The best post i have ever seen on affairs. READ

[bentnotbroken]

What is "true wub"?

 

What exactly are you? I mean I get your soapbox speech and that you are against the lying and cheating involved with affairs. And since you I think would safely agree that that is part and parcel in an affair, then one would surmise you are anti-affair, correct?

 

It is okay, you can admit it, the water is warm, come on in.

 

All kidding aside, in thinking is there a reason you would not want to say you are anti-affair? Just pondering?

 

 

No reason at all. Whether I utter the words( * said breathlessly* affair or *said with a stamp of my feet and a roar in my voice* anti) or not will not change my view of what happens in the dynamic of two people lying to be all solemated or your view of me and my soap box. If anti affair is good for you, then it is more than good for me.

[donnamaybe]

No donna, I have never said that. If I have, can you please cite it for me so I can explain or apologize.

What does it mean then? How can one POSSIBLY post in a "discussion" forum and be completely neutral?

[Got it]

***********

 

Again, I didn't think you were in tears. You were "sounding" upset but thinking I was singling you out which I wasn't doing. You have posted the most in regards to mine so I have been posting in response back.

 

I guess I was reading you as sounding defensive and that is what I was trying to comment back. If that is not the case, mea culpa.

[Silly_Girl]

What does it mean then? How can one POSSIBLY post in a "discussion" forum and be completely neutral?

 

Why on earth not???

[donnamaybe]

Well her post did make me realize I'm not neutral........but it also made me realize that neither is she, nor anyone else here.

 

We bring our views, opinions, experiences.......so it's NOT neutral. If everyone was neutral......there would be few threads.

Yeah, with all the VERY lengthy posts filled with personal slights, one can accurately assess that there is certainly no neutrality going on.

[NoIDidn't]

Well her post did make me realize I'm not neutral........but it also made me realize that neither is she, nor anyone else here.

 

We bring our views, opinions, experiences.......so it's NOT neutral. If everyone was neutral......there would be few threads.

 

No one that posts here is neutral. I don't even know why someone would use that against someone.

 

There have been some posters that have been NON-JUDGMENTAL but even they weren't neutral. The problem is with the posters that are judgmental be they for or against affairs. And the people that are for affairs rarely ever see just how uber-judgmental they often come across. They are here judging the marriage, the W or exW (if I read how crazy someone's ex W is again, I think I'm going to explode! lol), or all the friends that had the nerve to say something honest to them about their actions in the affair.

 

Its a field day in here with the finger pointing from one camp unable to see how many of those fingers they are pointing back at themselves.

 

No one is neutral and just about all pass judgment on others.

[Spark1111]

Many years ago I earned as a journalist that if 8 people witness a car accident, you will have 8 differing versions.

 

Some versions may overlap in similiarity; some will differ radically.

 

Everyone perceives the truth from their personal perspective.

 

That's human nature. And LS, too.

[Silly_Girl]

Many years ago I earned as a journalist that if 8 people witness a car accident, you will have 8 differing versions.

 

Some versions may overlap in similiarity; some will differ radically.

 

Everyone perceives the truth from their personal perspective.

 

That's human nature. And LS, too.

 

That's very true, only here we're not even witnessing the SAME incident, most of us are witnessing several different ones that no one else on LS has witnessed.

[donnamaybe]

And what does that mean??

Maybe that no discussion should take place - at all.

[MissBee]

Miss Bee - I have to say I agree 100% with the first part of your post. You are absolutely right, both sides need to address and acknowledge that their beliefs, experiences, etc color and skew their perspective. And that one may "read more into" what is being said/written than what is actually there.

 

In regards to commonality in affairs. I guess I always come back to what is common in relationships in general? While there is a wide spectrum of what is done and not done I think the norm/middle ground is pretty run of the mill and boring. From my experience, and I cannot speak for others, it really wasn't too different than relationships in the past. I guess from not having much involvements or knowledge of protocol in affairs I missed out on the FAQs and expectations. So I went with what I knew from dating in the past and proceeded as such.

 

I was thinking more about this and what I have found very interesting is those that are "anti-affair" have a very similar stance and tactic, in my observation, as those that are anti-abortions. There is the rolling out of religion and social mayhem/misconduct. There is the generalization of those that support the right to choose as being pro-abortion/affair, and there are the many cited stories of things going wrong, basic doom and gloom.

And maybe that is the crux of the issue. Maybe those perceived as "pro-affairs" are really just arguing the right to choose or at least a more grey acknowledgement to the decision of it which does not necessarily mean that one is going around promoting abortions or affairs. Affairs, like abortions, can have horror stories attached to them as well as not horror stories (for lack of a better term).

 

Thoughts? And the ball is looped back to you . . .

 

 

I am all for people's right to choose....but am also glad that there are certain things people are banned from choosing, as if left up to their own devises, with everyone picking and choosing as they saw fit, it would be a mess.

 

As to affairs....the reality is that one cannot ban someone from having an affair, although maybe in some societies adultery is still a crime. One cannot ban someone from being a liar, unscrupulous or any such thing (albeit such traits can lead you into other activities that do get you into trouble). I will never fight for the rights of someone to be able to engage in betrayal, but I am well aware that people are free to do it and if an anti-affair bill was to be voted on, I most likely would not vote for it. I however, do not believe it is a "cause" like abortion rights, gay rights, civil rights etc. All those things have relevancy to some type of basic right or people suffer unfair oppression due to negative and prejudicial opinions about it....as for affairs? I mean I just feel completely ridiculous trying to discuss people's right to choose an affair. Of course you can choose to have an affair....but I'm sorry is this supposed to be some cause? Are you (plural) being oppressed because people would rather you not sleep with their spouse or is a spouse being oppressed because his or her partner would rather not be lied to?

 

My mother always told me: " Not everything that you"re free to do is good for you to do"....and it was some wise advice.

 

 

That's the crux for me....I cannot really get down with viewing affairs as some "cause"....it's not a cause. You can do it or not do it and as an individual, that is up to you. But setting it up as some type of cause is ridiculous IMO. There are far more pressing matters on earth that require fighting for than this. The crux for me as I stated in another post is about the lying, betrayal, deceit that are part and parcel with affairs....if an affair does not include any of those...then it is not an affair. Would you agree? There are many ways to sleep with someone's spouse, have a relationship etc that don't include the above. I am all for people having alternative lifestyles that include liaisons with others so long as everything is out in the open. That's all it is for me. How can one sweep aside those aspects?

 

 

Got it...your stance is peculiar and interesting to me. I do differentiate between people like myself and others who "find" themselves in affairs, it's not ideal and they don't like that it is that way versus those who see affairs as an actual alternative style of living that one can choose just like one would choose to date tall men or some such.

 

 

Regardless of your religious affiliation and so forth, I think most people would rather not be lied to and jerked around by someone they trust. I expected that was common decency. I can argue and see both sides to many a scenario, but to common decency, I don't think you can break it down any further. If anyone can offer me a great explanation as to how you get around the deceit of cheating and affairs and are able to view it as a great choice if you so desire...then by all means, I would like to hear it.

 

Also Got It, if the world was yours to organize, what would be the golden rule for you or what would be the tenets of common decency?

[Silly_Girl]

And what does that mean??

 

Not sure which part you didn't understand. The 'version of events' will differ, even when discussing the same incident. The version of events will differ massively when we're describing totally different events. You have 2 affair experiences really, i.e. Knowing and Not knowing. They'll be different from the off. I'm simply saying that the chances of blanket understanding/agreement are slim to none because none of us are looking at the same situation, just our take on it.

[MissBee]

Hmmmm. I am anti the term affair. I say let's take the hollywood pretty out of it. I am anti lying, gas lighting, exposure to crazy people, financial ruin, anti emotional devastation, anti passive aggressive, lacking in backbone, balls or good ole gumption. I am anti let me play with your life without giving you a choice in that decision. I am anti STD exposure, anti cake eating, anti fence sitting, anti anything that involves using another person without their knowledge, I am anti disrespectful of the stability of a person one made promises to.

 

I am not anti divorce, anti true wub, anti being with one's true sole mate(yes I know I spelled it incorrectly for this usage)I am not anti going to be with whom ever rocks your world, floats your boat or set rockets off over the moon. I am not anti walking away like a mature male/female with the love of their lives and showing respect to the person they no longer want to be with.

 

So I guess my answer is..........

 

I agree!

 

Sometimes the way it is set up is to seem like those against affairs are against love, happiness, joy, freedom etc. When that is clearly not the case. As affairs are only affairs for ONE reason and that is the betrayal involved (which can then be broken down into particular things as you've listed, depending on that specific scenario). Without that aspect it's not an affair. Much like murder is not murder without mens rea (guilty mind/criminal intent); it's manslaughter or some such without that key component.

 

I am all for people who wanna be swingers, polyamorous, polygamous, open marriages, voyeurs, divorcing and remarrying 14 times, finding your soul mate when you're married to someone else, freedom to walk away at any point from a marriage etc...all so long as it is open and transparent. That is all.

[alexandria35]

I am all for people's right to choose....but am also glad that there are certain things people are banned from choosing, as if left up to their own devises, with everyone picking and choosing as they saw fit, it would be a mess.

 

As to affairs....the reality is that one cannot ban someone from having an affair, although maybe in some societies adultery is still a crime. One cannot ban someone from being a liar, unscrupulous or any such thing (albeit such traits can lead you into other activities that do get you into trouble). I will never fight for the rights of someone to be able to engage in betrayal, but I am well aware that people are free to do it and if an anti-affair bill was to be voted on, I most likely would not vote for it. I however, do not believe it is a "cause" like abortion rights, gay rights, civil rights etc. All those things have relevancy to some type of basic right or people suffer unfair oppression due to negative and prejudicial opinions about it....as for affairs? I mean I just feel completely ridiculous trying to discuss people's right to choose an affair. Of course you can choose to have an affair....but I'm sorry is this supposed to be some cause? Are you (plural) being oppressed because people would rather you not sleep with their spouse or is a spouse being oppressed because his or her partner would rather not be lied to?

 

My mother always told me: " Not everything that you"re free to do is good for you to do"....and it was some wise advice.

 

 

That's the crux for me....I cannot really get down with viewing affairs as some "cause"....it's not a cause. You can do it or not do it and as an individual, that is up to you. But setting it up as some type of cause is ridiculous IMO. There are far more pressing matters on earth that require fighting for than this. The crux for me as I stated in another post is about the lying, betrayal, deceit that are part and parcel with affairs....if an affair does not include any of those...then it is not an affair. Would you agree? There are many ways to sleep with someone's spouse, have a relationship etc that don't include the above. I am all for people having alternative lifestyles that include liaisons with others so long as everything is out in the open. That's all it is for me. How can one sweep aside those aspects?

 

 

Got it...your stance is peculiar and interesting to me. I do differentiate between people like myself and others who "find" themselves in affairs, it's not ideal and they don't like that it is that way versus those who see affairs as an actual alternative style of living that one can choose just like one would choose to date tall men or some such.

 

 

Regardless of your religious affiliation and so forth, I think most people would rather not be lied to and jerked around by someone they trust. I expected that was common decency. I can argue and see both sides to many a scenario, but to common decency, I don't think you can break it down any further. If anyone can offer me a great explanation as to how you get around the deceit of cheating and affairs and are able to view it as a great choice if you so desire...then by all means, I would like to hear it.

 

 

Also Got It, if the world was yours to organize, what would be the golden rule for you or what would be the tenets of common decency?

 

 

Wonderfully said MissBee.

[donnamaybe]

Common decency. So many expect it for their benefit. Why should all not benefit?

[Got it]

I am all for people's right to choose....but am also glad that there are certain things people are banned from choosing, as if left up to their own devises, with everyone picking and choosing as they saw fit, it would be a mess.

 

As to affairs....the reality is that one cannot ban someone from having an affair, although maybe in some societies adultery is still a crime. One cannot ban someone from being a liar, unscrupulous or any such thing (albeit such traits can lead you into other activities that do get you into trouble). I will never fight for the rights of someone to be able to engage in betrayal, but I am well aware that people are free to do it and if an anti-affair bill was to be voted on, I most likely would not vote for it. I however, do not believe it is a "cause" like abortion rights, gay rights, civil rights etc. All those things have relevancy to some type of basic right or people suffer unfair oppression due to negative and prejudicial opinions about it....as for affairs? I mean I just feel completely ridiculous trying to discuss people's right to choose an affair. Of course you can choose to have an affair....but I'm sorry is this supposed to be some cause? Are you (plural) being oppressed because people would rather you not sleep with their spouse or is a spouse being oppressed because his or her partner would rather not be lied to?

 

My mother always told me: " Not everything that you"re free to do is good for you to do"....and it was some wise advice.

 

 

That's the crux for me....I cannot really get down with viewing affairs as some "cause"....it's not a cause. You can do it or not do it and as an individual, that is up to you. But setting it up as some type of cause is ridiculous IMO. There are far more pressing matters on earth that require fighting for than this. The crux for me as I stated in another post is about the lying, betrayal, deceit that are part and parcel with affairs....if an affair does not include any of those...then it is not an affair. Would you agree? There are many ways to sleep with someone's spouse, have a relationship etc that don't include the above. I am all for people having alternative lifestyles that include liaisons with others so long as everything is out in the open. That's all it is for me. How can one sweep aside those aspects?

 

 

Got it...your stance is peculiar and interesting to me. I do differentiate between people like myself and others who "find" themselves in affairs, it's not ideal and they don't like that it is that way versus those who see affairs as an actual alternative style of living that one can choose just like one would choose to date tall men or some such.

 

 

Regardless of your religious affiliation and so forth, I think most people would rather not be lied to and jerked around by someone they trust. I expected that was common decency. I can argue and see both sides to many a scenario, but to common decency, I don't think you can break it down any further. If anyone can offer me a great explanation as to how you get around the deceit of cheating and affairs and are able to view it as a great choice if you so desire...then by all means, I would like to hear it.

 

 

Also Got It, if the world was yours to organize, what would be the golden rule for you or what would be the tenets of common decency?

 

Miss Bee - very interesting post and so I may have to come back to further answer as I want to think about it. The crux of it, is I do follow the Golden Rule and yes I am aware the affair goes counter to it.

 

I also recognize that poeple aren't perfect and the path of humanity is to strive for that perfection but understand that we will usually fall short. But the journey, the effort is the important piece.

 

You know, I could come back with reasons why I did it, why I engaged, what "lessened" things. But they don't matter, really. I choose to engage. He choose to engage. He had his reasons. I can say that both of us gave everything we could to our marriages before hitting that point. Was it the right timing? No. And that reflected much more on his end. On mine, well it's hard to see where, while the affair was wrong, the outcome wasn't the right one. But then my xh doesn't know he was a BH. And he moved quickly on to his next relationship, we had a very amicable divorce where no I took no money from him as there was no reason to, and just married her and is the happiest I have ever seen him. And he is with a woman that seems to truly love him the way he deserves to be loved.

 

So while I feel guilt for the pain he is unaware I have caused him, and I know that if/when he were to find out I would deserve any of the emotions he may have (not sure if he will at this point). I can't say I regret it. I didn't leave for the AP as I left just weeks into the affair. But what the affair did for me was finish my mourning of the end of the marriage that I had been working through for about 2 years prior. And finalized the last details I needed hammered out. We had tried what we could, he refused counseling many times.

 

So the golden rule, do unto others how you would have done to you . . . I can't say in the scheme of things if I would rather the above scenario. . . . but then the devil known is better than the devil unknown. . . .

 

Sorry, another tangent, the golden rule. You know I still feel most follow it but I also recognize that most aren't perfect. I think most affairs (to bring it back to the topic at hand) are really nothing more special, devious, thought through, or insidious, than two people bumbling around suddenly finding happiness in an unlikely area. I understand that there are some that have turned it into an art form but I don't understand that so cannot comment on it.

 

But this goes back to another musing. I had one affair, I actually know little of them so I find it quite hard to actually speak as some sort of expert on them. Same as relationships. I married my high school sweetheart, I can't say I have that many notches on my belt. I know my relationships, I know my experience. I guess I perceive that there are a lot more "grey" relationships than the extreme as what is usually told. Very few involve the one hour a week, whispering in the phone, meeting in the back of a pick up, sending smoke signals to each other kind of thing. Not say that hasn't happened as I am sure it has!

 

I cannot excuse away the lying. I can't. It is there, the OP can say they aren't doing it. I know I did not participate in his lying but it was there. He owns it, he is sorry for it, he will continue to be sorry for it. Relationships are selfish, romantic love is selfish, an affair is defiintely selfish. It is the epitome in self-indulgence especially as the WS.

 

But it is really hard to still try and wrap your brain around how bad it supposedly is when the love is stronger than ever. And this is many years in the making, so not a "fog" or other such nonsense. And knowing the paradox, that this amazing love that is as real as anything I have ever felt, is build on the ignorance and then hurt of the BS. Sure ,she cheated herself, but her pain is still real. And I have not been one in my life to knowingly inflict pain on another.

 

But I know few who argue it as a lifestyle choice. I think most who do that are WS. I really think most people, who are accused of being pro-affair, are pretty much saying what you said above and what I said. It isn't about a "way of life" it became one great relationship in their life.

 

Okay, I think I went more off on a tangent than addressed your comments. But there you go . . .

[donnamaybe]

These "great loves" spoken about. How great when someone refuses to leave their spouse for it?

[SoleMate]

Thanks, GotIt, maybe I am getting it a little. You are hardly a hardened or relentless OW. You entered the OW situation for a brief period, and not without thought. You did not seek out an A, or prolong it, and I don't hear you pounding the drum (too hard) about how great your A is or how "hate-filled" the critics are.

 

I am not filled with hate. I am filled with compassion towards people in pain, who are tormented by the lies and the manipulation they are experiencing.

 

I am also filled with irritation (not hatred) at the relentless pro-A boosters. One supposedly successful A does not a pattern make. As another poster said, As are by definition sneaky. You can't have an A without lying or cheating or gaslighting. If you are having extramarital sex with honesty and disclosure and fair consideration of everyone's interests, that is not an A in the sense we use it here.

 

There are so many LS posters over the past years, who have suffered terribly. I do not see the slightest compassion among the pro-A crowd, for the OW who are in pain or who are struggling with very hard decisions and watching their precious time be wasted. On the contrary, (many, not all, of) the pro-A OW speak of every suffering OW as someone who created her own problems by doing a poor job managing the affair.

[Silly_Girl]

SoleMate, who ARE the pro-affair posters?

[jsb58]

SoleMate, who ARE the pro-affair posters?

Can't see the forest for the trees? Read your last 100 or so posts and see how many of them actually discouraged someone from having an A. How many instead defended Someone's right to an A?

 

Let us know what you find.

[Silly_Girl]

Can't see the forest for the trees? Read your last 100 or so posts and see how many of them actually discouraged someone from having an A. How many instead defended Someone's right to an A?

 

Let us know what you find.

 

I already know what my posts say, if one takes time to read the actual content.

 

Tell you what, as you answered my question to SoleMate why not quote my pro-affair posts so we can all look at the same text, together?

[donnamaybe]

I am also filled with irritation (not hatred) at the relentless pro-A boosters. One supposedly successful A does not a pattern make. As another poster said, As are by definition sneaky. You can't have an A without lying or cheating or gaslighting. If you are having extramarital sex with honesty and disclosure and fair consideration of everyone's interests, that is not an A in the sense we use it here.

 

There are so many LS posters over the past years, who have suffered terribly. I do not see the slightest compassion among the pro-A crowd, for the OW who are in pain or who are struggling with very hard decisions and watching their precious time be wasted. On the contrary, (many, not all, of) the pro-A OW speak of every suffering OW as someone who created her own problems by doing a poor job managing the affair.

And anytime someone posts about how THEY personally feel about themselves, there is ALWAYS someone who will come on and talk about it being ridiculous and "that's not how I felt at all in my A's." Talk about diminishing someone else's experiences and pain! That's SO not "supportive." Actually, it smacks of rubbing someone's nose in their own emotions.

[jthorne]

SoleMate, who ARE the pro-affair posters?

Still playing that trick, huh?

You should know by now that asking other members to name names and quote posts is a violation of Community Guidelines.

[Silly_Girl]

Still playing that trick, huh?

You should know by now that asking other members to name names and quote posts is a violation of Community Guidelines.

 

Trick? Not me. Look a tiny bit harder.

[MissBee]

And anytime someone posts about how THEY personally feel about themselves, there is ALWAYS someone who will come on and talk about it being ridiculous and "that's not how I felt at all in my A's." Talk about diminishing someone else's experiences and pain! That's SO not "supportive." Actually, it smacks of rubbing someone's nose in their own emotions.

 

I agree! Every time I see that, I wonder what is the point? There is a particular poster who I am yet to see sharing the experience of most, and almost no affair scenario applies to her, which is fine, but I wonder if one doesn't notice that and think "Hmm....maybe my experience is anomalous after all since NOTHING posted ever applies" when a lot more others say "Wow...I can relate". Why continue saying "I cannot relate at all" over and over and over....

 

That reminds me of a friend of mine. Both of us live in the U.S. but grew up in a developing country where we were privileged. We went to the best schools, traveled, our parents were professionals and we were afforded the luxury to study and live in the U.S. That is NOT the experience of most people in that country. I realize this. I am well aware and grateful for that privilege but realize it is indeed a privilege and not the norm (although at one point I would have thought it was the norm since most of my friends also shared that experience). My friend on the other hand, EVERYTIME people ask about growing up or others from the same country comment about struggles and poverty she behaves as though what they're saying is ridiculous and that was not how her life was and that "Everyone's not poor". She is really quite dense! I want to smack her! Of course everyone's not poor, you were privileged and ran in the privileged circle and are entitled to your experience but do you not realize that that experience was NOT representative of the majority???? She doesn't get it.....

 

I on the other hand had a foot in both worlds and could see where my experience was not the norm and felt no need to accuse people of generalizing or point out "Well that wasn't my experience". My experience was useful for contrast yes or depending on what someone asked, I would preface it by saying that, that's not average...but I wasn't on and on highlighting how different my experience was and how I couldn't relate. There was no need to do that. No one asks her anything anymore in that regard, needless to say, and they'd rather ask me or someone else who can share our personal experience and what it was like for us but we can also broaden it to discuss how life is in general for the majority and give a well rounded picture of the reality versus overemphasizing a marginal experience.

 

On the board, narcissism, egocentrism and the lot are brought up often and that attitude is the quintessential example of someone so caught up in their own experience that they cannot see that it is not reflective of the majority. Every individual's experience is worth something and is important and may prove useful to others; however, being able to place our experience on a spectrum and view it in comparison to wider experiences is also necessary.

Edited July 27, 2011 by MissBee

[NoIDidn't]

I agree! Every time I see that, I wonder what is the point? There is a particular poster who I am yet to see sharing the experience of most, and almost no affair scenario applies to her, which is fine, but I wonder if one doesn't notice that and think "Hmm....maybe my experience is anomalous after all since NOTHING posted ever applies" when a lot more others say "Wow...I can relate". Why continue saying "I cannot relate at all" over and over and over....

 

That reminds me of a friend of mine. Both of us live in the U.S. but grew up in a developing country where we were privileged. We went to the best schools, traveled, our parents were professionals and we were afforded the luxury to study and live in the U.S. That is NOT the experience of most people in that country. I realize this. I am well aware and grateful for that privilege but realize it is indeed a privilege and not the norm (although at one point I would have thought it was the norm since most of my friends also shared that experience). My friend on the other hand, EVERYTIME people ask about growing up or others from the same country comment about struggles and poverty she behaves as though what they're saying is ridiculous and that was not how her life was and that "Everyone's not poor". She is really quite dense! I want to smack her! Of course everyone's not poor, you were privileged and ran in the privileged circle and are entitled to your experience but do you not realize that that experience was NOT representative of the majority???? She doesn't get it.....

 

I on the other hand had a foot in both worlds and could see where my experience was not the norm and felt no need to accuse people of generalizing or point out "Well that wasn't my experience". My experience was useful for contrast yes or depending on what someone asked, I would preface it by saying that, that's not average...but I wasn't on and on highlighting how different my experience was and how I couldn't relate. There was no need to do that. No one asks her anything anymore in that regard, needless to say, and they'd rather ask me or someone else who can share our personal experience and what it was like for us but we can also broaden it to discuss how life is in general for the majority and give a well rounded picture of the reality versus overemphasizing a marginal experience.

 

On the board, narcissism, egocentrism and the lot are brought up often and that attitude is the quintessential example of someone so caught up in their own experience that they cannot see that it is not reflective of the majority. Every individual's experience is worth something and is important and may prove useful to others; however, being able to place our experience on a spectrum and view it in comparison to wider experiences is also necessary.

 

Great post. Its so sad that some only think support for those in As is encouraging the affair no matter the emotional cost, and then blaming the OP for having a hard time at it.

 

I love your post about your native country. My H is West Indian and he had a foot in both parts of growing up on a tiny, developing island too. And it was such a great analogy for dealing with people who are clearly unable to see things in any way differently from they way they choose to see things (and they have the nerve to call you the closed-minded one, lol).