Good things from As

[wheelwright]

 

So the bottom line was that I DID notice that something was wrong...tried to identify it and fix it...and still ended up being the one cheated on.

 

Questions answered...sarcasm not appreciated.

 

So...your turn.

 

You sound like a good H.

[ladydesigner]

I am bit lost here. I would think for a child, boundaries are important and explicit for safety and socialisation.

 

Are we expected to establish boundaries in an adult R? Should we not rather explain how we feel, demonstrate and expect respect, have a degree of patience, and have two way communication?

 

I have preferred to say to people, if you do X it makes me feel Y. I really don't like it when you do X.

 

I cannot imagine saying, if you do X again I will leave you.

 

I see what you are saying here. I did have those safety boundaries just not the ones morally I guess.

 

I have also preferred the if you do X it makes me feel Y. But what if they continue to do X?

 

I am still trying to figure out what went through my head as I made the decision to have an A. I guess I felt as if my H had checked out already (with his A's) and I would do as I wish. I had a boundary there and I crossed it, I was married and cheated. That was something I never thought I was capable of.

[ladydesigner]

Also wanted to add that my parents did not display great boundaries. My mom had multiple affairs.

[donnamaybe]

I am bit lost here. I would think for a child, boundaries are important and explicit for safety and socialisation.

 

Are we expected to establish boundaries in an adult R? Should we not rather explain how we feel, demonstrate and expect respect, have a degree of patience, and have two way communication?

 

I have preferred to say to people, if you do X it makes me feel Y. I really don't like it when you do X.

 

I cannot imagine saying, if you do X again I will leave you.

Boundaries are also important and explicit for emotional well being and the strength and solidarity of the R. Are you saying you don't have any reasonable expectations in a R or, if you do and if those expectations aren't met you feel it's better to just suck it up and have an A?

 

Of course people have boundaries with R's. There are boundaries our friends shouldn't cross in our R with them. Most friendship boundaries, though, should be good enough merely implied. For example, when my GF goes off about her H, I sympathize with her and all, but I do NOT put her H down. No one has to tell me not to. As her friend, I would never hurt her that way. But everyone is different, and one thing that hurts one person's feelings or makes them feel somehow wrong about my R with them wouldn't with someone else. Therefore, there have to be some boundaries set, and when the boundaries are crossed, you either have to move the markers or make it clear the behavior won't be tolerated.

 

Put up or shut up. Or sneak around. I prefer the less PA approach, myself.

[xxoo]

Any gratification at all?

 

Is this exaggeration? Surely children, friends, family, work, community, etc provide some source of joy and comfort for people in bad relationships.

 

I didn't mean the instant grat as a dig. I think it might be a valid point that establishing boundaries, fixing or ending, and THEN enjoying a romance doesn't hold much appeal next to the possibility of enjoying a romance now.

 

As is often the case, going for the instant grat digs the hole even deeper, and makes it that much harder to reach the more enduring grat. But I can easily see why so many people choose affair over boundaries.

[wheelwright]

Is this exaggeration? Surely children, friends, family, work, community, etc provide some source of joy and comfort for people in bad relationships.

 

I didn't mean the instant grat as a dig. I think it might be a valid point that establishing boundaries, fixing or ending, and THEN enjoying a romance doesn't hold much appeal next to the possibility of enjoying a romance now.

 

As is often the case, going for the instant grat digs the hole even deeper, and makes it that much harder to reach the more enduring grat. But I can easily see why so many people choose affair over boundaries.

 

I saw it as a dig. Well, it has been known..

 

I am still getting my head around needing to establish boundaries in an adult R. I think I do do this, and often they are implied. When people break these, then are we supposed to deliver ultimatums?

 

My friends all have character flaws. I love them and accept them for who they are. There really isn't anything they could do to change that, other than abandon me or be repeatedly horrible to me.

 

Isn't it a bit pathetic to say, look our R needs you to not be horrible to me. I may have to quit if this goes on.

 

Surely your friends shouldn't be repeatedly horrible in the first place??!

 

I think saying 'you are doing X' 'it makes me feel y' should really be enough. We are not dealing with kids.

 

Boundaries is being banded about here as a piece of therapy gold. They are obvious. Occasionally we come across a grey area. These are easy to discuss.

 

The boundaries are implicit in the communication and in the desire to behave lovingly and reciprocate.

 

Problems crop up, where one person has needs which the other doesn't want to indulge. The need for civility, or sex, or respect or attention or blah di blah. Then the person who won't oblige usually takes the R for granted. It's not really about boundaries, is it? It's just a dysfunction which would take a willingness to resolve.

 

And there's guilt about not being good enough.

 

Or the deaf ear.

 

Or the effing dealbreaker which shatters the heart of the R before anyone even got wise enough to know how to try.

 

BOUNDARIES?

 

They are set out very well in the M vows. And in the fact that you know your MP.

[donnamaybe]

Your own sense of what you will or will not put up with, i.e. boundaries, are what make you not choose to be friends or lovers with a certain person in the first place - outside of someone absolutely hideous or nasty dirty teeth or whatever outside superficial reason repels you. Why would someone abandon them after a R is formed? Some people are great at the bait and switch.

[wheelwright]

Boundaries are also important and explicit for emotional well being and the strength and solidarity of the R. Are you saying you don't have any reasonable expectations in a R or, if you do and if those expectations aren't met you feel it's better to just suck it up and have an A?

 

Of course people have boundaries with R's. There are boundaries our friends shouldn't cross in our R with them. Most friendship boundaries, though, should be good enough merely implied. For example, when my GF goes off about her H, I sympathize with her and all, but I do NOT put her H down. No one has to tell me not to. As her friend, I would never hurt her that way. But everyone is different, and one thing that hurts one person's feelings or makes them feel somehow wrong about my R with them wouldn't with someone else. Therefore, there have to be some boundaries set, and when the boundaries are crossed, you either have to move the markers or make it clear the behavior won't be tolerated.

 

Put up or shut up. Or sneak around. I prefer the less PA approach, myself.

 

Maybe, and I'm not saying you're right mind , women who behave as you advise get better results.

 

I don't know about my future, but if there is another R there, I might consider this alternative approach. It still seems like you are treating the RP as a child though.

 

Perhaps men require that.

[wheelwright]

Your own sense of what you will or will not put up with, i.e. boundaries, are what make you not choose to be friends or lovers with a certain person in the first place - outside of someone absolutely hideous or nasty dirty teeth or whatever outside superficial reason repels you. Why would someone abandon them after a R is formed? Some people are great at the bait and switch.

 

I would have been better advised to pursue this tactic before I became a single mother in her forties.

 

Bait?

[donnamaybe]

I would have been better advised to pursue this tactic before I became a single mother in her forties.

 

Bait?

I wasn't talking about you doing the bait and switch.

 

I mean you know what you're looking for. You find it. Or so they make you THINK so. Then they GET you (i.e. the ring is on, kids are born - whatever) then they drop all pretense at giving a crap about what your needs are. That is a point at which you enforce your boundaries. Drop 'em like a hot potato. NEXT!

 

I know, sounds easy. It's not. But sometimes the things worth having are worth going through some tough times for.

[donnamaybe]

Maybe, and I'm not saying you're right mind , women who behave as you advise get better results.

 

I don't know about my future, but if there is another R there, I might consider this alternative approach. It still seems like you are treating the RP as a child though.

 

Perhaps men require that.

Not unless they ACT like a child. Hopefully it wouldn't come to that. But you should've seen my ex in action. Ish! He would even shoulder his way in to the serving dishes while I was trying to make a plate for our then four year old. Now how would you treat that? Like the child it is emulating? Yep.

 

NEXT!

[Spark1111]

I would have been better advised to pursue this tactic before I became a single mother in her forties.

 

Bait?

 

The first part of the process if to focus on you: what you want, how you feel, what you need for fulfillment, in any relationship.

 

When you know that, than you will be able to assertively set boundaries to protect you! You will no longer ACCEPT people who will not nourish your soul and give equally to you what you give to them. You will no longer justify accepting unacceptable behavior from others under the guise of sympathy.

 

An added bonus? You will no longer attract these types of people into your life. You will be able to spot the selfish, needy, damaged, incapable of meeting your needs people immediately. You will know not to let them in as they will exhaust your spirit, empathy and patience.

 

For many, this process is easy. For others, much more difficult especially if you were not encouraged in childhood to identify negative emotions and express them. Many of us were not.

 

If I say 'when you do x, it makes me feel like y' and the person KEEPS doing x and making me feel like y, and y is unhealthy FOR ME, yep...it is time to exit the relationship.

 

You not only have to identify your boundaries, you have to have the strength to communicate, enforce and HONOR them.

 

If the OP still will not respect them, then either they do not respect you and your feelings, or they simply do not care as how they feel is of more importance to them.

 

So that is unhealthy for you and it is time to deep six the relationship, whether it be a lover or friend or colleague or boss.

[nyrias]

If the OP still will not respect them, then either they do not respect you and your feelings, or they simply do not care as how they feel is of more importance to them.

 

So that is unhealthy for you and it is time to deep six the relationship, whether it be a lover or friend or colleague or boss.

 

This is a very uncompromising view. You choose others. Other choose you. You may end up with no lover, no friend, no colleague or no boss.

 

I can understand to be choosy for a lover and friend. After all, you can always choose to be alone.

 

But boss & colleagues? You really would refuse to work with someone who is a little annal? Or quit (and ask for a transfer) just because your boss rub you the wrong way?

[bentnotbroken]

This is a very uncompromising view. You choose others. Other choose you. You may end up with no lover, no friend, no colleague or no boss.

 

I can understand to be choosy for a lover and friend. After all, you can always choose to be alone.

 

But boss & colleagues? You really would refuse to work with someone who is a little annal? Or quit (and ask for a transfer) just because your boss rub you the wrong way?

 

 

Yes. I have done so in the past and will do it again.

[xxoo]

I saw it as a dig. Well, it has been known..

 

Tone is admittedly tricky, but I don't come here to make digs. I see a lot of people here who seem so stuck in grey (and not seeming very happy), and I sometimes think some black and white might actually be helpful in moving to an overall better place.

 

I think saying 'you are doing X' 'it makes me feel y' should really be enough. We are not dealing with kids.

 

Maybe, in an ideal world, it would be enough. But other people have their own issues, and are not necessarily able to stop doing X....or are unwilling to stop doing X. It is up to me to decide what I'll tolerate in my life, and act accordingly.

 

Boundaries is being banded about here as a piece of therapy gold. They are obvious. Occasionally we come across a grey area. These are easy to discuss.

 

The boundaries are implicit in the communication and in the desire to behave lovingly and reciprocate.

 

Problems crop up, where one person has needs which the other doesn't want to indulge. The need for civility, or sex, or respect or attention or blah di blah. Then the person who won't oblige usually takes the R for granted. It's not really about boundaries, is it? It's just a dysfunction which would take a willingness to resolve.

 

And there's guilt about not being good enough.

 

Or the deaf ear.

 

Or the effing dealbreaker which shatters the heart of the R before anyone even got wise enough to know how to try.

 

This will show how different we are, but I can not imagine moving through life day to day with someone who broke a dealbreaker and not harrassing them about it to the point that they walk out on their own accord. I'm not bragging about that, but it may help explain my perspective.

 

BOUNDARIES?

 

They are set out very well in the M vows. And in the fact that you know your MP.

 

Words and promises mean little if the actions is not there to back it up.

[Spark1111]

This is a very uncompromising view. You choose others. Other choose you. You may end up with no lover, no friend, no colleague or no boss.

 

I can understand to be choosy for a lover and friend. After all, you can always choose to be alone.

 

But boss & colleagues? You really would refuse to work with someone who is a little annal? Or quit (and ask for a transfer) just because your boss rub you the wrong way?

 

Who said rub the wrong way? Not I.

 

But if someone repeatedly disrespects me and my boundaries in how I expect to be treated, when I am treating them with respect, yes, I have to move on to preserve myself.

 

WW, obviously you realize that keeping quiet about your feelings 3.5 years after a potential dealbreaker was a fatal mistake in your marriage.

[donnamaybe]

This is a very uncompromising view. You choose others. Other choose you. You may end up with no lover, no friend, no colleague or no boss.

 

I can understand to be choosy for a lover and friend. After all, you can always choose to be alone.

 

But boss & colleagues? You really would refuse to work with someone who is a little annal? Or quit (and ask for a transfer) just because your boss rub you the wrong way?

 

A little anal? lol I'm pretty certain there are varying degrees of what is acceptable or what we will put up with based on the type of R. After all, we don't have to live with a boss or colleague.

[nyrias]

A little anal? lol I'm pretty certain there are varying degrees of what is acceptable or what we will put up with based on the type of R. After all, we don't have to live with a boss or colleague.

 

Exactly my point. I wont refuse to work with someone just because of a little personality issue. Of course i would have to balance the benefit of collaboration with how big the personality issues are.

[nyrias]

Who said rub the wrong way? Not I.

 

But if someone repeatedly disrespects me and my boundaries in how I expect to be treated, when I am treating them with respect, yes, I have to move on to preserve myself.

 

Really? I can understand in a marriage it is important. But all other relationships?

 

You will pull your kid out of a great school because one teacher (or a parent) disrespect you? You wouldn't be civil just on the occasional days you have to see them?

[Spark1111]

Really? I can understand in a marriage it is important. But all other relationships?

 

You will pull your kid out of a great school because one teacher (or a parent) disrespect you? You wouldn't be civil just on the occasional days you have to see them?

 

OMG! I am always civil, patient and kind. If some continuously disrespects me or my child, like a teacher, I will take my complaint up the food chain and either have the disrespect stopped and monitored or I would have my child moved to another class.

 

To allow my child or myself to be continously disrespected and treated unkindly is a form of emotional abuse. Yes, I would pull him from Harvard if he was being abused daily. And, if you were a loving parent, you would too.

 

Education is not the end all be all panacea some intellectuals seem to believe in.

[nyrias]

OMG! I am always civil, patient and kind. If some continuously disrespects me or my child, like a teacher, I will take my complaint up the food chain and either have the disrespect stopped and monitored or I would have my child moved to another class.

 

To allow my child or myself to be continously disrespected and treated unkindly is a form of emotional abuse. Yes, I would pull him from Harvard if he was being abused daily. And, if you were a loving parent, you would too.

 

Education is not the end all be all panacea some intellectuals seem to believe in.

 

You will pull your kid off Harvard (and btw, by that time, it is HIS choice, not yours anymore) if ONE professor is disrespectful of him?

 

You don't think one needs to learn to deal with disrespectful people? You run away from anyone who is mean to you?

[PatFinkle]

You will pull your kid off Harvard (and btw, by that time, it is HIS choice, not yours anymore) if ONE professor is disrespectful of him?

 

You don't think one needs to learn to deal with disrespectful people? You run away from anyone who is mean to you?

 

I don't know about spark in particular, your question is somewhat rhetorical--but think about how a lot of people react and behave even in a forum like this one. They are frequently hugely oversensitive and so intolerant of other points of view or styles of expression that they will go "running to the mod" rather than putting a post or posters on ignore or framing a good rebuttal to something they read that they don't like.

 

The point of view of "running away" rather than "dealing"--and getting "daddy" or "mommy" or a forum moderator to take care of business for you is just another form of "running away"--is very common.

[donnamaybe]

In this day and age of wealth buying privilege, one might find themselves in an intolerable situation, especially in a snob ridden place like Harvard. Sometimes it is best to remove yourself from a situation that may, through no fault of your own, leave an even bigger black mark than merely walking away and finding an environment that fosters an atmosphere of honesty and justice.

[John Michael Kane]

I don't know about spark in particular, your question is somewhat rhetorical--but think about how a lot of people react and behave even in a forum like this one. They are frequently hugely oversensitive and so intolerant of other points of view or styles of expression that they will go "running to the mod" rather than putting a post or posters on ignore or framing a good rebuttal to something they read that they don't like.

 

The point of view of "running away" rather than "dealing"--and getting "daddy" or "mommy" or a forum moderator to take care of business for you is just another form of "running away"--is very common.

 

I mostly agree.

[mzdolphin]

My marriage is much better today than it was before he cheated. But that is in SPITE of the affair, not because of it. Him doing what he did woke him up - kind of like a drunk losing their home and family before they quit drinking. Is the drinking a good thing?

 

 

How can you be sure he's not still cheating? I ask this because I see folks say this often. I divorced my cheating husband. And later I became involved with a man who lied about being divorced. After I informed his wife, two weeks later, he was still calling me.

 

God bless those who can put that stuff behind them, but I don't know how you can trust that the cheater doesn't cheat again. I believe either a guy is a cheat or he's not. I know for me, I've never cheated on anyone.