Once a slut, always a slut?

[thatone]

I completely agree. And people are going to do what they are going to do.

 

My problem is people being judgemental, rather than people who do of don't have sex.

 

I was pointing out a whole lot of guys saying there is no double standard, and one guy being the proof that there is.

 

People without double standards are awesome IMO. If you don't want a girl who has had many partners, and you also would like that girl to not want men who have had lots of partners, that is cool.

 

But to me, guys who want to sleep around heaps but demand purity in the partner they settle down with are hypocrites. In the past I wouldn't have cared either way if my partner had lots of lovers or none, but the idea that I would choose some whore guy, that chose me in part because I haven't lead that sort of life is hypocritical. I don't want to be with a hypocrite. I don't want to be with someone who sets a much higher standard on me, then they do on themselves.

 

just as women who do so are hypocrites.

 

that's not a double standard. it's equality.

 

there's a thread on here every week with women trying to rationalize why they can't find a husband after being single until they're in their mid to late 30s.

 

all the men who might be interested in finding a wife hear from that is "blah blah blah blah blah". those women would have just as good a shot at convincing any man who they'd consider husband material if they were speaking in aramaic.

 

the difference is men don't have the luxury of abandoning all of their choices in life and 'marrying up' to the lifestyle they suddenly decide that they want. you want a double standard? THAT'S a double standard.

 

and guess what? given equality to be like men, neither do women have that luxury.

[rafallus]

Just want to point out to people who think there is no double standard. This post would seem to indicate that there is.

 

He's just a troll.

[Feelsgoodman]

People without double standards are awesome IMO. If you don't want a girl who has had many partners, and you also would like that girl to not want men who have had lots of partners, that is cool.

 

But to me, guys who want to sleep around heaps but demand purity in the partner they settle down with are hypocrites. In the past I wouldn't have cared either way if my partner had lots of lovers or none, but the idea that I would choose some whore guy, that chose me in part because I haven't lead that sort of life is hypocritical. I don't want to be with a hypocrite. I don't want to be with someone who sets a much higher standard on me, then they do on themselves.

Whether you like it or not, men and women are judged by different standards and this not only applies to sexual activity. For example, shyness is considered a "cute" quality in a woman. Not so in a man. A shy woman would still get approached by men, provided she is attractive. A shy man, on the other hand, is doomed to spent the rest of his life alone if he doesn't overcome his shyness.

 

This is just one example of men and women being judged according different standards. There is nothing hypocritical about. As I said, men and women are fundamentally different.

 

No matter what the feminists would have you believe, a woman's role, on the most basic, fundamental level, is that of a mother. When a man seeks out a woman for a long term term relationship (as opposed to a fling), he is basically selecting a mother for his children. And simply put, a slut does not make for a very good mother...and not only because you can never be sure that you she is actually the mother of YOUR children.

 

A mother is supposed to be nurturing and family-oriented. A mother is supposed to pick a man who is, in her view, a good father and stick with him. That's why men are instinctively drawn away from sluts when seeking long term relationships.

[Woggle]

Even men who live up to their own standards get crap. I have never cheated on a woman in my life but when I wanted my ex to be faithful all of a sudden I was trying to control her sexuality and she had the right to what men have done for years. When I hear women defend cheating it is the same kind of language that I hear when they defend promiscuity.

[Queen Zenobia]

Even men who live up to their own standards get crap. I have never cheated on a woman in my life but when I wanted my ex to be faithful all of a sudden I was trying to control her sexuality and she had the right to what men have done for years. When I hear women defend cheating it is the same kind of language that I hear when they defend promiscuity.

 

That's because people (of both genders) are cynical enough to believe that no one can live up to their own standards. They assume everyone has slept around or cheated (or both) and therefore they should too. Otherwise they'll miss out on all the "fun".

[Untouchable_Fire]

I have just skimmed this whole thread, so maybe I'm missing something important ... but why are we talking so much about "learning a lesson" and "something BAD happening"?

What if the women just liked having sex, did not attach a huge emotional or social meaning to having sex for fun and pleasure (you know, like they do in less Puritanical cultures than we have in America - like Sweden), and then later decided that she'd had plenty of that and was ready for a change of approach to her sexuality?

Human beings are capable of making such decisions and living by them. Really.

 

If you wish to slut it up... then do so. Don't complain when others find your actions distasteful. Act like a responsible adult and just let those people judge... they can't really hurt you. Throwing a temper tantrum about it is silly and juvenile.

 

I shoulder the full responsibility of my choices... if I sleep with a woman and she becomes pregnant... I have no choice in being a father. My choice begins and ends with sex. Women are released from all the consequences except petty judgement... and yet still find that unacceptable?

 

Some men spend their whole lives running from responsibility... yet their female counterparts don't even know what the word means.

[stepka]

I have just skimmed this whole thread, so maybe I'm missing something important ... but why are we talking so much about "learning a lesson" and "something BAD happening"?

 

What if the women just liked having sex, did not attach a huge emotional or social meaning to having sex for fun and pleasure (you know, like they do in less Puritanical cultures than we have in America - like Sweden), and then later decided that she'd had plenty of that and was ready for a change of approach to her sexuality?

 

Human beings are capable of making such decisions and living by them. Really.

 

If you wish to slut it up... then do so. Don't complain when others find your actions distasteful. Act like a responsible adult and just let those people judge... they can't really hurt you. Throwing a temper tantrum about it is silly and juvenile.

 

I shoulder the full responsibility of my choices... if I sleep with a woman and she becomes pregnant... I have no choice in being a father. My choice begins and ends with sex. Women are released from all the consequences except petty judgement... and yet still find that unacceptable?

 

Some men spend their whole lives running from responsibility... yet their female counterparts don't even know what the word means.

Actually Madame brings up a very good point. I get the feeling that most of the bitter feelings that men have on here come from the fact that they've been misled more than once in the past by a bad girl trying to pose as a good girl. What if a woman is open and honest about her sexuality and doesn't lie to you about her present or her past? Of course you have the option to take it or leave it, but would it bring out your feelings of anger?

 

BTW, I make no judgments of this--I can't just separate love from sex, though I have done so in the past with poor results. I think most women are made as I am, but not all of them, so if they take responsibility for their own actions, why not?

[Titania22]

 

the difference is men don't have the luxury of abandoning all of their choices in life and 'marrying up' to the lifestyle they suddenly decide that they want. you want a double standard? THAT'S a double standard.

 

and guess what? given equality to be like men, neither do women have that luxury.

 

I don't think anyone has the luxury of abandoning all their choices if they want to get married. I think very few people actually marry "up". I think there are members of both sexes who manage it, but it is all around rare. And also comes back to defining "up" (financially, looks, ethics, sanity, intellect, etc). Even if you make a case for women getting to be with wealthier men then they are, you can make an equal case for ugly guys getting women who are hotter then them.

 

Whether you like it or not, men and women are judged by different standards and this not only applies to sexual activity. For example, shyness is considered a "cute" quality in a woman. Not so in a man. A shy woman would still get approached by men, provided she is attractive. A shy man, on the other hand, is doomed to spent the rest of his life alone if he doesn't overcome his shyness.

 

This is just one example of men and women being judged according different standards. There is nothing hypocritical about. As I said, men and women are fundamentally different.

 

No matter what the feminists would have you believe, a woman's role, on the most basic, fundamental level, is that of a mother. When a man seeks out a woman for a long term term relationship (as opposed to a fling), he is basically selecting a mother for his children. And simply put, a slut does not make for a very good mother...and not only because you can never be sure that you she is actually the mother of YOUR children.

 

A mother is supposed to be nurturing and family-oriented. A mother is supposed to pick a man who is, in her view, a good father and stick with him. That's why men are instinctively drawn away from sluts when seeking long term relationships.

 

A shy man isn't necessarily doomed to spend his life alone. He is perhaps doomed not to have sex with alot of different women. But not all women are repulsed by shyness (i personally think it is adorable). But no one man or one woman is just one character trait.

 

And yes there are people all over the globe, judging everyone by all sorts of standards. But just because a majority of people do something doesn't make it right. I am not trying to change what the majority of people do (it would be great if i could sometimes), I am rather trying to get you all to see the just because the majority of people are judgemental, cruelty, have double standards, complain, conform, etc, it doesn't mean you have to. There is no rule that says "being a shy man automatically dooms me to spending my life alone". Everyones life is different, and sometimes it is nice to live life away from the highest statistical probability.

[Sanman]

Actually Madame brings up a very good point. I get the feeling that most of the bitter feelings that men have on here come from the fact that they've been misled more than once in the past by a bad girl trying to pose as a good girl. What if a woman is open and honest about her sexuality and doesn't lie to you about her present or her past? Of course you have the option to take it or leave it, but would it bring out your feelings of anger?

 

BTW, I make no judgments of this--I can't just separate love from sex, though I have done so in the past with poor results. I think most women are made as I am, but not all of them, so if they take responsibility for their own actions, why not?

 

 

The only issue I have is this... the honest woman and the one lying through her teeth may very well being using the exact same words. Intent can only really be seen through action. If there is no past action to justify those words, then you are gambling with whether she is being honest or a clever liar.

 

Also, just because a person would like to change does not mean they can. I have been with women who 'changed' or wanted to 'change' that clearly did not with me. The easiest thing is to look at how a person treats others and not expect yourself to be the exception rather than the rule.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Sanman

[Titania22]

The only issue I have is this... the honest woman and the one lying through her teeth may very well being using the exact same words. Intent can only really be seen through action. If there is no past action to justify those words, then you are gambling with whether she is being honest or a clever liar.

 

This is the same exact problem I have with dating men. I can't tell the genuine ones from the scammers because they often use the exact same words. This is why I decide to date and then change my mind again shortly after. And men are constantly horrified that I would think they were being disingenuous, but how the hell am I supposed to know.

 

Basically lying women and lying men ruin it for everyone.

[Sanman]

This is the same exact problem I have with dating men. I can't tell the genuine ones from the scammers because they often use the exact same words. This is why I decide to date and then change my mind again shortly after. And men are constantly horrified that I would think they were being disingenuous, but how the hell am I supposed to know.

 

Basically lying women and lying men ruin it for everyone.

 

 

You got me prior to my edit, but I will reiterate. The best way is to look at others and assume that is the rule. For example, your guy says he likes long-term relationships. Does his history bear this out? How about friends? I have known my best friend for 22 years. My next best friend 17 years. I am only 27 years old. Long term bonds are something I value and anyone who knows me sees that in my friendships even if they don't believe my relationship history. The promiscuous women I have dated also have very shallow/ short lived friendships. it goes to their idea of people/relationships being disposable. The friends they do keep are rather poor in quality as well.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Sanman

[thatone]

I don't think anyone has the luxury of abandoning all their choices if they want to get married. I think very few people actually marry "up". I think there are members of both sexes who manage it, but it is all around rare. And also comes back to defining "up" (financially, looks, ethics, sanity, intellect, etc). Even if you make a case for women getting to be with wealthier men then they are, you can make an equal case for ugly guys getting women who are hotter then them.

 

then why do we hear complaints from women all the time who think they should be able to do so....

[Titania22]

You got me prior to my edit, but I will reiterate. The best way is to look at others and assume that is the rule. For example, your guy says he likes long-term relationships. Does his history bear this out? How about friends? I have known my best friend for 22 years. My next best friend 17 years. I am only 27 years old. Long term bonds are something I value and anyone who knows me sees that in my friendships even if they don't believe my relationship history. The promiscuous women I have dated also have very shallow/ short lived friendships. it goes to their idea of people/relationships being disposable. The friends they do keep are rather poor in quality as well.

 

 

Thankyou.

 

Unfortunately with my experiences with meeting men, I don't get to know any of that stuff. In fact except for my husband (and we were together over a decade), I never get to meet a guys friends. Basically the only thing I have to go by is what they say, and as you know they could be lying. I know full well the concept of look at what people do, and treat other people, instead of what they say. But I have never known a guy who was really willing or presented an opportunity to mix with his social group.

[Titania22]

then why do we hear complaints from women all the time who think they should be able to do so....

 

 

I don't know, maybe it's from all the cinderella programming they have had.

[sally4sara]

Alright, I edited your quote to get to the heart of things. Now we are getting somewhere. I don't think that any of the men here are saying that it is alright for them to sleep around and not for women to do so. We are simply saying that many women who are this way are a gamble (and so are male players). I have never said otherwise and used Jesse James as a poor choice for a male mate several times in this thread. Some may reform, others may simply realize they are getting older and need someone to provide for them, and others may mean well and still fall back to their old ways. I don't go into relationships with an official notarized sexual history and three letters of reference. I don't know if she has cheated and lied in the past. I can only go on what she has told me and what I have heard from others who know her. Perhaps the company she keeps as well. I have learned that the chances are that those women who are promiscuous also have many other negative personality traits. Sure, there may be a few that reform, but I am going to get burned many times before I find that one.

 

The co-worker who propositioned me (at all of 23 years old) was 35 years old with two children. She was the party girl that fell for the older gentleman who wined and dined her (and took her to Paris). Now though, he was old, fat, and bald (her words). She was still hot for her age and bored with her marriage and children. As soon as she hit that wall she was back to her old ways and cheated on her husband with at least three men she told me about (I declined her offer). There goes 12 years of marriage for that guy. I don't want to be him.

 

I agree that there are some differences between men and women on the sex front. I mentioned the mental illness issues earlier and how men are prone to acting out, violence, and other anti social behavior, while women prefer self-harm and promiscuity for attention. So, it is much more likely a sign of a personality dysfunction in women as fights and impulsive violence is for men.

 

The other issue was this: If you exclude the top and bottom 5% in terms of attractiveness, for the middle 90% of women it is generally easier to obtain casual sex than for similarly attractive men. A woman, therefore, can choose a single FWB alternative to ONS and still enjoy sex. I enjoy sex and would not hold that against a woman who was not in the position to handle a relationship. While this has come along for some men (myself included) for brief periods, the women I know are able to sustain these types of relationships much more easily. An average guy does not always have this option available and a ONS may be the only sexual pleasure available to him (other than his hands) for several months on either side (before or after) if he is single. Thus, a woman with a string of sexual partners more likely has done so out of intention rather than a lack of other options. I know guys who sleep around as well, cheat, and generally have no interest in their health or the women they sleep with (hence intentional ONS and cheating). I have no respect for those men either.

 

It still leaves you expecting women to forgo their own pleasure however many more times the opportunity is presented to them than men see come their way. If an average looking man gets the opportunity to receive and give sexual pleasure, X amount of times and an equally average looking woman has that opportunity come her way 3 times as often. Math isn't my forte but it does mean you're expecting her to practice restraint 3 times as often when for each one of those times she has the chance, an orgasm is a lower likelihood for her.

Point blank? A person, female or not, wanting physical pleasure is not a sign of mental defect. Its one of the most natural urges out there.

A person so consumed with wanting physical pleasure that they will even turn to a source they think low of or have no regard for simply because of a MAYBE (I might have to wait forever!!!!)? Now THAT sounds like a mental defect and a seriously defeatist attitude. I can't fathom WANTING to have sex with someone I thought very little of that I couldn't wait and seek out a better option without wondering if I had some mental issue. But this is how you are painting life for your average guy? This is your defense on the topic?

How about we cripple 3 capable people for every one born with out the ability to walk because its so much easier to get from point A to point B when you're born fully functional than when you're born handicapped?

[Titania22]

then why do we hear complaints from women all the time who think they should be able to do so....

 

 

Also

 

You know just because women complain, it doesn't mean that they get it, just as men who complain they can't get sex, doesn't mean they start getting it. People generally complain because they have an expectation that doesn't meet reality. It doesn't mean the rest of us have to take their complaints on.

[Sanman]

It still leaves you expecting women to forgo their own pleasure however many more times the opportunity is presented to them than men see come their way. If an average looking man gets the opportunity to receive and give sexual pleasure, X amount of times and an equally average looking woman has that opportunity come her way 3 times as often. Math isn't my forte but it does mean you're expecting her to practice restraint 3 times as often when for each one of those times she has the chance, an orgasm is a lower likelihood for her.

Point blank? A person, female or not, wanting physical pleasure is not a sign of mental defect. Its one of the most natural urges out there.

A person so consumed with wanting physical pleasure that they will even turn to a source they think low of or have no regard for simply because of a MAYBE (I might have to wait forever!!!!)? Now THAT sounds like a mental defect and a seriously defeatist attitude. I can't fathom WANTING to have sex with someone I thought very little of that I couldn't wait and seek out a better option without wondering if I had some mental issue. But this is how you are painting life for your average guy? This is your defense on the topic?

How about we cripple 3 capable people for every one born with out the ability to walk because its so much easier to get from point A to point B when you're born fully functional than when you're born handicapped?

 

No, I just expect her to pick one man and sleep with him 3 times rather than 3 different men just because she can . If she can't forgo them now, will a wedding ring change everything?

 

Put another way, I am 6'1", 215lbs. At my strongest I could bench press 300 lbs. I have also practiced and taught various martial arts for over 15 yrs. If someone pisses me off, I can more than likely beat the crap out them. It is a natural urge after all (we are animals). That does not mean I should do so. I have to control this much more than smaller people because there is often nothing they can do if the person is bigger than them whereas I have the luxury of beating up almost anyone I want. Actually, the law usually puts more of a burden on the larger party in a fight even if they did not start it simply because they can inflict more damage. The mental illness you allude to is the same as if I called a woman walking alone at night mentally ill for fearing for her safety because I do not. Different situations.

[Sanman]

Thankyou.

 

Unfortunately with my experiences with meeting men, I don't get to know any of that stuff. In fact except for my husband (and we were together over a decade), I never get to meet a guys friends. Basically the only thing I have to go by is what they say, and as you know they could be lying. I know full well the concept of look at what people do, and treat other people, instead of what they say. But I have never known a guy who was really willing or presented an opportunity to mix with his social group.

 

 

That is a red flag in itself. I have always at least talked about my friends and how they are even to girls who did not meet them.

[thatone]

to summarize sansrkit's post for the ADHD crowd, if she's read more books, seen more movies, or some other activity than she's watched oprah episodes, she's got potential.

[stepka]

to summarize sansrkit's post for the ADHD crowd, if she's read more books, seen more movies, or some other activity than she's watched oprah episodes, she's got potential.

 

LOL, I read the whole thing and found myself agreeing more than disagreeing.

[Woggle]

to summarize sansrkit's post for the ADHD crowd, if she's read more books, seen more movies, or some other activity than she's watched oprah episodes, she's got potential.

 

Pretty much true. If her view of the world is shaped by Oprah and Sex and the City it is safe to say that she is not relationship material.

[sally4sara]

No, I just expect her to pick one man and sleep with him 3 times rather than 3 different men just because she can . If she can't forgo them now, will a wedding ring change everything?

 

Put another way, I am 6'1", 215lbs. At my strongest I could bench press 300 lbs. I have also practiced and taught various martial arts for over 15 yrs. If someone pisses me off, I can more than likely beat the crap out them. It is a natural urge after all (we are animals). That does not mean I should do so. I have to control this much more than smaller people because there is often nothing they can do if the person is bigger than them whereas I have the luxury of beating up almost anyone I want. Actually, the law usually puts more of a burden on the larger party in a fight even if they did not start it simply because they can inflict more damage. The mental illness you allude to is the same as if I called a woman walking alone at night mentally ill for fearing for her safety because I do not. Different situations.

 

So they each get three rides and its all cool?

 

And of course you shouldn't beat the crap out of people who upset you. Its illegal and leaves you open to law suit. It is not illegal to have sex with whomever you deem worthy of having sex with.

 

There are some streets no one, not even you should walk alone at night.

 

All in all, I get what you're saying. You have a preference and that's fine. We all do. I take no issue with that so long as you can walk what you talk. But to leap beyond and ascribe negative personality traits and even mental issues to someone for being different than you, is a bit douchy.

It makes you come off like you think its some big loss that they won't be out on a date with you or as though they are doing something awful; inconveniencing you by not being in your dating pool. So you won't date them - whoopity doo.

[OliveOyl]

Sanskrit's post sounds like a cocktail of Sex and the City mixed with a shot of Girls Gone Wild.

 

I missed that whole SATC phenomenon while it was happening, although I was curious and caught the entire series on Netflix. Interesting.

[vsmini]

Oh God - Sex & the City and that train wreck Carrie that used men and then let men use her.

 

That show sent so many poor messages and so many women worship it! I think the last season came out when I was a senior in college and even my friends and I were like "these women are f*cked"

[Woggle]

Oh God - Sex & the City and that train wreck Carrie that used men and then let men use her.

 

That show sent so many poor messages and so many women worship it! I think the last season came out when I was a senior in college and even my friends and I were like "these women are f*cked"

 

This show screwed up relationships. When I talk to men in their 40s they can point to a before and after with this show when it comes to dealing with women.