A few thoughts on AFFAIR FOG

[MissBee]

The 35 year old may have the right and the 17yr old may not BUT not for nothing, I may actually have to understand the 17yr old acting a fool more than a 35yr old adult doing the same. Just saying...

 

That as well

[jlola]

Reading the book "The art of seduction" is a real eye opener. It shows how to create anxiety and insecurity to harvast an intense "in love" feeling.

 

It basically states you need to make person feel anxious,as they will in an affair, feel they are doing something taboo, as they will in an affair, create uncertainty, an affair will do that, Create triangles, as affairs do, Create painful break-ups/seperations then reunite(as affair couples often do durinfg the infatuation stage. which no normal couple does),create an us against the world felling(as affairs often do.

 

There are more steps, but basically these steps are created naturally through affairs without much thought. Doing these steps will make a person uncertain,insecure,anxious which makes them latch to each other on more than ever/ The "in love" feeling will be intense.

 

But the warning from the book is after the seduction, everyone wakes up to reality. So you either have tp reseduce or let go.

 

I have a friend who is now going through this "seduction" with a person who has "narcissistic" personality. The steps are being used so blatently on him it is ridiculous. I have shown my friend what is going on. But he says this is the most intense relationship of his life.The high and the exitement of this relationship is all he is interested in. Even though the person who he is in love with is evil beyond comprehension and the opposite of who my friend is.

 

Yes keeping someone uncertain,anxious,spending intermittent time,changing plans last minute to dissapoint,creating rivals and triangles,painful break-ups/make-ups while infatuation is still high, give you a roller coaster feeling no normal relationship will give.

 

Unless you are dealing with someone who has a personality disorder or people who go to those Pick up artist classes to learn how to cause all this drama.

[jlola]

There definately is something about affairs that create an intense feeling of love. I know people personally, also on other boards and this board who claim they are single, but enjoy affairs with married people. almost unamininously, the men say the women will eventually talk about being in love with them and wanting to leave their husbands. women who have affairs with MM say men will stay with wife, but become obsessed with them and say they are in love.

 

I wonder if the single people who date MM/MW have that much sucess with singles. Do the single women or men ALL eventually fall in love with them also? Doubt it. It is probably much rarer to have single men and women declare love so easily.

 

Would love to do a poll with men dating MW and women who date MM. Meaning it is the way of life for them. I bet they have people falling in love with them left and right.. The ones who are married. I bet when they do date singles it is a lot harder to find someone who is going to fall is love.

[ladydesigner]

Reading the book "The art of seduction" is a real eye opener. It shows how to create anxiety and insecurity to harvast an intense "in love" feeling.

 

It basically states you need to make person feel anxious,as they will in an affair, feel they are doing something taboo, as they will in an affair, create uncertainty, an affair will do that, Create triangles, as affairs do, Create painful break-ups/seperations then reunite(as affair couples often do durinfg the infatuation stage. which no normal couple does),create an us against the world felling(as affairs often do.

 

There are more steps, but basically these steps are created naturally through affairs without much thought. Doing these steps will make a person uncertain,insecure,anxious which makes them latch to each other on more than ever/ The "in love" feeling will be intense.

 

But the warning from the book is after the seduction, everyone wakes up to reality. So you either have tp reseduce or let go.

 

I have a friend who is now going through this "seduction" with a person who has "narcissistic" personality. The steps are being used so blatently on him it is ridiculous. I have shown my friend what is going on. But he says this is the most intense relationship of his life.The high and the exitement of this relationship is all he is interested in. Even though the person who he is in love with is evil beyond comprehension and the opposite of who my friend is.

 

Yes keeping someone uncertain,anxious,spending intermittent time,changing plans last minute to dissapoint,creating rivals and triangles,painful break-ups/make-ups while infatuation is still high, give you a roller coaster feeling no normal relationship will give.

 

Unless you are dealing with someone who has a personality disorder or people who go to those Pick up artist classes to learn how to cause all this drama.

 

What a great post. It is amazing that I ever thought the A was so amazing. The feelings of being uncertain,insecure,anxious were always ever so present as well as the changing plans last minute to dissapoint,creating rivals and triangles,painful break-ups/make-ups while infatuation is still high.

 

Looking back the A created such an imbalance and upset that I would never EVER want to be in that situation again. It truly was one of the most "amazing":sick: or so I had thought, disturbing, emotionally painful, uneasy, self destructive time of my life.

[jlola]

Forgot to add. The art of seduction says tyo "Isolate your victim". Affairs are usually secret meetings between two people. Most couples dating meet friends and family.So much about affairs seem to look like a regular relationships. Till you scratch the surface.then you understand the drama they create and the roller coaster ride you get is most of the thrill. Take those things away and few of them last.

[MissBee]

Reading the book "The art of seduction" is a real eye opener. It shows how to create anxiety and insecurity to harvast an intense "in love" feeling.

 

It basically states you need to make person feel anxious,as they will in an affair, feel they are doing something taboo, as they will in an affair, create uncertainty, an affair will do that, Create triangles, as affairs do, Create painful break-ups/seperations then reunite(as affair couples often do durinfg the infatuation stage. which no normal couple does),create an us against the world felling(as affairs often do.

 

There are more steps, but basically these steps are created naturally through affairs without much thought. Doing these steps will make a person uncertain,insecure,anxious which makes them latch to each other on more than ever/ The "in love" feeling will be intense.

 

But the warning from the book is after the seduction, everyone wakes up to reality. So you either have tp reseduce or let go.

 

I have a friend who is now going through this "seduction" with a person who has "narcissistic" personality. The steps are being used so blatently on him it is ridiculous. I have shown my friend what is going on. But he says this is the most intense relationship of his life.The high and the exitement of this relationship is all he is interested in. Even though the person who he is in love with is evil beyond comprehension and the opposite of who my friend is.

 

Yes keeping someone uncertain,anxious,spending intermittent time,changing plans last minute to dissapoint,creating rivals and triangles,painful break-ups/make-ups while infatuation is still high, give you a roller coaster feeling no normal relationship will give.

 

Unless you are dealing with someone who has a personality disorder or people who go to those Pick up artist classes to learn how to cause all this drama.

 

This makes so much sense and further explains some things I have experienced, even outside of an affair situation, but where someone is not fully available so there is this layer of anxiety there that while it is not rampant it is always just below the surface.

 

It also coincides with the idea that high-drama relationships are often highly "passionate" and more "intense", hence more addictive, than healthy relationships that have their highs and lows. I'm learning about how hard it is for someone to respond well to healthy relationships after being involved in high-drama or unhealthy ones as they are so used to that high and healthy relationships seem comparatively way more boring.....

 

Reading a woman's journey from dating unavailable men to her now healthy long term relationship she describes how it took her a while to realize that an "instant connection" and those jittery butterfly feelings were often latent anxiety and not that it was "right" but she was responding to a pattern she was used to and how it took her a while to become balanced and to actually take such feelings as a warning. She discusses how with her current boyfriend she was excited but it wasn't that same type of crazy, intensity that accompanied all her other dysfunctional relationships. I soo can relate and my mind was blown that it's so true...it's almost like doing death defying stunts, you feel excited, almost sick to your stomach but mostly it's cause you're scared and anxious and you KNOW this could very well end up in death why it feels so thrilling. I think affairs and other unhealthy relationships have that element of danger and never truly being 100% safe why they are so thrilling....but for most people there comes a point when you get tired of living on the edge and want some peace and surety. It has gotten to that point for me anyway. ALL my unhealthy relationships, while I recognize them as such, I can't lie and say that it wasn't exciting and came with intense feelings....but I also know the heartache, insecurity and anxiety is so much worst and I want to cultivate something sustaining that can also be exciting but for the right reasons.

Edited June 7, 2011 by MissBee

[fooled once]

Calling "being in love" "fog" is just an attempt to invalidate it by those who feel affairs are morally wrong. You're right, it's no different from "being in love" any other time. Sometimes it turns out to be true love, sometimes you discover that the two of you do not fit together.

 

That's just YOUR opinion, not fact. Although I wonder if it is affair fog after 5-6 years of being a secret or is it more delusional thinking and neediness? IMHO, part of the affair fog excitement is the sneaking around and secrecy. Not so sexy when a couple deal with real life stresses and can't escape it by hanging up or closing out of skype

 

I think some of them are more than sex and fun. Still isn't worth dancing a jig about. But that is the way I see view a married persons sneaking around and lying. If you want the "true love", the "soul mate". Tell the dang truth and get on with it. As they say crap or get off the pot.

 

Great post! I agree

[Breezy Trousers]

So I've been doing a lot of reading through these threads and seen frequent reference to the "fog" commonly associated with affairs.

 

I know that "fog" is characterized by fantasy-type thinking, infatuation, lack of reality, inability to see flaws, etc.

 

My question is, how is that really any different from the normal order of falling in love?

 

I mean -- when people fall in true love, they fall deeply. The want to spend all their time with their love interest. They want to make love all the time. They bond over common interests and ideas. That "infatuation stage" is an important part of the bonding process because it shows you the potential of your union long term.

 

Pragmatically, I understand why people want to add the negative label of "fog" when it's a taboo affair (while most of society collectively wags their fingers)... but in the actual experience, how is "fog" any different from just falling in love?

 

I'm crazy about my AP, and some posters have chided me for my obvious "fog" shining through my posts (no harm was intended and I wasn't offended)... but I don't see how it's any different from what it's felt like any other time I've been in love in my life.

 

Don't we normally celebrate "fog"-like behaviours when single people experience them and fall in "true mad love"??

 

Well, love is different from infactuation. It requires commitment and sustained, open exposure over time. Infactuation is the more accurate word for what you're describing, IMO, and it's found at the beginning of each relationship --- even friendships and work relationships. And, certainly, love fog goes along with infactuation in all romantic relationships. It's called limerance by my husband (and GentleGirl) and it's called New Relationship Energy (NRE) by the been-there-done-that polyamorous crowd who aren't as naive & giddy about love fog as monogamists often are.

 

NRE is intense for everybody. All beginnings are new and exciting. It's why serial cheaters cheat. I believe that they are addicted to the high of love fog and know that its intensity can only be found at the beginning, so serial cheaters are willing to rotate through narcissistic supply pretty quickly to sustain each hit.

 

NRE is notoriously intense and prolonged in affairs because of the illicit secrecy, heightened drama, triangulation, sense of danger, and isolation, etc. In that respect, affairs more closely resemble abusive relationships and addictive processes more than ordinary relationships which are out in the open, supported by the community (no you-and-me against-the-world specialness), and done at leisure. In "normal" relationships, you can see how two people interact with others when out in society, month after month, year after year. It's impossible to see that from an isolated bubble of stolen moments.

 

But NRE is just the initial rocket blast. You need emotional intelligence to keep the rocket in the air. If that is lacking, the rocket will sputter and dovetail. So NRE often promises long-term relationships (committed love) but doesn't necessarily lead to it. People who dated a lot in high school and college already know this. (Cabin, did you date a lot? ... I didn't, so I became very susceptible to love fog "meaning" something.) Remember how Greg Norman and Chris Evert had an affair, left their spouses, got married, and lasted .... 18 months? Remember Mel Gibson and his second wife? That's an example of NRE crashing. (Apparently, Norman found true love again, because he got married a year after his divorce from Evert.)

 

And, of course, there are examples of long-term marriages which came out of affairs. The iconic Paul Newman - Joanne Woodward marriage, for example.

 

Healthy long-term relationships STAY in the air through emotional intelligence and safety exhibited by both partners.

 

Unfortunately, affairs are inherently UNSAFE and not overflowing in emotional intelligence. Affairs are exciting, for sure, but dangerous. Experts know that danger bonds strangers together very quickly. It's why they recommend doing something dangerous together on a first date.

 

And monogamists tend to go crazy during affair NRE. They associate the feeling with the AP. ..."You make me feel so wonderful. I think I'll keep you." Sometimes limerance resembles addiction in that AP will go to compulsive lengths for it, despite obvious consequences -- remember the governor who disappeared from the state of South Carolina while secretly pursuing his OW in South America? lol...

 

Unfortunately, the high always fades with familiarity, regardless of whether love fog is in "normal" relationships or affairs. That's the Catch 22. It's why Susan Cheever said her second and third marriages looked eerily like her first marriage by the fourth year. By the fourth year, her AP-turned-husbands barely looked up from the newspaper at her, and she felt similarly bored with them. (All three marriages ended in divorce.)

 

So it's important to be realistic about it. Love fog is more amplified with affairs, but the risks and challenges are much greater, too.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Breezy Trousers

[Breezy Trousers]

It also coincides with the idea that high-drama relationships are often highly "passionate" and more "intense", hence more addictive, than healthy relationships that have their highs and lows. I'm learning about how hard it is for someone to respond well to healthy relationships after being involved in high-drama or unhealthy ones as they are so used to that high and healthy relationships seem comparatively way more boring.....

 

Reading a woman's journey from dating unavailable men to her now healthy long term relationship she describes how it took her a while to realize that an "instant connection" and those jittery butterfly feelings were often latent anxiety and not that it was "right" but she was responding to a pattern she was used to and how it took her a while to become balanced and to actually take such feelings as a warning. She discusses how with her current boyfriend she was excited but it wasn't that same type of crazy, intensity that accompanied all her other dysfunctional relationships. I soo can relate and my mind was blown that it's so true...it's almost like doing death defying stunts, you feel excited, almost sick to your stomach but mostly it's cause you're scared and anxious and you KNOW this could very well end up in death why it feels so thrilling. I think affairs and other unhealthy relationships have that element of danger and never truly being 100% safe why they are so thrilling....but for most people there comes a point when you get tired of living on the edge and want some peace and surety. It has gotten to that point for me anyway. ALL my unhealthy relationships, while I recognize them as such, I can't lie and say that it wasn't exciting and came with intense feelings....but I also know the heartache, insecurity and anxiety is so much worst and I want to cultivate something sustaining that can also be exciting but for the right reasons.

 

My dear friend --- one of the wisest souls I've ever known -- said, "Uh-oh," when I confided MM approaching me and the ensuing "intense connection" I felt with him. She said that in her experience, such intensity never led to anything good or healthy or particularly positive.

 

You explain why very beautifully. Thanks.

[MissBee]

Well, love is different from infactuation. It requires commitment and sustained, open exposure over time. Infactuation is the more accurate word for what you're describing, IMO, and it's found at the beginning of each relationship --- even friendships and work relationships. And, certainly, love fog goes along with infactuation in all romantic relationships. It's called limerance by my husband (and GentleGirl) and it's called New Relationship Energy (NRE) by the been-there-done-that polyamorous crowd who aren't as naive & giddy about love fog as monogamists often are.

 

NRE is intense for everybody. All beginnings are new and exciting. It's why serial cheaters cheat. I believe that they are addicted to the high of love fog and know that its intensity can only be found at the beginning, so serial cheaters are willing to rotate through narcissistic supply pretty quickly to sustain each hit.

 

NRE is notoriously intense and prolonged in affairs because of the illicit secrecy, heightened drama, triangulation, sense of danger, and isolation, etc. In that respect, affairs more closely resemble abusive relationships and addictive processes more than ordinary relationships which are out in the open, supported by the community (no you-and-me against-the-world specialness), and done at leisure. In "normal" relationships, you can see how two people interact with others when out in society, month after month, year after year. It's impossible to see that from an isolated bubble of stolen moments.

 

But NRE is just the initial rocket blast. You need emotional intelligence to keep the rocket in the air. If that is lacking, the rocket will sputter and dovetail. So NRE often promises long-term relationships (committed love) but doesn't necessarily lead to it. People who dated a lot in high school and college already know this. (Cabin, did you date a lot? ... I didn't, so I became very susceptible to love fog "meaning" something.) Remember how Greg Norman and Chris Evert had an affair, left their spouses, got married, and lasted .... 18 months? Remember Mel Gibson and his second wife? That's an example of NRE crashing. (Apparently, Norman found true love again, because he got married a year after his divorce from Evert.)

 

And, of course, there are examples of long-term marriages which came out of affairs. The iconic Paul Newman - Joanne Woodward marriage, for example.

 

Healthy long-term relationships STAY in the air through emotional intelligence and safety exhibited by both partners.

 

Unfortunately, affairs are inherently UNSAFE and not overflowing in emotional intelligence. Affairs are exciting, for sure, but dangerous. Experts know that danger bonds strangers together very quickly. It's why they recommend doing something dangerous together on a first date.

 

And monogamists tend to go crazy during affair NRE. They associate the feeling with the AP. ..."You make me feel so wonderful. I think I'll keep you." Sometimes limerance resembles addiction in that AP will go to compulsive lengths for it, despite obvious consequences -- remember the governor who disappeared from the state of South Carolina while secretly pursuing his OW in South America? lol...

 

Unfortunately, the high always fades with familiarity, regardless of whether love fog is in "normal" relationships or affairs. That's the Catch 22. It's why Susan Cheever said her second and third marriages looked eerily like her first marriage by the fourth year. By the fourth year, her AP-turned-husbands barely looked up from the newspaper at her, and she felt similarly bored with them. (All three marriages ended in divorce.)

 

So it's important to be realistic about it. Love fog is more amplified with affairs, but the risks and challenges are much greater, too.

 

Excellent and very insightful post!

[MissBee]

My dear friend --- one of the wisest souls I've ever known -- said, "Uh-oh," when I confided MM approaching me and the ensuing "intense connection" I felt with him. She said that in her experience, such intensity never led to anything good or healthy or particularly positive.

 

You explain why very beautifully. Thanks.

 

Thank you!

[donnamaybe]

That's just YOUR opinion, not fact. Although I wonder if it is affair fog after 5-6 years of being a secret or is it more delusional thinking and neediness? IMHO, part of the affair fog excitement is the sneaking around and secrecy. Not so sexy when a couple deal with real life stresses and can't escape it by hanging up or closing out of skype

Yep. The fact that there is a full time real life R makes all the difference in the world.

 

When one is tied to an entirely other life and having sex with another person and sharing children duties, the chores of running a household together, etc., there has GOT to be a huge piece of the "real" full life missing from the A type relationship.

[donnamaybe]

If you are not sneaking around and being secretive then it is not an affair but an open relationship in which no one should be hurt and all parties know the truth of the involvement.

And, therefore, no need to hold anything over the MP's head like telling the spouse.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Breezy, that was hands down the best post I've ever read on this subject on this forum.

[jlola]

So many intelluigent and logical answers. Makes so much sense. The intense anxious feeling in affairs, the "Us against the world" felling would make the affair feel far different than any other relationship.

 

I think therapist should really study the groups of men who claim to only date married women . Most of these men say eventually almost ALL the married women want to leave their husbands for them. So they eventually have to break up with her. I always thought it was so weird reading how easily those married women feel in love.

 

Then I am begining to read about people with personality disorders and it seems they get people to fall on love with them easily also. They usually juggle a few sane folks at a time. Everyone will say the intesity of the persuit, the roller coaster ride, the triangulation the personality disordered person naturally invites makes it the most exiting and "in love" relationship they ever had.

 

Even when they know the reality of that person, the brain becomes used to the drama. Those relationships take a long time to get over. Many seek therapy afterwards.

[MissBee]

There definitely is something about affairs that create an intense feeling of love. I know people personally, also on other boards and this board who claim they are single, but enjoy affairs with married people. almost unamininously, the men say the women will eventually talk about being in love with them and wanting to leave their husbands. women who have affairs with MM say men will stay with wife, but become obsessed with them and say they are in love.

 

I wonder if the single people who date MM/MW have that much success with singles. Do the single women or men ALL eventually fall in love with them also? Doubt it. It is probably much rarer to have single men and women declare love so easily.

 

Would love to do a poll with men dating MW and women who date MM. Meaning it is the way of life for them. I bet they have people falling in love with them left and right.. The ones who are married. I bet when they do date singles it is a lot harder to find someone who is going to fall is love.

 

This is very interesting....

[MissBee]

So many intelluigent and logical answers. Makes so much sense. The intense anxious feeling in affairs, the "Us against the world" felling would make the affair feel far different than any other relationship.

 

I think therapist should really study the groups of men who claim to only date married women . Most of these men say eventually almost ALL the married women want to leave their husbands for them. So they eventually have to break up with her. I always thought it was so weird reading how easily those married women feel in love.

Then I am begining to read about people with personality disorders and it seems they get people to fall on love with them easily also. They usually juggle a few sane folks at a time. Everyone will say the intesity of the persuit, the roller coaster ride, the triangulation the personality disordered person naturally invites makes it the most exiting and "in love" relationship they ever had.

Even when they know the reality of that person, the brain becomes used to the drama. Those relationships take a long time to get over. Many seek therapy afterwards.

 

This actually makes a lot of sense...

 

Now my gears are turning thinking about this.

 

But yes, people for example, who have been in relationships with narcissists often need therapy after to get over it and often find it hard to date normal people again without therapy or some serious self work.