Is the damage repairable?

[almostsingle]

Hi, this is my first post here. I'm having a really hard time and I'm hoping to find some insight. I'll start with a little background.

Wife and I have been together 10 years, married for 5, with 2 children. The first year was great, but the last 4 have been really rocky. There was infidelity on sides a few years back, and I don't think that we ever fully recovered from that. The was always trust issues, and the communication fell apart. We also experienced alot of financial problems which added to the stress.

 

My wife has some emotional instability. She has been diagnosed with anxiety and depression. I have done some research on BPD and even though she has not been diagnosed with it, I think that she shows signs of the disorder.

 

We seperated last summer for 3 months. We got back together, it lasted about 5 months. the first month or so was great, but things quickly started slipping again.

 

She left almost 4 months ago, I filled for divorce within a week if her leaving.

We are still in the begging stages of the legal side of things. The temporary orders have not even been negotiated yet.

 

I was doing fine without her, I was actually starting to enjoy single life. Then last weekend she told me that she still loves me. We ended up talking for a few hours, and kissed goodbye. Earlier this week she stayed at the house for a few days. We ended up being intimate, and it was unbelievable. I still love her intensely.

 

Throughout our marriage we have both hurt each other quite a bit. We have spent many hours talking over the past week. We both still love each other, but we are both afraid that we will get hurt again.

 

At what point do you say enough is enough? I know the only real way to find out if we can make it work is to try. But I don't want to try I want to know that it will work, or not. I know it will take time, but how much time do you allow? Meanwhile, I am still making monthly payment to my divorce attorney.

[Yasuandio]

Make sure you didn't do the hysterical bonding thing.

 

Then, if you really love her, pay off the GD attorney and put your heart into it you jerk. You can't have your cake and eat it too. What the eff do you think you are pulling off here? "I am intensely in love with my wife," I am making love with my wife, I am giving my wife the impression of the aformentioned? But, there is a back-up plan in the works, just in case.

 

You know what's going to happen to you? This whole thing is going to backfire and blow up in your face and you effing deserve it. Because.......what you put out into the Universe is what you will get back. Basic Quantum Physics 101. Enjoy.

[TaraMaiden]

The tripod* is badly damaged.

Her mental issues are almost certainly as a result of the upheaval and dysfunction of your relationship to begin with.

 

You need to find a good relationships counsellor, and see them together, and also see individual counsellors to build up your (both) confidence and self-esteem, dignity and inner strength.

 

Counsellors will NOT do this for you.

Neither will counsellors be a guarantee that this thing can be saved.

But if you both want it enough, and you are both willing to work at it together, equally, on the same footing, with 100% effort - you might - just MIGHT - be able to pull it back from the abyss.

 

Never apportion Blame.

Always take - and accept - responsibility for your share of maintaining the relationship.

 

Which is 100% of 50%.

 

*Marriage Tripod:

Trust

Effective Communication

Respect (both for self and Partner)

[almostsingle]

Make sure you didn't do the hysterical bonding thing.

 

Then, if you really love her, pay off the GD attorney and put your heart into it you jerk. You can't have your cake and eat it too. What the eff do you think you are pulling off here? "I am intensely in love with my wife," I am making love with my wife, I am giving my wife the impression of the aformentioned? But, there is a back-up plan in the works, just in case.

 

You know what's going to happen to you? This whole thing is going to backfire and blow up in your face and you effing deserve it. Because.......what you put out into the Universe is what you will get back. Basic Quantum Physics 101. Enjoy.

 

You have obviously never been close to , or loved some one that has a personality disorder.

[robf1971]

You have obviously never been close to , or loved some one that has a personality disorder.

 

Sorry but they are all diagnosed with depression or anxiety. I've has severe derpression and anxiety several years ago but it didn't make me start sh*tting on the people I love

[MT152]

In my opinion, all situations are salvageable. You two obviously are still in love with each other in my opinion. It just sometimes the comfortability between you guys probably causes you two to undermine one another causing those disagreements and arguments you have described. If you want to make this work, please talk it out between you two in a serious talk. I know it sounds so simple but if you get your point across it can definitely be solved with the help of two of you. I really wished I would have SERIOUSLY sat down with my ex and talked to her, but instead we hinted in subtle ways of changes we wanted. The only time we really let out what we really wanted from one another is during arguments when we aren't prepared to listen anyways.. Do it in a peaceful, subtle time and you will probably be given good results.

[YellowShark]

At what point do you say enough is enough?

 

That point is when the bad outweighs the good.

 

Sit down and make a list about what's good about your relationship, and then make a list about what's bad about it. If the bad is greater than the good then maybe it's time to put this relationship to rest and move on with your life.

[almostsingle]

Thanks for the responses. I have been going back and forth for a week. The problem is, when she is good she is incredible, but when she gets down she turns into the wicked witch of the west. Sometimes stress or other external things trigger her mood swings, but sometimes it seems like there is no reason for her it at all.

When she is not doing good, something as simple as asking her if she knows where my shoes are can lead to a fight.

The more I read about BPD, the more she fits the bill. I'm not sure if it is a result of our marital problems, or if our problems are a result of her issues

I know that I'm not perfect, and there was alot of things that I could have done differently. But I do recognize that many of my actions were a result of the way she treated me.

 

I know she has a problem, she knows that she has a problem and is the first one to admit it. I'm just trying to decide if I can live with her problems, if she can get the help she really needs and keep her instability in check, or if I should just cut my loses and run. Life is way to short to be miserable.

[trippi1432]

Hi, this is my first post here. I'm having a really hard time and I'm hoping to find some insight. I'll start with a little background.

Wife and I have been together 10 years, married for 5, with 2 children. The first year was great, but the last 4 have been really rocky. There was infidelity on sides a few years back, and I don't think that we ever fully recovered from that. The was always trust issues, and the communication fell apart. We also experienced alot of financial problems which added to the stress.[/Quote]

 

If you read the posts above, those issues can cause anxiety and depression. People are not born with anxiety and depression, it happens as events happen in our lives and we don't have the coping skills perfected to deal with them yet...that is why counseling helps to establish those coping skills and anxiety and depression are treatable and go away in time with help.

 

My wife has some emotional instability. She has been diagnosed with anxiety and depression. I have done some research on BPD and even though she has not been diagnosed with it, I think that she shows signs of the disorder.

 

Please don't try and diagnose your wife with a personality disorder unless you are a trained psychologist. Understandable that men want to identify and "fix"...but what she needs from you is understanding and patience...just as you need from her. If a psychologist diagnoses BPD, then the two of you should sit down with that psychologist and figure out how to handle the diagnosis together. If you treat her like a threat due to the anxiety and depression, you will most likely reap what you sow on the trust issues. If you truly want to help on those diagnosed issues, read up on anxiety and depression and try not to be a trigger while she is recovering from them....but please do not throw out other ideas of what you "think" she might be.

 

Throughout our marriage we have both hurt each other quite a bit. We have spent many hours talking over the past week. We both still love each other, but we are both afraid that we will get hurt again.

 

Of course you are both going to feel like this, you haven't worked out all the issues that got you both here in the first place. Infidelity leads to mistrust and it's going to follow you in any future relationships as well until you deal with them. Work on the communication skills with each other and you can work through the trust and hurt issues.

 

At what point do you say enough is enough? I know the only real way to find out if we can make it work is to try. But I don't want to try I want to know that it will work, or not. I know it will take time, but how much time do you allow? Meanwhile, I am still making monthly payment to my divorce attorney.

 

When do you say enough is enough? If you truly love each other....never.

 

You have this part right, the only way to find out is to try....but you don't want to try, you want to know....there are no guarantees in life. She is your wife still and you are her husband...I would say if you are still in love with one another, perhaps it's worth it to put some work into....that is trying...and it has no timetable.

[almostsingle]

trippi1432, Thank you. You have put some things into perspective for me, and given me alot to think about.

Thinking about the course of our marriage has made me realize something.

About 4 years ago her Dad was killed in an accident. Thats when things started going down hill. I tried to be the loving supportive husband. But it's hard to be supportive when you are being pushed away.

[Kriss]

But I don't want to try I want to know that it will work, or not.

 

This is what is holding you back.

[TaraMaiden]

This is what is holding you back.

 

This is why I gave the advice I did.

It's going to take work - and it's going to take committed work, from both of you.

[Downtown]

She has been diagnosed with anxiety and depression.

Only a professional can determine whether the traits are so severe as to meet the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. It nonetheless is easy to spot the red flags when a woman exhibits strong BPD traits. Even before you graduated high school, you could spot strong selfishness and grandiosity -- without diagnosing Narcissistic PD. You could easily identify the class show off -- without diagnosing Histrionic PD. And you could spot all the extremely shy classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Likewise, you can easily spot strong occurrences of BPD traits in a woman you've been with for 10 years. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about verbal abuse, temper tantrums, black-white thinking, lack of trust, lack of impulse control, and low self esteem.

I want to know that it will work, or not. I know it will take time, but how much time do you allow?

It likely will take you forever if you wait to get a diagnosis from a psychologist. IME, waiting for a diagnosis is a disastrous course of action for a nonBPD spouse like you. One reason is that it is unlikely your W will agree to seek therapy. BPDers have such weak egos that they generally are very resistant to seeking therapy.

 

Second, even if she agrees to go, there is little chance she will remain in therapy long enough to help. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.

 

Third, even if she goes to therapy a few times, there is a good chance the therapist will not spot the BPD traits because BPDers are excellent actors. Because a BPDer has only a fragile sense of who she is, she has been acting every time she walked into a group of people since childhood. Hence, she won't even break a sweat to act in front of a therapist seeing her once a week for 50 minutes.

 

Fourth, even if the therapist sees her long enough to identify the BPD, he probably will not tell the true diagnosis to her (much less you). He knows that she almost certainly will immediately terminate therapy on hearing such a dreaded diagnosis. He also knows that labelling her disorder "BPD" means insurance won't cover it because nearly all insurance companies claim (falsely) that it is untreatable. And he knows that, by calling it "anxiety" and "depression" -- side effects all BPDers have -- it will be covered by insurance and will not offend the client.

 

Fifth, in the very unlikely event she agrees to stay in therapy at your insistence, she probably will just play mind games with the therapist instead of working on her issues. I took my exW to six different psychologists for weekly visits over 15 years -- all to no avail. Insurance covered half because the psychologists were smart enough to list it as "anxiety," "depression," and "possible PTSD." Even so, I spent over $200,000 above the amount covered by insurance.

 

For the first half of the 15 years, I was patient and forgiving because I knew she had to get worse before she got better (i.e., she would be getting in touch with painful childhood memories of being molested by her dad). For the last half of that period, I somehow convinced myself she was getting better. But how could I possibly know? As you must be aware, an unstable woman alternates every week or two between "getting worse" and "getting better." And, when an unstable woman is acting good, she is very, VERY, VERY good.

 

Sixth, there is nothing you can do to help her if she has strong BPD traits. BPDers have the emotional development of a four year old. Teaching them how to manage their emotions and how to trust requires expert guidance. Even the psychologists cannot help, however, if she does not want to change herself. As to marriage counseling, that likely will be a waste of time until she has had several years of individual therapy to address the damage she has carried from early childhood. If she has only mild BPD traits, however, MC may be helpful.

 

To validate your judgment, I would encourage you to have a few sessions -- on your own -- with a clinical psychologist. Without your W there (at least in initial visits), he is far more likely to speak candidly about what you are likely dealing with. I also encourage you to continue educating yourself about BPD. If you would like to read more about it on this forum, I suggest you read my description of what it is like to live with a BPDer (i.e., person having strong BPD traits) -- as I did for 15 years.

 

My two posts in Cy's thread start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/show...91#post3417491. If that discussion rings a bell, you may want to read my four posts in GreenEyedRebel's thread, which start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/show...35#post3398735. Those posts also provide links to articles on BPD written by professionals. If you have any questions about those discussions or your W's behavior, I would be glad to try to answer them. Take care, Almost.

[almostsingle]

Thank you Downtown. Your post is very informative, and I will read through the other posts that you suggested.

Many of the things you mentioned fit her very well, low self esteem, lack of impulse control(especially when she is upset)..... The things that don't seem to fit is that she is the first to admit that she has a problem, and as far as I know there was no childhood trauma, and I know her family pretty well and I can't imagine any sort of abuse going on.

I was planning on seeing a counselor, but maybe I will take your suggestion and see a clinical psychologist.

[almostsingle]

The bottom line is that she has some sort of problem, whether it is BPD, anxiety, depression, or something else. She has seen counselor's and psychiatrists, and has been prescribed a handful of different medications. One psychiatrist diagnosed her with adult ADD, and told her that anxiety and depression go along with that.

 

I also need to mention that there is a bit of family history of mental illness. Her Mother and Sister are both on medication, but I'm not sure what they are diagnosed with, and there was even some schizophrenia up the family tree a few generations.

 

What I am trying to figure out is if this is something that I can deal with or even want to deal with, or if I should just move on. Life is way to short to be miserable, and the last few years with her have been just that. I'd like to tell myself that with help she can get better, and we can be happy together, but I just don't know if that can or will happen.

[trippi1432]

My wife has some emotional instability. She has been diagnosed with anxiety and depression. I have done some research on BPD and even though she has not been diagnosed with it, I think that she shows signs of the disorder.

 

Only a professional can determine whether the traits are so severe as to meet the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD.

 

There is nothing subtle or nuanced about verbal abuse, temper tantrums, black-white thinking, lack of trust, lack of impulse control, and low self esteem.It likely will take you forever if you wait to get a diagnosis from a psychologist. IME, waiting for a diagnosis is a disastrous course of action for a nonBPD spouse like you. One reason is that it is unlikely your W will agree to seek therapy. BPDers have such weak egos that they generally are very resistant to seeking therapy.

 

AlmostSingle - Please...do you also know from this research that BPD has the highest suicide rate...and that by trying to medically diagnose someone who is under treatment or suggest to them that they have something even worse wrong with them is both mentally and emotionally abusive?

 

SO DOWNTOWN...INSTEAD OF PROJECTING YOUR EXPERIENCE ACROSS THIS BOARD OF MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS BECAUSE YOUR WIFE HAD THIS...PLEASE...WHY DON'T YOU TRY STARTING AN ORIGINAL THREAD TO LET US ALL KNOW YOUR STORY INSTEAD OF SPREADING WARNINGS ACROSS LS THAT ALL WOMEN HAVE BPD?

 

*Is thinking I'm sure that I probably have BPD now that I typed that in all caps...that was pretty impulsive...sigh..sh*t..I was trying...I really was..wait...was that a mood swing..I think it might have been...oh Gawd...now I am talking to myself...wtf????* Hmm, I didn't see smart-a**itis as a condition of BPD...is that a different personality disorder? Oh wait..could be NPD...hmm....could be just sick of it....or wait..could be labeled P/A...dam*, I just can't win...damn my vag*ina. :laugh:

 

AlmostSingle....I'm not trying to downplay your situation or what you want to figure out..but honestly..a woman gets her period and men think they are nuts. If you don't want to work on the marriage and the issues almostsingle then don't...simple as that....walk away. Instead of trying to find a reason other than yourselves is futile. Quit trying to label her to take the blame off of both of you...there was a lot more going on before her anxiety and depression issues....

Edited May 31, 2011 by trippi1432
hmm....forgot to add something...pondering....

[Yasuandio]

Trippi, did it ever occur to you that "projecting" may be a diagnostic component of BPD? Of course, I'm not an expert on these matters like "Downtown." Everytime I spot that city scape logo, the repeated content and advice strike me as an advertisement and/or commercialism. Therefore, I just block it out like an ad for Pampers or Viagra. But, for the record, I just want to say, "I love New York! :bunny::bunny::bunny:Yas

[Logik]

I know she has a problem, she knows that she has a problem and is the first one to admit it. I'm just trying to decide if I can live with her problems, if she can get the help she really needs and keep her instability in check, or if I should just cut my loses and run. Life is way to short to be miserable.

 

BPD you say. What does "in sickness and in health" mean to you? Are you like my ex who says that those vows were nothing more than just words? That a marriage is just like any other relationship and the only difference is that you get to stand in front of a room of people and say it? And "for better or for worse" and "'til death do us part"? I don't remember there being any clause in marriage vows saying that "or until I change my mind", or changing the meaning of the words like "oh, the marriage died, that's the death part".

 

If you just wanna go because you can't take it, then you shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. Some people can get married and some people can't. Maybe you're the latter. Nobody can make you happy. Only you can. Spouses aren't there to ensure your happiness. They're there to enrich your life and be a partner in a family environment. Running around looking for excuses for why you're miserable, like her BPD, is just shifting the blame to someone else for your unhappiness.

 

Maybe you should just move on. And please, don't get married again to make yourself happy. Just my opinion.

[Logik]

Oh, and to answer your original question in the post, Yes. It is repairable. It's about mutual support and remembering why you got married in the first place. I know situations change, but you need to adapt and grow together. Not pull each other's imperfections apart.

[almostsingle]

 

*Is thinking I'm sure that I probably have BPD now that I typed that in all caps...that was pretty impulsive...sigh..sh*t..I was trying...I really was..wait...was that a mood swing..I think it might have been...oh Gawd...now I am talking to myself...wtf????* Hmm, I didn't see smart-a**itis as a condition of BPD...is that a different personality disorder? Oh wait..could be NPD...hmm....could be just sick of it....or wait..could be labeled P/A...dam*, I just can't win...damn my vag*ina. :laugh:

.

 

 

Thanks for the good laugh.

 

And thanks for the advice. I have not convinced myself that she has BPD, and I know that I am nowhere near qualified to try to diagnose it.

Everytime I try to explain what I went through with her the only people that truly seem to understand are those who have experience with someone who has BPD.

[almostsingle]

BPD you say. What does "in sickness and in health" mean to you? Are you like my ex who says that those vows were nothing more than just words? That a marriage is just like any other relationship and the only difference is that you get to stand in front of a room of people and say it? And "for better or for worse" and "'til death do us part"? I don't remember there being any clause in marriage vows saying that "or until I change my mind", or changing the meaning of the words like "oh, the marriage died, that's the death part".

 

If you just wanna go because you can't take it, then you shouldn't have gotten married in the first place. Some people can get married and some people can't. Maybe you're the latter. Nobody can make you happy. Only you can. Spouses aren't there to ensure your happiness. They're there to enrich your life and be a partner in a family environment. Running around looking for excuses for why you're miserable, like her BPD, is just shifting the blame to someone else for your unhappiness.

 

Maybe you should just move on. And please, don't get married again to make yourself happy. Just my opinion.

 

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly in my original post. SHE MOVED OUT, and told me that she was done and that I should go ahead and file for divorce while she was walking out the door. I asked her to stay, I asked her to give it a chance and go to counselling. But when I found out that she moved 300 miles away with my children I had to do something to get them back, so I filled for divorce, and am working on an order to have them returned to the maritial home.

Now she wants to come back.

 

Logik, I do appreciate your advice in your second post. Thank you for that

Edited June 1, 2011 by almostsingle
add inof

[Logik]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly in my original post. SHE MOVED OUT, and told me that she was done and that I should go ahead and file for divorce while she was walking out the door. I asked her to stay, I asked her to give it a chance and go to counselling. But when I found out that she moved 300 miles away with my children I had to do something to get them back, so I filled for divorce, and am working on an order to have them returned to the maritial home.

Now she wants to come back.

 

Logik, I do appreciate your advice in your second post. Thank you for that

 

Sorry, I probably misunderstood or maybe skimmed past that part.

[trippi1432]

Thanks for the good laugh.

 

And thanks for the advice. I have not convinced myself that she has BPD, and I know that I am nowhere near qualified to try to diagnose it.

Everytime I try to explain what I went through with her the only people that truly seem to understand are those who have experience with someone who has BPD.

 

Anytime

 

I can understand how it is easy to relate to other's who have had similar experiences, I can relate some of those traits to my exH and even to myself and my own children. The thing about disorders is that many of the named disorders out there have all these similar symptoms. Even if all the symptoms are there, some may even be less pronounced than others and still be a different disorder altogether.

 

A lot of people think that BPD is mainly attributable to women, in fact, it is about 50/50 these days. There are less documented cases of men having BPD due to the disorder getting "labeled" NPD...seems that there is even some sexism in the labeling of disorders themselves. At best, the latest work in the field is to link every disorder to the Bipolar spectrum as a degree of Bipolar disorder. Psychiatry is not a perfect world nor are the people who work in the field perfect in diagnosing effectively in every case.

 

I would say that it is up to you to decide if the marriage is worth working on and if a recon is what you both want. If you are looking for help in that area, look up the sites Marriage Builders and Divorce Busting. They give valuable information there on working on rebuilding a marriage and much of their advice is used here on LS. Read up and keep posting here, many people are here to help where they can.

[Downtown]

A lot of people think that BPD is mainly attributable to women, in fact, it is about 50/50 these days.

Trippi, yes, that is my understanding too. A 2008 study of nearly 35,000 American adults found about 6% having a lifetime incidence of BPD (at the full diagnostic level), with the percentage being the same for both men and women. The only explanation I've ever seen for the decades-old view that 2/3 of BPDers are women is that therapists were wrongly diagnosing the men as having Antisocial PD. But that cannot explain why the male BPDers are so scarce online. If you go to the BPD websites targeted to BPDers, you will find the vast majority of members to be women. Hence, if the 2008 study finding is correct, it appears men are much less likely to want to talk about it online.