The slavery of our conceit...

[shadowofman]

My anecdote is of my first "girlfriend" relationship. Since then, I have had a few very long term relationships and gone through the ****. The last, a women whom I was with for 8 years, that eventually fell in love with another man, because I told her I didn't own her. It was this opinion of non-ownership that lead her to feel unwanted, and she sought another. A man that was also cheating on her, so she is now my lover again. A very non-ownership situation. And amazingly loving and mutually beneficial. I am merely offering a suggestion to a lifestyle which I have found amazing benefit and what I would call enlightenment. Believe me or not, but this was a long road to get to this point. I appreciate the excellent responses I have received most recently. I ain't no common troll.

[rafallus]

My purpose here is to suggest that jealousy and possessive entitlement are the problem with infidelity!

 

Nah, you can be totally non jealous and non controlling and still get cheated on. Sure, often it is pressure of being controlling that drives to cheat, but not always. Sorry, I don't buy your argument.

[shadowofman]

Actually, no one will ever cheat on me ever again, because I quit the game. There are no rules to break. Yet I still love and am loved.

[sally4sara]

As long as you are going to remain involved with the old flame/relationship who cheated on you, in any significant way--which you clearly are--you block yourself off from ever having a real chance to get together with someone who just might be willing to treat you better than she did, and better than she does.

 

She cheated on you after 8 years because she wanted to, not because you told her you didn't own her. That's actually kind of ridiculous as an explanation for her cheating.

 

Really? I'll agree with the cheating bit; thats unnecessary and dishonest. But I did dump a guy because he didn't believe in monogamy. It wasn't even that he wouldn't practice it. He absolutely did and didn't even try to argue the point. But in theoretical conversations he expressed that he would not end a relationship over a lack of monogamy and if I wanted to have sex with someone else he only expected to be made aware of it beforehand. I couldn't deal with it; it was so foreign to me that I took it for a lack of care and dumped him.

[rafallus]

Oh boy, I missed so much:

 

I had a vasectomy when I was 25. There is no way I would ever want to spawn anything.

 

That puts ****load of perspective into things. But, OTOH, by that admission, your perspective is rendered completely irrelevant for people, who DO WANT to have kids.

 

I mean, sure, live your life how you want it, but don't delude yourself into thinking that your way will work for everyone else.

[sally4sara]

sally I wouldn't compare your ending a relationship with someone else's cheating, the two things are completely different.

 

People cheat because they want to have sex with someone else. When busted they have all kinds of excuses, but when it gets down to it, they have to have a desire to be with the other person, or else they wouldn't be with that person.

 

You dumped your ex because he expressed an attitude towards relationships that you disagreed with and decided you could not be with him any longer. No third party in that picture, at least the way I'm reading it. Completely different IMO.

 

If OP's gf handled things the same way you did she wouldn't have cheated either. She would have just dumped the OP and THEN found a new relationship. But if someone cheats before the end of the relationship, then it's the disclosure of the cheating which is what ends the relationship, not whatever the post-hoc rationalization for the cheating might be.

 

Yes, the way I handled it was better in that I didn't cheat on my way out of the relationship, but I DID have the same bad reaction to what was expressed in honesty by someone who was quite capable of saying "if you want monogamy I can give that to you, if you don't I can also give that to you". I heard his views and it caused an insecurity in me. Back then I did rely on some level of possessiveness for reassurance. I didn't focus on his willingness to keep to a relationship model I DID want. All I heard was he could also keep to a relationship model I was unfamiliar with and made the assumption that he was blowing smoke up my ass and would cheat even though there was no evidence to support that fear. I was younger and less clear thinking on the matter.

Now I'm married to someone who would also try to walk a different relationship model if I super really really wanted to but, like myself, prefers monogamy for its lack of unnecessary drama. He isn't possessive or jealously controlling. He trusts me to deal in honesty as he deals in honesty. And since I see this in his actions rather than just his words, I'm not looking for a door out of my relationship with him like I did to the guy in my past.

 

I'm not trying to say the OP's cheating ex was justified in cheating. I only say I can see why she was shaken about being with him after hearing his views on the matter.

[shadowofman]

I am in love with women (plural) that are in love with other men. How in the world can I be cheated on if I have no expectations? They may leave or ignore me. And yes that would not feel great. But I wouldn't call it "cheating".

[Trimmer]

Interesting discussion, and if this is a "troll," then let there be more of them!

 

What I am suggesting is that people abandon the interest in controlling or owning the individuals they supposedly love.

I take issue with two implicit assumptions that seem to be the foundation of your thesis:

 

(1) what you call possession or ownership within a relationship, which leads to the pain of betrayal, is inherently a bad thing; and

 

(2) this emotional possession and/or ownership has its genesis in a need to control.

 

I suppose I can only speak from personal experience, and I don't propose to perfectly describe everyone else, but I'll say that in my marriage, there was a kind of possession and ownership of each other, and that is, indeed where the pain sprung from when betrayal occurred. But our "ownership" and "possession" came not from someone having taken control of the other - not from the spoils of some conquering - but rather as a result of a gift that we chose to give when we committed to each other. Our possession of each other was a risky gift that we bestowed, willingly, when we came together.

 

And as a result of this offer - "I am yours" - possession wasn't taken, as your comments seem to imply, but rather it was given.

 

So when betrayal occurred, I suppose I could agree with you, in a sense, that the source of pain was within me, and it was surely related to that possession that we had agreed upon. But the fundamental pain didn't come from my loss of control over her. It came from her withdrawl and rejection of our mutual gift.

 

But indeed, it was a natural consequence of the risk we took together. We opened up to each other; we gave ourselves to each other. We allowed ourselves to be possessed by the other - again, not by conquering, but by willing gift. We went "all in", and in doing so, we also risked all.

 

So, in that context, your further comments still make sense:

Or to never become so fully attached to anyone in the first place to the extent that they are able to "tear you in two".

 

How in the world can I be cheated on if I have no expectations?

I find myself in a funny kind of agreement with you, even as I think it's unfortunate that you found yourself with such a jaded outlook so early in your life.

 

I feel like I was lucky to experience that kind of possession, that stripped-raw gift of ownership with another person who transcended everyone else. And in the end, in a way, I even feel a kind of twisted luck that I "got" to experience the consequences of that risky endeavor - I didn't seek the pain, but in the collapse of our marriage, I felt things more intensely and deeply than I ever had before.

 

Having said that, at this point anyway, I can't imagine doing it ever again. I'm not ruling it out, I just don't see it happening, I'm not out seeking it, and it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't come around again. But then, I'm almost 50, and have a happy life, and a couple of awesome kids that I'm so thankful that I've been entrusted with. I had my spin on the carousel, and it brought amazing things to my life. It just wouldn't surprise me if it didnt' come around again, and frankly, yes, it scares me a little bit, and maybe I'm protecting myself from it...

 

But that's not to say I'd counsel that your "no ownership" is the way to have a "safe" relationship. "No expectations?" "never become fully attached?" Your solution is to cut. Keep yourself cut off from attachment; cut your vas deferens. Cut off anything that could lead to a risk of deep emotional exposure, and therefore a risk of pain.

 

Indeed, you and I both got to this point in our lives through pain, and perhaps we're both protecting ourselves as we go forward, but I wouldn't counsel someone that the way to "do" a committed life relationship is to hold back so you aren't at risk. The very best parts of my relationship, which have been some of the very best parts of my life, were specifically because I did put myself at risk.

 

And I still have enough perspective to know that - even though I said it wouldn't surprise me if I never had that kind of committed relationship again - if I do get into one, sure, I'll be a little wiser in the ways of the world, but I would probably go "all in" and take the risk again.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Trimmer

[shadowofman]

Great insights Trimmer. And I find that I fully agree with you. Most relationships do begin not with an intent to control, but a mutual "promise" to "be mine" and I will "be yours". All all the power to the people that still believe this is possible for a sustained period of, say, a lifetime.

 

However, I find that all too often, these relationships do boil down to control (which often tends to exchange back and forth between the partners). A game of who needs who the worst. Or, someone eventually realizes that their emotions led them to make promises that they shouldn't have. Leading me to conclude that such promises are best left alone. One should not sell their future self short, due to the fact that one is not typically realized when the promise is likely made.

 

But it is better to have loved and lost I presume. I plan to love passionately, make no promises, and expect nothing but love in return. I am not sad that I have become "jaded" so young. I am thankful that I have realized the futility in accepting the "gift" of someone's being. Keep you object mind/body for yourself. Use me as I will use you. For as long as we may want to use each other. This makes me happiest.