Good things from As

[29C]

Which promises? Which duty?

 

To be what others expect or need?

 

To bury my own spirit in a culturally prescribed honour?

 

There is no honour in hiding unhappiness in a M, or being ignored when you speak about it.

 

There is always honour in love, even if in an A. It is tremendously disappointing to me that I found a form of love in this hurtful and ultimately divisive way.

 

How about the vows you made on your wedding day, you know, "to have and to hold from this day forward", "fosakeing all others", "having only unto you", "to love you, to honour you, to cherish you so long as we both shall live". You know, those promises. And you are wrong, there is no honour in adultery.

[rafallus]

How about the vows you made on your wedding day, you know, "to have and to hold from this day forward", "fosakeing all others", "having only unto you", "to love you, to honour you, to cherish you so long as we both shall live". You know, those promises. And you are wrong, there is no honour in adultery.

 

Don't worry about her. She's just trying to make herself look good - no reason to take her seriously.

[wheelwright]

You're essentially proposing strength through adversity yes? It isn't exactly a new concept.

 

But I would concur that certain people may benefit in some aspects, from an affair. Of course, many suffer the polar opposite reaction and end up with absolutely nothing. So it is hardly the most reliable learning experience. Although the million dollar question that needs to be raised is why it took an affair, specifically, to instigate many of these concepts that you have thought about, rather than a less...chaotic action.

 

What I find interesting is that you brought up abandonment issues involving your father and step-father (that was you right?) in a previous thread. Obviously, that is no justification for your actions, but have you considered it to be a contributing factor? More importantly, do you intend on resolving the skeletons in your closet before involving others? And how?

 

You undeniably hold "love" in high esteem. But how do you personally define a metaphysical concept like love WW?[/QUOTE]

 

I liked these questions. It is good to be asked instead of commented on as if I were a specimen. Thanks

 

Why chaos?

 

I saw no reason to burden my H at the time of the start of my feelings for xMOM, and I felt acting on them in some way would help me to understand what was happening to me. To my M (dissolving), to me (falling for xMOM). At that time I was not capable of talking it through with H. That is a lesson I have learned now. I understand the knee-capped shock of having got this wrong.

 

However, xMOM was more worried than me about Ms, and probably would have avoided me if I had become single, and I would not, and perhaps never would have experienced that level of intimate encounter.

 

As I believed his wife had never loved him through her telling me so, I did not consider her feelings. I am sorry to say.

 

Abandonment

 

Seemingly, in giving my heart and risking xMOM's abandonment, I have worked through that pain. I am no longer afraid of abandonment. Sometimes life is the therapist. Fear of being left stops you living fully. That is behind me now.

 

What is love?

 

I love this question. Feel eager to encounter its complexity, richness and soul meaning. I look forward to thinking about it for the rest of my life, knowing that my experiences shed both light and shadow.

 

For me love is a state of grace. It is blissful. It is the knowing all is right with who you are with another, and that they feel the same. Like in the Joni Mitchell song, 'Love is touching souls'.

 

These things will perpetuate regardless of circumstances, but the latter will bring these things to the fore, limit them, or over time may erode or even degrade them.

 

Eroded/degraded love becomes painful at worst, compassion for self and others at best.

 

We need to be respected by and behave respectfully to our loved ones in order to ensure erosion/degradation does not occur. That is required for the state of grace.

 

That's what I've picked up so far. Let's hope I've more learning ahead!

Edited June 22, 2011 by wheelwright

[wheelwright]

You undeniably hold "love" in high esteem. But how do you personally define a metaphysical concept like love WW?

 

How do you define it, friend?

[OldOnTheInside]

How do you define it, friend?

 

That's a very good question. I think that, compared to you anyway, I am not a very spiritual person. In the slightest.

 

If I were to look at love, purely on a physiological level, I would say that it is nothing more than a evolutionary adaption for human reproductive purposes. Basically, chemicals released from the brain. As you can guess, I am not much of a romanctic. The times when I am dating, being the exception.

 

However, I do believe that just because something doesn't exist, doesn't mean it isn't real. While I personally don't believe in romance, God, the human soul, life force, karma ect. I can't deny that these examples aren't types of societal memes, that can end up being more influencial than something that does exist. So enough belief in something that isn't physically real, makes it, for all intents and purposes, "real enough".

 

I think that love is whatever we want it to be, but I can't put it in words. It's just one of those things that you have to experience for yourself.

[wheelwright]

That's a very good question. I think that, compared to you anyway, I am not a very spiritual person. In the slightest.

 

If I were to look at love, purely on a physiological level, I would say that it is nothing more than a evolutionary adaption for human reproductive purposes. Basically, chemicals released from the brain. As you can guess, I am not much of a romanctic. The times when I am dating, being the exception.

 

However, I do believe that just because something doesn't exist, doesn't mean it isn't real. While I personally don't believe in romance, God, the human soul, life force, karma ect. I can't deny that these examples aren't types of societal memes, that can end up being more influencial than something that does exist. So enough belief in something that isn't physically real, makes it, for all intents and purposes, "real enough".

 

I think that love is whatever we want it to be, but I can't put it in words. It's just one of those things that you have to experience for yourself.

 

I see you are a different fish from me.

 

Go ahead and experience

[manup]

I do think I own my mistake. But I will think about what you say especially re bolded. This has been the single most believable post in terms of me accepting culpability I have come across.

 

I do not intend to paint a happy picture. I hope to help my kids with skills I did not have at a key time in my life.

 

What I am doing is not rationalizing.

 

I was in no place to sit down with H as he was then and discuss things in this way. That is rationalizing with hindsight; something I obviously lacked at the time.

 

I told H all was not well. He said things were fine and he didn't get me. This happened repeatedly. I couldn't name the problem then.

 

H doesn't understand my problem with the R still. I have spent two years post-A trying to help him see and/or heal.

 

There are some issues regarding H that I cannot talk about here. It has been hard to wonder if I am a bad person for the A, but I don't think I am that.

 

The real crime is that H will go on thinking the A did this, but in reality for me, it was a symptom.

 

You did a bad thing that is still effecting people therefore you are a bad person. It's not a difficult concept. Bad people do bad things, good people do good things. Can people alternate, they sure can, but during your affair you were a bad person.

[seren]

I seriously do not think that anything good can come from an A, I don't think that evryone who has A's are bad people, but I do think that A's are a very bad, p*** poor way of dealing with problems in a marriage. Of course after an A a marriage can be strengthened, but that is not because of the A, it is because of the blood, sweat and tears of the couple to reconcile their relationship. I use the word relationship deliberately as I believe that the pre D Day relationship can ever be recovered. It has to be a new, different relationship with different boundaries, expectations and a clear understanding that if it is to work, that changes have to be made.

 

I simply do not understand how anyone can think it is acceptable, right, a good thing to do something that will hurt another. There is never, ever any justification to follow one's heart while trampling over another's. I have tried to understand it, but cannot, ever get that it takes such a selfish mind set that allows one to get their needs met while lying and ultimately hurting another, especially if that other believes all is well.

 

Love, is not a justification. If you love, then you should do it with all your heart, in fact, I do not believe romantic love has any space left over for loving another romantically. If the soulmate discussion is used to justify an A, then I say crap. Soulmates will move Heaven and Hell to be together and will leave, will not share and certainly will not be able to compartmentalise. My H had an A, yet he is my soulmate, he had an A because of the circumstances at that time, but also because he was selfish and took me and our love for granted. We have reconciled, not because of the A, but because he manned up, told me and has worked hard at trying to rebuild my trust and for him to lose any respect he had for himself.

 

A's are destructive to at least one person in the A triangle, to pretend otherwise, is, IMHO, very shortsighted (general not directed at you WW). I cannot see how any relationship that has it's roots in the pain of another as good, romantic, wholesome or desirable. I would wish an A on no one, I would, however, hope that anyone who pretends to love another, who can gaslight, lie and decieve finally wakes up to the fact that A's are not only unfair they rob the WS of choice, dignity and peace of mind. Not very noble, not the stuff of fairy tales, just down right deceitful and there is no good can come from this.

 

Good things in a relationship come from truth, honesty and two people working toward the same goral as the other. Our goal is to live a happy, fulfilled life, mine is to live my life without doing harm to others, H is now singing from the same hymn sheet as he had been before his A, 8 months of very little has no comparison to 27 years of what we have. He took his head from up his a*** (his words) looked at what he had to lose and feels he has lost self respect for his actions. Not a good thing, not for me nor for him. The good things come from us deciding that we had something unique to us, it doesn't work for everyone, but for us it does.

[Memphis Raines]

only people that are going to tell you that good things come from affairs are the ones that were in them and got their BS to act like they want. call it blackmail or extortion.

 

and sorry, no offense, but I think if a BS does say something good came from the affair, they are delusional. Not talking about the ones that say reconciliation is possible after an affair. I'm talking about someone saying the affair was a good thing or good things came from it.

 

if you wouldn't wish the affair to happen again, or could erase it, then nothing good came from it.

[nyrias]

only people that are going to tell you that good things come from affairs are the ones that were in them and got their BS to act like they want. call it blackmail or extortion.

 

I don't think you need blackmail or extortion to achieve "got their BS to act like they want". Simple lies & manipulation probably will work too.

[Owl]

and sorry, no offense, but I think if a BS does say something good came from the affair, they are delusional. Not talking about the ones that say reconciliation is possible after an affair. I'm talking about someone saying the affair was a good thing or good things came from it.

 

if you wouldn't wish the affair to happen again, or could erase it, then nothing good came from it.

 

MR...we don't always agree by any means...but we agree here.

 

My marriage improved after the affair...but...there are other things that could/SHOULD have been done to improve the marriage that wouldn't have required the affair to make happen.

 

In other words...the affair was NOT a good thing...it was NOT the right answer to fix the problems...and other things should have been done that would have had the same net results WITHOUT the damage done by the affair.

 

We reconciled after the affair...our marriage did improve...but I darn sure wish we'd have gotten to that point WITHOUT the affair.

[wheelwright]

MR...we don't always agree by any means...but we agree here.

 

My marriage improved after the affair...but...there are other things that could/SHOULD have been done to improve the marriage that wouldn't have required the affair to make happen.

 

In other words...the affair was NOT a good thing...it was NOT the right answer to fix the problems...and other things should have been done that would have had the same net results WITHOUT the damage done by the affair.

 

We reconciled after the affair...our marriage did improve...but I darn sure wish we'd have gotten to that point WITHOUT the affair.

 

But could you have really? I talked to H on numerous occasions both about the behaviour which was disturbing me, and about my doubts in the M.

 

Anyway I was frightened of my own feelings so the point is moot for me as WS. The choices I was capable of making were either remain miserable or have an A and then see what happens.

 

That was my hand at the time.

 

I took a proactive route because change was necessary.

 

It's all very well people saying that I should have done something else. I just didn't have the skills or wisdom to follow this more balanced path at the time. Plus my mind was addled - I fell in love months before the A.

 

Is the path of least suffering is always the best?

 

We were all suffering anyway. Shake it up.

 

I'm compassionate about suffering, and try to help people where presented with an opportunity. I have a very ethical way of viewing the world.

 

I used to allow myself to become completely submerged in the needs of people around me. My A was an act of breaking free.

 

Avoiding suffering is not the same as ethics. It's just an important strand, which needs to be weighed up.

 

A BS's suffering will give them a jump start. I'm implying the battery was flat - and if they didn't notice that the WS was in need of something else, then they probably needed the jump.

 

Two people can get their head out of their a$$ in M.

[reboot]

And all anyone is saying is that, if one is perceptive enough, and will educate themselves enough, they'll realize there are better ways to jumpstart that battery than cheating.

[reboot]

And, to agree somewhat, many of us don't do that till it's too late.

[Owl]

But could you have really? I talked to H on numerous occasions both about the behaviour which was disturbing me, and about my doubts in the M.

 

Anyway I was frightened of my own feelings so the point is moot for me as WS. The choices I was capable of making were either remain miserable or have an A and then see what happens.

 

That was my hand at the time.

 

I took a proactive route because change was necessary.

 

It's all very well people saying that I should have done something else. I just didn't have the skills or wisdom to follow this more balanced path at the time. Plus my mind was addled - I fell in love months before the A.

 

Is the path of least suffering is always the best?

 

We were all suffering anyway. Shake it up.

 

I'm compassionate about suffering, and try to help people where presented with an opportunity. I have a very ethical way of viewing the world.

 

I used to allow myself to become completely submerged in the needs of people around me. My A was an act of breaking free.

 

Avoiding suffering is not the same as ethics. It's just an important strand, which needs to be weighed up.

 

A BS's suffering will give them a jump start. I'm implying the battery was flat - and if they didn't notice that the WS was in need of something else, then they probably needed the jump.

 

Two people can get their head out of their a$$ in M.

 

So, when you talked with your H about the behavior that was disturbing you...did you clearly spell out to him how much it disturbed you? Did you outline possible conseuqences/outcomes of continuing that behavior? Did you set a boundary about what behaviors you'd accept in your life, and what you wouldn't...with clearly defined consequences if he continued the behaviors?

 

Did you INSIST and DEMAND on outside help, such as marriage counseling?

 

What ACTION did you take to try to resolve the situation...besides talking...and besides having an affair?

[wheelwright]

Owl, why didn't you take the steps before the A? Did you try and were ignored?

 

Or are you just fallible, and didn't notice?

 

Or are you M to an Oscar winner?

[Owl]

Owl, why didn't you take the steps before the A? Did you try and were ignored?

 

Or are you just fallible, and didn't notice?

 

Or are you M to an Oscar winner?

 

I'll answer your questions if you'll answer mine.

 

I most certainly DID try to take steps before the A...and I wasn't the one who made the choice to cheat. So following what I've suggested...my wife should indeed have been the one to take those steps...but she, like you, chose a different path/method.

 

I absolutely tried to get my wife to sit down with me and help me understand what was wrong, what I could do to fix 'us' prior to her affair. Many, many times. I setup appts to take her to the doctor to be checked/treated for depression...she refused to go. I tried to get her to work on her resume, to get her out of the house more, to help break that depression...she wouldn't put any effort into it. I tried many things to help her see how much the kids and I loved her...but at that time, she was too caught up in her own thing to see. And all of this led to her having an emotional affair anyway.

 

At any point, if she would have worked with me to help identify and resolve the issues...I was VERY open to hear them...we could have fixed things and avoided the situation.

 

So the bottom line was that I DID notice that something was wrong...tried to identify it and fix it...and still ended up being the one cheated on.

 

Questions answered...sarcasm not appreciated.

 

So...your turn.

[wheelwright]

So, when you talked with your H about the behavior that was disturbing you...did you clearly spell out to him how much it disturbed you? Did you outline possible conseuqences/outcomes of continuing that behavior? Did you set a boundary about what behaviors you'd accept in your life, and what you wouldn't...with clearly defined consequences if he continued the behaviors?

 

Did you INSIST and DEMAND on outside help, such as marriage counseling?

 

What ACTION did you take to try to resolve the situation...besides talking...and besides having an affair?

 

Am I especially sarcastic? Not with an honest Q a hope.

 

Firstly, I have not had the emotional strength or line of thinking to outline ultimatums or outcomes at any point in my life prior to A. I am better at that now. Still not my strong suit. I see/saw my role as explaining stuff and letting the other person choose to take action. It was their behaviour which was the problem at this point. You cannot keep someone in line by force.

 

There was one boundary I set (dealbreaker territory). It was broken, lied about and then the breaking was discovered. At that point I was the mother of a one year old baby girl.

 

Other stuff was discussed on numerous occasions, ignored until I lost heart. I could have set a boundary about this, but that's not how I functioned.

 

I can see with dealbreaking stuff you need to set boundaries. To be honest, as a mother of a very young child, someone who still yearned for a good M, I was not in a strong emotional or economic position.

 

Instead I practiced patience and continued dialogue. We had another child. Things got worse.

 

I appreciate there are some people, good people, who stand up to others and say 'you just can't behave like that if you want to be around me any'.

 

I am not like that.

Edited August 19, 2011 by wheelwright

[Owl]

See...this is where I personally struggle to understand that. I believe you when you say that you're not the type to lay down boundaries point blank like that...and I don't mean that as any kind of insult. Some people can do so, some don't. I get that.

 

But where I struggle to understand it is that if (insert whatever was going on) hurt you badly enough to change your moral viewpoint and pursue an affair with someone else...how could it not have hurt you enough to make you want to stop and draw boundaries with consequences?

 

Why affair over boundaries?

 

Both choices require some serious re-tooling of your mindset...but one requires a change of morals and mindset, and results in a situation that you know will be viewed more harshly by others than setting boundaries will be.

[bestplayer]

Well owl you know ww can't answer your question , its obvious people who decide to cheat doesn't give a damn about their M ,let alone taking any step to fix it. The fact is , sensibility or responsibilty is too much to expect from Cheaters .

Get used to it.

[xxoo]

Why affair over boundaries?

.

 

Instant gratification?

[wheelwright]

See...this is where I personally struggle to understand that. I believe you when you say that you're not the type to lay down boundaries point blank like that...and I don't mean that as any kind of insult. Some people can do so, some don't. I get that.

 

But where I struggle to understand it is that if (insert whatever was going on) hurt you badly enough to change your moral viewpoint and pursue an affair with someone else...how could it not have hurt you enough to make you want to stop and draw boundaries with consequences?

 

Why affair over boundaries?

 

Both choices require some serious re-tooling of your mindset...but one requires a change of morals and mindset, and results in a situation that you know will be viewed more harshly by others than setting boundaries will be.

 

I think that's a really good way to put it.

 

And tough to think about. I will be as honest as possible.

 

I expect I had certain consequences for H's behaviour which at the break point (about 3.5 years after initial dealbreaker) I kept to myself. I felt the R was not going to be good for me, but I did not want to split. It was unthinkable with two tiny kids and a 15 year long R. This was not just conscious, it was also deep within me. Everything had gone wrong in a way I COULDN'T SET RIGHT. I admitted that to myself pre-A, but not to H. I was not willing to accept the trauma it would cause. And really, I had given him every chance.

 

The boundary had been broken so badly, that I had no faith at all in the M, but still relied on it. Cowardice there, yes. And also sensible fears.

 

I suppose in this mindset, an A did not feel like cheating.

 

I agree this was horrible to do to H. That's why sometimes I consider the thought that it was a revenge. That was not how it felt though, or feels on reflection either.

 

Not setting boundaries and/or having an A are decisions I have made without much (due?) consideration to how others view me.

[ladydesigner]

The one good thing I have learned from both my H's A's and from my own A is now how to establish good boundaries, what they mean, and never to cross them again.

 

I was never shown good boundaries from my parents. I honestly can say that they were not instilled in me. I have been learning more and more about this in IC and how important it is. My H and I both came from families that did not model good behavior or boundaries.

 

Having to establish good boundaries is what I learned from the A's.

[wheelwright]

The one good thing I have learned from both my H's A's and from my own A is now how to establish good boundaries, what they mean, and never to cross them again.

 

I was never shown good boundaries from my parents. I honestly can say that they were not instilled in me. I have been learning more and more about this in IC and how important it is. My H and I both came from families that did not model good behavior or boundaries.

 

Having to establish good boundaries is what I learned from the A's.

 

I am bit lost here. I would think for a child, boundaries are important and explicit for safety and socialisation.

 

Are we expected to establish boundaries in an adult R? Should we not rather explain how we feel, demonstrate and expect respect, have a degree of patience, and have two way communication?

 

I have preferred to say to people, if you do X it makes me feel Y. I really don't like it when you do X.

 

I cannot imagine saying, if you do X again I will leave you.

[wheelwright]

Instant gratification?

 

Any gratification at all?