The best post i have ever seen on affairs. READ

[Silly_Girl]

I haven't seen a poster join who categorically states they are NOT ending the relationship. And I haven't seen 30 posters jump all over someone who states that. And I don't see anyone calling anyone else stupid for doing that - plus that is against guidelines and I am sure it would be reported.[/Quote]

 

I *think* I've seen 3 posters in the last week say they can't end things right now.

 

As for the throng of voices, I see it, maybe it's my perception.

 

And about calling someone stupid, oh my error, it's 'desperate, pathetic, needy, empty, broken'. You can deny it, but it's out there plenty in B&W.

 

What support can I offer someone who isn't on the board? None obviously. I can't make anyone stay at LS, nor can I make some leave. And normally you can't help people unless they want help or want to make a change. Can't make an alcoholic be sober if they don't admit there is an issue or aren't ready to make the change. Still not following your post......

 

I think the idea of showing support for someone who is not behaving in a manner one approves of can be extremely challenging.

 

And posters do turn tail sometimes because it is hard for them to work through their issues whilst at the same time working against a powerful tide. There ends up being no payoff. I'd rather OW posted here than struggled alone but perhaps there are those that would rather the 'maverick' OW did stay away. I can't know, just speculating...

[NoIDidn't]

It was a rant.

It was absolutely relevant...

The truth hurts...

Silencing opinions doesn't change anything...

 

The women/men involved with married people here get talked down to, insulted, although they generally treat others with respect. They are very rarely accorded any by people who use them to vent their anger about their own situations...

 

That has been my experience here...

 

Actually, I was stating that my post following yours was no longer relevant as yours had been deleted.

 

My post was now floating with the post above it not being the one it was in response to.

 

Hope that clears it up for you.

[SoleMate]

If a poster joins and categorically states 'I cannot/will not give this R up now...' what on earth is the point in thirty posters shouting at her about how stupid she is and what awful doom awaits her?

To shout at her, that she is stupid, is not constructive advice. It is simply derogation and insult and should never occur on this forum.

 

To shout at her, the "awful doom [that] awaits her", is not much better. The two big problems with doom-shouting, to the extent that it occurs, are:

 

1) Shouting is uncivil, against the forum rules, and less likely to be effective

 

2) Predictions of "doom", as in "100% certain devastation and destruction", are often overblown, inaccurate, and easy to disprove. (After all, even one counterexample in human history would negate such a sweeping claim.) And I will be the first to agree that there certainly have been EMA that were overall positive, longterm, for at least the AP and MP.

 

However, let's not confuse civil advice about the very low chances of positive outcome from an A, with doom-shouting.

 

And as I think of it, I am much less interested in convincing the relentlessly pro-A OW, as they are clearly figurative nuts too hard for me to crack. I feel much more energy towards assisting and advising two other types of OW, both actual and potential:

 

1) Current OW, who express distress and unhappiness with their r/s, and are considering trying, or have tried or are trying to exit, but finding it difficult. These women do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid emotional support ("attagirl" etc.) and practical insights. Pointing out that these people may want to consider whether issues of self-esteem and depressed mood are factors for them, should not be seen as an insult.

 

2) Pre-OW who are in the process of being groomed by a wannabe cheating MM, and are trying to understand more about A, the likely trajectories, whether an A is a good idea, whether they should succumb, etc. These women also do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid information and data about the typical A trajectories and outcomes, the risks, an ACCURATE assessment of the benefits, the ways to avoid an A, the reasons to avoid an A, and the alternatives to having an A. It is not appropriate to call such posters by insulting or inflammatory terms. It may be borderline acceptable to point out that many others in society may have such a reaction.

 

The support, insights, and information are what this forum is all about. I know I've been helpful to former, and even a few still-struggling, OW on this forum, because some have mentioned it in posts or told me so privately. Due to my compassion for people who may be misled into hurtful r/s, I have to keep speaking out about what is wrong with affairs, for OW.

 

Last thought for the moment: Of all the r/s modalities out there, OW is just about the last I would recommend to someone, who does not deal with criticism or negativity well. To anyone considering starting an affair, I would recommend ordering some asbestos boy shorts and camisoles, because if LS seems to fling unfair statements towards OW, you will see and hear things 10 or 100 times worse out in the real world.

[donnamaybe]

Fantastic post SM! I have always wondered though - how is it possible to "shout" with a keyboard? lol

[MissBee]

To shout at her, that she is stupid, is not constructive advice. It is simply derogation and insult and should never occur on this forum.

 

To shout at her, the "awful doom [that] awaits her", is not much better. The two big problems with doom-shouting, to the extent that it occurs, are:

 

1) Shouting is uncivil, against the forum rules, and less likely to be effective

 

2) Predictions of "doom", as in "100% certain devastation and destruction", are often overblown, inaccurate, and easy to disprove. (After all, even one counterexample in human history would negate such a sweeping claim.) And I will be the first to agree that there certainly have been EMA that were overall positive, longterm, for at least the AP and MP.

 

However, let's not confuse civil advice about the very low chances of positive outcome from an A, with doom-shouting.

 

And as I think of it, I am much less interested in convincing the relentlessly pro-A OW, as they are clearly figurative nuts too hard for me to crack. I feel much more energy towards assisting and advising two other types of OW, both actual and potential:

 

1) Current OW, who express distress and unhappiness with their r/s, and are considering trying, or have tried or are trying to exit, but finding it difficult. These women do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid emotional support ("attagirl" etc.) and practical insights. Pointing out that these people may want to consider whether issues of self-esteem and depressed mood are factors for them, should not be seen as an insult.

 

2) Pre-OW who are in the process of being groomed by a wannabe cheating MM, and are trying to understand more about A, the likely trajectories, whether an A is a good idea, whether they should succumb, etc. These women also do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid information and data about the typical A trajectories and outcomes, the risks, an ACCURATE assessment of the benefits, the ways to avoid an A, the reasons to avoid an A, and the alternatives to having an A. It is not appropriate to call such posters by insulting or inflammatory terms. It may be borderline acceptable to point out that many others in society may have such a reaction.

 

The support, insights, and information are what this forum is all about. I know I've been helpful to former, and even a few still-struggling, OW on this forum, because some have mentioned it in posts or told me so privately. Due to my compassion for people who may be misled into hurtful r/s, I have to keep speaking out about what is wrong with affairs, for OW.

Last thought for the moment: Of all the r/s modalities out there, OW is just about the last I would recommend to someone, who does not deal with criticism or negativity well. To anyone considering starting an affair, I would recommend ordering some asbestos boy shorts and camisoles, because if LS seems to fling unfair statements towards OW, you will see and hear things 10 or 100 times worse out in the real world.

 

Great Post!

 

I agree, particularly with the bolded/underlined. The last bit is especially poignant.

[fooled once]

To shout at her, that she is stupid, is not constructive advice. It is simply derogation and insult and should never occur on this forum.

 

To shout at her, the "awful doom [that] awaits her", is not much better. The two big problems with doom-shouting, to the extent that it occurs, are:

 

1) Shouting is uncivil, against the forum rules, and less likely to be effective

 

2) Predictions of "doom", as in "100% certain devastation and destruction", are often overblown, inaccurate, and easy to disprove. (After all, even one counterexample in human history would negate such a sweeping claim.) And I will be the first to agree that there certainly have been EMA that were overall positive, longterm, for at least the AP and MP.

 

However, let's not confuse civil advice about the very low chances of positive outcome from an A, with doom-shouting.

 

And as I think of it, I am much less interested in convincing the relentlessly pro-A OW, as they are clearly figurative nuts too hard for me to crack. I feel much more energy towards assisting and advising two other types of OW, both actual and potential:

 

1) Current OW, who express distress and unhappiness with their r/s, and are considering trying, or have tried or are trying to exit, but finding it difficult. These women do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid emotional support ("attagirl" etc.) and practical insights. Pointing out that these people may want to consider whether issues of self-esteem and depressed mood are factors for them, should not be seen as an insult.

 

2) Pre-OW who are in the process of being groomed by a wannabe cheating MM, and are trying to understand more about A, the likely trajectories, whether an A is a good idea, whether they should succumb, etc. These women also do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid information and data about the typical A trajectories and outcomes, the risks, an ACCURATE assessment of the benefits, the ways to avoid an A, the reasons to avoid an A, and the alternatives to having an A. It is not appropriate to call such posters by insulting or inflammatory terms. It may be borderline acceptable to point out that many others in society may have such a reaction.

 

The support, insights, and information are what this forum is all about. I know I've been helpful to former, and even a few still-struggling, OW on this forum, because some have mentioned it in posts or told me so privately. Due to my compassion for people who may be misled into hurtful r/s, I have to keep speaking out about what is wrong with affairs, for OW.

 

Last thought for the moment: Of all the r/s modalities out there, OW is just about the last I would recommend to someone, who does not deal with criticism or negativity well. To anyone considering starting an affair, I would recommend ordering some asbestos boy shorts and camisoles, because if LS seems to fling unfair statements towards OW, you will see and hear things 10 or 100 times worse out in the real world.

 

You said what I wanted to say but couldn't figure out the right words; damn pain pills :laugh:

[Silly_Girl]

To shout at her, that she is stupid, is not constructive advice. It is simply derogation and insult and should never occur on this forum.

 

To shout at her, the "awful doom [that] awaits her", is not much better. The two big problems with doom-shouting, to the extent that it occurs, are:

 

1) Shouting is uncivil, against the forum rules, and less likely to be effective

 

2) Predictions of "doom", as in "100% certain devastation and destruction", are often overblown, inaccurate, and easy to disprove. (After all, even one counterexample in human history would negate such a sweeping claim.) And I will be the first to agree that there certainly have been EMA that were overall positive, longterm, for at least the AP and MP.

 

However, let's not confuse civil advice about the very low chances of positive outcome from an A, with doom-shouting.

 

And as I think of it, I am much less interested in convincing the relentlessly pro-A OW, as they are clearly figurative nuts too hard for me to crack. I feel much more energy towards assisting and advising two other types of OW, both actual and potential:

 

1) Current OW, who express distress and unhappiness with their r/s, and are considering trying, or have tried or are trying to exit, but finding it difficult. These women do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid emotional support ("attagirl" etc.) and practical insights. Pointing out that these people may want to consider whether issues of self-esteem and depressed mood are factors for them, should not be seen as an insult.

 

2) Pre-OW who are in the process of being groomed by a wannabe cheating MM, and are trying to understand more about A, the likely trajectories, whether an A is a good idea, whether they should succumb, etc. These women also do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid information and data about the typical A trajectories and outcomes, the risks, an ACCURATE assessment of the benefits, the ways to avoid an A, the reasons to avoid an A, and the alternatives to having an A. It is not appropriate to call such posters by insulting or inflammatory terms. It may be borderline acceptable to point out that many others in society may have such a reaction.

 

The support, insights, and information are what this forum is all about. I know I've been helpful to former, and even a few still-struggling, OW on this forum, because some have mentioned it in posts or told me so privately. Due to my compassion for people who may be misled into hurtful r/s, I have to keep speaking out about what is wrong with affairs, for OW.

 

Last thought for the moment: Of all the r/s modalities out there, OW is just about the last I would recommend to someone, who does not deal with criticism or negativity well. To anyone considering starting an affair, I would recommend ordering some asbestos boy shorts and camisoles, because if LS seems to fling unfair statements towards OW, you will see and hear things 10 or 100 times worse out in the real world.

 

A major flaw is that this is your view as a seasoned poster, not a newbie OW who just found LS and thinks she finally has somewhere safe to open up where people in her situation will understand....

[Silly_Girl]

To shout at her, that she is stupid, is not constructive advice. It is simply derogation and insult and should never occur on this forum.

 

To shout at her, the "awful doom [that] awaits her", is not much better. The two big problems with doom-shouting, to the extent that it occurs, are:

 

1) Shouting is uncivil, against the forum rules, and less likely to be effective

 

2) Predictions of "doom", as in "100% certain devastation and destruction", are often overblown, inaccurate, and easy to disprove. (After all, even one counterexample in human history would negate such a sweeping claim.) And I will be the first to agree that there certainly have been EMA that were overall positive, longterm, for at least the AP and MP.

 

However, let's not confuse civil advice about the very low chances of positive outcome from an A, with doom-shouting.

 

And as I think of it, I am much less interested in convincing the relentlessly pro-A OW, as they are clearly figurative nuts too hard for me to crack. I feel much more energy towards assisting and advising two other types of OW, both actual and potential:

 

1) Current OW, who express distress and unhappiness with their r/s, and are considering trying, or have tried or are trying to exit, but finding it difficult. These women do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid emotional support ("attagirl" etc.) and practical insights. Pointing out that these people may want to consider whether issues of self-esteem and depressed mood are factors for them, should not be seen as an insult.

 

2) Pre-OW who are in the process of being groomed by a wannabe cheating MM, and are trying to understand more about A, the likely trajectories, whether an A is a good idea, whether they should succumb, etc. These women also do not need criticism or slurs, they need solid information and data about the typical A trajectories and outcomes, the risks, an ACCURATE assessment of the benefits, the ways to avoid an A, the reasons to avoid an A, and the alternatives to having an A. It is not appropriate to call such posters by insulting or inflammatory terms. It may be borderline acceptable to point out that many others in society may have such a reaction.

 

The support, insights, and information are what this forum is all about. I know I've been helpful to former, and even a few still-struggling, OW on this forum, because some have mentioned it in posts or told me so privately. Due to my compassion for people who may be misled into hurtful r/s, I have to keep speaking out about what is wrong with affairs, for OW.

 

Last thought for the moment: Of all the r/s modalities out there, OW is just about the last I would recommend to someone, who does not deal with criticism or negativity well. To anyone considering starting an affair, I would recommend ordering some asbestos boy shorts and camisoles, because if LS seems to fling unfair statements towards OW, you will see and hear things 10 or 100 times worse out in the real world.

 

A major flaw is that this is your view as a seasoned poster, not a newbie OW who just found LS and thinks she finally has somewhere safe to open up where people in her situation will understand....

 

I'm not suggesting the preachers stop preaching. But there's room for those who don't share their view.

[whichwayisup]

I cannot believe the same discussion is still on going -- How to give advice and what is/isn't supportive advice!

 

A poster can decide for themselves what advice they would like to take in. Fact that someone stopped and read the thread to begin with, shows atleast they care, even if it's against the grain.. So what? We're all adults here and decide for ourselves. It gets so tiring reading how advice and support should be given.

[whichwayisup]

Why isn't it?

 

If a poster joins and categorically states 'I cannot/will not give this R up now...' what on earth is the point in thirty posters shouting at her about how stupid she is and what awful doom awaits her? How open is she going to feel inclined to be when she next goes back on a promise to herself or gets herself in a pickle after shunning advice from posters? Some posters merely go 'underground' and don't return to the board - what support can you offer them THEN???

 

I'm glad there are a variety of responses in that situation, I think it's much better for the OP.

 

No pom-poms required

 

Slight exaggeration? 30 posters and shouting, saying how stupid she is?? Please provide a link with atleast ONE (excluding dexter and all his other alias's he doesn't count ) post from someone calling an OW that she is stupid.

 

Tony suspends people who out right name call and I haven't seen ANYONE on here call another OW stupid.

[Steadfast]

A poster can decide for themselves what advice they would like to take in. Fact that someone stopped and read the thread to begin with, shows atleast they care, even if it's against the grain.. So what? We're all adults here and decide for ourselves. It gets so tiring reading how advice and support should be given.

 

As it relates to this board, these are true words. In passion, I am forced to remind myself of this fact. The best application it seems, is clarity.

 

I read somewhere that true love doesn't hurt anyone, but helps everyone. And while I am forced to accept that some people just don't care, that doesn't stop my heart from going out to the betrayed. My wife had an affair and two more before we divorced, and although I understand (not agree with, just understand) her motives for doing so, the damage caused from her actions hurt many innocent people. No matter how things turn out for her -good or bad- that won't change.

 

This is the core issue. The reality of our actions and decisions extend past the people having an affair. When promises are broken and betrayal is justified, the losers claim the prize for keeps. But even at that, I can honestly say I'd rather live with the pain then be part of what caused it.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Steadfast

[MissBee]

I cannot believe the same discussion is still on going -- How to give advice and what is/isn't supportive advice!

A poster can decide for themselves what advice they would like to take in. Fact that someone stopped and read the thread to begin with, shows atleast they care, even if it's against the grain.. So what? We're all adults here and decide for ourselves. It gets so tiring reading how advice and support should be given.

 

Agree....

 

It's one thing for the OP to complain but another for others to complain on their behalf (barring someone obviously verbally assaulting this person and abusing them). It's a forum after all and way less intimidating than if confronted in real life, with one click of a mouse or press of a power button you can forget anything ever happened here or find another side of the internet more suited to you. I have done that before in other forums. I posted, it wasn't for me, I moved on. I certainly didn't go crying all over my keyboard because it wasn't what I had expected.

 

I came on LS in 09 to the Breaks & Breaking Up section, distraught, and got good, bad, ugly and indifferent advice. In the height of my breakup I only wanted to hear that he would return, NC was a magic potion that would bring him back, it wasn't a permanent break up, all his crumbs were actually a form of legit effort, we had true love and our break up was unique....and people surely did not cater to those fancies. They laid it down, some gentle and some a little more frank, that it wasn't likely. I may have huffed and puffed a little, but overall, I got A LOT of sound advice that ran the gamut, some validated what I wanted, MOST told me what I needed , albeit not what I was hoping for, and some posters were total jackassses. I am still here today. Everything isn't for everyone, LS was for me so I stuck around. Other places online, not so much. No skin off my nose.

 

But I do find SM's post sound and civil as well as sensible. She said distinctly that she is not advocating for anyone to be rude to anyone else and that she sees it fit to point out all sides of an affair to OW posting here....I am not sure what else is desired? I think the OPs should be the ones to make the call about how they find the advice. I can pull up several posts where the OP has thanked members of the board for their advice, even if it is against the affair and SM also brought up that even if some don't say it aloud they PM. If it is helping some, then LS has done its job. You can't help everyone...I think it is a waste to sit and worry about a poster who posted once and never returned when we don't know that person's life or why they chose to stop. Everything isn't for everyone, again, maybe LS wasn't the place for them if they left....it obviously is for some folks so they stay or come around every now and again....I am not sure if we should seek to have a campaign to get "more" people to stick around. If it's not for you, it's not for you. It's not as if LS is the one place online to seek support and so if you don't like it or are put off , the members have done a disservice to humanity....I am sure posters who never return find some other reprieve and are not currently thinking about the "meanies" on LS.

Edited July 24, 2011 by MissBee

[Silly_Girl]

I am sure posters who never return find some other reprieve and are not currently thinking about the "meanies" on LS.

 

Let us hope they do find assistance somewhere else.

[MissBee]

Let us hope they do find assistance somewhere else.

 

I'm sure they do...

 

If not, the situation still resolves itself in due time.

[whichwayisup]

Let us hope they do find assistance somewhere else.

 

There are thousands of forums on the net! LS is like Dr, sometimes it doesn't work out and you (general you) need to move on and find a better fit so you can get the help you need, so I'm sure the newer people who joined LS (though many recently have been trolls and left in a huffpuff) then chose to leave, have found a better suited place.

[Got it]

I would like to ask, can someone please cite where someone has stated something along the lines of promoting affairs in regards to encouraging others to seek them out, has pushed other posters into them, has harassed posters trying to get out of them?

 

I am confused because while there are many OP who are pro "their own affair" I can honestly say I don't know a single person who goes around touting it to be the best form of relationships, the easiest, what have you.

 

From what I have read here and even on "pro" OP sites, most OP support those in them and definitely support those getting out of them, and the over-riding message is always about the OP looking out for themselves, making sure they aren't sacrificing their needs, etc.

 

Honestly very similiar to most relationship advice. If you ignore the "OP" aspect, read the advice there as well reading other relationship advice, it all tends to sound the same.

 

And yes I would argue as well that any OP who is only getting an hour here or there, sacrificing their time, attention, and energies on scraps, and who doesn't feel satisfied with that, who is wanting more absolutely SHOULD speak up.

 

I do think many who are BS or those who have not been involved in EMR do have a skewed idea of affairs and the time involved. Obviously there is a wide gamet but most are much more than what is stated above.

 

I also question, those that feel there should be a more balanced array of advice, are they also the ones that go on the happy posts, the gushes about the MP and make condescending or negative comments? Those aren't posts that are looking, asking, needing, or seeking advice to end their affair. Are "you" just as equally minded with those as well?

 

An affair relationship is not for everyone. An affair relationship doesn't have to be one sided. An affair relationship doesn't have to be negative towards the OP. (And yes I am leaving out the debate about the BS to keep the argument on track. Obviously that is another line of debate for another post so we can stay focused here on the OP. I fully am aware of and acknowledge that the BS is not in the know, would only be viewed as negative, etc.)

 

And yes, if one is looking for that 3% (which I need to remind everyone that comes from a study of a very small sampling of men in a study done of those that had affairs, left their marriage and were married to their OP for more than 5 years) then yes the chances of that leve/type of "success" would be very minuet.

 

But one could also argue that if one only dated/had an intimate relationship in general to marry and stay married then the "success" rate is pretty small as most end up dating multiple people before they marry. As with this idea, and with affairs, one can be in them for a multitude of reasons and marriage may not be one of them. And they can be happy and satisfied.

 

Also, the logic/idea that one seeks out a support board because and only because they are seeking advice, i.e. are unhappy. First off, I ask, why are "you" here then?

 

And two, there are, again, multiple reasons why people do things and that holds true for online reading. There are many who come online because they are interested and want to share the interest, similar to a sport or hobby. Or, they are happy and want to share/bond with others in a similar vein. And finally because they are conflicted and looking for help, support, information.

 

I am not pro-affair, but I am pro-individual and their choices, and I am not anti-affair.

[Silly_Girl]

I'm sure they do...

 

If not, the situation still resolves itself in due time.

 

Nice.......

[Got it]

Suppose I was at a gathering and I was the guest speaker and my subject matter was volatile. At the end of my talk........I invited guests to sit down and give me their thoughts or advice on paper. More than likely the majority wouldn't respond at all, but those that did I could expect a wide variety of responses and more than likely the people who did respond were responding from personal viewpoints, maybe even personal experience. Let's say the subject matter was something that had caused some of the respondents pain presently or in the past, that adds a whole new level to it, right?

 

The point I'm trying to make is.........LS isn't any different nor should it be expected to be different than real life when dealing with a volatile subject.

 

If people would concentrate on giving the advice they feel is from the heart and spend less time on moaning and groaning about what the site is not it would be a more pleasant place to be for all. The PA remarks that are nothing more than underground attacks to avoid moderation are childish and no help to anyone. How can that be called support?

 

Or I would argue one is a glutton for punishment.

 

I am a vegatarian. I used to be very strongly into animal rights and did not wear animal products, used things with animal by-products, etc. Okay, so let's say I, in my beliefs, start attending speaches and functions by hunters or anti-animal rights, at what point does my personal beliefs stop becoming just my beliefs and experience and start becoming my own whipping post?

 

Why would I continue to subject myself to reminders of what goes contrary to my beliefs, feelings, experience with those that feel different and try to hammer in why I am right and they are wrong? At some point your experience becomes your baby to rock and control of your emotions/reactions by not placing oneself in said situations.

 

My knowledge of human nature, why not claiming to be an expert, would tell me that campaigning about not eating meat would fall on deaf ears to the "beef eaters of America" board. So I ask, why would I do that? Because I think I can make a difference? I guess so though it seems like an exercise in futility and really seems more about punishing myself.

 

Or, I can decide that it is something that is important to me, something I value, so will live my life accordingly. I do not try and impose it upon others or do I judge others for not falling the same principles. It is something that adds value to me but does not mean that it is an universal fact for others.

[Got it]

I don't see that the scenario you presented as being comparable to what is discussed here, as eating meat has nothing to do with choosing actions that can harm ourselves and others. Infidelity is something that can and does destroy marriage and sometimes is the reason someone becomes violent or suicidal. Eating meat.......or not eating meat is not life altering and the choice to do so or not does not directly cause pain to another.

 

And..........I'm an xow, I share my thoughts, my beliefs and my experience in hopes that someone else won't have to deal with all the pain that I have because of (bad,wrong) choices. I'm not so silly........as to assume that I can change someone's thinking or make them stop doing it, but I hope to enlighten someone who has misgivings about it and if they are being a doormat I hope to help them see that. Why...........because I've been there. For the happy ow..........well I have nothing to offer them so I just bow out of those. It should also be noted that they are many, many more unhappy ow here than happy. Those are the ones who are the majority. That's a fact!

 

I think most animals and animal rights activist would strongly disagree with your first statement. In that regard animal rights is literally about life and death which infidelity is not. Now you may argue that the life/death/quality of life of animals is less important than marriage or infidelity but that is just that, your opinion. And this does exactly prove my point, you are assessing a higher value in one area than someone else might but it doesn't make your assessment any more "right" than the person who disagrees.

 

Based on you comment that if a speech or speaker represents a topic that adds additional hurt towards members of the audience based on past experience, why is that responsibility on the speaker and not on the members of the audience? Why would they continue to subject themselves to speeches that continue to whip their already inflicted wounds and at what point does the audience members take responsibility for their actions and realize they have become the whippers themselves?

 

In regards to your last statement, can you cite evidence that it is actually a fact that there are more unhappy OW than happy ones? I am not saying I disagree but one one states a "fact" well one should cite where they got this evidence.

 

Why do not you have anything to offer for HOW? You were a OW, at some point in that relationship you had at least one moment of happiness, didn't you? Even if you didn't, do you not feel happy for others if they glean happiness from somethign even if you do not share the same experience? Does that not mean you cannot be happy for a BS, if you have never been a BS?

 

My relationship did not end, but that doesn't mean I can't be happy for an Ender who has moved on. If you found that you were not following your own guidelines and boundaries and in doing so were able to end a relationship that was adding more harm than value than I am thrilled for you. You should be your own advocate and should not be in any relationship that does not bring you value.

 

Why can you not offer anything to the HOW? That is a very interesting statement.

Edited July 24, 2011 by Got it

[alexandria35]

I would like to ask, can someone please cite where someone has stated something along the lines of promoting affairs in regards to encouraging others to seek them out, has pushed other posters into them, has harassed posters trying to get out of them?

 

I am confused because while there are many OP who are pro "their own affair" I can honestly say I don't know a single person who goes around touting it to be the best form of relationships, the easiest, what have you.

 

From what I have read here and even on "pro" OP sites, most OP support those in them and definitely support those getting out of them, and the over-riding message is always about the OP looking out for themselves, making sure they aren't sacrificing their needs, etc.

 

Honestly very similiar to most relationship advice. If you ignore the "OP" aspect, read the advice there as well reading other relationship advice, it all tends to sound the same.

 

And yes I would argue as well that any OP who is only getting an hour here or there, sacrificing their time, attention, and energies on scraps, and who doesn't feel satisfied with that, who is wanting more absolutely SHOULD speak up.

 

I do think many who are BS or those who have not been involved in EMR do have a skewed idea of affairs and the time involved. Obviously there is a wide gamet but most are much more than what is stated above.

 

I also question, those that feel there should be a more balanced array of advice, are they also the ones that go on the happy posts, the gushes about the MP and make condescending or negative comments? Those aren't posts that are looking, asking, needing, or seeking advice to end their affair. Are "you" just as equally minded with those as well?

 

An affair relationship is not for everyone. An affair relationship doesn't have to be one sided. An affair relationship doesn't have to be negative towards the OP. (And yes I am leaving out the debate about the BS to keep the argument on track. Obviously that is another line of debate for another post so we can stay focused here on the OP. I fully am aware of and acknowledge that the BS is not in the know, would only be viewed as negative, etc.)

 

And yes, if one is looking for that 3% (which I need to remind everyone that comes from a study of a very small sampling of men in a study done of those that had affairs, left their marriage and were married to their OP for more than 5 years) then yes the chances of that leve/type of "success" would be very minuet.

 

But one could also argue that if one only dated/had an intimate relationship in general to marry and stay married then the "success" rate is pretty small as most end up dating multiple people before they marry. As with this idea, and with affairs, one can be in them for a multitude of reasons and marriage may not be one of them. And they can be happy and satisfied.

 

Also, the logic/idea that one seeks out a support board because and only because they are seeking advice, i.e. are unhappy. First off, I ask, why are "you" here then?

 

And two, there are, again, multiple reasons why people do things and that holds true for online reading. There are many who come online because they are interested and want to share the interest, similar to a sport or hobby. Or, they are happy and want to share/bond with others in a similar vein. And finally because they are conflicted and looking for help, support, information.

 

I am not pro-affair, but I am pro-individual and their choices, and I am not anti-affair.

 

To be honest, I haven't seen any posts saying Yay Affairs!! Everyone should be in one!!. What I have seen is new posters coming here in pain and confusion, saying things like "my MM says he is leaving but I'm not sure if he will" and several posters will tell her that it is unlikely that he will leave, that she deserves better, that she is worth more than hanging on to a promise of someday made by a cheater. Then a pro-affair poster will come on and tell the new poster to just ignore the naysayers because they are all bitter betrayed spouses (which is nowhere close to the truth) and they just want to unload their anger onto her. Then the same pro-affair poster will proceed to critque and pick apart every post that is telling the OP to save herself and leave the affair behind her. The pro-affair posters will tell the OP things like 'hang in there, lots of MM do leave their wives and children for the OW, encouraging her to believe in a fantasy and fight for her prize (a lying deceitful cheater:sick:).

 

Saying that lots of cheaters leave their wives is crazy in itself. Lots of people win in Vegas, yet most people wouldn't tell someone to go ahead and bet their life savings because they personally know of someone who did just that and they won big! I use this analogy because I actually do know someone who just won 75 thousand dollars in Vegas:). Yay for him but I don't for one second believe that I should hop on the next flight out there to gamble away all of my money because since my friend was a big winner it means I can be a winner too! I'd be aghast if my family or people that claimed to care about me encouraged me to do something so potentially damaging. However, there is mind set here along the lines of "well I know of people who did have a succesful outcome in their affair, therefore nobody has any right to discourage an affair or casts affairs in negative light. It's just like Vegas. Some people win, but it's a gamble and the odds are against you. And most people would warn somebody about investing their hopes and dreams for their future on a crap shoot.

[alexandria35]

Or I would argue one is a glutton for punishment.

 

I am a vegatarian. I used to be very strongly into animal rights and did not wear animal products, used things with animal by-products, etc. Okay, so let's say I, in my beliefs, start attending speaches and functions by hunters or anti-animal rights, at what point does my personal beliefs stop becoming just my beliefs and experience and start becoming my own whipping post?

 

Why would I continue to subject myself to reminders of what goes contrary to my beliefs, feelings, experience with those that feel different and try to hammer in why I am right and they are wrong? At some point your experience becomes your baby to rock and control of your emotions/reactions by not placing oneself in said situations.

 

My knowledge of human nature, why not claiming to be an expert, would tell me that campaigning about not eating meat would fall on deaf ears to the "beef eaters of America" board. So I ask, why would I do that? Because I think I can make a difference? I guess so though it seems like an exercise in futility and really seems more about punishing myself.

 

Or, I can decide that it is something that is important to me, something I value, so will live my life accordingly. I do not try and impose it upon others or do I judge others for not falling the same principles. It is something that adds value to me but does not mean that it is an universal fact for others.

 

Your right. Attending animal hunters meetings to promote animal rights would probably be an exercise in futility. As sole mate said, she not interested in helping those who are firm believers in the rightness of their affairs. She feels she can be more helpful to those who are in pain and on the fence or to those who haven't yet quite taken the dive into an affair.That makes sense to me and I believe that most animal activists would also take advantage of the opportunity to sway someone undecided to their way of thinking. That's part of being a activist afterall, educating the general public and making them aware that there is an ugly side that they maybe haven't considered before.

 

Your posts here reads like the people here that are anti-affair shouldn't be advising others on their affair. That their beliefs are their "baby to rock" and they shouldn't be expressing there views here. LOL....This is Loveshack, a public board where everyone is allowed to post their views as long as they are respectful. Everyone here is expressing their opinions and beliefs, that's how Loveshack works. If you have a problem with that perhaps you should take that up with the forum owner. Tell them that you don't agree with them letting everyone state their beliefs and opinions and ask them to lock out the anti affair posters. Or maybe you could join a board that only allows people involved in affairs. There are several to chose from. Because just like you say it makes no sense to for an animal activist to try to change the beliefs of hunters, it makes no sense to complain about people expressing their views on a public forum where everyone is allowed to express their views. Take your own advice.

[SoleMate]

I would like to ask, can someone please cite where someone has stated something along the lines of promoting affairs in regards to encouraging others to seek them out, has pushed other posters into them, has harassed posters trying to get out of them?

Good question, but I am afraid you are setting up a straw man. That is not the typical pro-A post. A much more typical pro-A exchange goes like this:

 

OW or W being groomed for A by MM: "I have questions about my situation. He has made and broken promises, lied to me, told his W that I am stalking him. Please advise." or "A MM has made it clear that he is very interested in me and has been pursuing me relentlessly. It seems like a bad idea, but would it really be so bad just to have a little affair? I am quite sure I am only in it for the sex." etc.

 

LS anti-A poster: "Don't start, or please consider stopping, the affair, this will almost certainly end up in sorrow. Heartbreak, loneliness, and feeling used and foolish, is the norm for A. You are in (or teetering towards) a uniquely hurtful and destructive relationship and you will likely regret it, but only after years have been wasted. No r/s has any certain guarantee. However, the OW/MM comes closest to certain knowledge of the outcome - i.e. a disaster."

 

Pro-A OW: "Don't listen to the naysayers, they are mostly bitter scorned wives and/or people who don't know how to stick up for themselves in r/s and/or other people with (unspecified) cognitive and emotional deficits that cause them to have kneejerk, conventional reactions against affairs. My A has been great. I structured my relationship to get exactly what I want from it and the A was a very positive experience in my life. R/s with MM are much better than r/s with single men, because MM are never clingy. OW have a high degree of control in affairs (as long as they are superwomen with total self-confidence and the ability to turn off their emotional attachment to MM in a heartbeat should that ever become tactically advisable)."

 

Although I'll assume as a courtesy, that the pro-A story paraphrased above is factually correct for the one person who posted it, it is utter falseness to state, or imply, that it is or might be true for any but the tiniest fraction.

 

As an analogy, about 12 people of over 1,000 Golden Gate Bridge jumpers have survived. That's 1.2% survival. If I see someone planning to jump, I'll shout or beg, "No! You'll die if you do that!" If someone then pops up to counter me by saying, "But people do survive the jump, and in fact I am one of them", then yes, I'll probably tell them to shut up. What would motivate someone, to give hope of jump survival to someone wavering on a parapet? Likewise, what would motivate someone, to give hope of a happy, fulfilling affair, to someone being manipulated and groomed by an MM? Could the motivation be, misery loves company?

 

****EDIT: Oh, whoops! I just caught up on the thread and see that Alexandria already made the point. All I can say is that great minds think alike.

Edited July 24, 2011 by SoleMate

[MissBee]

To be honest, I haven't seen any posts saying Yay Affairs!! Everyone should be in one!!. What I have seen is new posters coming here in pain and confusion, saying things like "my MM says he is leaving but I'm not sure if he will" and several posters will tell her that it is unlikely that he will leave, that she deserves better, that she is worth more than hanging on to a promise of someday made by a cheater. Then a pro-affair poster will come on and tell the new poster to just ignore the naysayers because they are all bitter betrayed spouses (which is nowhere close to the truth) and they just want to unload their anger onto her. Then the same pro-affair poster will proceed to critque and pick apart every post that is telling the OP to save herself and leave the affair behind her. The pro-affair posters will tell the OP things like 'hang in there, lots of MM do leave their wives and children for the OW, encouraging her to believe in a fantasy and fight for her prize (a lying deceitful cheater:sick:).

Saying that lots of cheaters leave their wives is crazy in itself. Lots of people win in Vegas, yet most people wouldn't tell someone to go ahead and bet their life savings because they personally know of someone who did just that and they won big! I use this analogy because I actually do know someone who just won 75 thousand dollars in Vegas:). Yay for him but I don't for one second believe that I should hop on the next flight out there to gamble away all of my money because since my friend was a big winner it means I can be a winner too! I'd be aghast if my family or people that claimed to care about me encouraged me to do something so potentially damaging. However, there is mind set here along the lines of "well I know of people who did have a succesful outcome in their affair, therefore nobody has any right to discourage an affair or casts affairs in negative light. It's just like Vegas. Some people win, but it's a gamble and the odds are against you. And most people would warn somebody about investing their hopes and dreams for their future on a crap shoot.

 

Great post! I've used a similar analogy myself about the lottery and how it is possible to win millions and certainly people have but most people do not win the lottery and there are far more people who have gambled their life away on the lottery than those who have gambled with much success.

 

When I joined this side of LS the first thread I ventured into was one discussing people claiming affairs never work. I found it quite silly as no one said that in the thread and most sensible people realize that there are exceptions to every rule, but the point is that, there IS a rule!

 

I don't really get how it's even arguable the whole matter of affairs being more often than not, a bad idea....I really don't. I am not a BS or some person who never had an affair and is talking based on pure speculation or intelligent guessing, I have lived that reality twice, technically, and while in the affair my sentiments would have probably been the same. I quite like the poster, Loni. She was an OW and is now married to the guy and would be considered a "success story" yet her posts and advice are much like how I imagine mine would be.Acknowledging it worked, she is happy with her life, but she doesn't have an air about her where she downplays the reality or plays up the odds and she isn't very apologetic about the whole matter at all. She doesn't take people to task about it and to me, I can believe in her story or that she is in fact happy, as her style of posting displays confidence in her own life choices and it is also realistic as well, I think she even calls herself an anecdote. She seems to acknowledge her unique scenario and doesn't feel the need to prove to others that affairs can be good things.

[fooled once]

The point I'm trying to make is.........LS isn't any different nor should it be expected to be different than real life when dealing with a volatile subject.

 

If people would concentrate on giving the advice they feel is from the heart and spend less time on moaning and groaning about what the site is not it would be a more pleasant place to be for all. The PA remarks that are nothing more than underground attacks to avoid moderation are childish and no help to anyone. How can that be called support?

 

Great post BB!

 

To be honest, I haven't seen any posts saying Yay Affairs!! Everyone should be in one!!. What I have seen is new posters coming here in pain and confusion, saying things like "my MM says he is leaving but I'm not sure if he will" and several posters will tell her that it is unlikely that he will leave, that she deserves better, that she is worth more than hanging on to a promise of someday made by a cheater. Then a pro-affair poster will come on and tell the new poster to just ignore the naysayers because they are all bitter betrayed spouses (which is nowhere close to the truth) and they just want to unload their anger onto her. Then the same pro-affair poster will proceed to critque and pick apart every post that is telling the OP to save herself and leave the affair behind her. The pro-affair posters will tell the OP things like 'hang in there, lots of MM do leave their wives and children for the OW, encouraging her to believe in a fantasy and fight for her prize (a lying deceitful cheater:sick:).

 

I'd be aghast if my family or people that claimed to care about me encouraged me to do something so potentially damaging. However, there is mind set here along the lines of "well I know of people who did have a succesful outcome in their affair, therefore nobody has any right to discourage an affair or casts affairs in negative light. It's just like Vegas. Some people win, but it's a gamble and the odds are against you. And most people would warn somebody about investing their hopes and dreams for their future on a crap shoot.

 

Great post and I completely agree!

 

Also, like BB said in one of her posts; being a vegan is a choice you made that doesn't hurt anyone else. Having an affair hurts others, period. Being in an affair it isn't something that someone does in solitude or it doesn't affect others. And if being in an affair is no big deal, why all the sneaking around and secrecy? Why don't the people in the affair admit it when caught OR why don't the married person who is going to cheat tell the spouse prior to cheating?

[MissBee]

 

Why can you not offer anything to the HOW? That is a very interesting statement.

 

It wasn't addressed to me, but I'd like to answer, if you don't mind. When someone is happy about something, there is not much to be said except sharing in their joy by commenting on how great it is, saying congrats or some such. I haven't seen many posts of HOW just stopping by to say how happy they are....and if I did see such a post, I'd probably just say "Great for you!" and that would be that. FOW and BS's have posted threads giving an update saying they're happy and I may have extra to add or share, but more often than not, all that needs to be said is "Nice to hear! I'm happy for you!". People don't really approach happiness with a mindset to add anything extra to it, you just bask in it and that's really all. On the flip side when someone is unhappy, disgruntled, frustrated, confused etc. the nature of it is that you most likely will have more to share or they are looking for more input. When you're happy, you're happy. Nothing much to be said. There is actually an ongoing thread called The Happy Thread (or something similar) and most of the posts are people commenting saying what they're happy about and others may comment or add something but it is not a back and forth dialogue about that person's happiness, as happy is happy....

 

Also, the logic/idea that one seeks out a support board because and only because they are seeking advice, i.e. are unhappy. First off, I ask, why are "you" here then?

 

I posted once that I'd rather not be in a relationship that requires a support board. I think another poster asked why I was on here. My first response to that would be that the word support connotes a particular thing and I am sure the creators are indeed a part of the same society most of us are from, so chose the word support because of the real connotation it has that is relevant to OW/OM scenarios. There was contention earlier in the thread because a poster felt like LS members were not offering some posters the support they needed for their hard times. I am a part of other forums that are just "discussion boards", the only other boards I know that use the word "support" are boards that are about problems, difficulties, illnesses, particular issues and all kinds of things that need a particular type of advising....the rest are usually labeled discussion or some other word choice that implies something more lighthearted. I am on makeup forums, hair forums, cultural forums etc and they're not listed as support boards. I am sure they can be, but more often than not, the word support brings to mind particular things and for the subject matter, that word choice makes sense.

 

As for why I am here? I am here to share my experiences, offer advice, hear other's stories, learn and grow. I have been an OW and I have come to a lot of wonderful revelations in the past 2 years and wanted to share those with any woman wanting to hear. I am not here because I need advice about my relationship or need support for it, which goes back to me never wanting a relationship that requires a support board, if I can help it.

 

And two, there are, again, multiple reasons why people do things and that holds true for online reading. There are many who come online because they are interested and want to share the interest, similar to a sport or hobby. Or, they are happy and want to share/bond with others in a similar vein. And finally because they are conflicted and looking for help, support, information.

 

Agreed and it goes back to my above point that different boards online have different tones and discussion boards, hobby boards and support boards all have a different vibe to them. I joined LS for the Break Up boards. I needed advice and support in that emotional time. Most of the threads there are asking for advice, wanting help to decipher things, wanting to hear things will be better etc. Likewise, MOST threads here are along the same line. I am on beauty forums and the vibe is different as obviously the subject matter is about a more frivolous type of thing and not life issues. No one is there to support anyone, people are there to give tips, advice on techniques, products, and just to share. Hardly any hot and heavy debates or emotional things come up. One cannot compare a board about being in affair or a support-oriented board to boards about trivial hobbies.

 

Responses are bolded.

Edited July 25, 2011 by MissBee