Good things from As

[nyrias]

.... do you live in one of those places where the mail is delivered by unicorns that poop cupcakes?

 

"...the most pain & trauma is brought by discovery." This is a little like saying - hey those injuries from your car crash were caused by your own dashboard. You were fine until you hit that...

 

Please tell me how a BS will experience trauma if he/she falsely believes that everything is fine?

 

It does not make any logical sense.

[nyrias]

Yeah we get it...if a tree falls in the forest but no one is around to listen, does it make a sound?

 

Please take your zen-cheating koans elsewhere, k?

 

Why? I thought the whole point about this place is to face the truth. And if the logic is a little inconvenient, you chose to ignore it?

 

I mean, read carefully. The fact that there is no trauma before discovery is NOT an endorsement of cheating. Once again, is that a knee-jerking reaction towards posts that does not condemn cheating in every sentence and proclaim that it would bring down the earth?

 

To actual combat it, you need to understand it. Ignoring logic is not the way to go.

[ladydesigner]

This is a tough one WW;) Let me see... I don't think I would have had my revenge affair if my H had not completely, utterly destroyed me by his, BUT if none of this had taken place I truly believe we would have divorced. We were headed down an emotionless, passionless, and painful path. We are both to blame for the M falling apart. I think we both realized we WANT to be married to each other and now know what it takes to nurture that. My H was filling a void during his A as I was during mine. I do not think either of our A's happened because of LOVE, it was more driven by need (H needed sex and I needed emotional validation).

[Trimmer]

Why? I thought the whole point about this place is to face the truth. And if the logic is a little inconvenient, you chose to ignore it?

 

I mean, read carefully. The fact that there is no trauma before discovery is NOT an endorsement of cheating. Once again, is that a knee-jerking reaction towards posts that does not condemn cheating in every sentence and proclaim that it would bring down the earth?

 

To actual combat it, you need to understand it. Ignoring logic is not the way to go.

All well and good, but in your minute analysis of semantic details, you are tending to miss the big picture, which is what this thread is about: good coming from affairs.

 

You refuted the statement that "no good EVER comes from affairs" by pointing out that conselors and authors benefit from it. Great, but not at all the point, and it didn't advance the discussion at all.

 

You claim that IF an affair is not discovered and IF STD's don't become a factor, then there is no trauma caused. Again, that may be technically true in the portion of cases where these apply - and I grant that they may apply in some portion of cases - but again: not the point of this thread and not advancing the discussion.

 

So get back on topic: are you claiming that "good" comes from an affair where the affair is successfully kept a secret? Chime in on the topic...

[Linda9999]

Saying that there's no harm when an affair is not discovered is like saying there's no harm being done by that large cancerous tumor that you haven't discovered.

[nyrias]

All well and good, but in your minute analysis of semantic details, you are tending to miss the big picture, which is what this thread is about: good coming from affairs.

 

You refuted the statement that "no good EVER comes from affairs" by pointing out that conselors and authors benefit from it. Great, but not at all the point, and it didn't advance the discussion at all.

 

You claim that IF an affair is not discovered and IF STD's don't become a factor, then there is no trauma caused. Again, that may be technically true in the portion of cases where these apply - and I grant that they may apply in some portion of cases - but again: not the point of this thread and not advancing the discussion.

 

So get back on topic: are you claiming that "good" comes from an affair where the affair is successfully kept a secret? Chime in on the topic...

 

Well, who are YOU to judge what advance the discussion and what-not?

 

If the big picture is that "cheating is a wrong thing" .. well we all know it, and there is no point of discussion.

 

It is EXACTLY exploring the details, the odd cases, the exceptions, the counter-intuitive logic, that the discussion can become lively.

 

The fact that i am getting responses *and* debate on the points I am making is evidence that the discussion is advanced. It may not be in the direction YOU anticipated, but this is the Internet, and no one dictates how discussion should be conducted.

 

Back to your question ...

 

I am NOT claiming "good" comes from an affair where the affair is successfully kept a secret?

 

That is a indefensible, and bad claim (either way) because "good" is NOT clearly defined. That is the reason why I am describing CONCRETE consequences.

 

We just established that a concealed affair leads to no trauma. Does that mean that it leads to no harm ... NOT SO FAST ...

 

a case can be made that it also leads to guilt for the BS, although that obviously varies across individuals. Is that bad? Probably in a psychological context.

 

Thus, it is more worthwhile to be specific about the impact of A, particularly to the psychology of those involved (and i suppose STD & health issues are relevant too .. although that is much more cut & dry and there is little room for discussion).

[nyrias]

Saying that there's no harm when an affair is not discovered is like saying there's no harm being done by that large cancerous tumor that you haven't discovered.

 

The analogy is not logical.

 

Psychological trauma (please be careful .. i am very specific about the consequence .. harm is too general) contingent on knowledge. NO knowledge no trauma.

 

A physical problem (like a tumor) affects a person WHETHER there is knowledge or not. That, in fact, constitute the primary logic behind why affairs, in the context of its psychological effects, should be analyzed differently than physical ailment.

[rafallus]

The analogy is not logical.

 

Psychological trauma (please be careful .. i am very specific about the consequence .. harm is too general) contingent on knowledge. NO knowledge no trauma.

 

A physical problem (like a tumor) affects a person WHETHER there is knowledge or not. That, in fact, constitute the primary logic behind why affairs, in the context of its psychological effects, should be analyzed differently than physical ailment.

 

How do you know that it doesn't affect relationship in some subtle ways? Even without explicit admission it can be figured out something's not right, and it puts shadow on the relation either way.

[nyrias]

How do you know that it doesn't affect relationship in some subtle ways? Even without explicit admission it can be figured out something's not right, and it puts shadow on the relation either way.

 

I don't. That is why I am very specific ONLY about the lack of trauma. There may very well be other more subtle effects (like less connected, less attention ...).

 

But those are not traumatic pain. I didn't claim it has no effect whatsoever, even if the A is not discovered.

 

In fact, it would be extremely interesting to study & determine what are the effects, if any, if As are not discovered. That, however, is very difficult to do, and probably will remain a mystery.

[nyrias]

An affair harms a marriage even if the victim is clueless about the existence of the affair. All that time/energy being poured into the affair by the cheater should have been devoted to improving the marriage, but wasn't.

 

There is no zen affair koan nor Schrodinger's cat quantum indeterminacy at work when an affair exists but is undisclosed.

 

That's the point of the analogy with the cancerous tumor--it's not the knowledge of the tumor that kills; it's the tumor that kills. And it's killing the patient even if the patient doesn't know there's a tumor.

 

Sure. I never claim there is no effect. I only said there is no trauma & the pain associated with it.

 

Now, however, it is not clear to me that every cheater will pour all his/her energy into the A. Is there any evidence?

 

If the BS wants the A undetected, shouldn't he/she at least spend some effort to be act normal? Is it reasonable that sometimes guilt will push him to act even nicer? Isn't sensing an increase level of attention (and extra gifts) sometimes used as a mean to detect As?

 

And like i said before "harming the marriage" is very general .. of course there is always *some* harm (for example, the BS is more likely to leave than one who has no affairs). In the narrower issue of actual effort putting into the marriage, i do not think (but of course there is no research either way) that it is always detectable. In the extreme case where the WS becomes totally distant, he will be detected ANYWAY.

 

For those in long term As without being detected, there must be some balance between the M & the A. In fact, the more normal the BS feel, the less likely the A will be discovered.

[nyrias]

That's the point of the analogy with the cancerous tumor--it's not the knowledge of the tumor that kills; it's the tumor that kills. And it's killing the patient even if the patient doesn't know there's a tumor.

 

And that is why the analogy is inappropriate. A tumor will kill even if there is no knowledge.

 

An A will NOT lead to the trauma & pain of discovery if it is not discovered.

 

If "kill" is the analogy of "trauma", the logical conclusion is totally different and the analogy is flawed.

[drifter777]

 

That people who judge infidelity as a wholesale evil probably elevate loyalty above other virtues. I think loyalty is highly important, but sometimes the things we tie ourselves to were not right for us, and there is a hardship in realising this.

 

Like making a promise you should never have made.

 

First off, an affair does not have a "silver lining" and if you think it does than you are in for a big surprise someday. Simply put, those people who judge it as "wholesale evil" are the BS's that have lived through it.

Better to realise you should not have promised, than to continue the promise once you realise.

Yes, it is difficult to keep the pledge you made to your spouse to forsake all others and many people should never have made the promise to begin with. However, that does not let those that choose to cheat off the hook. Before deciding to have sex with an "other" person, the soon-to-be WS could confront the soon-to-be BS with the news that they are unhappy and need to change the rules of the relationship so they can pursue a physical relationship with another person. I think that the overwhelming majority of the time this will get the unhappy couple to the same place as if actual cheating took place but without the lying and betrayal. At this point, the necessary work to fix the relationship can begin or the couple can choose to split. The physical affair does not need to take place in order to provide a wake-up call for the couple.

I feel for people on all sides, and realise for many an A is a wake up call and they smell the roses in the M.

 

But this is what I have learnt for me.

 

I guess I couldn't stay away yet

 

I believe what I have read regarding monogamy being "unnatural" to human kind and that having multiple sex partners is the evolutionary norm. To me, this is what makes fidelity in our society even more sacred. The promise to forsake all others is difficult but to do so is to take a step forward for civilization. It says you are dedicated to creating a trusting, loving environment in which to live and raise a family. Infidelity destroys this trust-bond and throws the couple into chaos. Whether the individuals choose to reconcile or end the relationship, recovery is difficult and many will never find it.

[Linda9999]

@nyrias: So now you're saying that the trauma and pain of DISCOVERY is what not discovering an affair will not lead to. Allrighty then. You can't say the marriage isn't dead either. It is - the BS just doesn't know it is. The WS does though. That's half the people involved.

[Mr.Harris]

Well, good things came from crap like World Wars or Black death, so I'm quite sure something good can come from affair too. Doesn't mean affair is good overall.

 

Nothing good can come out of an affair.

 

The best thing is that now you're no longer deluded about the partner being flawless - not even close.

 

We never expected our partners to be flawless, just faithful.

[Mr.Harris]

Sure, if you are from the perspective of an outside observer.

 

Doesn't even make sense, man.

 

However, we are talking about pain & trauma. There is none is it is not discovered. In fact, it is well documented, and also seen MANY times on this site that the most pain & trauma is brought by discovery.

 

The marriage is still destroyed.

 

Hence, no discovery = no pain & no trauma, and of course this is conditioned on the fact that STD is not a factor (for example EAs).

 

You keep promoting this warped idea that what you don't know won't kill you and it's old. Even if there are no STDs involved there is still pain and trauma, dude.

[Trimmer]

Well, who are YOU to judge what advance the discussion and what-not?

Ta-da!!! I'm the king of all forums (sorry, I suppose that should be "King") - didn't you get the memo?

 

I'm giving my opinion, which you are as free as everyone else to ignore. As King, I grant you that right.

 

If the big picture is that "cheating is a wrong thing" .. well we all know it, and there is no point of discussion.

Ack! Who are YOU to judge what advances the discussion? (sorry, couldn't resist! )

 

It is EXACTLY exploring the details, the odd cases, the exceptions, the counter-intuitive logic, that the discussion can become lively.

 

The fact that i am getting responses *and* debate on the points I am making is evidence that the discussion is advanced. It may not be in the direction YOU anticipated, but this is the Internet, and no one dictates how discussion should be conducted.

Very well then. I won't if you won't!

 

That is a indefensible, and bad claim (either way) because "good" is NOT clearly defined. That is the reason why I am describing CONCRETE consequences.

Understood, but realize that slavishly adhering only to the "concrete" consequences of an affair is also the refuge of the cheater in denial. e.g. "I haven't really done anything physical yet" while out having drinks with another woman, under the guise of "working late."

 

We just established that a concealed affair leads to no trauma. Does that mean that it leads to no harm ... NOT SO FAST ...

OK, I agree and I'm glad you acknowledge that.

 

...a case can be made that it also leads to guilt for the BS, although that obviously varies across individuals.

Now this is getting lively. Please do make the case for how a concealed affair can lead to guilt on the part of the BS...

 

Thus, it is more worthwhile to be specific about the impact of A, particularly to the psychology of those involved (and i suppose STD & health issues are relevant too .. although that is much more cut & dry and there is little room for discussion).

Although, based on how you opened your post, I have to hope you've now moved past the point of declaring what is or isn't worthwhile, or what there is or isn't room for in the discussion...

 

 

Yes, it is difficult to keep the pledge you made to your spouse to forsake all others and many people should never have made the promise to begin with. However, that does not let those that choose to cheat off the hook. Before deciding to have sex with an "other" person, the soon-to-be WS could confront the soon-to-be BS with the news that they are unhappy and need to change the rules of the relationship so they can pursue a physical relationship with another person. I think that the overwhelming majority of the time this will get the unhappy couple to the same place as if actual cheating took place but without the lying and betrayal. At this point, the necessary work to fix the relationship can begin or the couple can choose to split. The physical affair does not need to take place in order to provide a wake-up call for the couple.

Nice summary. I agree.

[wheelwright]

Yes, it is difficult to keep the pledge you made to your spouse to forsake all others and many people should never have made the promise to begin with. However, that does not let those that choose to cheat off the hook. Before deciding to have sex with an "other" person, the soon-to-be WS could confront the soon-to-be BS with the news that they are unhappy and need to change the rules of the relationship so they can pursue a physical relationship with another person. I think that the overwhelming majority of the time this will get the unhappy couple to the same place as if actual cheating took place but without the lying and betrayal. At this point, the necessary work to fix the relationship can begin or the couple can choose to split. The physical affair does not need to take place in order to provide a wake-up call for the couple.

 

 

I agree with this. If I had spoken about my feelings for xMOM with H before I had my A or the EA stage of it, it would have been an ending too. I don't know how much this would have lessened his pain, but I would have felt very foolish. Imagine. 'WW wants to end her M because of all the problems in the M plus she has strong feelings for a man whom she has had no R with' = roughly, woman with crush goes off her rocker.

 

I needed the A to know how I felt was real. In fact when I eventually speak to my kids about this in years to come, I will be able to explain that something concrete happened which altered my thinking forever.

 

I lost touch with who I am, and the A helped me remember. I was living in a M without soul, and even though the A was traumatic for all, I got my soul back. I lack the killer instinct, and realise that not ending the M before finding love has brought pain to xH.

 

I agree the A was a wrong choice. Do not underestimate the pain of a WS as they witness the pain they visit on the BS.

 

I don't mind when people say it was just plain wrong to have As and discussion is excuses. However, I find it untrue to my version of humanity.

 

It is possible for us to hold two contradictory beliefs at once, in different parts of our psyches. Like the tree is good because it is big and beautiful and full of life, and the tree is bad because without it we'd be in sunshine instead of shade. I feel like that about my A.

 

In future I will plant my trees more wisely, where they cause less unwanted shade.

[GorillaTheater]

It is possible for us to hold two contradictory beliefs at once, in different parts of our psyches. Like the tree is good because it is big and beautiful and full of life, and the tree is bad because without it we'd be in sunshine instead of shade. I feel like that about my A.

 

In future I will plant my trees more wisely, where they cause less unwanted shade.

 

I know what you mean about simultaneous contradictory beliefs. I keep going back and forth between "some poetic talent" and "cluster B disorder".

[wheelwright]

You are essentially offering the thesis: "trauma brings change, some of it potentially positive." I can't disagree. But people also have transformative experiences as a result of house fires, debilitating illnesses, plane crashes, etc. This doesn't justify or validate a person choosing to create such traumas.

 

 

I have no problem with this thesis. But this, in itself, doesn't inexorably point to an affair. An affair is one possible response, among others.

 

The question whose answer really defines your character is: which response will you choose in your path forward from this realization? Deception, of yourself and of others, seems easy - at first, at least. Honesty is more difficult, right from the start, but it is always within your power to choose.

 

Having character and honor isn't necessarily the "easier" path, at least at the outset, but it is ALWAYS available as a choice.

 

I really liked this response, and it speaks to me about future honesty. But I acknowledge that some situations in life require dishonesty - protecting others being the obvious.

 

However, I do see in the case of As, this is at least in part only an excuse and hence a lie to the self. It is that kind of dishonesty which ends up making you feel bad about yourself.

 

I live in a culture where it is frowned upon to fall in love outside of a M, let alone act on such feelings. Where such behavior hurts others. That is a fact I can't deny.

 

I live in my own spirit which feels it is good to fall in love and act upon it and damned with the consequences. That is what falling in love does to the psyche.

 

It is no wonder the dissonance went ringing through me from the moment I realised my feelings up until my recent split with H.

[wheelwright]

I know what you mean about simultaneous contradictory beliefs. I keep going back and forth between "some poetic talent" and "cluster B disorder".

 

I am less interested in disorders than I have been. Poetry rocks.

[drifter777]

I agree with this. If I had spoken about my feelings for xMOM with H before I had my A or the EA stage of it, it would have been an ending too. I don't know how much this would have lessened his pain, but I would have felt very foolish. Imagine. 'WW wants to end her M because of all the problems in the M plus she has strong feelings for a man whom she has had no R with' = roughly, woman with crush goes off her rocker.

 

You are saying that you could not or would not sit down with your husband and say something like "I'm not happy in our marriage and want a trial separation. While separated I plan to see other people and expect you do the same. After some period of time we will discuss whether we should reconcile or file for divorce." I think you could have done this and I think you should have done this.

 

I needed the A to know how I felt was real. In fact when I eventually speak to my kids about this in years to come, I will be able to explain that something concrete happened which altered my thinking forever.

 

I lost touch with who I am, and the A helped me remember. I was living in a M without soul, and even though the A was traumatic for all, I got my soul back. I lack the killer instinct, and realise that not ending the M before finding love has brought pain to xH.

 

Here you are trying to put a "silver lining" on your cheating. Just own it; nothing good came of it that could not have been accomplished with an honest, open conversation. Your act of betrayal was devastating and you hurt your husband more than you know. Also, you will get more understanding from your children by acknowledging it as a mistake than by trying to paint a happy face on something so ugly.

 

I agree the A was a wrong choice. Do not underestimate the pain of a WS as they witness the pain they visit on the BS.

 

I don't mind when people say it was just plain wrong to have As and discussion is excuses. However, I find it untrue to my version of humanity.

 

It is possible for us to hold two contradictory beliefs at once, in different parts of our psyches. Like the tree is good because it is big and beautiful and full of life, and the tree is bad because without it we'd be in sunshine instead of shade. I feel like that about my A.

 

In future I will plant my trees more wisely, where they cause less unwanted shade.

 

You deserve to be happy, and perhaps cheating was the easiest, surest way to end what you considered a bad marriage. What I'm saying is that it was not the only way and certainly not the best way. You made a mistake and you seem to be rationalizing it rather than owning it. I think you will find it easier to forgive yourself if you simply get real, call it what it is, and learn from it.

[wheelwright]

You are saying that you could not or would not sit down with your husband and say something like "I'm not happy in our marriage and want a trial separation. While separated I plan to see other people and expect you do the same. After some period of time we will discuss whether we should reconcile or file for divorce." I think you could have done this and I think you should have done this.

 

Here you are trying to put a "silver lining" on your cheating. Just own it; nothing good came of it that could not have been accomplished with an honest, open conversation. Your act of betrayal was devastating and you hurt your husband more than you know. Also, you will get more understanding from your children by acknowledging it as a mistake than by trying to paint a happy face on something so ugly.

 

You deserve to be happy, and perhaps cheating was the easiest, surest way to end what you considered a bad marriage. What I'm saying is that it was not the only way and certainly not the best way. You made a mistake and you seem to be rationalizing it rather than owning it. I think you will find it easier to forgive yourself if you simply get real, call it what it is, and learn from it.

 

I do think I own my mistake. But I will think about what you say especially re bolded. This has been the single most believable post in terms of me accepting culpability I have come across.

 

I do not intend to paint a happy picture. I hope to help my kids with skills I did not have at a key time in my life.

 

What I am doing is not rationalizing.

 

I was in no place to sit down with H as he was then and discuss things in this way. That is rationalizing with hindsight; something I obviously lacked at the time.

 

I told H all was not well. He said things were fine and he didn't get me. This happened repeatedly. I couldn't name the problem then.

 

H doesn't understand my problem with the R still. I have spent two years post-A trying to help him see and/or heal.

 

There are some issues regarding H that I cannot talk about here. It has been hard to wonder if I am a bad person for the A, but I don't think I am that.

 

The real crime is that H will go on thinking the A did this, but in reality for me, it was a symptom.

[Snowflower]

I do think I own my mistake. But I will think about what you say especially re bolded. This has been the single most believable post in terms of me accepting culpability I have come across.

 

I do not intend to paint a happy picture. I hope to help my kids with skills I did not have at a key time in my life.

 

What I am doing is not rationalizing.

 

I was in no place to sit down with H as he was then and discuss things in this way. That is rationalizing with hindsight; something I obviously lacked at the time.

 

I told H all was not well. He said things were fine and he didn't get me. This happened repeatedly. I couldn't name the problem then.

 

H doesn't understand my problem with the R still. I have spent two years post-A trying to help him see and/or heal.

 

There are some issues regarding H that I cannot talk about here. It has been hard to wonder if I am a bad person for the A, but I don't think I am that.

 

The real crime is that H will go on thinking the A did this, but in reality for me, it was a symptom.

 

Re the bolded...WW, is there any way that at this late stage of the game that you can help your H see that it wasn't the A that did your marriage in but something else pre-affair. That the affair was simply the final coffin nail in your marriage?

 

If you can explain that to your H in a way that can help him understand this, it will likely go a long way in helping him heal. I think many BS who divorce after infidelity blame the affair and never look at what was wrong within the marriage or their spouse or themselves beforehand (pre-affair).

 

Of course, there are situations where the above doesn't apply. I've read about it here but I think many times there are some pre-existing conditions that led to the affair.

 

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm a BS...but I do know that my pre-affair marriage had some issues. Unfortunately, I was the queen of denial and my H was the king of avoidance.

[wheelwright]

Re the bolded...WW, is there any way that at this late stage of the game that you can help your H see that it wasn't the A that did your marriage in but something else pre-affair. That the affair was simply the final coffin nail in your marriage?

 

If you can explain that to your H in a way that can help him understand this, it will likely go a long way in helping him heal. I think many BS who divorce after infidelity blame the affair and never look at what was wrong within the marriage or their spouse or themselves beforehand (pre-affair).

 

Of course, there are situations where the above doesn't apply. I've read about it here but I think many times there are some pre-existing conditions that led to the affair.

 

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm a BS...but I do know that my pre-affair marriage had some issues. Unfortunately, I was the queen of denial and my H was the king of avoidance.

 

Snowflower - I still feel this is important too. I do want to help H heal. It's hard when you are the obvious wrongdoer.

 

In this case, there was stuff from him and me. I do know what you mean.

 

Recently I cried, because someone asked me for my three wishes. And my first was for H to heal.

[Owl]

WW, have you considered that it might not be your H's perception of the problem and issues that caused them that are skewed, but your own?

 

Have you considered that it's possible that your viewpoints are different because mentally you may be rationalizing/trying to find the "good" in what you did, when the pain and "bad" are so evident?

 

That you're trying to find the "good" outcome of all of this because if you don't, that in some fashion validates the idea that you were "bad" or "wrong" for what you did?

 

I've seen this kind of mental judo in a lot of WS's who try to mentally avoid taking true responsibility for their actions and the damage caused by them...and honestly, your posts seem to fall right in that line.

 

Just my opinion...and clearly not even worth the pixels that displayed it.