Recognising Self Esteem Issues

[OWoman]

This is going to sound off and isn't meant to be but I don't understand whether you answered my Q or not. But what I was thinking was, if Rooke (and you/me/anyone) is addressing behaviours and looking to shape future decisions I don't think the outcome has any bearing. For example, there were situations that came about or ways I reacted that I would never wish to repeat and it's important to me that I am self-aware in those aspects.

 

It just stood out, your comment, because it sort of plays to the cliché of sour grapes, and I don't think that's necessarily the case at all.

 

But do you not think, Silly, that it could be relevant? If an OW goes into an A from a position of strength, demands - and gets - what she wants from the R, that it's more likely to have an outcome she regards as "positive" (or to walk away the instant she recognises she can't get what she wants) - whereas for an OW who enters an A from a position of weakness / compromise / flaw / however you want to put it (basically settling for something less than she wants because she feels that is all she deserves / is able to get right now), whose self-esteem (or other issue) prevents her from demanding and getting everything she wants from the R, is more likely to have to settle for an outcome she regards as unsatisfactory... wouldn't you say?

[OWoman]

Isn't qualifying availability to a level just the same as unavailable?

 

You're either available or not...if it needs to be qualified then it is essentially unavailable with the exception of in some instances.

 

Not at all - different people want different things. For the woman who wants a man who is available to her 24X7, a guy with a demanding job will appear unavailable since she can't always have the access to him she wants or requires. To the woman who is herself "unavailable" due to other commitments / choices, the "less available" guy with the demanding job (or hobby, or kids, or M, or whatever else) may meet her availability requirements at least as well as the fully available guy (better, in some ways, since his availability requirements will be more attuned to hers, and he won't be upset at her lack of availability). Perceptions of availability are relative to one's availability requirements.

 

In the same way that few people demand 24X7X52 access to each other because they recognise the demands of a job (usually because they themselves have one, and have the same constraints), OWs with multiple demands and commitments themselves are less likely to require the complete availability of the MM provided that his availability schedule overlaps sufficiently with hers - that he's available when she wants him to be.

[Silly_Girl]

But do you not think, Silly, that it could be relevant? If an OW goes into an A from a position of strength, demands - and gets - what she wants from the R, that it's more likely to have an outcome she regards as "positive" (or to walk away the instant she recognises she can't get what she wants) - whereas for an OW who enters an A from a position of weakness / compromise / flaw / however you want to put it (basically settling for something less than she wants because she feels that is all she deserves / is able to get right now), whose self-esteem (or other issue) prevents her from demanding and getting everything she wants from the R, is more likely to have to settle for an outcome she regards as unsatisfactory... wouldn't you say?

 

I do see where you're coming from. And I do know I felt positive that I had drawn a line, terribly sad, but positive for me. But I still needed to think about it, work it through a bit. After all, I went back, albeit under different 'rules' so to speak.

 

I think all I'm saying is that because it's such a complex issue there's learning to be done on all counts, probably, whether you feel good about the outcome or not.

[greengoddess]

Not at all - different people want different things. For the woman who wants a man who is available to her 24X7, a guy with a demanding job will appear unavailable since she can't always have the access to him she wants or requires. To the woman who is herself "unavailable" due to other commitments / choices, the "less available" guy with the demanding job (or hobby, or kids, or M, or whatever else) may meet her availability requirements at least as well as the fully available guy (better, in some ways, since his availability requirements will be more attuned to hers, and he won't be upset at her lack of availability). Perceptions of availability are relative to one's availability requirements.

 

In the same way that few people demand 24X7X52 access to each other because they recognise the demands of a job (usually because they themselves have one, and have the same constraints), OWs with multiple demands and commitments themselves are less likely to require the complete availability of the MM provided that his availability schedule overlaps sufficiently with hers - that he's available when she wants him to be.

Such an interesting statement and the crux of why so many people get away with cheating on their spouse. The spouses trust each other and are not connected at the hip. They expect them to do other things, have other interests and work hard and they expect their spouses to be their for them to cuddle together during the night. Which is what most cheating spouses do. They always make it home in time to spend the entire evening sleeping and cuddling in the family home and the spouses bed.

[OWoman]

I do see where you're coming from. And I do know I felt positive that I had drawn a line, terribly sad, but positive for me. But I still needed to think about it, work it through a bit. After all, I went back, albeit under different 'rules' so to speak.

 

I think all I'm saying is that because it's such a complex issue there's learning to be done on all counts, probably, whether you feel good about the outcome or not.

 

 

Absolutely! The whole experience has been one long learning and growing experience for me, as well as for my H and for our R.

 

When experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

- George Santayana

[Breezy Trousers]

Such an interesting statement and the crux of why so many people get away with cheating on their spouse. The spouses trust each other and are not connected at the hip. They expect them to do other things, have other interests and work hard and they expect their spouses to be their for them to cuddle together during the night. Which is what most cheating spouses do. They always make it home in time to spend the entire evening sleeping and cuddling in the family home and the spouses bed.

 

Very true.

 

* * *

 

Speaking from my own experience, I had low self esteem going into the EA (generally speaking, but certainly exaggerated from a significant life loss). I believe it was that low self esteem that made me appealing to Boss Man, not my wit, looks or sparkling personality. It took me two years to gradually wake up to this fact and take responsibility for that. I wanted to protect the "high" of love fog for a long time, so it wasn't in my interest -- initially -- to examine this too closely.

 

I think if I got into a PA, it would have devastated my self esteem, not to mention my life and others' lives. Fortunately for me, Boss Man moved on to another subordinate who is rather famous in our workplace for low self esteem. No surprise there. Boss Man has tremendous bravado but I think it's all smoke and mirrors to cover up his inner emptiness. The sad irony is that I was seeking esteem from a man who lacked it, despite all appearances. Hopeless.

 

One of my best friends has low self esteem. She's beautiful but never beautiful enough to suit herself. Her three-year affair has moved her self confidence further down the rung. Initially, her esteem appeared much higher than usual. However, that confidence was illusory. It was only higher because MM was giving her the validation she sought, causing her to feel sexy. Once he began the standard games from the MM playbook, her esteem gradually eroded. She's tired of the bad feelings and tears and is trying to get out of it. A part of her believes that things can go back to the way they were, before reality began its inevitable intrusion on love fog, so she's still hooked.

 

That seems to reflect many experiences here, though certainly not all.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Breezy Trousers

[Rooke]

Actuall Owoman, you are VERY wrong about this. My 'advice' was actually based on a diagnosis passed on from my PROFESSIONAL counsellor who does have the experience, qualifications and authority to make this kind of judgement, albeit my situation with my counsellor is MY situation and my situation only, however I thought it may be relevant to other people in similar situations and perhaps not relevant to people in similar situations. All I said in my post was "I think it's important for anyone in an A situation to recognise self esteem issues" ie if this is something that had not crosses your mind, if it has crossed your mind and it has been ruled out then that's fine, so therefore it does not apply to that particular situation if it is moot.

Therefore there is no need to defend or onslaught in any respect, if I read a post that is not relevant to me, then I disregard it.

Nowhere in my post did I state my opinion as absolute fact, nor did ever state that this situation must apply to everyone. All I stated was that perhaps it may be worth considering, it was simply designed to offer comfort and perhaps open issues not yet recognised, there's no need to sh*t all over something that is designed to aid people if they feel they need it.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Rooke
spelling mistake

[oldguy]

Actuall Owoman, you are VERY wrong about this. My 'advice' was actually based on a diagnosis passed on from my PROFESSIONAL counsellor who does have the experience, qualifications and authority to make this kind of judgement, albeit my situation with my counsellor is MY situation and my situation only, however I thought it may be relevant to other people in similar situations and perhaps not relevant to people in similar situations. All I said in my post was "I think it's important for anyone in an A situation to recognise self esteem issues" ie if this is something that had not crosses your mind, if it has crossed your mind and it has been ruled out then that's fine, so therefore it does not apply to that particular situation if it is moot.

Therefore there is no need to defend or onslaught in any respect, if I read a post that is not relevant to me, then I disregard it.

Nowhere in my post did I state my opinion as absolute fact, nor did ever state that this situation must apply to everyone. All I stated was that perhaps it may be worth considering, it was simply designed to offer comfort and perhaps open issues not yet recognised, there's no need to sh*t all over something that is designed to aid people if they feel they need it.

 

I think your advise was good sound general advise. It's like trying to practice psychiatry from a pulpit. Everyone wants to believe your talking to them directly & even if you where some just aren't ready to hear the truth especially when you strike a nerve.

[OWoman]

Actuall Owoman, you are VERY wrong about this. My 'advice' was actually based on a diagnosis passed on from my PROFESSIONAL counsellor who does have the experience, qualifications and authority to make this kind of judgement, albeit my situation with my counsellor is MY situation and my situation only, however I thought it may be relevant to other people in similar situations and perhaps not relevant to people in similar situations.

 

I was not referring to your post, Rooke - I was referring to another post on this thread (since deleted) by a fOW which didn't qualify itself as your (subsequent to your OP) post did to state that it referred to those for whom it resonated only. The post I'm referring to explicitly claimed that every single OW was broken in the way that poster herself claimed to be, and when I challenged her on it, she got very personal and nasty and her post was deleted.

[Silly_Girl]

Such an interesting statement and the crux of why so many people get away with cheating on their spouse. The spouses trust each other

 

excellent news!

 

and are not connected at the hip.

 

good.

 

They expect them to do other things, have other interests and work hard

 

sounds very positive - do you have an issue with a relationship like that gg? Have you ever had one? I have. I wish more couples were able to be like that.

 

and they expect their spouses to be their for them to cuddle together during the night.

 

my favourite

 

Which is what most cheating spouses do. They always make it home in time to spend the entire evening sleeping and cuddling in the family home and the spouses bed.

 

No, they don't.

 

But anyway, are you saying you can't cheat-proof a relationship? Is it an even playing field then? Or are the insecure, joined at the hip jealous types 'happier' (because they're safer from infidelity)?

[Silly_Girl]

Do you really believe the jealous joined at the hips type are safer from infidelity? Would you really want to live like that?

 

You've just asked a question I asked you.

 

Your post sounded disparaging of independent couples who aren't needy and conjoined You seemed to be saying they are more likely to cheat. Did you not?

[donnamaybe]

It sounded to me, and correct me if I'm wrong GG, that she was saying that the cheater types prey on the trusting nature of their spouse and often their AP.

Edited June 7, 2011 by donnamaybe

[jsb58]

I have never shied away from increasing my self-knowledge in the same way that I continue to increase my knowledge in all other areas. So I applaud anyone else who does so, too.

Owoman, if you would please indulge me. If you truly believe the above, why not wish the OP well and move along? I mean no harm, but your continued defense of your self esteem is having the opposite effect.

[Silly_Girl]

Just the opposite. I am saying how easy it is for a spouse from a very well adjusted couple to get away with cheating even when the cheatee thinks they just must know.

 

So it's harder for a couple with a less healthy dynamic to 'get away' with cheating?

[donnamaybe]

So it's harder for a couple with a less healthy dynamic to 'get away' with cheating?

No, they're just more blatant about it.

[Silly_Girl]

No, they're just more blatant about it.

 

??

 

If they're joined at the hip and jealous and suspicious (i.e. the opposite of gg's example couple) I don't see how that would work.

[OWoman]

Owoman, if you would please indulge me. If you truly believe the above, why not wish the OP well and move along? I mean no harm, but your continued defense of your self esteem is having the opposite effect.

 

I have no issue with the OP. But I do take issue when other fOWs come along and tell me what I MUST be thinking or feeling or how I must be broken, because they were. I am not prepared to let the record stand where it contains such blatant lies and inaccuracies. I am not prepared to allow such extreme misrepresentations to pass as "fact", feeding into the most noxious stereotypes and silencing dissent.

[donnamaybe]

??

 

If they're joined at the hip and jealous and suspicious (i.e. the opposite of gg's example couple) I don't see how that would work.

For one thing, if there is all this suspicion, then EVERYTHING is going to be suspect. Therefore, would one really know if there was actual cheating or not? I would think that would lead to the accused getting damn sick of being accused of something they didn't do and just go and do it anyway as a result and not give a flyin' rat's arse.

[Silly_Girl]

not necessarilly but if you do not trust each other you are going to watch each others every move. I do believe you can not have love without trust.

 

If you are in love and trust your spouse why would you ever doubt they are at the office or on a business trip or in a late meeting?

 

What's your point?

[Silly_Girl]

For one thing, if there is all this suspicion, then EVERYTHING is going to be suspect. Therefore, would one really know if there was actual cheating or not? I would think that would lead to the accused getting damn sick of being accused of something they didn't do and just go and do it anyway as a result and not give a flyin' rat's arse.

 

Okay, so if you're suspicious your partner will probably end up cheating, but doing it openly...

[OWoman]

Okay, so if you're suspicious your partner will probably end up cheating, but doing it openly...

 

I wonder if all those people who post about their suspicions on the Infidelity board know that their partners are cheating openly on them?

[Rooke]

I think as Samantha says in SATC, it's like if there's a tree falls in the forest and there's no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?

She says that the act of cheating only exists by the act of getting caught, you can't have one without the other.

I think that's very true, but perhaps only from the betrayed persons perspective.

[fooled once]

Rooke, I'm sorry that your thread has been picked apart as it has. The picking has taken away from the point of the thread which is those who have suffered with low self esteem. I applaud you for having the courage to post about it and how it has affected you.

 

I'm one of those women and it has manifested itself in big ways and small ways throughout my life. It's a difficult balance.......we need to love ourselves but yet not be so in love with ourselves that we treat others badly.

 

Hugs.........Rooke.

 

Ditto

 

I don't mind if people disagree because I realise this wouldn't be the case for everyone. However I don't see the necessity of putting a negative on to a positive. When I first came here it was a huge source of comfort to me and I wanted to return those sentiments by sharing discoveries I have made.

I really whole heartedly believe that had I been more confident I really wouldn't have accepted being kept in the garden like a dog and thrown out scraps on occasion.

 

Rooke, please don't let the negativity and poo poo from others deter you on your journey. Continue to focus on your journey; learn to ignore posters who can't or won't stop the constant jabs at those who have ended an affair and are working on themselves or are looking to share their heartbreaking experience as others. Be proud of yourself and continue your journey. You have come so far. Kudos to you!

 

I've noticed one thing.

 

It seems to me that the majority (I won't say all, but I will say a majority) of the OW or OM posters I've seen on this site and others either struggle with low self-esteem...or a massive excess of it.

 

The ones that aren't struggling with low self-esteem are quite commonly on the opposite end of the scale...they're beyond confidant, they're convinced that what they want is more important than the wants/needs of others.

 

They're commonly the ones that simply don't care who is/will be hurt by the fulfillment of their wants.

 

It's not everyone, nor am I pointing fingers or naming names.

 

But am I the only one who's noticed that it seems that most A partners tend to come from one of these two extremes?

 

Great post as usual Owl!

 

I think the general overall tone is that if a person has been in an A, or is in one, well they must be flawed.

.

 

Psst... Everyone is flawed - in an affair or not

[SoMovinOn]

How so? The BS is being deceived, so she/he is being treated terribly, but second best in what way? Since the BS is led to believe they have something they don't, they don't really know what they are accepting.

 

I was thinking more along the lines, whether the BS knows it or not, of the OM/OW getting all or most of their AP's heart and soul. The AP has already giving up on their marriage, given up on their BS. ... in that case the BS gets second place or whatever.

 

If the BS and the OM/OW were both in mortal danger, and you could only save one, which would you pick? ... that's kind of how I was thinking about it.

[MissBee]

Not at all - different people want different things. For the woman who wants a man who is available to her 24X7, a guy with a demanding job will appear unavailable since she can't always have the access to him she wants or requires. To the woman who is herself "unavailable" due to other commitments / choices, the "less available" guy with the demanding job (or hobby, or kids, or M, or whatever else) may meet her availability requirements at least as well as the fully available guy (better, in some ways, since his availability requirements will be more attuned to hers, and he won't be upset at her lack of availability). Perceptions of availability are relative to one's availability requirements.

 

In the same way that few people demand 24X7X52 access to each other because they recognise the demands of a job (usually because they themselves have one, and have the same constraints), OWs with multiple demands and commitments themselves are less likely to require the complete availability of the MM provided that his availability schedule overlaps sufficiently with hers - that he's available when she wants him to be.

 

I agree.....which reinforces my point that dating married men, long distance relationships,workaholics, emotionally unavailable people etc is usually because you yourself are unavailable and therefore find that limiting capacity to match your own limited capacity. So we're not disagreeing, what you said illustrates beautifully what I mean.

 

I think it was WhiteFlower (if it was not, I apologize) who said something along the lines of her having been married and hurt and how her current arrangement works for her...and I think that's the same type of thing as well, where due to fears, past hurts or whatever it is, the reason why taken people or otherwise not totally available people are attractive to you is because it mirrors something in yourself.