Why such pain for BS?

[reboot]

If you stop and think about it, "Blind Trust" is a very appropriate term. What other kind of trust is there? Trust is a gift that can't be earned. When you first fall in love with someone, how do you know you can trust them? You don't. You love them and so you trust them.

 

When someone betrays that trust, how do they earn it back? They can't. There's nothing THEY can do to make you forget the betrayal, to erase the images from your mind. At some point you just have to make the decision to trust again.

[What_Next]

Reboot, you make a very valid point. However, in my opinion once that initial trust is broken it can never be repaired to the status it was in the first place.

 

Do I think I'll ever 'trust' my wife implicitly without question again? Honestly, no I do not. I think I'll always keep one eye open. Now the trick will be not letting that interfere with our relationship.

 

I also used the term blind trust because for me the term is relevant. I do feel I had blind trust, perhaps only in so far as that I took her words at face value regarding almost anything and everything. That is gone. It won't return.

 

I do 100% believe that degrees of trust can be rebuilt by having the WS make an effort, almost on a daily basis to do so. I also agree that one has to make a choice to let that trust be rebuilt, but for me it isn't a switch in the reverse direction, to break that bond might be a switch, but rebuilding it is a process.

 

Rambling I know, sorry.

[Owl]

I agree with what What Next said, but I'm going to modify it a bit too.

 

I believe that once you've been betrayed, your "blind trust" in ANY potential partner after that is impossible.

 

To me...it doesn't matter if it were to be with my wife, or with someone else. I now understand a lot more about relationships and reality...I wouldn't "blindly trust" another person anymore than I would my wife now, who has rebuilt my trust in her.

 

To me...trust is ALWAYS earned.

 

You didn't meet your current significant other and hand her your wallet and house keys within the first couple of minutes. You gradually increased your trust in her as she demonstrated her trustworthiness to you over time.

 

And that's how trust is REBUILT too.

 

And once "blind trust" is shattered as completely as it is when infidelity occurs...it never returns completely. Just look at the "bitter" posters that come here...there's no trust at all for strangers in their minds either.

[nyrias]

For me it was neither of these. It was my faith in him and what I believed was his relationship with God. Knowing what a covenant marriage was and living to that standard. I wasn't ignorant as I discussed with him the "what if's" of being attracted to another person. We were married, not dead after all. We agreed(or so I thought) that when that attraction reared it's ugly head we would discuss it and the reasons we felt that something was happening. I did that. I came to him when I felt like I wanted attention from someone else..so that I would be clear as to what the issue was. He lied. Not only did he not come to me, he sought out relationships, actively pursuing other men's wives(not even single women)....that is his issue to bear.

 

So you believe that a religious person is less likely to cheat? I wonder if that is backed up by evidence or not. Given that this country is predominately religious, and that the infidelity rate is quite high, even if there is an effect, i doubt it is very big.

[nyrias]

Yeah I know. I had ex boyfriends that cheated on me in the past too, so it's not like I had never experienced infidelity before. I guess I was over-confident in thinking my H wouldn't cheat.

 

I would never blindly trust anyone again if I were to find myself single again. I would never remarry that I know for sure.

 

Don't you think you will be a happier person if know this earlier and never married in the first place?

[nyrias]

Nyrias you seem to love quoting chapter and verse on statistics, studies and other matters academic, I suppose there is validity to that, but reading your posts sometimes reminds me why I left university behind during my masters program. The old saying for me applies, there is lies, damned lies and statistics.... Not that I have any issue with your posts, I don't, this just struck me when I read your last one. We all have our ways of expressing ourselves.

 

I do. And you probably can guess my line of work.

 

Let me say this. An argument based on anecdotal examples and personal experiences are very unreliable. That is why empirical science is invented in the first place.

 

I understand your distrust of statistics if you a lay person. To me, statistics is a lot more concrete and revealing, if you understand it. Surely, it can be twisted, but only to someone who is not trained. For someone who does empirically research, it is not that easy to fool.

 

And the results, ie. the modern world we live in with modern technology, is a testament that empirical science WORKS.

[nyrias]

I don't like the phrase "blind trust" as I don't view trusting the person you have promised to live your life with as "blind". Trust, for me, is the foundation of a relationship. If I cannot trust, neither can I love. The "normal" for recovery after infidelity is about 2 years according to stats. For me it was closer to 5 for that very reason. Until I could once again trust him - completely trust him - I couldn't call our marriage "recovered", as for me it was more of a half-life.

 

I don't think I ever had "blind" trust, but I did have complete trust, and I do have that back.

 

You reason is irrelevant to whether a particular bond of trust is "blind".

 

You said, it is a the foundation, and that you have to trust before you can love. Sure, that only said about what trust DOES, not how it formed.

 

"Blind" refers to the fact the trust was formed without a preponderances of all the relevant information, including but not limited to the propensity to cheating in the general population, and so on.

[bentnotbroken]

So you believe that a religious person is less likely to cheat? I wonder if that is backed up by evidence or not. Given that this country is predominately religious, and that the infidelity rate is quite high, even if there is an effect, i doubt it is very big.

 

 

What I said was I believed we held the same values and that if he had those values he wouldn't have cheated. Yes. I do believe that. Religious and relationship with God are not the same thing in my opinion.

[donnamaybe]

IDK. It's my opinion that someone who relies VERY heavily and focuses almost solely on the analytical aspect of things isn't going to be very good at interpersonal R's nor the discussion around them.

[Snowflower]

IDK. It's my opinion that someone who relies VERY heavily and focuses almost solely on the analytical aspect of things isn't going to be very good at interpersonal R's nor the discussion around them.

 

Agreed.

 

Academic discussions are all fine and good but real people are here posting their stories.

 

And their stories should not be treated as simply academic discourse.

[reboot]

IDK. It's my opinion that someone who relies VERY heavily and focuses almost solely on the analytical aspect of things isn't going to be very good at interpersonal R's nor the discussion around them.

 

Took the words out of my mouth.

[What_Next]

I understand your distrust of statistics if you a lay person. To me, statistics is a lot more concrete and revealing, if you understand it. Surely, it can be twisted, but only to someone who is not trained. For someone who does empirically research, it is not that easy to fool.

 

Perhaps you aren't trying to be, but your post comes off as VERY arrogant and pompous. You are making the assumption that the participants reading and posting here are not statisticians. That may very well likely be the case but to assume so is a tell of your personality.

 

Applying this sort of logic to interpersonal relationships is flawed to say the least. Human being are unpredictable and the human emotion can produce results that analytical science would not be able to expain. Then again I suspect that you find it difficult to remove your mindset from academia.

 

like I had posted; this sort of behavior is why I left university to the "learned few". Those who can do, those who can't.....

 

I respect your right to post as you do and more often than not you do bring a credible argument to the discussion but you need to realize that there are some issues that cannot be neatly packaged using statistics.

 

Just my slice.

[TurningTables]

 

 

WW when I was sitting in a doctor's office every six months for a year getting and HIV test was that something I was feeling or something that was done to me? Before I knew what he was doing and I was having yeast infections and abnormal pap tests resulting in constant testing for me, was that something I was feeling or something that was being done to me.

 

The lying prevented my doctor from discovering what was going on. It kept me having test and biopsies...that was done to me. He nor the OW were laying on a table on a regular basis with their legs in stirrups being poked, prodded and cut.

 

Just for the record...I have (with the help of a counselor) looked at all the possibilities in my situation. The "what ifs" have been explored. The "if onlys" have been examined and they all lead to one thing.....my life is my life and no one has the right to decide the risk I should take with it except me.

 

 

My heart went out to you when I read this. If any post here on LS has touched me: its this one. This post more than ANY other one just makes me realize more that I made the right decision by walking away before I did something I cannot take back. I do hope that you are ok.

[nyrias]

Perhaps you aren't trying to be, but your post comes off as VERY arrogant and pompous. You are making the assumption that the participants reading and posting here are not statisticians. That may very well likely be the case but to assume so is a tell of your personality.

 

Applying this sort of logic to interpersonal relationships is flawed to say the least. Human being are unpredictable and the human emotion can produce results that analytical science would not be able to expain. Then again I suspect that you find it difficult to remove your mindset from academia.

 

like I had posted; this sort of behavior is why I left university to the "learned few". Those who can do, those who can't.....

 

I respect your right to post as you do and more often than not you do bring a credible argument to the discussion but you need to realize that there are some issues that cannot be neatly packaged using statistics.

 

Just my slice.

 

Yes, i am assuming no one here is a statistician, or trained in empirical science, except me. So far, i have yet to evidence to the contrary. I am more than happy to discuss statistics and methods with anyone here, for any of the studies and papers relevant to the discussion.

 

"Human being are unpredictable and the human emotion can produce results that analytical science would not be able to expain." This statement alone shows that you don't know the science well. While it is certainly true that analytical science does NOT explain everything concerning human behavior, there are math models that can predict to a high degree. Many of these results are used ROUTINELY in marketing & businesses EVERY DAY.

 

And you are also missing the point. A lot of time, evidence are presented in these studies NOT as theories that explains behavior, but ONLY as DOCUMENTED FACTS.

 

The divorce rate is the divorce rate. It is a fact. It is not a theory that explains anything. Ditto for rate of infidelity, if it can be measured. All of these are relevant to the discussion here.

 

I am sure you have your reason to leave school but i would say it is a huge stretch to say your PERSONAL experience is BETTER than all the studies and research out there concerning infidelity.

 

At the least, it is a stick my head in the sand approach. If you are truly "better", show it by looking into the details of these science/studies/statistics and point out why they are wrong. They have been gone through peer-review, you know?

 

I don't even begin to express how wrong it is to say some random opinion on the internet is more credible than a peer review scientific paper. If that is your opinion, well, nothing can save you.

 

And oh, if you think i come across as arrogant and pompous, i wouldn't mind although that is not my intention. i am a strong believer of reasoning, evidence and logic. MANY of my post are purely fact & argument driven. If pure fact & reasoning would be construed as arrogant, then i suppose you just have to ignore my post. I do not think i will stop posting what i consider factual and good reasoning just because people may have a negative attitude towards them just because of that.

Edited June 15, 2011 by nyrias

[What_Next]

Nyrias I have zero intentions of wasting my time debating you. You are the type of person that I would love to 'debate' over a pint. However, I highly suspect you'd hide in the corner because social interaction makes you uncomfortable. I have nothing else to say to you.

[nyrias]

Nyrias I have zero intentions of wasting my time debating you. You are the type of person that I would love to 'debate' over a pint. However, I highly suspect you'd hide in the corner because social interaction makes you uncomfortable. I have nothing else to say to you.

 

That is perfectly fine. It is not like there is a lack of interaction on LS besides you.

[ladydesigner]

Don't you think you will be a happier person if know this earlier and never married in the first place?

 

I am not sure I would have been happier. I think regardless of whether or not we were married I would have felt blindsided. I view M now as a financial benefit more than anything else. It has lost its sanctity for me. I try to cherish the relationship that I currently have with my H and it is day to day. I have no idea what tomorrow will bring.

 

The part that bothers me the most now is like Pierre said in his post earlier, that I do not know what is truth or lies in what my H tells me. Again this would be blind trust.

[silktricks]

If you stop and think about it, "Blind Trust" is a very appropriate term. What other kind of trust is there? Trust is a gift that can't be earned. When you first fall in love with someone, how do you know you can trust them? You don't. You love them and so you trust them.

 

When someone betrays that trust, how do they earn it back? They can't. There's nothing THEY can do to make you forget the betrayal, to erase the images from your mind. At some point you just have to make the decision to trust again.

I hear what you're saying I just don't like (and never have liked) the phrase. It implies (to me) "stupid" trust. Like I'm going to shut my eyes and trust this person despite anything that tells me I shouldn't. I'm not saying that's what it means to everyone, but that is what it means to me.

 

Trusting someone you love is (again for me) built upon more than blind faith. Just like it takes awhile to grow to love someone, it takes awhile to grow to trust someone. In my opinion they grow hand-in-hand. When one is shattered, the other is shaken to the bedrock as well. Can it be regained? I say yes it can, both love and trust can be regained - however - it takes an insane amount of work for both partners.

 

I do agree that at some point you have to make some decisions, but I disagree that there's nothing your partner can do to earn back your trust. In fact, I would say that is the crux of recovering a marriage - doing everything possible to earn back trust. At some point, though, the wounded partner (BS) does need to take that final leap and say - this is enough.

 

JMO

Silk

[nyrias]

I am not sure I would have been happier. I think regardless of whether or not we were married I would have felt blindsided. I view M now as a financial benefit more than anything else. It has lost its sanctity for me. I try to cherish the relationship that I currently have with my H and it is day to day. I have no idea what tomorrow will bring.

 

The part that bothers me the most now is like Pierre said in his post earlier, that I do not know what is truth or lies in what my H tells me. Again this would be blind trust.

 

I mean if you would be happier if you were never in a committed monogamous relationship?

 

I suppose it is a catch-22 with marriage. Since total verification is not possible, trust has to be 'blind" to some extent. So the question is whether the marriage institution is flawed because it promote the idea of total trust.

 

If marriage is more a contractual relationship (we manage finances together, we have a exclusive relationship 80% of the time, and no promises for the rest of the 20% .. and no expectation to stay truthful), then there will be less problems in the world.

[reboot]

At some point, though, the wounded partner (BS) does need to take that final leap and say - this is enough.

 

And that was my entire point.

[ladydesigner]

I hear what you're saying I just don't like (and never have liked) the phrase. It implies (to me) "stupid" trust. Like I'm going to shut my eyes and trust this person despite anything that tells me I shouldn't. I'm not saying that's what it means to everyone, but that is what it means to me.

 

Trusting someone you love is (again for me) built upon more than blind faith. Just like it takes awhile to grow to love someone, it takes awhile to grow to trust someone. In my opinion they grow hand-in-hand. When one is shattered, the other is shaken to the bedrock as well. Can it be regained? I say yes it can, both love and trust can be regained - however - it takes an insane amount of work for both partners.

 

I do agree that at some point you have to make some decisions, but I disagree that there's nothing your partner can do to earn back your trust. In fact, I would say that is the crux of recovering a marriage - doing everything possible to earn back trust. At some point, though, the wounded partner (BS) does need to take that final leap and say - this is enough.

 

JMO

Silk

 

Ha Ha Ha Silk I had a good laugh at the bolded because it is exactly what it feels like sometimes a "stupid trust" I'm currently trying to build that back up to an honest trust:p

[xxoo]

Yes, i am assuming no one here is a statistician, or trained in empirical science, except me. So far, i have yet to evidence to the contrary. I am more than happy to discuss statistics and methods with anyone here, for any of the studies and papers relevant to the discussion.

 

Don't assume

 

Honestly, I'm surprised to see you present as an expert in statistics, considering some of the links you've posted.

[ladydesigner]

I mean if you would be happier if you were never in a committed monogamous relationship?

 

You know I am not sure. My H and I have discussed open marriage before and sex with other partners as long as we were both present. Not sure where that will lead to or if it is just a fantasy for both of us. I do think that if the idea of monogamy was never present we probably would be happy in an open relationship. I'm not quite sure I believe completely in monogamy.

 

I suppose it is a catch-22 with marriage. Since total verification is not possible, trust has to be 'blind" to some extent. So the question is whether the marriage institution is flawed because it promote the idea of total trust.

 

If marriage is more a contractual relationship (we manage finances together, we have a exclusive relationship 80% of the time, and no promises for the rest of the 20% .. and no expectation to stay truthful), then there will be less problems in the world.

 

My first response is bolded.

 

Also, I do believe what you said about trust being a catch-22 and in the marriage institution being flawed for sure.

[donnamaybe]

The institution of marriage is only as flawed as the people in each particular R.

[soserious1]

Why was my ex-husband's infidelity so painful?

 

1. The constant lies, the distortion of reality that had me questioning

my sanity.

 

2.our sexless marriage that led me to grovel, beg to demean myself seeking any crumb of affection from my husband

 

3. The number he did on my self-esteem, his insistence that my desiring intimacy after menopause was disgusting, that I was a disgusting old woman

 

4. the fact that while he surfed for porn, paid for web cam girls & cruised craig's list for women, I was working to support him

 

5. That he had the balls to go after & win a generous alimony award, I'll be most likely dropping dead in my office because I can't afford to retire now.

 

and yes, I'd be a LOT happier now if I'd never been married, now I get to spend the rest of my life working to pay for my mistake.

Edited June 15, 2011 by soserious1