Or at least don't drop them so soon.

[Sazerac]

Shadowofman, I do appreciate your points regarding monogamy and jealousy, but I doubt seriously that most posters at LS have the ability to either cognize or appreciate the point of view.

 

Having said that, I tend to agree with you. Would that everyone would treat each other as fellow immortal souls on similar journeys, without wishing to possess or control the others' actions. Sadly, such is rarely the case.

 

I am fortunate in that my partner of 14 years (yes, we're married) believe similarly. By the very nature of our independent relationship with each other, we have also been monogamous for our entire marriage. In not demanding boundaries of each other, our boundaries have sprung as a natural matter of course, which is the way it should be. During our marriage vows, both of us swore to never exercise "dominance" over the other. My father muttered during the ceremony (my wife actually overheard this) that he "doubted we'd still be married within a year" -- this from a man who failed not one, but two different marriage relationships.

 

We're still together. I imagine it burns him. I don't care.

[shadowofman]

And you should consider yourselves very lucky to have found likeminded partners to get hitched to. With humans, things can change on a dime it seems though. My question to you is, if your wife flipped the script 5 years from now and claimed you were not fullfilling her needs. And she stepped out on your marriage, would you feel entitled to her as property? Most people would and it saddens me. I have felt that way before. It only hurts one's self.

[Sazerac]

And you should consider yourselves very lucky to have found likeminded partners to get hitched to. With humans, things can change on a dime it seems though. My question to you is, if your wife flipped the script 5 years from now and claimed you were not fullfilling her needs. And she stepped out on your marriage, would you feel entitled to her as property? Most people would and it saddens me. I have felt that way before. It only hurts one's self.

 

I cannot say that I would not be hurt or heartbroken, but I would not feel entitled to her as property. She is her own self. I would only hope that she would respect me enough to come to me and tell me if she were having a problem, or if she truly wanted out of the marriage relationship.

[John Michael Kane]

Sorry dude you're just trying to convince yourself and everyone else that being cheated on is no big deal, since it happened to you.

[John Michael Kane]

...and just watch....

 

...he'll probably turn around and get upset and angry at this being pointed out to him....

 

...this is a man who actually had himself "fixed" at age 25 and doesn't understand the significance of that act....he neutered himself....yet he wants to pretend he wasn't horribly damaged by the person who cheated on him...so masochistic that he pined for her for ten years, now she's his very best friend in the world again????

 

How messed up is that!!!

 

...and he wants to give the rest of the world the benefit of his "philosophizing" about how relationships are, and how they should be...

 

It's sad really....he's so damaged that he's just trying to create an impenetrable cocoon....everyone else is wrong...he is right...cheating isn't so bad...having one's heart torn out doesn't really hurt....look I'll prove "I'm a man" and pay a surgeon to rip out my own vas deferens...

 

The OP is a very sick person. He needs therapy.

 

Agreed. Instead of trying to put his own personal problems on everyone else, he should simply face the fact that he got hurt and he has a right to mourn over what happened. Instead of trying to put on a front, acting as if it didn't phase him, he should talk about it to someone, then try and find a woman who will never hurt him that way.

[robdrm32]

OP, i respect your opinion but it seems as though you are using your own experience and insinuating that everyone should be able to apply your methods of thought o their own situations.

 

You used a quote that spoke of ignorance, which we all possess but i would say that you are ignorant to alot yourself.

 

To accredit people's pain of heartbreak to their own irrational thoughts is simplifying things.

 

An example: when i was 18 my g/f slept with one of my best friends and all of my friends knew about it and didn't tell me. My initial reaction was one of possessiveness but it later turned to me not wanting to have anything to do with her or my former friends.

 

The depression that set in as a result i would liken it to losing a limb or body part. I became incapable of certain things, forming relationships, trusting, even enjoying day to day life. Other people would have had different reactions but had that never happened i would be much better off and in much better health today. Basically what your saying is its my fault that i let my friends and g/f horrible actions get to me. when you have bonds with people that are at one point broken, it would be irratinal not to feel hurt.

 

So i attest that you are ignorant to the deep emotions that humans are capable of and your lack of desire to breed and form monogamous relationships is irrational.

 

Irrational is a subjective term, you use it to describe peoples pain and hurt, i use it to describe your stated inability to feel that same pain/hurt. It is those emotions that make us human.