Next steps?

[John Michael Kane]

JMK, I was a BS, my marriage is not better than ever, it is in fact over for all practical purposes. I, however, refuse to become a bitter, bile spewing, shell of a human being that some here seem to be. I tried to reconcile, it didn't work out. I'll never be sorry I tried. The hatred I read here is astonishing.

 

There is no hatred here, and no one is faulting you for trying. But if the obvious is obvious, there's no point in wasting anymore time.

[Kidd]

I wasn't so much offended by characterizations of my wife. They are fair statements in most cases based on her actions. But I found myself overly influenced by the convincing, "run, get an attorney now, she's still f..king the other man-type advice." In most cases, they are probably right and trying to save me more time in anguish. But I allowed it to overshadow my own thoughts and they convinced me I couldn't trust my own thoughts either. It was right to influence me to tell the OMW but the paranoia that led me to also also discuss it with her father last night was wrong. I made an emotional decision convinced that she would go ballistic and we'd be done. I was saying goodbye to her family but instead I've severely damaged my chances at reconciliation. I should have calmed down, let things unfold more slowly, and kept my head in the game. Now she has a justified reason to be pissed that won't exactly be fixed easily. The SAA book reinforced the paranoia by implying that almost all EA's return to the A and suddenly (yesterday) I was interpreting every action in the worst possible light. There is a lot of justifiable doom and gloom on here because BSs lose no only their spouse but house, car, kids, family, and sometimes career. But not all situations are the same. Not all cheaters are evil. Some people can realize the error of their ways and make changes. I understand those that would never try (why should you have to?). I've got a lot invested here and while R is nearly impossible, I wanted to see if it's possible. While my WS was trying everything she knew, she doesn't have a guidebook either. I can understand reluctance to just leaving a 21 year career and angst about rigid transparency and reluctance to exposure. She's coming around, out of the fog as they say. But in my paranoia and without any real evidence to the contrary, I sabotaged my own hopes. I can still blame her if I like (I didn't create this situation) but at some point I have to be responsible for my own decisions, too.

[Spark1111]

I wasn't so much offended by characterizations of my wife. They are fair statements in most cases based on her actions. But I found myself overly influenced by the convincing, "run, get an attorney now, she's still f..king the other man-type advice." In most cases, they are probably right and trying to save me more time in anguish. But I allowed it to overshadow my own thoughts and they convinced me I couldn't trust my own thoughts either. It was right to influence me to tell the OMW but the paranoia that led me to also also discuss it with her father last night was wrong. I made an emotional decision convinced that she would go ballistic and we'd be done. I was saying goodbye to her family but instead I've severely damaged my chances at reconciliation. I should have calmed down, let things unfold more slowly, and kept my head in the game. Now she has a justified reason to be pissed that won't exactly be fixed easily. The SAA book reinforced the paranoia by implying that almost all EA's return to the A and suddenly (yesterday) I was interpreting every action in the worst possible light. There is a lot of justifiable doom and gloom on here because BSs lose no only their spouse but house, car, kids, family, and sometimes career. But not all situations are the same. Not all cheaters are evil. Some people can realize the error of their ways and make changes. I understand those that would never try (why should you have to?). I've got a lot invested here and while R is nearly impossible, I wanted to see if it's possible. While my WS was trying everything she knew, she doesn't have a guidebook either. I can understand reluctance to just leaving a 21 year career and angst about rigid transparency and reluctance to exposure. She's coming around, out of the fog as they say. But in my paranoia and without any real evidence to the contrary, I sabotaged my own hopes. I can still blame her if I like (I didn't create this situation) but at some point I have to be responsible for my own decisions, too.

 

Exactly, and personal responsibility for our actions is a very valid perception so soon after a DDAY.

 

Follow your instincts, trust your intuition. It won't be easy, but all we can control at the end of the day is how we choose to react to people and situations thrown our way.

 

Good luck to you and your wife, whatever the future may hold.

[John Michael Kane]

The denial that amazes me is that of those that come on here bitter that their own marriage failed and so end up convinced that it's impossible to reconcile that they're completely unable to accept that any other outcome than what happened to them is possible.

 

Not true. It's those who still come here after years talking about their marriages became improved because their spouse had sex with someone else. Or how "reconciliation sex" is the best ever. It's like they're seriously eating everything their cheating spouse feeds them. Talking about how they fantasize about killing the OM/OW and treat their WS as if they were a child to coddle. Those with failed marriages are not bitter, they're just simply stating facts about cheaters. There's a lot of BSs on here who after months and months of taking abuse from their cheater, are STILL talking about how can they save their marriage. How much more are you willing to take? It's a serious question. You can't honestly force your cheater to get with the program.

 

It amazes me that you're convinced that those that recover a marriage are somehow broken...when the people who clearly DIDN'T heal from their own experiences are a different set of posters entirely.

 

THAT, my friend....is denial.

It amazes me that some "betrayed spouses" in denial, are so convinced that those who didn't recover are somehow bitter and are going to be angry for the rest of their lives...and then want to stand up and talk about how cheaters are scum, yet they're still with the person who screwed them over with a smile on their face while their back is turned. Defending the one person who vowed to love them and only them...then broke that vow without a care in the world.

 

Now THAT is denial. The whole definition of it.

[Spark1111]

Not true. It's those who still come here after years talking about their marriages became improved because their spouse had sex with someone else. Or how "reconciliation sex" is the best ever. It's like they're seriously eating everything their cheating spouse feeds them. Talking about how they fantasize about killing the OM/OW and treat their WS as if they were a child to coddle. Those with failed marriages are not bitter, they're just simply stating facts about cheaters. There's a lot of BSs on here who after months and months of taking abuse from their cheater, are STILL talking about how can they save their marriage. How much more are you willing to take? It's a serious question. You can't honestly force your cheater to get with the program.

 

It amazes me that some "betrayed spouses" in denial, are so convinced that those who didn't recover are somehow bitter and are going to be angry for the rest of their lives...and then want to stand up and talk about how cheaters are scum, yet they're still with the person who screwed them over with a smile on their face while their back is turned. Defending the one person who vowed to love them and only them...then broke that vow without a care in the world.

 

Now THAT is denial. The whole definition of it.

 

Hey, if you divorced and were happy about the situation, I'd be happy for you.

 

If you were reconciled and happy, I'd be happy for you.

 

But I think you are unhappy because people don't see it, or live it, or feel it like you do.

 

And for that, I have no advice, retort, support, or guidance.

 

You seem really, really angry. And for that, I am unhappy.

[John Michael Kane]

I wish I had the luxury of denial. Denial would have made many things so much more bearable during reconciliation.

 

There were many times I had a bag packed and contemplated divorce. It wasn't easy for either one of us.

 

You're gently mistaken, ma'am. It wasn't hard for him to cheat.

 

So, if that is what you decided to do, I support you in your decision. I understand it, I really do.

 

Okay...

 

Why are you so incapable of understanding or supporting mine?

 

I'm not incapable of understanding your stance because I understand. I do, because I was in your position also. I even stayed for a few months to calculate my future and what investments I should put my time in. But now that is over, and here are those who are constantly hurting themselves by staying in miserable relationships, and it's downing and hypocritical to state to those who decided to save themselves years of pain and insanity, are eternally bitter.

[John Michael Kane]

Hey, if you divorced and were happy about the situation, I'd be happy for you.

 

If you were reconciled and happy, I'd be happy for you.

 

But I think you are unhappy because people don't see it, or live it, or feel it like you do.

 

^

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Making assumptions because I decided not to settle.

 

And for that, I have no advice, retort, support, or guidance.

 

To be frank, I never asked for it.

 

You seem really, really angry. And for that, I am unhappy.

 

I'm not angry. I will question, is it really YOU with the anger you're trying to push down in the bowels of your subconscious.

[Spark1111]

And yes, reconciliation sex was the best ever.....for us!

 

Kidd has mentioned it twice in this, his very first thread, twice already.

 

It is actually a sign of marital health, a reclaiming, a rebonding....a symptom that a relationship has the POTENTIAL to be restored.

 

I will not apologize for it. Why should I?

[Spark1111]

^

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Making assumptions because I decided not to settle.

 

 

 

To be frank, I never asked for it.

 

 

 

I'm not angry. I will question, is it really YOU with the anger you're trying to push down in the bowels of your subconscious.

 

But who settled? Who decided they were less or wanted or needed less just to stay married?

 

Not me. That is your projection of your attitudes onto my situation.

 

I would never settle for less than the relationship I want or deserve. I don't have to. Neither should you.

 

Some people can truly redeem themselves. If they cannot, there is no reason to stay married to them.

[John Michael Kane]

And yes, reconciliation sex was the best ever.....for us!

 

Nah.

 

Kidd has mentioned it twice in this, his very first thread, twice already.

 

He's confused.

 

It is actually a sign of marital health, a reclaiming, a rebonding....a symptom that a relationship has the POTENTIAL to be restored.

 

It's actually a sign of mental abuse caused by the cheater.

 

I will not apologize for it. Why should I?

 

Never asked for you to apologize, ma'am.

[rafallus]

Great! Good for you! So do you think you'd be the best person to offer advice or support to man who WANTS to attempt reconciliation with his wife?

 

Who has stopped posting here because of the people, like you, who could not or would not do it?

 

...just asking....

 

I wrote in different threads: on their own accord! They want to work out? go ahead! Don't want to - their choice! Actually, I think that whether they work things out or leave was settled before, so if someone wants to try reconcile, they will and noone on forum will. And vice versa.

 

Therefore that whole debate of whether do it or not, seems pointless to me. How to do things when decision was made, it's a different story...

[John Michael Kane]

But who settled? Who decided they were less or wanted or needed less just to stay married?

 

Who do you think? You know the answer.

 

Not me. That is your projection of your attitudes onto my situation.

 

As if your attitude onto my past situation is bears any accuracy.

 

I would never settle for less than the relationship I want or deserve. I don't have to. Neither should you.

 

That's what I've been stating from the beginning.

 

Some people can truly redeem themselves. If they cannot, there is no reason to stay married to them.

 

Sure the marriage license is intact, but beyond that it is destroyed.

[John Michael Kane]

I wasn't so much offended by characterizations of my wife. They are fair statements in most cases based on her actions. But I found myself overly influenced by the convincing, "run, get an attorney now, she's still f..king the other man-type advice." In most cases, they are probably right and trying to save me more time in anguish. But I allowed it to overshadow my own thoughts and they convinced me I couldn't trust my own thoughts either. It was right to influence me to tell the OMW but the paranoia that led me to also also discuss it with her father last night was wrong. I made an emotional decision convinced that she would go ballistic and we'd be done. I was saying goodbye to her family but instead I've severely damaged my chances at reconciliation. I should have calmed down, let things unfold more slowly, and kept my head in the game. Now she has a justified reason to be pissed that won't exactly be fixed easily. The SAA book reinforced the paranoia by implying that almost all EA's return to the A and suddenly (yesterday) I was interpreting every action in the worst possible light. There is a lot of justifiable doom and gloom on here because BSs lose no only their spouse but house, car, kids, family, and sometimes career. But not all situations are the same. Not all cheaters are evil. Some people can realize the error of their ways and make changes. I understand those that would never try (why should you have to?). I've got a lot invested here and while R is nearly impossible, I wanted to see if it's possible. While my WS was trying everything she knew, she doesn't have a guidebook either. I can understand reluctance to just leaving a 21 year career and angst about rigid transparency and reluctance to exposure. She's coming around, out of the fog as they say. But in my paranoia and without any real evidence to the contrary, I sabotaged my own hopes. I can still blame her if I like (I didn't create this situation) but at some point I have to be responsible for my own decisions, too.

 

You are confused and hurt but you have more than enough information to tell that your wife is not in this 100% with you. The complaining, her warped unjustifiable behavior, the continued cheating and deception, it all points to her unwillingness to act like an adult. It is time for you to get the ball rolling and protect yourself and those kids.

[RepairMinded]

I wasn't so much offended by characterizations of my wife. They are fair statements in most cases based on her actions. But I found myself overly influenced by the convincing, "run, get an attorney now, she's still f..king the other man-type advice." In most cases, they are probably right and trying to save me more time in anguish. But I allowed it to overshadow my own thoughts and they convinced me I couldn't trust my own thoughts either. It was right to influence me to tell the OMW but the paranoia that led me to also also discuss it with her father last night was wrong. I made an emotional decision convinced that she would go ballistic and we'd be done. I was saying goodbye to her family but instead I've severely damaged my chances at reconciliation. I should have calmed down, let things unfold more slowly, and kept my head in the game. Now she has a justified reason to be pissed that won't exactly be fixed easily. The SAA book reinforced the paranoia by implying that almost all EA's return to the A and suddenly (yesterday) I was interpreting every action in the worst possible light. There is a lot of justifiable doom and gloom on here because BSs lose no only their spouse but house, car, kids, family, and sometimes career. But not all situations are the same. Not all cheaters are evil. Some people can realize the error of their ways and make changes. I understand those that would never try (why should you have to?). I've got a lot invested here and while R is nearly impossible, I wanted to see if it's possible. While my WS was trying everything she knew, she doesn't have a guidebook either. I can understand reluctance to just leaving a 21 year career and angst about rigid transparency and reluctance to exposure. She's coming around, out of the fog as they say. But in my paranoia and without any real evidence to the contrary, I sabotaged my own hopes. I can still blame her if I like (I didn't create this situation) but at some point I have to be responsible for my own decisions, too.

 

Wow you're really scared of her, aren't you? It actually sounds like you are a hostage in this marriage.

[Kidd]

I specifically asked for "next steps" and therefore, advice. I would like every BS on this thread to cut themselves and every other BS a break. No one (except the potential murderers) comes on here with mal-intent. Your knowledge is power for another BS and your sharing of it is a gift. That giving is something that we all have in common. If we have to label ourselves as more than "betrayed" then even "bitter" or "broken" perspectives bring value to all of us. I appreciate not being ignorant but ultimately I have enoug faith in myself to truly still know my own scenario better than anyone else. I appreciate all of you and hope the best for you. In closing, I just want to support radical honesty as a best practice. I try to make decisions of which I can be proud and that's how I stay healthy. Dryerase...this is directed at you and other WS that try to protect us...I know you don't want to hurt us (and we make it clear that we don't want to be hurt which makes it hard for you to share) but we can handle that you have thoughts of the other man (of course you do) but leaving out the "but I would never do this to you again" part of the honesty then gets let out, too. Tell them everything, show that you respect them enough to let them judge you, and then watch for the results. If you continue to deserve it, you'll get what you deserve. I'm going to be honest with my wife about this thread tonight. And then I'm going to try to delete it.

[Mz. Pixie]

Kidd- I am very proud of you for exposing to OMW. I think your wifes reaction was impressive and shows great promise for you to mend your marriage.

 

I will support you if you want to save your marriage. I truly think you have a good chance.

 

Don't stop posting- just block those that are cruel and not helpful. It's often projection.

[Headspin]

You are confused and hurt but you have more than enough information to tell that your wife is not in this 100% with you. The complaining, her warped unjustifiable behavior, the continued cheating and deception, it all points to her unwillingness to act like an adult. It is time for you to get the ball rolling and protect yourself and those kids.

 

Hey JMK; weak, like all your other posts. it's the same **** over and over. get some counseling.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Headspin

[John Michael Kane]

weak, like all your other posts.

 

Nope.

 

it's the same **** over and over.

Yup so what? My advice always holds. And I don't think repeatedly stating "reconcile" and "go to counseling" with your spouse is in any way fresh.

 

get some counseling.

And this is exactly what I'm referring to. I You didn't have to edit your post, and I know you're probably some other member on here using another account to try and "tell me off." Really sad how far one goes because of what someone stated on the internet.

[RepairMinded]

From what I know from Marriage Builders Kidd has a very good chance to save his marriage because he has a wife that is willing to cooperate despite having ended the affair so recently and still being in contact with OM at work.

 

The affair has not yet "ended." As long as the affair partners remain in contact--in this case, daily contact in the same environment, their job, that allowed the affair to flourish--then the affair is continuing, at least on the emotional level.

 

 

Once the wife stops seeing OM and goes into absolute NC her perspective will improve even more.

We don't know his wife's perspective except that she's dragging her feet about going NC with her affair partner, which is not a good sign. Wives who have mid-life/mid-marriage long term love affairs with men they perceive as "more powerful" and hence "more desirable" than their husbands are NOT good candidates for recovery.

 

This affair sounds like it was the wife's intention to try to use as an exit strategy from the marriage. In her fantasy world there is probably no doubt she was assuming she would get the promotion, she would divorce OP, her OM would divorce his wife, they would get married together and have a nice blended family living happily ever after with their pool parties.

 

 

As of now the wife is still in the afterglow of the affair. Nevertheless, she seems to be responding well.

No, she's still in the "glow" of the affair. She's not responding well at all. The OP now feels guilty/"paranoid", like somehow he did something "wrong," by telling his father in law and posting at Love Shack (which is why he mentioned deleting his thread). He's not paranoid and he did nothing wrong. He's afraid that because of his legitimate responses to her cheating he will somehow be to blame if a divorce results.

 

 

All these feelings are the result of his fear of his wife and her psychological manipulation and blame-shifting. It sounds to me like someone in her family, maybe his wife or her father in law, has actually threatened him or implied a threat of some kind.

 

I don't think there's a good chance of recovery, but if there is, it can't happen if OP remains cowering in fear.

 

 

 

The issue of reconciliation often has to do with the concept of pride in the betrayed husband.

It's not "pride", it's if the husband learns to stand up for his rights as a husband, parent, and human being. That means not being afraid of the wayward spouse's threats or implied threats, and not being afraid of her deciding to initiate separation or divorce in response to the husband's legitimate actions to try to save his marriage.

 

Also, it's trust--the biggest problem is the feeling that the wayward spouse is remorseless, is only grudgingly buying into reconciliation for her immediate convenience, and that it's all just maybe a big head fake, and if the opportunity presents in the future, the wayward spouse will do it again if she thinks she can get away with it.

 

Not being able to reconcile because one realizes that the wife really doesn't love you any longer (which is why she had the affair in the first place), no matter what lip service she tries to give to loving him in the aftermath of discovery, in order to avoid the humiliation an inconvenience of a failed marriage, isn't an issue of "pride." It's just a recognition of reality--why reconcile with someone who doesn't love you anymore, who betrayed you badly, and who you can never trust in the future?

 

You think I'm wrong? Look at Owl's postings. He's seven years out and he still appears to feel that his wife is fully capable of doing it again. In other words that the seven years of recovery MIGHT be a complete deception on her part. I don't see any worry about "pride" being a concern for Owl. I see the very realistic fear that "once a cheater, always a cheater" may be a possibility.

 

 

Some BH are too proud to try to make the marriage work and cannot forgive.

Sorry but in my opinion "forgiveness" by the BH can NOT be a condition for reconciliation to occur. That's not what reconciliation is about. The wayward spouse must be willing to reconcile with no conditions put on it, including that the BH has any obligation to "forgive."

 

Reconciliation--if it is possible--occurs when the wayward spouse has done everything that is necessary to become 100% loving and 100% trustworthy and 100% fully invested in the marriage, and the betrayed spouse is fully reassured that has been accomplished in a credible manner. You will note that "forgiveness" is not in there.

 

The mere expectation by the wayward spouse that the betrayed spouse has any obligation whatsoever to "forgive" as a condition of reconciliation will cause many, if not most, attempts at reconciliation to fail.

 

Reconciliation is all about the wayward spouse re-establishing themselves as a trustworthy 100% committed part of the marriage, and the betrayed spouse accepting that re-commitment as authentic. Forgiveness by the betrayed spouse for the past bad actions has nothing to do with what the wayward spouse needs to do to rehabilitate her/himself. The wayward spouse has to re-craft themself as a person who will not use personal betrayal of loved ones as a life game plan anymore, and they need to do this regardless of whether reconciliation is or is not successful.

 

Forgiveness of the bad actions of the affair, if it comes at all, is a complete gift by the betrayed spouse.

 

Other BHs seem more receptive to forgive and move on and have less false pride.

You just changed "pride" to "false pride" proving that you haven't even thought through whatever point you're trying to make.

 

Recovery from an affair is not about the BH "forgiving" (which implies the bh is taking that step regardless of what if any effective actions to improve themself a wayward spouse has taken). Reconciliation is all about the wayward spouse's ability to re-make themself into a fully trustworthy partner, and the betrayed spouse's willingness to accept the "new" partner.

 

I have to restate that it is possible for a good person to cheat in a marriage and that not all cheaters are repeat offenders.

 

Now you are attributing "false pride" to the wayward spouse--correctly this time I think--because it is only "false pride" that would make a wayward spouse insist that they are still a "good person" despite the cheating they did. People who cheat, repeatedly in their marriage, even if it's with one affair partner multiple times, are not "good" spouses. "I cheated on your 30 times but that doesn't mean I was a bad spouse." Um, oh YES it does. And it's the cheater's false pride, not the BS's "false pride" or real pride, that often proves an impediment to recovery. The cheater just won't/can't admit that their self-image is completely false and hollow. If they can't even admit that they are NOT a "good" person, how can they ever change?

 

 

 

While not all cheaters are repeat offenders, OP's wife is, in the sense of cheating multiple times with her affair partner, and also in the sense that every time she breaks No Contact--which she does every single day she goes into the office--is a re-initiation of the affair, or the possibility of something happening.

 

This is a call that the BH has to make and it also depends on having a wayward wife that is highly cooperative.

It's not just being "cooperative" on the surface. That's just the beginning because "cooperation" can be gamed. But as far as I can tell OP's wife hasn't been very cooperative in a way that will actually lead to reconciliation. She's been cooperative in a way that suits herself. I'm not sure how much that counts for, esp. when it's very clear that OP is afraid of his wife's reaction to his legitimate range of responses to her cheating, such as posting at Love Shack and discussing it with his father in law.

 

There are different views on disclosure, including to relatives, but the decision to disclose to the father in law was not "wrong" and the OP should not be made to feel bad about it or that he should suffer any consequences for it. All he was doing was telling his father in law the truth about the affair. It can be a useful tool to tell relatives because it can help to put family pressure on the wayward spouse to end the affair. In any event the only reason OP is second-guessing himself is because he is afraid of what his wife will do. That doesn't sound "cooperative" to me.

 

 

 

 

Hot reconciliation sex or hysterical bonding is not always an important factor in successful reconciliation and many couples that have jot sex after d-day fail to save the marriage.

The lack of hysterical bonding is a bad sign for reconciliation. It means either betrayed spouse or the wayward spouse is physically or emotionally repulsed. Unless you think sex is not an important part of a relationship, the inability to resume sexual relations after disclosure is a very bad sign. Edited June 23, 2011 by RepairMinded

[RepairMinded]

You are confused and hurt but you have more than enough information to tell that your wife is not in this 100% with you. The complaining, her warped unjustifiable behavior, the continued cheating and deception, it all points to her unwillingness to act like an adult. It is time for you to get the ball rolling and protect yourself and those kids.

 

The wayward spouse in OP's wife's situation has to in my opinion at least say they are willing to immediately go complete NC and quit the job, if the betrayed spouse wishes it, with no recriminations and no reservations--however much hardship this might cause, the wayward spouse must be willing to acknowledge those consequences as a result of the cheating, not as a result of subsequent efforts to try to save the marriage.

 

OP's spouse has not even remotely come close to even giving lip service to the importance of NC with her affair partner.

 

OP believes himself to be "paranoid" (he's not) and that it will be his fault if his wife's "false pride" reaction to being outed as a cheater to her family, is to walk out of the marriage. It won't.

 

And it's HER job to make sure he doesn't blame himself for either her affair or its consequences, not blame shift or allow her relatives to blame shift.

 

NONE of that has happened, and they are several weeks past d day already.

 

Not good signs for recovery in my opinion.

[Spark1111]

...sigh....

 

I wish people would educate themselves to affairs and affair dynamics.

 

They rarely have to do with love.

[Owl]

OK, I don't want to T/J Kidd's thread any further, but I do want to make sure that people understand something about my viewpoint real quick.

 

There seems to be a belief, primarily fostered by JMK, that I live in fear of my wife having another affair.

 

Not at all, for two important reasons to note.

 

First...do I believe she could? Yes. But here's the factor you're not taking into account... I don't believe she's any MORE susceptible to having one than any other person in the world. I don't believe she's any more likely to do so than I am...or than JMK is in his next relationship. What I've learned is that no relationship is immune to the possibility of it happening. Not mine with my wife now, not in a relationship I might have had with someone else...not in ANY relationship.

 

You're taking it like I'm afraid that she's going to do it again. I'm not. I don't spend any kind of time considering it. I'm simply pointing out that infidelity is possible in ANY relationship...no relationship is immune to the possiblity of it happening.

 

Secondly, I've learned a lot about relationships as a result of what we've gone through. I've learned a lot about how to improve communication in our relationship. How to better communicate my wants/needs/expectations, and how better to listen to hers. I've also learned a lot more about how affairs work, and how to safeguard against them as best as we can. So I'm far more at ease in this relationship because of this new knowledge.

 

Third, I've learned a lot about myself after having gone through this. I don't live in any kind of fear of something like this happening again. I've learned a lot about my own strength. I know that I WANT to be in a relationship with her, but I don't NEED to be in one in order to live and be happy. I've got the strength to survive on my own if it were to come down to that...and so if I were to face that potential again, I wouldn't be nearly as devestated as I was the first time around.

 

JMK projects his own fears into everything he sees here on LS.

 

I believe that he never healed as a result of what he went through. When he hit the anger phase of dealing with the situation, he ended the relationship there.

 

He's not been able to release that anger on the woman who betrayed him...so he releases it here on every WS he encounters. They're the surrogate for the person he's still REALLY angry at.

 

And because he was unable to recover his marriage, because he was unable to heal and move on...he projects that onto every situation he sees here. Because HE couldn't heal or recover his marriage...no one can heal or recover their marriage.

 

There's no anger in this post...I feel sorry for him. He really should seek help, because other than providing a place for him to vent his own anger out on others...LS can't do anything for him, and he's still not learned to cope with all the anger and hurt he's still got from what his wife did to him...and his own choice to end the relationship before he could work through the process of healing from it.

[Lisa_H]

Kidd,

 

I hope you see this before you try to get this thread deleted. I am VERY proud of you for investing in your marriage and your family.

 

Surviving infidelity is tough on both sides, I have seen people have stonger and happier marriages after infidelity.

 

Don't give up hope and don't beat yourself up over some mistakes - you and your wife are running on high emotions and it makes it hard to see straight.

 

Keep fighting through, take care of YOURSELF first and foremost! No matter what happens in the end get the help you need to deal with issues so as they are not repeated.

 

I would love to hear an update on how things are going with your family. This thread intrigued me.

 

Wishing you the best!

[RepairMinded]

I specifically asked for "next steps" and therefore, advice.

 

O.K.

 

First you have to stop referring to your reasonable feelings and actions in light of your wife's affair, as "paranoid" or that you are in any way at fault for the consequences of it, which would include her divorcing you simply because you chose to disclose the facts of the affair to family members or on facebook for that matter (not that I'm recommending you post it on facebook, just that it's totally your choice).

 

Your wife is the one who is afraid of disclosure--going back to the notion of "false pride" raised by Pierre, I believe it applies to your wife, not to you--her professional and personal image will likely be seriously damaged by disclosure of her affair. Unfortunately that is likely to be a necessary consequence of her actions, not the disclosure of her actions. The image she has tried to present of herself, as a "good" person, all these years, professionally and personally is simply a false image.

 

Your best chance of avoiding separation or divorce is to be unafraid of it, and to not be willing to accept any blame at all from your wife for her affair or its consequences. You also need to face up to the fact that the majority of women who have affairs such as your wife's are totally "out" of the marriage emotionally speaking and have been "out" of it for years, and most likely are not coming back no matter what you do. And you can't be afraid of this, because it's the reality of the situation.

 

As far as I can tell you were not and are not a bad husband and did nothing at all to deserve this. (Not that cheating is ever justifiable.) But your wife cannot even come up with any of the typical excuses that cheating spouses often try to use to justify their affairs.

 

She's a successful business person and it almost seems like at some point she made a rather cold and calculated decision to trade the old jalopy (you) in for a red sports car. Obviously like most women doing this at some point along the way she must have convinced herself she doesn't love you or she loves you but not "in love" with you to emotionally "justify" what she did. Typically they rewrite the marriage and try to make you the bad guy but it doesn't even seem as if she had any way to do that either.

 

Right now since she is still in daily contact with OM the affair must be regarded as on-going and any seeming reconciliation efforts on her part are not authentically to save the marriage but diversionary efforts while she is scrambling to think of some way to go deep underground and somehow continue the affair.

 

I don't know your wife but what I have just stated is the rule not the exception and there's no reason to think it doesn't apply in your wife's case.

 

There is a reason why all affair authorities, even Marriage Builders, stress that recovery cannot occur until complete NC is established. Only when your spouse is in complete NC and deprived of her affair "fix" will you be able to see what you are really dealing with here, and whether reconciliation is even remotely possible.

 

 

I would like every BS on this thread to cut themselves and every other BS a break. No one (except the potential murderers) comes on here with mal-intent.

 

You need to cut yourself a break and stop referring to yourself as "paranoid." You didn't imagine that your wife cheated on you, she actually did cheat on you. Repeatedly. She is still seeing OM on a daily basis. It's not "paranoia" to be suspicious of her motives and actions, it's common sense.

 

 

 

Your knowledge is power for another BS and your sharing of it is a gift.

 

You're welcome.

 

 

That giving is something that we all have in common. If we have to label ourselves as more than "betrayed" then even "bitter" or "broken" perspectives bring value to all of us.

 

Calling BSs who are hard-core against cheating such as JMKane, "bitter", or "angry," is simply a turn of a phrase used by people--both WS's and BS's--who still "don't quite get it." It's sort of like an insult, it attributes a personality characteristic to someone who is stating a position on cheating, as if John Michael Kane's emotional coloration (assuming he is "bitter" whatever that actually means) has any relevance to the content of his posts. It's a form of name calling which is a deflection from the core issue being discussed.

 

Even if someone is "bitter" about having been cheated on, why is that considered by some to be an "inappropriate" emotional coloration? If someone screws me over and gets away with it--whether in personal life or otherwise--sure why not be "bitter" and "angry" about it?

 

Better to fully acknowledge the negative feelings, the "scars," which remain in the aftermath of having been cheated on, then to pretend they aren't there. Cheating is a horrendous emotional betrayal and shatters lives and families. It's not like the guy at Mickie d's forgot to put the cheese on your cheeseburger. The people who fail to acknowledge that being victimized by a cheating spouse was a life-altering experience are probably--although not always--in some form of "denial", just like JMK says--but those emotions will out, somehow, someway, perhaps unpredictably.

 

Owl is a perfect example. Seven years out and he still does NOT trust his wife. It actually sounds like he remains "hypervigilant" to the possibility of her cheating again, perhaps a form of PTSD. Or maybe something subtle in her behavior is not allowing him to relax. He is very careful the way he phrases his posts--exceedingly careful--apparently because he doesn't want anyone referring to him as harboring any "bitterness" to his spouse. But that's just a word, and dancing around the word doesn't mean the underlying feelings--the scars of the betrayal--aren't there, all the same.

 

 

 

I appreciate not being ignorant but ultimately I have enoug faith in myself to truly still know my own scenario better than anyone else.

 

Careful here kidd. You may know specific factual details better than anyone else but the inference you are implying is that THEREFORE your judgment about what actions you take in response to those specific details is going to be "better" than anyone else's. I don't think that inference is a correct one.

 

The people who keep urgently stressing the importance of "No Contact" are not doing it simply based on their own experience or erroneously because maybe they don't have all the facts of "your" situation. It's generally applicable advice based on broad experience of thousands of people and affair recovery scholars and experts.

 

So don't make the response to cheating something idiosyncratic and depending upon your own judgment of what would be "best." This allows you to continue gaslighting yourself, the same way as you continue to do by not acknowledging that your recovery attempts don't even really begin until complete NC has been established. You are still at "Day Zero" until that happens, not Day 45 or Day 90.

 

You need to re-read the post where you called yourself "paranoid" and realize that referring to yourself that way is an indication that you are just not thinking straight about any of this situation yet.

 

If you are willing to allow continued contact that's your choice but recognize that every day your wife sees the OM or has any contact with him takes you a day further away from any possibility of eventual successful reconciliation.

 

In other words where things stand right now, every day you are moving backwards--towards dissolution of your marriage. Any actions your wife takes, any things she tells you, MUST be assumed to be part of her efforts to continue to deceive you. Because on the whole that's how people in long term love affairs behave in the situation that your wife is currently in. Regardless of any additional irrelevant specific details of your situation which you haven't bothered to actually post about.

 

 

 

 

I appreciate all of you and hope the best for you. In closing, I just want to support radical honesty as a best practice.

 

"Radical honesty" would mean you post all the details of her affair publicly on Facebook, to all of your friends and family, and hers. It would also mean you write a certified letter to the CEO of the company, and the OM's direct supervisor, laying out the affair and what you want done about the situation. If "radical honesty" doesn't mean complete exposure of your wife's affair, to everyone, then I'm not sure what you mean by the term.

 

 

I try to make decisions of which I can be proud and that's how I stay healthy.

 

Basing decision-making on the particular emotions they elicit is not a good method for making decisions, at all. In this I would agree with Pierre. Just because a decision makes you feel proud doesn't mean it's a good decision. Your feeling of pride maybe mistaken or misplaced or a self-justification (Pierre's point I think).

 

You need to make your decisions based on a logical analysis of what you are trying to accomplish--your goals--and whether the decision-making furthers the goal.

 

If all you care about is maintaining a feeling of "pride" then you are not capable of "radical honesty." I assure you if you are "radically honest" about your wife's affair you won't feel any "pride" except maybe in the totally abstract sense of being proud you were so honest. More likely you will just feel totally humiliated because in outing your wife as a cheater, you also out yourself as a cuckold. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't out her.

 

 

Dryerase...this is directed at you and other WS that try to protect us...

 

They're not trying to protect their BSs, that's simply the rationalization WSs use to continue to lie and deceive their spouses. By buying into that rationalization you are implying that you will accept some continued level of dishonesty by your own WS under the justification that she was doing it "for Kidd's own good."

 

Do you see the complete inconsistency between claiming to be an advocate of "radical honesty" yet in the very next breath, falsely attributing noble motives to a WS's continued dishonesty?

 

"Radical honesty" doesn't mean "I'll be honest unless I think there is a self-justifying reason to be dishonest." Does it?

 

 

 

I know you don't want to hurt us (and we make it clear that we don't want to be hurt which makes it hard for you to share)

 

Your need to attribute noble motives to WSs strikes me as your anticipation that your own WS is still not being fully honest with you, and you know that, but don't want to hold her fully accountable should D Day #2 occur.

 

Remember: If the WS did not want to hurt their BS, they wouldn't have cheated in the first place. So "not wanting to hurt the BS" must be a totally invalid justification for continuing to lie to the BS. It's a simple matter of applying basic logic. What's interesting here kidd is that you are desperate to buy into this kind of rationalization, obviously on behalf of your own WS.

 

 

but we can handle that you have thoughts of the other man (of course you do) but leaving out the "but I would never do this to you again" part of the honesty then gets let out, too.

 

It gets left out because it's not even true. They're not continuing to lie as a means of not hurting the BS; they're continuing to lie to protect themselves and to continue the affair. So obviously they're quite capable of "doing it again" because by continuing their lying their still actively "doing it." They've never stopped. (Just like your wife in that she has never ended contact with her OM.)

 

 

Tell them everything, show that you respect them enough to let them judge you, and then watch for the results. If you continue to deserve it, you'll get what you deserve. I'm going to be honest with my wife about this thread tonight. And then I'm going to try to delete it.

 

I would print out the entire thread and let your wife read it on her own, then discuss it with her.

 

But I sure wouldn't delete it. There's no reason to, other than to eradicate knowledge of her affair from the public sphere (although obviously anonymous here). Such concealment is not consistent with "radical honesty."

[RepairMinded]

I have to say you make good points, but perhaps Kidd is in a better position than we are to judge the intentions of his wife.

 

Theoretically if he could be totally logical about things and have the ability to psychologically remove himself from the middle of it, you are correct.

 

In actuality his posts are in some ways blatantly self-contradictory--which he doesn't seem to realize-- and therefore indicate he is actually not in the best position since he has no distance or perspective.

 

He's right in the thick of it and in this sense is just like the emergency room accident victim who has just been wheeled in on a crash cart and is having a heart attack. We don't let ER patients self diagnose or self treat, with very good reason. They can possibly relate some of the facts and circumstances of the incident that caused their trauma but in an inherently subjective and distorted manner.

 

This is precisely why many affair recovery authorities often counsel victims of betrayal not to make any final decisions about things like divorce or reconciliation for at least six months after D Day. Not because an immediate divorce might not be warranted--it's just that the BS is in such turmoil that it takes considerable time just for them to get some of their bearings and objectivity back.

 

 

 

The most worrisome point you make is that the wayward spouse may think OM is the better man due to the fact that he is the boss and probably earns more. Woman are naturally attracted to power. When my ex-wife wanted to save the marriage her OM was a loser and I could see her motivation to dump OM and go NC. But, I always wondered if she would have acted differently with an OM that she perceived to be better than myself.

 

Kidd's situation--a married woman having a work affair with a boss or someone she perceives as more powerful than herself, or than her husband--is a very common scenario and allows us to try to generalize despite not knowing all of kidd's specific details.

 

 

 

Hmmmmm-------------------If the wayward wife envisioned OM getting a divorce she would actually welcome the d-day in OM's house. This opens the door for her. Time will tell.

 

This is very emotional stuff and kidd's wife didn't necessarily actually have a plan laid out by which mutual divorces and re-marriage of the affair partners would actually occur. I am saying that affairs occur largely in la la fantasy land and part of that fantasy world is what might happen "someday," even if "someday" never occurs.

 

This is the whole significance of the "pool party" incident. They were "playing at" being a "blended family." This is the kind of thing affair partners do which leads to the conclusion that a lot of this behavior is fantasy-based.

 

The practical reality of things is that quite often the female married affair partner might actually harbor this kind of fantasy as an actual aspiration, whereas the OM just views his affair partner as a diversion.