Problem

[Paulie]

Tony, not to harp on the subject, but I'm gonna give you a little scenario:

 

A guy goes out with a younger girl, he initially gives her a leash, lets her go out with friends, etc. The girl TOTALLY prods and manipulates the guy into believing that thet's not what she wants. All she wants to do is spend time with him. She "loves him to death," "more than her family." She says that if the relationship were ever to end, It'd be because the guy ended it, not her; "I'd never hurt you, baby, the lady says." Because of her apparently undying love for this guy, the guy, after several months, becomes convinced that the girl really does love him, and he lets in, and gives so much of himself to this other person, because she has done so much to break down this wall of caution that he initially had, and agrees to show his emotions to this girl. How can you have true love, unless you're willing to show some vulnerability? Well, at first, this is cool. It works really well, they have a very intimate relationship, etc, etc. The guy (me) never would have gone so deep, or become so vulnerable, unless the girl had never started talking about such things as marraige, love, serious, serious stuff. Well, almost instantly, as soon as she got to europe, I said I missed her, noticed she'd been going out more and more, and I eventually realized she'd been cheating on me (she never told me, but it's completely obvious). And her reason for breaking up with me was that I'm not strong enough around her, she wants a man. Now Tony, my reason for posting this here is not to rehash for the umteenth time my situation with my ex, but to ask the more fundamental issue of --yeah, a man should be a MAN...but if a young girl specifically leads a guty to express so much of himself, and then cheats on him because he's not strong enough, is that messed up? I realize there's a thin line you've gotta follow, but what I was doing at the time that she was saying I was acting like a girl was complaining that I all of a sudden wasn't being called every day, wasn't being told I was loved, etc...after this was the very prescedence that was set before she left for Europe. I also got the feeling she was cheating (she asked me to send her birth control pills, never called me, kept talking about her "friend," Hank, with whom she ate lunch every day, was drinking until 4:00am every night, etc.).

 

Yeah, a man should be a MAN...I'm in full agreement here. But especially at a long distance, where the only way of ascertaining if cheating is going on is to talk to the girl, and the pattern was that we talked EVERY DAY, sometimes twice a day...which she initiated! This pattern had been established, It had already been established that she wanted me to love her so much that I could show my true emotions, and then in Europe, just lets it all go, cheats, etc. Tony...Youre also gonna say something about her childhood...she's been shipped all around the world to boarding schools since the fifth grade, never spoke to her father untill age 13, and the father cheats on the mother. She's done the hardest of drugs at age 15, and has now had about 20 sexual partners at age 21.

 

I got a little sidetracked, but my main question is that...and this is fundamental to the major discussion we've been having here about a MAN being a MAN, is that if a woman does absolutely everything to get a man to express all his emotions, feelings, etc, expresses her undying love, etc, is it sick on her part to do this, and then cheat on him because he's weak? That's a little different that a man just being a weak, needy mess. Sorry for the long post, I just thought it's a question central to our discussion, that we really haven't explored. I'm curious what people think.

[Paulie]

Oh...and my sage neighbor (the one that talks about a man being a "steel pipe," he says that I never should have let it get to the level it did. If I felt coldness from her in Europe, I should go 10 degrees colder. I just think that when you reach a certain level of emotional intimacy, you just stop those games, though, or I guess my ideal love situation would be one where those games wouldn't be played. Maybe that's a sign this girl isn't for me. My neighbor's married to an extremely beuutiful, stable, charming woman, and is one of the coolest people I know (he's 45). He said that you'll always play those little games your entire life, it's just part of relationships. I guess the ideal is to minimize the necessity to do this.

 

[Joe]

I can totally relate to this. This is exactly what happened to me. It is hard. This kind of thing happened to me about a month ago I'm still trying to figure it out. We were together for three years and then one day she tells me she's been cheating on me for a year and dumped me the next day for the roommate. She says she was trapped and that I need to be man, go figure. Woman break down your wall , want you to be more sensitive to them, then go cheat on you because your not a man. I don't get it. It's almost like a game. You give them what they want and then they don't want you anymore. I'm not saying all woman are like this but there are woman out there like this. I think age has a lot to do with it. Maybe not, I don't know. The advice I've been getting is just leave her alone, show her you don't care, though it's hard, it's the best thing to do.

 

Joe

Tony, not to harp on the subject, but I'm gonna give you a little scenario: A guy goes out with a younger girl, he initially gives her a leash, lets her go out with friends, etc. The girl TOTALLY prods and manipulates the guy into believing that thet's not what she wants. All she wants to do is spend time with him. She "loves him to death," "more than her family." She says that if the relationship were ever to end, It'd be because the guy ended it, not her; "I'd never hurt you, baby, the lady says." Because of her apparently undying love for this guy, the guy, after several months, becomes convinced that the girl really does love him, and he lets in, and gives so much of himself to this other person, because she has done so much to break down this wall of caution that he initially had, and agrees to show his emotions to this girl. How can you have true love, unless you're willing to show some vulnerability? Well, at first, this is cool. It works really well, they have a very intimate relationship, etc, etc. The guy (me) never would have gone so deep, or become so vulnerable, unless the girl had never started talking about such things as marraige, love, serious, serious stuff. Well, almost instantly, as soon as she got to europe, I said I missed her, noticed she'd been going out more and more, and I eventually realized she'd been cheating on me (she never told me, but it's completely obvious). And her reason for breaking up with me was that I'm not strong enough around her, she wants a man. Now Tony, my reason for posting this here is not to rehash for the umteenth time my situation with my ex, but to ask the more fundamental issue of --yeah, a man should be a MAN...but if a young girl specifically leads a guty to express so much of himself, and then cheats on him because he's not strong enough, is that messed up? I realize there's a thin line you've gotta follow, but what I was doing at the time that she was saying I was acting like a girl was complaining that I all of a sudden wasn't being called every day, wasn't being told I was loved, etc...after this was the very prescedence that was set before she left for Europe. I also got the feeling she was cheating (she asked me to send her birth control pills, never called me, kept talking about her "friend," Hank, with whom she ate lunch every day, was drinking until 4:00am every night, etc.). Yeah, a man should be a MAN...I'm in full agreement here. But especially at a long distance, where the only way of ascertaining if cheating is going on is to talk to the girl, and the pattern was that we talked EVERY DAY, sometimes twice a day...which she initiated! This pattern had been established, It had already been established that she wanted me to love her so much that I could show my true emotions, and then in Europe, just lets it all go, cheats, etc. Tony...Youre also gonna say something about her childhood...she's been shipped all around the world to boarding schools since the fifth grade, never spoke to her father untill age 13, and the father cheats on the mother. She's done the hardest of drugs at age 15, and has now had about 20 sexual partners at age 21. I got a little sidetracked, but my main question is that...and this is fundamental to the major discussion we've been having here about a MAN being a MAN, is that if a woman does absolutely everything to get a man to express all his emotions, feelings, etc, expresses her undying love, etc, is it sick on her part to do this, and then cheat on him because he's weak? That's a little different that a man just being a weak, needy mess. Sorry for the long post, I just thought it's a question central to our discussion, that we really haven't explored. I'm curious what people think.

[Taressa]

Paulie,

 

I'm not speaking for every woman here... just one woman's take on the subject:

 

In relationships I seek intimacy. I love long evenings talking, cuddling, and gazing in each others eyes. I want to really know the man and what makes him up: his values, dreams, desires, and disappointments. I want to know he cares about mine too.

 

Some men mistake dependent vulnerability for intimacy and do a little role reversal on the woman. I want to know his vulnerabilities but see him carry himself as invincible. I want to know what makes him sad but I don't want him crying on my shoulder; I don't want to play the strong protector role in the relationship.

 

Its the strength and confidence in man that draws me; the intimacy makes me feel specially connected to him, rather like a display of trust.

[BJ]

It's better to be able to hurt than to be one of these superficial people that don't care, and would just go jump in the sack with another girl to satisfy their needs. Sometimes I wish I was one of those people, though, because the pain I experience from manipulative women is overbearing sometimes. But then again if you've got that much of a capacity to hurt, you've also got an equal capacity to love, and experience love.

[Dragonflys]

Hi Paulie

 

I read in a book once that you NEVER know whether your partner loves you or not. Sometimes a person can also think they are in love, but find out they weren't.

 

From what you describe, you did nothing wrong, so you do not need to feel guilty or think that you need to turn to stone. You need approach the next woman in the same way if you believe in yourself.

 

The reward of love is the greatest on earth, I am convinced of that even though I have not been there yet. But no great reward is achieved without having some risk being taken.

 

Take that risk again.

[Dragonflys]

Wow you guys got me thinking about this subject area.

 

Women don't deliberately go out to take down a man's walls so they can then dump him like a sack of spuds...

 

So why do they do it?

 

I think its just the way women are, they are more emotionally open than a lot of men, so they enjoy the open emotional interactions with them. However this can do a relationship damage because the man breaks down his aura of mystery and being a challenge.

 

Like Taressa says, you can tell her what gets you down, just don't ask for her support too much. Many women are traditional and want the support to come from the man.

 

TONY......join in!

[Kerrie]

Tony, not to harp on the subject, but I'm gonna give you a little scenario: A guy goes out with a younger girl, he initially gives her a leash, lets her go out with friends, etc. The girl TOTALLY prods and manipulates the guy into believing that thet's not what she wants. All she wants to do is spend time with him. She "loves him to death," "more than her family." She says that if the relationship were ever to end, It'd be because the guy ended it, not her; "I'd never hurt you, baby, the lady says." Because of her apparently undying love for this guy, the guy, after several months, becomes convinced that the girl really does love him, and he lets in, and gives so much of himself to this other person, because she has done so much to break down this wall of caution that he initially had, and agrees to show his emotions to this girl. How can you have true love, unless you're willing to show some vulnerability? Well, at first, this is cool. It works really well, they have a very intimate relationship, etc, etc. The guy (me) never would have gone so deep, or become so vulnerable, unless the girl had never started talking about such things as marraige, love, serious, serious stuff. Well, almost instantly, as soon as she got to europe, I said I missed her, noticed she'd been going out more and more, and I eventually realized she'd been cheating on me (she never told me, but it's completely obvious). And her reason for breaking up with me was that I'm not strong enough around her, she wants a man. Now Tony, my reason for posting this here is not to rehash for the umteenth time my situation with my ex, but to ask the more fundamental issue of --yeah, a man should be a MAN...but if a young girl specifically leads a guty to express so much of himself, and then cheats on him because he's not strong enough, is that messed up? I realize there's a thin line you've gotta follow, but what I was doing at the time that she was saying I was acting like a girl was complaining that I all of a sudden wasn't being called every day, wasn't being told I was loved, etc...after this was the very prescedence that was set before she left for Europe. I also got the feeling she was cheating (she asked me to send her birth control pills, never called me, kept talking about her "friend," Hank, with whom she ate lunch every day, was drinking until 4:00am every night, etc.). Yeah, a man should be a MAN...I'm in full agreement here. But especially at a long distance, where the only way of ascertaining if cheating is going on is to talk to the girl, and the pattern was that we talked EVERY DAY, sometimes twice a day...which she initiated! This pattern had been established, It had already been established that she wanted me to love her so much that I could show my true emotions, and then in Europe, just lets it all go, cheats, etc. Tony...Youre also gonna say something about her childhood...she's been shipped all around the world to boarding schools since the fifth grade, never spoke to her father untill age 13, and the father cheats on the mother. She's done the hardest of drugs at age 15, and has now had about 20 sexual partners at age 21. I got a little sidetracked, but my main question is that...and this is fundamental to the major discussion we've been having here about a MAN being a MAN, is that if a woman does absolutely everything to get a man to express all his emotions, feelings, etc, expresses her undying love, etc, is it sick on her part to do this, and then cheat on him because he's weak? That's a little different that a man just being a weak, needy mess. Sorry for the long post, I just thought it's a question central to our discussion, that we really haven't explored. I'm curious what people think.

As they get older, most women realise eventually that a real man is someone who can show his emotions. No, you were not weak. She sounds awfully young (not in years, in emotional maturity). I don't know about sick, but it sure is lame of her to have treated you this way and then blame you 'being weak' when in actual fact it is quite obvious that she has problems with loyality, commitment and possibly some sort of power struggle going on (seemed she wore you down and when she knew she had you she went for the kill).

 

You won't be the last. She will probably wind up with some arrogant mysoginist (sp??) as it seems she may need a little arrogance to keep her interested. Move on and don't listen to the weak crap - being able to feel and express those feelings is a beautiful quality that many women would love their man to have.

[The Truth]

When was it over man? Why did she go to Europe? I'd be interested in more of the details if you cared to share them.....

 

There's a song, by Bob Dylan called " It ain't me babe". I don't know if you've heard it.......but you should check it out...Dylan knows exactly what your talking about.....as do I.

 

I have trouble with the whole "MAN" issue myself. It's tough to say what being a man really means. I agree with those who said that maturity may be an issue here. Also, intelligence, I think.

 

You sound like a smart guy, don't assume that eveyone is. There are so many kinds of love.....and it means something unique for almost everyone....

 

To me, I think, your girl was playing her 'role' of the 'girl'.....looking for a guy to play the 'role' of the 'man'. To her, the emotions she showed were not sincere.....she was just playing her part. She doesn't have either the maturity or intelligence to really appreciate the type of spiritual love that you seeked....and gave.

 

She was simply in love with your illusion.

 

In the words of my favorite philosopher Fredrick Nietzsche:

 

"405 Masks

 

There are women who,however you may search them, prove to have no content but are purely masks. The man who associates with such almost spectral, neccesarily unsatasfied beings is to be commiserated with, yet it is precisely they who are able to arouse the desire of the man most strongly: he seeks for her soul-and goes on seeking"

 

"432 Disharmony of Concords

 

Women want to serve and in that they discover their happiness; and the free spirit wants not to be served and in that he discovers his happiness"

[Tony T]

Yes, it is sick. But she didn't cheat on you because you were weak and showed your emotions. She is just not a very nice person, or rather she is a nice person who has some very bad qualities.

 

She is deceitful, manipulative, disloyal, dishonest, etc.

 

You are simply going to have to learn in life that there are many many people, male and female, who will do things that just don't make sense. You must learn that humanity has evolved to a place where morals and ethics are the exception rather than the rule. Many people do what is most convenient for them to do at the time...rather than what is moral and ethical. Many have never been taught honesty, intergrity. Yes, this girl's background was pretty sleezy and frightening and I doubt she got much moral training. It's like an animal living in the jungle, doing whatever is necessary for survival.

 

I am really disappointed that you are continuing to analyze this because people will always behave in ways you will not understand. I am so very sorry this has happened to you but, again, you are much better served by dropping the matter than by obsessing with why this girl did this or that. She did it because she did it. She simply doesn't are about anybody but herself. I would have to personally interview her for several hours to see why this is so. But a LOT of people are like that.

 

Further, I want to emphasize that this is NOT a discussion of the differences between MAN and WOMAN but the differences between YOU and this very poor excuse of a GIRL. Everybody is different and every situation is unique. It is just not a good practice to make generalizations about anything except the most basic human behaviors because people are highly complex.

 

However, in a general way, there are certain things about females...and about males...which I advance here for everybody's consideration, acceptance or rejection.

 

AGAIN, THIS OLD GAL OF YOURS IS A 100 PERCENT SICKIE PSHYCHO!!! In psychology, they call them sociopaths.

[Paulie]

Pretty damn good dude. Absolutely awesome insight. I printed "It ain't me, babe" and hung it on my bulletin board in my office.

yeah...she went to Europe to spend the summer with her family at this really plush home they have over there. They're loaded, and extremely materialistic. But the thing is...the guy she's seeing in europe is...by her description...nothing special, just good looking, and "strong.

 

We broke up...like end of July, and we saw each other last week when she came back to school...which, in my mind ultimately brought closure.

 

I really just miss her, spent 3 years with her, lived with her, hate thinking about her having sex with other guys, especially when we spent so many times that to me were so special, spiritual, meaningful. The thing I'm coming to terms with is that she's incapable of experiencing these things in the same way as I do, due to no fault of her own. Her parents never taught her committment, love, stability, etc.

 

Thanks for the post, man..great stuff, really!

[Deejette]

In the old days, when I used to mistreat men something the way your ex-grilfriend did to you, I was surprised at the high tolernce level these men had towards my behavior. It would have taught me much more, if they turned their backs on me and showed me they had dignity and boundaries.

Yes, it is sick. But she didn't cheat on you because you were weak and showed your emotions. She is just not a very nice person, or rather she is a nice person who has some very bad qualities.

 

She is deceitful, manipulative, disloyal, dishonest, etc. You are simply going to have to learn in life that there are many many people, male and female, who will do things that just don't make sense. You must learn that humanity has evolved to a place where morals and ethics are the exception rather than the rule. Many people do what is most convenient for them to do at the time...rather than what is moral and ethical. Many have never been taught honesty, intergrity. Yes, this girl's background was pretty sleezy and frightening and I doubt she got much moral training. It's like an animal living in the jungle, doing whatever is necessary for survival. I am really disappointed that you are continuing to analyze this because people will always behave in ways you will not understand. I am so very sorry this has happened to you but, again, you are much better served by dropping the matter than by obsessing with why this girl did this or that. She did it because she did it. She simply doesn't are about anybody but herself. I would have to personally interview her for several hours to see why this is so. But a LOT of people are like that. Further, I want to emphasize that this is NOT a discussion of the differences between MAN and WOMAN but the differences between YOU and this very poor excuse of a GIRL. Everybody is different and every situation is unique. It is just not a good practice to make generalizations about anything except the most basic human behaviors because people are highly complex. However, in a general way, there are certain things about females...and about males...which I advance here for everybody's consideration, acceptance or rejection. AGAIN, THIS OLD GAL OF YOURS IS A 100 PERCENT SICKIE PSHYCHO!!! In psychology, they call them sociopaths.