Long Story

[MichiganDutch]

Where to begin?

 

Married 18 years, together 19.

 

One adult child brought into the relationship by my wife from the outset who I later adopted as my own. One child together is nearly adult (17). Second brood of three children five and under for a total of five children. The fifth of the five was a bit unplanned.

 

We married very young. I knew when I met her she needed a father for her son and she wasn't going to wait around for me for forever. I gave up a lot to make that decision and I had resentment for a number of years which made the first five years of our marriage very hard. Gave away a full ride to a very prestigious university to drop out and join the military to support the new family. Things worked out in the end career-wise, though, but I was also too immature and shouldn't have settled down so soon. I grew up as fast as I could.

 

I felt I loved her from the beginning, but now as I'm getting older, I'm wondering if it wasn't more about lust. It's getting hard for me to live with the feeling that I wouldn't even be her friend in a platonic relationship if there had never been any sex involved.

 

Things were going great until about six years ago. I was working from home at that time (when we decided to start a second brood of children) and then I had to switch back to a traditional office job that was very demanding (3 hours of commuting each day on top of 11 to 12 hour days). Things were strained then, but we still managed.

 

Then, three years ago, I had to leave my position again. The recession basically forced me to seek work out-of-state in order to make ends meet financially and a move wasn't financially feasible due to the housing situation and being too far upside-down on the mortgage. I was flying back home for an extended weekend about once per month.

 

This is when I sort of realized that I didn't mind being alone. I missed my children so much, but I didn't have the same feelings for my wife. I felt like the close proximity of my wife for all of those years cloaked the issues. I didn't have enough space to actually be myself, and now that I had that space, I've found I don't really want to go back to that life again. I've since arranged it so that I'm only working away from home three days per week, but every week, I can't wait for those three days to start. This was a compromise that my employer allowed in order for me to try to keep things together at home.

 

I'm not innocent, since I started smoking again when I started working out of state and lied to her about it for a long time before I finally fessed up. I think that was the beginning of a wobble for us since she lost a lot of faith in me since I'd lied to her.

 

If it was up to my wife, we'd declare bankruptcy, get foreclosed on, and I'd get a job at McDonald's so we could all live in a cardboard box somewhere. My sense of reality tells me that my pride would never allow me to survive such a catastrophic derailing of my career. I'd be a miserable grump the rest of my life.

 

My mistake of the past was giving up everything for love. Now I lean toward a more pragmatic viewpoint that money isn't everything, but it makes life survivable.

 

There are other issues that feed into this. My wife has always leaned toward alcoholism. The last few pregnancies were very good times, since she was off the bottle the entire time. Now, she's taken to drinking with a vengeance (two of the big bottles of vodka per week minimum) and is often argumentative, combative, and prone to violence after the children are all tucked into bed. She's a great mom, and she's never done anything to hurt the children (she only drinks after they're in bed), but she often takes out her aggression on myself and her eldest son after she's had a few cocktails. While it's not their place to have to be, the two eldest are still at home to fill in if anything needs doing around the house, including giving the 2-year-old a drink of water at 11 PM if he wakes up when mom is passed out. I've expressed my concerns over this so many times that she's numb to anything I have to say about her drinking habit now.

 

She's put on 90 pounds since our marriage, but I don't care about that (was relevant in another post I read here). I still find her to be a beautiful woman on the outside, I just don't like what's on the inside. Sex is still quite regular, but I feel I'm doing it more now out of pity for her and her sexual needs than for myself.

 

I've told her that I'm thinking seriously about calling it quits after a particularly violent situation with her about two months back. She knows I have a position of trust at my job, so I cannot fight back physically at all (and neither would I want to). She feels that she can do anything harmful that she wants to me (even though she's been arrested for abusive behavior twice during our marriage). A year and a half ago after she tore apart the Christmas tree and then blacked out, I told her it was the last time anything like this would happen or I was out of there. Now I feel like a coward for not leaving her after this most recent outburst that left me with bruises and scratches that I had to hide for two weeks.

 

When she's in a drunken rage, I'm like a trapped rat. All I can do is stay there and take the abuse. If I try to leave the house on foot, she follows, which is neglect to leave the children at home alone. If I try to jump in the car, she jumps in too. If I manage to get in the car and lock it, she jumps in front of the vehicle. If I manage to drive away, she'll either drive drunk in the other vehicle or just walk away from the house leaving the children there which again is neglect. If I lock myself in a room, she'll knock the door down. Basically, all I can do is try to remain as calm and non-aggressive as possible until the morning comes or until she passes out (whichever comes first).

 

She hasn't held a job outside of the house for more than a couple weeks at a time in the past 15 years, but then, she's been very busy with raising children, which I'm very appreciative of. She is a perfect homemaker with making sure all of the children's needs are met, they're properly set for school, pays most of the bills, puts meals on the table every day (cooking is one of her hobbies), and keeps the house up well. She has issues with getting along with other people. She yearns for contact with people outside of the house, but then she just can't like anyone or get along with them for any amount of time.

 

It's hard for me to get over the drinking and all of the conflict and hostility.

 

Since I let her know I was having second thoughts about our marriage, she's suddenly thrown herself into a weight-loss program and some other improvements like cutting it down to one of those bottles of vodka per week. She's now taken nearly 25 of that 90 off.

 

I really think she needs help, though, as she's also had suicidal depression and has been diagnosed with PMDD (which she just completely ignores. All Yaz did was make her bleed constantly so she refuses to do anything about it).

 

I'm worried that if I do leave her, then I'll feel like it's my fault when she self-destructs when our children really need her to be there. I think I'm past the point of ever being able to love her, but I hate the feeling that I've just used her to birth our children and then I'm dumping her.

 

I could definitely take the children and raise them on my own, but that would likely be a faster path to destruction for her since that sometimes seems to be the only thing that keeps her going from day to day.

 

She is able to go three or four days without drinking now, but I think I'm just done.

 

Problem is, despite all of this, I still can't make myself do it. Divorce is so permanent and life-altering to consider.

 

In the meantime, I get to listen to her call me a liar and a coward, which I suppose I deserve somewhat.

[Scarlett77]

You poor thing. You probably know the first issue that needs addressing is her drinking. Or should I say, she needs to adress it. Often the wake up call is when the partner finally puts their foot down, and makes a clear ultimatum.

I was in this situation with my partner, he had a cocaine addiction, I put up with the disappearing, the calls from various people he was sleeping with, making excuses for him at work( we run 2 businesses) threatening his dealers to leave him alone... Finnally I told him" I love and respect you still, but I can't live like this, so I'm leaving. I didn't actually expect him to change, but he did.

 

I have also noticed on this forum, a theme happening. The man runs around doing everything for the wife, taking all sorts of responsibility for stuff, and he mainly gets abused for it( sorry ladies if you don't agree)

I think you need to seriously consider taking the children with you, at least for awhile. Children know when their parents have an addiction problem, and the mother needs to stand on her own feet, and face her demons. It sounds harsh, I know, but otherwise there is no need for yer to change.

Once she has been alcohol free for 6 months, then you can address your relationship.

The children are your responsibility, she is not.

[Scarlett77]

I know it is not as simple as I am saying, I went through years of worry with my partner, on what would happen to him if I left him, ( and still do) however , that is also demeaning to the other person. They need to be able to find their strength, and you also deserve a life. Marriage, or any other love relationship , should not be about selling your soul to another.

Create some clear boundaries, you are not less of a man because of what has happened, just a very compassionate , caring one.

Good luck:)

[MichiganDutch]

Thank-you. I've had an ice-breaker discussion with my wife about the drinking and I've offered to give up the cigarette-smoking as an incentive in addition to working on getting our relationship back on track. She thinks that it's too much to give up the drinking while we're going through the current turmoil, but she didn't close the door completely. I suggested beginning the quitting process on a day when I'll be out of town for work for three days (and I began this by saying that is when I'm quitting). That way, we can actually have the edge of the withdrawal symptoms gone and we'll just concentrate on staying out of each other's way for that next weekend to avoid a withdrawal-induced argument. Probably by the next weekend after that we can begin to have serious discussions again if there are no stumbles. If we stumble, then we start over.

 

I've given her some time to think about it to screw up her courage, and the next conversation we have, I'll let her know that it's either the drinking or me. If she gives up on giving up the alcohol, then I'm going to have to follow through.

 

It sounds so terribly controlling, but I'm not really left with other acceptable options.

[WhisperinnWinds]

Good Lord, is she ever on a downward spiral. You're right in that your family is in a tough spot - she's not working, you have a total of 5 kids, she's verbally and physically abusive, she's depressed, she has a drinking problem (...I'm also overweight and I would probably be persistently hung-over if I drank as much in a week as she did before...probably even what she drinks NOW. And it's not like I'm a stranger to the juice).

 

This isn't just affecting you. I'm sure your kids witness at least some of these incidents. For perspective, I grew up in a household with a very domineering, narcissistic mother. She would explode into verbal rages - mostly at my father, but sometimes at us kids. He sat like a stone wall while she went on.

 

As I grew older, I went from seeing him as a victim of her wrath to a fool. At any moment he could have put the law down - he was the one working and supporting the family, not her - and done something about her abuse. Instead, he became her lapdog.

 

Generally, narcissists pick out their favorite, 'golden' kids and their scapegoats. I was the scapegoat. Eventually, my dad went from just sitting there to joining in with her on her smear campaigns against me. I have been out of their home for a while now, but those interactions still leave me feeling very angry and resentful of them. They were both abusive.

 

So that ties into this: you have the power to leave. She gets into a car and drives drunk. She steps in front of your car so you can't leave. I don't hope she dies - certainly not. But this woman is a self-destructive ticking time bomb, and if you don't intervene, it may well be one of your kids in the car with her one day after she's been drinking.

 

You need to be very honest with her and arrange a talk. Outline all of the behaviors you've mentioned her. Indicate what specific changes you would like to see. Tell her that in order for the marriage to continue, you both need to go to marriage counseling (you may even need to do something with the younger kids, depending on the treatment you've received). Based on what you have described, she is far from a fit mother.

 

Document what you can of her abuse - take pictures of your injuries. Take recordings of Voicemails, e-mails, etc. Call the police if she is ever handling a car while drunk again. No one else deserves to suffer or die because of her irresponsibility. If she attacks you in the future, call the police to get a record of the happenings.

 

It could go either way from here. Clearly she is very stressed with her life. Is there anyway she could go off for a week or two with relatives - while maybe some of your relatives step in to baby-sit and parent your kids for a little while? Your wife needs a break and certainly some time to recover.

 

She needs an intervention or something. And you need to ensure that your kids get the best possible upbringing that they can, away from a self-destructive and abusive influence - or you run the risk that these behaviors will continue on into a next generation. You owe your wife what you can to get her back on her feet - offering to take her to AA, going to counseling with her, asking her about her day, etc.

 

You do NOT owe her your status as a lapdog, allowing her to continue to self-destruct and destroy your family because you're afraid that if you left, divorced her or took the kids, it would be the end of her. Your first obligation is to your children. Build a case for child custody (using the evidence I mentioned earlier) and speak to a lawyer.

 

And get as much support as you can from your own family. Good luck to you...it is not easy.

[MichiganDutch]

It doesn't make sense for her to work now that we have the three littlest ones since the child-care costs would be more than she could bring in due to the minimum-wage job that she would have to take. It would be a losing proposition. I didn't care for the fact that she squandered all of the years that we only had our two eldest while they were in school, though. Right now, it's a little more than three years until our youngest can even go to kindergarten. I'm not one to push someone around, so I allowed her to make her decisions for herself all of those years.

 

I do extremely well to support us, six figures, so money is only an issue from the perspective that we don't have the financial leverage to sell the upside-down house back home. Otherwise, we've been paying as much as we can to the mortgage to get out from under it. Still $50k upside-down at a minimum since the real estate values are very depressed in the automobile parts factory town that we live in.

 

That's another kicker. Since I do have a position of trust, if I went into foreclosure or bankruptcy, I'd lose my job, so just letting the house go isn't even an option. No option to short sell, since we're too far upside-down.

 

The three littlest started off as her idea, since she watched her cousin's infant for several hours a day for several months as a favor. She felt some amount of separation from the infant after that. When that situation ended, we had an 11 year old and a 14 year old, and I think she started dreading empty nest syndrome. Added on to that, our eldest two are boys, and she always wanted a girl. She worked on me for quite awhile before I gave in and agreed that we weren't getting any younger and that if we were going to do it, we had to do it now. It seemed like a good situation since I was working from home.

 

I grew up in a large family and I believe that it's somewhat cruel to allow a child to grow up alone, so I would not have another child unless we had a second. It took us until our fourth to have a girl anyway.

 

She's not the narcissistic type, but there is an odd set of relationships in the family. Her eldest, who I adopted and love as much as I am capable of as one of my own, has a very bad relationship with her. He and I get along. Neither of the two of them have any respect for one another. She plays favorites. I try not to. There are times, though, that it feels like I'm a cat trying to raise a dog. Our eldest and I just don't understand each other like someone of the same blood would. It's just the nature of things and we both understand that we're very different people, but we respect one another's space.

 

Her family gave her an intervention about 8 or 9 years ago. She poo-poo'd it saying that they didn't know what they were talking about and that she didn't have a problem. My belief is that she had the start of a problem back then, but that it was too early for her or I to realize it. She was at the local AA meeting place several weeks back to celebrate her grandfather's 35th year of sobriety (yeah, it runs in both sides of her family). She'll never go to AA, since her grandfather is a permanent fixture there having been involved with AA for decades. He ran a halfway house out of his home for alcoholics. Her other complaint is that the place is full of people that smell like cigarette smoke.

 

I haven't even mentioned one of the more recent stresses. Her father, who raped and molested her when she was a teen, just got out of the state pen after serving 14 years. He was in for criminal sexual conduct for other crimes that he committed against another teenage girl. Alcohol was involved. He never served any time for what he did to her, but my wife did have to testify against him during the trial that sent him away.

 

She's the only one of the three children that kept in contact with him via letters and phone calls while he was in prison. She's forgiven him. She feels that she's over it.

 

Meanwhile, her mother still has her younger 30-some-year-old brother living with her. He has a live-in girlfriend there, they have four children of their own, all living with grandma. Her brother is over 300 pounds, hasn't had a job in over a decade, and plays video games all day long. He lives off his girlfriend's wages as a grocery store worker and food stamps.

 

Though her father spent years cheating on her mother (dozens of times) and was a general pervert and dirt-bag, my wife and her mother somehow think that 14 years in prison have rehabilitated him. I disagree. He's a master manipulator and he's down on his luck now since he's out in the cold world with nobody to call his own and no prospects for a job or any other real kind of life. He was forced out of the military early for sexual misconduct a year or two before he would've received full retirement (something about walking into a women's rest room and looking under a stall door). It was "either get out, or we'll go to court martial proceedings for a dishonorable discharge."

 

Her mother and her father are now engaged to be married again. It's been under six months since his release from prison.

 

Where this is a problem for us is that she's been associating with her father a lot as she plays match-maker between her mother and father. She sees within him a mirror of herself. For some strange reason, she just thinks, "Well, he's screwed up and that's ok, so I can be screwed up too and that's also ok. I can't help it because I'm like him."

 

Not to mention that her brother living with her mother has three young daughters and they are now moving out (finally) to avoid any contact with him (her brother isn't a complete fool). Her father's legally bound from having any contact with minors for the next 18 months anyway. I also have a daughter as does her last sibling, her sister. Nobody wants to have anything to do with him other than my wife and her mother (soon to be his bride).

 

Her mother is a classic victim type, and she's mostly been lonely since they divorced over 15 or 16 years ago. She was married to a coke addict that took her to the cleaners financially, and then had a fling with a nice guy that went back to his wife, but she hasn't had a relationship in nearly a decade now. She's been on a religious kick for years now, and this "forgiveness" and "giving it a second try" all fits in too nicely with the religion.

 

I believe in forgiveness also, but some things are not to be forgotten no matter how much you forgive.

 

I still think my best option is to get my wife sober and see where we go from there. If for nothing else, then I've truly given it my best shot, and hopefully she maintains that sobriety even if I can never learn to really love her again.

[WhisperinnWinds]

Just remember that you can only do so much - it is very hard not to get burnt out and frustrated at yourself when we don't see the changes in others we'd like. The final decision and effort is hers. Remember that regardless of what happens - like you said - she did her best.

 

I would be very wary of letting her father around any of your children - and I would speak to her about that too. Unfortunately, I've had similar situations with people in my own family. I don't think that you can ever trust a molester or rapist again - who would want to take the risk? I'd assume he's on the offender registry, but I'd emphasize your concerns to your wife. If possible, see if somebody else can be on the look-out too.

 

I am so sorry for what you are going through. I hope that things start to look up for you and your family.

[Scarlett77]

Forget the labels of Narcosist, and the others.

 

I agree totally about what you have suggested for both of you to give up drinking. Doing it initially together can be very, very hard.

 

I have developed a drinking problem, after being with my alcoholic partner of 12 years.

 

I send him away for a week, so I can have no alcohol in the house, that way, I can get over it, as there is never a time he won't drink.

 

Also, don't believe popular psychology that an addict has to give up for themselves,that us bullehit. An addict( and I speak from experience) has no sense of self left, they can only give up for a greater love, which is you.

 

You are right MD , clear the alcohol, and then see what's there.

[MichiganDutch]

Update:

 

Well, it's been 9 days no smoking for me and 11 days of AA and no alcohol in the household. She started early on the AA, so I started to quit smoking three days before our agreed-upon date as soon as I realized she had started quitting without me. I appreciate her taking the initiative on this, and other than AA sometimes feeling like a family reunion for her, she's gotten over having others that know her there.

 

No blow-ups. Nothing other than the regular, normal disagreements that regular people have (we know the difference between hurtful interactions and meaningful ones that are meant to accomplish something). We've also gone over some ground rules for fighting fairly just to reinforce how we want to interact when we disagree. It's working so far.

 

Nothing is ever easy, but I think we're both dedicated to making this thing work.

 

I disagree with the doing it for yourself comment. You have to do it for yourself, but sometimes you have to know what the stakes really are. If what you want is something you can't have if you continue on with your ways, then you are by extension, still doing it for yourself to keep what you want if you quit the unwanted activities. I had hoped that my wife valued our relationship more than her habit, but without the bravery on my part to put it to the test, I would've really never known until now.

 

We're having to take it slow, though, since we're both a little bit frazzled after going through this roller coaster ride lately. It's going to take time for us both to build up the trust that things are really headed in the right direction for us. We're having to re-establish some of the bonds as if we're a new couple since I'd grown emotionally distant after feeling hurt so much.

 

Also, it's amazing how much alcohol comes up in regular conversations with others outside the household. I have a hard time being involved in these conversations since I feel burned by my experiences with it. It's hard to let casual acquaintances know that I really can't partake in the conversations due to having a spouse that is an alcoholic, so I sit on the sidelines until the topic passes. I used to drink an average of one or two beers a month, sometimes going two months at a time without a drink. I don't dislike it, it just wasn't that appealing to me. It had been suggested to me that I also join a group for people that have family members that are alcoholics.

 

We're also doing a lot of reading and trading books between us so that we can discuss how we both feel about certain concepts. It's good for now, but there's likely to be pressure points coming up if there is any backsliding or stressful life events. Taking it one day at a time.

[Scarlett77]

Hi MD,

 

things sound like they are improving,and congradulations on quiting smoking!!!!!

 

I very much believe that once the alcohol is dealt with, other things will fall in place. I don't believe in the concept of the addiction personality , but I do believe in what I call the "addicted personality" which is what you become after a while of being actively addicted. It muddies and colors everything, and the addicted person usually lives with a sense of great secret shame and loathing. (Your wife, as she becomes clearer, may actually feel this even more)

 

And I also agree (as I mentioned before) that usually someone has to give up an addiction for another. My partner gave up a 20 year drug habit, simply because I said I was leaving if he contimued.

 

You are right about treating the relationship as if it is a new one, it actually is. Its very hard living with an alcoholic, you still love the person, but hate there actions when drunk. I put up huge barriers to my partner because of his drinking, and it takes a while for them to come down.

 

The reading and trading books sounds like a really good idea, it will also help you to form intimacy with each other again, and also to get to know who each of you are now. You have both been changed through the experiences of the last few years, and now hopefully you can move foreward on a sounder footing. I also think maybe joining a group of partners of alcoholics could help, it sounds like you have no one to share this with, and discovering that your experiences , reactions and feelings in this situation are not uncommon, may give you information and knowledge that could help you in this time. (Plus, a space for you, just to be you)

 

Good luck, and yes, take it one day at a time.